Say Anything Blog

She seems to have good taste when it comes to footwear.
http://www.shoeblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/12/natalie-portman-shoes-te-casan.jpg

She seems to have good taste when it comes to footwear.

Those are “vegan” shoes. $265.00 a pair. Profits go to charity, according to Walter Scott.

A troll is someone who only wants to stir up trouble, not have an honest debate.  Some signs that a poster is a troll:
* Dodges questions from other posters * Refuses to give sources
* When one of its arguments is shown to be false, either ignores the proof or moves the goalposts.  Heh. (From the LGF faq)

Those are “vegan” shoes.

So that’s what the kids are calling CFM pumps these days! Go figure!

"vegan” in that there is no leather in them. ("Animal rights”, don’tcha know?)

A troll is someone who only wants to stir up trouble, not have an honest debate.  Some signs that a poster is a troll:
* Dodges questions from other posters * Refuses to give sources
* When one of its arguments is shown to be false, either ignores the proof or moves the goalposts.  Heh. (From the LGF faq)

Rob,

When it comes to art and “the system” it isn’t as clear cut as you layed out.

But what great art came as a result of the Soviet Union?

Solzhenitsyn, Esenin, Ahmatova, Bulgakov, Nabakov… just to name a few. All had conflict with the Soviet system, but the troubles gave them something to write about. Look at the banality of today’s literature. Slice of life narrative has replaced the novel of ideas. Or as Rushdie once put it, artists have grown afraid to take a big bite out of the world.

While I’m 100% capitalist in all other respects, I do have my ambivalence when it comes to the arts. Pure capitalism seems to only to have American Idol, day and night, on the horizon as far as the arts are concerned.

“Behind Communism, Fascism, behind all occupations and invasions lurks a more basic, pervasive evil… a parade of people marching by with raised fists and shouting identical syllables in unision.” - Milan Kundera

I’d appreciate it if y’all quit criticizing my girlfriend.

My word ... doe we have no honest men to vote for?

Well, first, I’m not nearly as cynical about modern literature and art as you are.  When it comes to those things, everyone seems to be a curmudgeon.  What was done in the past is always better, no?

Plus, not all popular art is bad art.  Some of my favorite bands - Led Zeppelin, The White Stripes, Johnny Cash - are very popular.  But just because their music has mass appeal doesn’t mean they aren’t good.

Though a lot of people seem to think that unless an artist is obscure their not good.

But my point wasn’t that capitalism itself creates good art, but rather that a capitalist environment frees artists to be themselves.

After all, while America’s record isn’t spotless, we generally aren’t putting people in jail for writing a certain song or book.  Natalie Portman isn’t put in jail for doing a nude scene, as that Chinese actor I linked to in the post was.

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

But my point wasn’t that capitalism itself creates good art, but rather that a capitalist environment frees artists to be themselves.

I agree with this completely. I just don’t think that the relationship between capitalism and art is as clear cut as when you asked, “But what great art came [from communist regimes].”

I agree that much more art has come from capitalist systems, but I disagree with the “great” part. I love all those bands that you mentioned, but here’s a little point on that one:

Led Zeppelin was representative of pre-commercialized rock. Most critics (particularly Lester Bangs) agree that rock died after that, it “became an industry of cool.”

The White Stripes are part of a counter-cultural reaction to the commercialization of rock known as “punk rock”.

I mean, you made a good point. More art is produced when artists are free and are rewarded for producing it. But you also risk creating an industry of art, which truly does have an affect on quality: the other day I was covering an art auction where 3 fist-sized rocks on a pedestal sold for $6,000. So yea, I’d say that the relationship between art and a “good free” system isn’t necessarily positive.

There is nothing beautiful about perfection without a flawed backdrop to bring it out.

“Behind Communism, Fascism, behind all occupations and invasions lurks a more basic, pervasive evil… a parade of people marching by with raised fists and shouting identical syllables in unision.” - Milan Kundera

I think you’re confusing my point.  Yes, more art is created in free societies.  But quantity isn’t necessarily quality.

I’d argue that artists in oppressive societies created their art despite the government, and that there is less “chaff” mixed in with the “wheat” in art coming from oppressive societies is probably a symptom of only the most dedicated artists being willing to fight the system.

By the way, arguing that the White Stripes aren’t commercialized is a little silly.  They seem to be selling plenty of t-shirts and albums.  And saying that rock died after Led Zeppelin seems to be more of that curmudgeonly “the old days were the best days” nonsense.

Just because something is new doesn’t mean it’s not good.

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

Oh, I wasn’t saying all that stuff. But you’re confusing the value of the Stripes’ music with the reason they composed that music in the first place. Punk is a countercultural movement in rock to get away from its commercialized points (more grunge, less orchestra, etc...)—the fact that it has become popular doesn’t change why it was done in the first place (Nirvana never expected to get rich, and some punk bands continue to keep low-key despite their popularity). But to continue along that line, new punk is commercialized (in the sense that the artists started playing it purely to make money) and it tends to suck. Examples of bad punk bands that came after the White Stripes made punk lucrative again: 311, Fallout Boy, etc…

Anyway. You’re right, quantity isn’t quality. And whether or not I’m being curmudgeonly about today’s art lacking in quality compared to yesterdays is a discussion for a different forum (I’ll be glad to have it if you like—I have some theories on that). But I didn’t say that rock is dead… Lester Bangs did

“Behind Communism, Fascism, behind all occupations and invasions lurks a more basic, pervasive evil… a parade of people marching by with raised fists and shouting identical syllables in unision.” - Milan Kundera

Examples of bad punk bands that came after the White Stripes made punk lucrative again: 311, Fallout Boy, etc…

Not to be a music snob, but 311 came well before the White Stripes. They’ve been around since 1989 and have had commerical success since the early-to-mid nineties. Also, while they have some “punk” undertones to their songs, I wouldn’t exactly put them in that genre. But I agree with you that, along with Fall Out Boy, they aren’t very good.

I think that compared with yesterday, there aren’t as many epic bands. The kinds like Zepp who were bigger than life and churned out 5-star albums back-to-back. However, there are still a lot of talented musicians who maybe have one or two absolutely amazing albums during their careers. With the large quantities of albums being produced, you really need to look hard to find gems, but they’re plenty out there.