Say Anything Blog

Hi Rob!
Found your page on Technorati since we were both blogging the same news story.  I agree with your sentiments about parental responsibility, however, I have a different take-

This is merely a question of liability. And MySpace is plenty liable. In court, a judge will determine whether or not, after MySpace became aware that sexual predators were using the site to stalk children, did MySpace do everything it could to prevent harm to children?

I say the answer is no. NewsCorp, the owner of Myspace, needed to take Myspace to a for-pay site as soon as they purchased the company. With a credit card purchase for a MySpace account, there would be no question regarding identity of a profile holder, verification of adulthood, or in the case of parents, implied permission for a child to use the site. But NewsCorp instead wanted to keep the popularity of the site and prevent its users from migrating to a competing free site.

And the cost of that competition was sexual assault and in many cases, death. Lawyers would call that negligence.

MySpace can keep spending money on press releases touting the latest ultra-lightweight verification software like Zephyr, but until they go to a for-pay service and proactively police their users for service violations, they cannot claim that they did all they could to prevent harm to children.

...did MySpace do everything it could to prevent harm to children?

It’s not their job.

Myspace is used by many adults to hook up with sexual partners. Are you now going to argue that Myspace should be making sure that those people don’t have venereal diseases?

NewsCorp, the owner of Myspace, needed to take Myspace to a for-pay site as soon as they purchased the company. With a credit card purchase for a MySpace account, there would be no question regarding identity of a profile holder, verification of adulthood, or in the case of parents, implied permission for a child to use the site.

Absolutely not. First of all, it’s not your place to tell a free website to start charging. Secondly, it wouldn’t stop the problem. Curtail? Most likely. But it wouldn’t stop it.

But NewsCorp instead wanted to keep the popularity of the site and prevent its users from migrating to a competing free site.

This should be clue as to how ridiculous your proposal is.

And the cost of that competition was sexual assault and in many cases, death. Lawyers would call that negligence.

Who cares what a lawyer would argue? They’re masters at shuffling blame onto innocent parties, so this argument of yours is hardly convincing.

MySpace can keep spending money on press releases touting the latest ultra-lightweight verification software like Zephyr, but until they go to a for-pay service and proactively police their users for service violations, they cannot claim that they did all they could to prevent harm to children.

And until you start spending your own time and money policing Myspace for these violations, you can’t claim anything either.

But it’s not your responsibility, you say?

This is not about responsibility.  This is about liability.  And there is no question whether or not this case will go forward because it will.  Myspace, Livejournal, Facebook and others will have their liability examined as to how they make efforts to protect children from predators.

These sites do not have to stop online predators, just put in enough safeguards to prove that they have done what is reasonable to protect children.  My assertion is that they have done very little in the way of real protection, especially given how easy it would be to curtail online predatory behavior by moving to a pay service and recording credit card information from members.

Think of it like your inground pool.  In most states you have to have a fence around it to provide reasonable protection against small children wandering onto the property and drowning.  If you fail to take reasonable steps and a child drowns, you are liable for that death.  If a child is big enough to scale the fence and drowns anyways, you are off the hook.

Myspace knows its service is being abused by online predators.  The question is, have they instituted reasonable safeguards to protect against it?

I think myspace should sue parents for allowing their children to get on the internet without monitoring what they do.

What’s going to happen to US industry when the global warming extremists like John McCain double the price of electricity?  I would think all these factories will close and set up in countries where they aren’t scared of technology.

Think of it like your inground pool.  In most states you have to have a fence around it to provide reasonable protection against small children wandering onto the property and drowning.  If you fail to take reasonable steps and a child drowns, you are liable for that death.

But why should that be so?

What if I’m in the middle of building a new shed and your kid wanders into the back hard and hurts himself with my saw.  Why am I liable when you let your kid wander into my yard?

Same goes for myspace.  Any responsible parent would be cognizant of the pitfalls present in a site like that and would take precautions before allowing their child onto the site.

It is not the responsibility of these social websites to protect your kids.  You protect them.

When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

But welcome to Say Anything, Belch.  I think you’ll like it hear.  Stick around and comment on some of the posts.  Maybe start a reader blog (you can even cross-post from your current blog if you want).

We have all sorts of fun.

When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

BelchSpeak said, This is not about responsibility.  This is about liability.

One can have responsibility without liability, but one can’t have liability without responsibility. Liability is responsibility.

Myspace, Livejournal, Facebook and others will have their liability examined as to how they make efforts to protect children from predators.

Hence, their responsibility.

My assertion is that they have done very little in the way of real protection, especially given how easy it would be to curtail online predatory behavior by moving to a pay service and recording credit card information from members.

No. You do that and the kids scatter to where it will be free. What have you solved then? Nothing.

Not only that, but you’re dictating in an area you have no business dictating in.

Myspace knows its service is being abused by online predators.  The question is, have they instituted reasonable safeguards to protect against it?

How about we all register with the government then? That’s the road you’re taking us down with this kind of logic. After all, wouldn’t it be easier to prevent such things if we were all registered and monitored? Until the government institutes a registration and tracking system, they cannot claim that they did all they could to prevent harm to children.

Nice slippery slope you want to go down.

why just myspace?  Generally those folks hook up via email or an instant messenger service too.  They’re as liable as myspace.

Plus the whole internet thing, without that set of tubes this thing wouldn’t be taking place.  The “internet” and Algore are responsible too.

If they talk on the phone prior to the assault the phone company must pay.  They should have to monitor all phone calls.

Don’t they usually arrange to meet at a mall or something like that?  If so the mall operator is responsible.

If the bad guys uses a weapon then of course the company that made the weapon is to blame.  (Would it count as a plus if the intended victim was armed and able to defend herself).

Most all crimes were facilitated by the bad guy driving in a car.  There you’ve got big automobile, big oil and big roads to blame.

I don’t expect you to get it Belch, but my examples are no less absurd than yours.

What’s going to happen to US industry when the global warming extremists like John McCain double the price of electricity?  I would think all these factories will close and set up in countries where they aren’t scared of technology.

My[WasteOf]Space[AndTime] is doomed to become just another revenue source for someone like Napster.

All these toys are great when it’s just a bunch of nerds fooling around but when someone decides they want to make money all the fun is sucked out of it.

you also come across a few really creepy myspace pages like this one.

What’s going to happen to US industry when the global warming extremists like John McCain double the price of electricity?  I would think all these factories will close and set up in countries where they aren’t scared of technology.

Whistler quit stalking me you sick f**k.

these toys are great when it’s just a bunch of nerds fooling around

That’s ok freep, we’re not laughing with you, we’re laughing at you.

What’s going to happen to US industry when the global warming extremists like John McCain double the price of electricity?  I would think all these factories will close and set up in countries where they aren’t scared of technology.

freerepublicans.com said, My[WasteOf]Space[AndTime]

Speak for yourself. Because of myspace I have: 1. reconnected a bunch of old partykidd and DJ friends that have resulted in a couple of parties and one DJ friend moving back to Detroit from NY; 2. hooked up with new party friends in my area; 3. reconnected with three people I last talked to 15 years ago; 4. hooked up with a couple of girls; 5. reconnected with old high school friends; 6. many more connections too numerous to mention.

It is not a waste of space nor time for me. And I’m not even one who spends that much time at the site.

I think he was speaking for himself.

What’s going to happen to US industry when the global warming extremists like John McCain double the price of electricity?  I would think all these factories will close and set up in countries where they aren’t scared of technology.

This issue deals with a consumer product made by an American company.  In the real world, these corporations must ensure that their products are safe for consumption.

The fact that MySpace is a digital product does not grant it exclusive rights that brick and mortar companies do not have, such as immunity from product liability.  Or the responsibility to ensure that its product does not cause injury.

There is very little difference here between MySpace not making sure its product is used safely and Huffy making a bicycle whose brakes don’t work.  Or a company making a baby crib that injures a baby. 

MySpace has admitted that it wants to ensure a safe consumer product.  It does so by publishing a privacy statement and it has outlined ways to combat online predators.  But these measures have been weak and ineffective, and a reckoning is coming from customers who have been injured by their product.

I predict that sites such as Myspace will have to go to a pay system or shut down.  Not a slippery slope- just corporate law fellas.

It should be noted here that, while monitoring of computer usage is good, these crimes could have been stopped by alert parents asking their daughters “where are you going tonight?” It’s not like they were able to drive to a pick-up point or whatever.

In other words, there are lots of points where the parents could have protected their children. 

And MySpace?  I’m with Rob here, though; an awful lot of the Internet, like this fine establishment, is free, and I don’t necessarily want to have the government (or Port Investigations) knowing everything about me.  (just kidding, Rob--I know doing that would not exactly help your career)

For the record, they already do have a reasonably good privacy policy--the perverts here had to work to get contact information, to put it mildly.  The one thing that I see lacking (or didn’t see) was a warning to users that the careless release of information could make it possible for people to take advantage of them.  However, “Bloogle” doesn’t have this, either. 

Maybe the lawyers will start to insist on this, but I don’t know that it’ll win a lawsuit.

BelchSpeak said, In the real world, these corporations must ensure that their products are safe for consumption.

In actuality, the companies must ensure that their products are safe for the stupidest people. They must cater to the lowest common denominator, lest some nanny-stater and a lawyer come after them with an expensive lawsuit.

There is very little difference here between MySpace not making sure its product is used safely and Huffy making a bicycle whose brakes don’t work.

There is a world of difference. You are comparing the use/misuse of a product with product deficiencies. They don’t even compare.

But these measures have been weak and ineffective, and a reckoning is coming from customers who have been injured by their product.

The “reckoning” is going to come from those who have misused their product and injured themselves.

I predict that sites such as Myspace will have to go to a pay system or shut down.

Great. So now they’ll relocate overseas to countries that aren’t as ridiculous when it comes to applying personal responsibility.

What have you solved here? Nothing.

Not a slippery slope- just corporate law fellas.

No, it’s a slippery slope, and one that was amply illustrated by The Whistler. I notice that you don’t address such arguments.

The product was completely safe up until the idiots went out of their houses to meet the perverts.

What’s going to happen to US industry when the global warming extremists like John McCain double the price of electricity?  I would think all these factories will close and set up in countries where they aren’t scared of technology.

The product was completely safe up until the idiots went out of their houses to meet the perverts.

Which, as we know, is not the responsibility of the parties actually engaging in such behavior, it’s MySpace’s fault.

Just like the phone company is responsible for all of the crime that is talked about on their networks. Right BelchSpeak? Go ahead and explain now that the phone companies are culpable because they don’t have an age verification system. We want to see you continue your ridiculousness.

I plan to one up these people and just sue windows and mac for making hom computers, or sysco for making switches, or my isp for providing bandwidth or the element silicon for conduncting electricity.

Hastings v. Dis Tran Products…

The District Court, Edwin F. Hunter, Jr., J., held that under Louisiana law, contributory negligence consisting merely in a failure to discover a defect or to guard against the possibility of its existence or in failing to use ordinary care for one’s own safety is not a defense; the form of contributory negligence which consists in voluntarily and unreasonably proceeding to encounter a known danger, which commonly passes under the name of assumption of risk, is a defense, i.e., if the user discovers the defect and nevertheless proceeds unreasonably to make use of the product and is injured thereby, he is barred from recovery;

sorry for the huge quote, and granted this is only louisiana law, and it’s a forever-ago case… but it demonstrates the real issue here, which is contributory negligence. even if myspace was negligent, certainly the plaintiffs were guilty of contributory negligence, which as noted above, (at least in louisana law… whaddya want, i’m in a hurry...) IS a defense.

what part of that definition of contributory negligence doesn’t apply here?

anyone?

I guess someone in all this should mention that in these lawsuits fault doesn’t really matter to the plaintiff’s attorney.  What matters is deep pockets.

If you’re involved in any sort of way with something bad like an accident or a crime, no matter how small or innocent your involvement is, you’ll be the target of a lawsuit if you’re a rich company or individual.

I once knew an attorney who had a case where a woman who was hit by a drunk driver was suing for damages.  She wasn’t suing the drunk driver who actually hit her, though, because he didn’t have a pot to piss in.  She was suing the guy in the Lexus who stopped to help and allegedly aggravated her injuries by pulling her from her car.

Disgusting stuff, though this was a long time ago and I think there are now so-called “good samaritan” laws that shield well-meaning by-standers from this sort of civil liability.

When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

jdubious - good point.

I’m thinking about a lawsuit against BelchSpeak and these four families. It makes more sense than what they have proposed.

The liability lies solely with them for teaching children that they don’t have to take responsibility for their actions in life. This is merely a question of liability. And BelchSpeak and the families are plenty liable.

The cost of this lack of responsibility teaching was sexual assault and in many cases, death. Lawyers would call that negligence.

BelchSpeak and the four families know that this lack of responsibility is being abused by online predators.  The question is, have they instituted reasonable safeguards to protect against it?

Did BelchSpeak and the four families do everything it could to prevent harm to children? No, they did not. A reckoning is coming, and it isn’t going to be pretty. The sad part is, more children will end up molested and killed because BelchSpeak and these four families don’t have enough common sense to teach kids something called personal responsibility.

If Myspace is smart, they’ll cite the law jdubious posted (showing precedent) and countersue for the reasons I just laid out above.

Oh, that’s bad. I’ve read a myspace blog too that says exactly like that. But we cannot put all the blame to Myspace, can we? As parents, or for all parents here, it is our duty too to watch out for our kids and do every good measure that we can to ensure that they’re always safe and far away from these sexual predators.

Second, Myspace is just an avenue, but it never has full control on what happens after these people sign out of Myspace or even when they communicate in Myspace. Honestly, no matter how pitiful the situation could be, the lawsuit is illogical.

I would just like to say that the parents act like myspace is their children’s babysitter. If parent would take responsibility and stop trying to blame everyone else for their inability to monitor their children then most of things that go on with their children would not happen. There are all kind of programs that are available to monitor there children and everything they write and more online. If parents want to let their children use the computer then they as parents need to be computer literate so they can know how to watch over their children they birthed into this world. Parents stop saying oh my child is a good kid and stress the importance of their privacy online and stop blaming the schools and internet for your short coming and teachings as parents. I hope and pray that these parents do not win their lawsuit against Myspace. They need to sue themselves, and made to go to a class on parenting, but I guess if you tell them that they will think everyone else is crazy except them. PLEASE RESPOND BACK TO MY COMMENT, I WOULD LOVE TO HEAR WHAT THESE PARENTS HAVE TO SAY…

My children are yet too young to get in trouble on the internet.

They play games but do not surf or email.

Even so I’ve set up the computer so that it’s not in a private area of the house.  I’m adding in a second computer to keep the wife and kids from fighting over the one.  But I’m only doing that because I figured out another acceptable area for the computer.

As soon as they begin surfing I’ll invest in a monitoring program.

I don’t have illusions that I wouldn’t have been drawn to the bad sites if the internet existed back when I was a teen.

What’s going to happen to US industry when the global warming extremists like John McCain double the price of electricity?  I would think all these factories will close and set up in countries where they aren’t scared of technology.