Say Anything Blog

Likwid’s right, it doesn’t make us look as wacko as the terrorists,

Ah, yes, it’s a matter of scale.

If we want to defeat Islamic extremism we must employ the aid of the moderate Muslims, who must become more active in expelling the extremists from their ranks.

Moderate Muslims won’t kill and issue Fatwas because their “holy book” was pissed on.  This is simply not an issue to any moderate Muslim that may exist.

Trashing one of the symbols of Islam isn’t going to get those people on our side.

I’m at that point now where if they are not on our side against terrorism after all that has happened already, then piss on them.  They’re the ones with something to prove.

Moderate Muslims won’t kill and issue Fatwas because their “holy book” was pissed on.

Probably not, but tearing up their holy book isn’t going to make them happy either.

I’m at that point now where if they are not on our side against terrorism after all that has happened already, then piss on them.

I understand where that comes from, but I still don’t see where tearing up a Koran (or shooting up, in this instance) does anybody any good.  Christians here wouldn’t like to see this sort of thing done to a bible.  The average American wouldn’t like to see this sort of thing done to our flag.  We aren’t going to riot over it, but its not going to engender our good will either.

We need to work together to defeat terrorism.  This flies in the face of that.

When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

modern instances said, This kind of thing, along with threatening to blow up Mecca, make us look as wacko as the terrorists.

What!??  Pissing on and shooting up a Koran makes us “look as wacko” as those who kill over an allegation of a flushed Koran?!!  What’s wrong with your morals?

Right on, Rob.  This kind of thing, along with threatening to blow up Mecca, make us look as wacko as the terrorists.

Oh, and I love how the banner ad is for the Muslim Matrimonial Sevice!

I hope you’re just filling up your quota of immflammatory posts cause this one is morally offensive and tactically dumb. It might make you feel better to see the piss and shooting show but when all is said and done, what have you accomplished? Nothing in practical terms and a little closer down the path towards barbarism...which is what we’re supposed to be against.

The people responsible for issuing this fatwa are pigs, no doubt, but I don’t see where trashing the Koran gets us anywhere.  If we want to defeat Islamic extremism we must employ the aid of the moderate Muslims, who must become more active in expelling the extremists from their ranks.  Trashing one of the symbols of Islam isn’t going to get those people on our side.

When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

Likwid’s right, it doesn’t make us look as wacko as the terrorists, but it isn’t helping to recruit moderate Muslims to our cause either.

When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

modern instances wrote, Ah, yes, it’s a matter of scale.

One is pissing on and shooting up an inanimate object.  The other is chopping off your head.  Ah, yes, just a simple matter of scale...to a moral relativist.

Watch out likwidshoe! I smooshed a piece of wonder bread into the shape of your head and set it on fire!!!! I wish death upon you!!!!! I have a hard time taking you seriously on this matter...you seem smarter than this. If nothing else, you’re demonstrating your own adherence to doctrine over common sense.

Caqrl B. said, I wouldn’t be vs. anybody in the first place.

Said the infidel.  Wake up Caqrl.

Sphagnum wrote, Starting a Holy War is not in our best interests.

“Start”?  You’re not paying attention.  It has already started.  Islam has declared war on Western civilization.  They have made it clear and in no uncertain terms.

However, you cannot expect to do anything more than make the problem worse by intentionally inflaming them…

Egh. Piss on that.  I often see examples of the symbols Christianity shit upon and the symbols of America shit upon and I’ve yet to see an “inflaming” on the par of riots and beheadings.

Pissing on the holey Koran only alerts us to the radicals out there and serves to paint targets among those who issue death threats.

Piss on the Koran until they get desensitized to it and no longer get “inflamed” to the point of riots, murder, and mayhem.

This guy is looking for reaction...what did he expect, a pat on the back? His intentions were hateful and so they were returned. Lame publicity is all it amounts to amongst anybody who has their head screwed on straight. He just looks like a dork in my book...he still had to plunk out ten bucks or whatever at barnes and noble to buy the dang thang.

The Koran as a terror manual?

C’mon now Liwid.  The Koran is no more of a terror manual than the Bible is.  Both have obscure and mystical passages (as well as simply barbaric passages) that have been used by fanatics to justify atrocities for centuries.

When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

read your own initial post likwidshoe: it’s full of generalizations and angst at least, stereotyping and hate at most. You further to support inviting a reactive attitude at least, instigate physical confrontation at most. Over religion? What century is this? If it’s bullshit, don’t take part and shut up.

Starting a Holy War is not in our best interests.  We need not bend over backwards to appease Muslims, quite the opposite.  They should be bending over backwards showing their love of this country (the one’s living here I mean).  However, you cannot expect to do anything more than make the problem worse by intentionally inflaming them…

...making comparative statements “me vs. some other faction of culture/religion” is moot in this matter; I wouldn’t be vs. anybody in the first place.

What Sphagnum said…

When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

The Koran is no more of a terror manual than the Bible is

Sorry, Rob, but I have to call BS on that one… There is nothing in the Bible that you can point to that calls on us to kill non believers.  Sure, you can point so some pretty horrific HISTORICAL stuff in the Bible, but that’s all they are is historical actions taken by peoples of the past.  Christians are called to Love your neighbor, not kill him.  “Jihad”, however, is enough to prove that there is at least some of that in the Koran…

Islam is a much more violent religion than Christianity

Caqrl B. wrote, Watch out likwidshoe! I smooshed a piece of wonder bread into the shape of your head and set it on fire!!!! I wish death upon you!!!!!

That’s not an apt comparison Caqrl.  It would make more sense if you were telling this to a Muslim because he is the one who acts in this manner.  I’m just going to laugh. (I hope you took a picture!)

If nothing else, you’re demonstrating your own adherence to doctrine over common sense.

How?  Because I say to hell with it?  If these animals are going to riot and kill based upon something so stupid, do it more and more until we wipe them out?  You usually fiercely defend this kind of action.

“Start”? You’re not paying attention. It has already started. Islam has declared war on Western civilization. They have made it clear and in no uncertain terms.

Oh, you’re right. We’re not starting, bad choice of words. But if we continue to play this as a continued holy war, it will only prolong it.  We are sending a message to billions of muslims worldwide that we are NOT at war with them all.... just the ones who want to kill us.  Why would we want to intentionally piss off the ones that AREN’T currently trying to kill us?

...sounds like backpedaling likwidshoe. Are you serious about that last sentence? what the fudge? it’s a good thing to hatefully desecrate someone’s religion if your intentions are to wring out the hate? painting targets; NICE! you can’t be serious now. You’re a proud american...great...if you feel threatened or insecure about it, check your head.

Sphagnum wrote, But if we continue to play this as a continued holy war...

We have no choice.

We are sending a message to billions of muslims worldwide that we are NOT at war with them all…. just the ones who want to kill us.

And if they riot in the streets like 6th century animals because of an unverified account of a flushed Koran, we WILL be at war with them.  If they issue death threats and terrorize a free citizen because said citizen shot up and pissed on a book he owned, we WILL be at war with them.

Why would we want to intentionally piss off the ones that AREN’T currently trying to kill us?

Here’s how I look at it: piss on a Koran.  You’ll find out who the bad guys are real quick.  If they are so flaky as to be shaken up so much that they would kill for a stupid massively printed book, then they were loose cannons to begin with and need to be taken out.

MikeAdamson said, I hope you’re just filling up your quota of immflammatory posts cause this one is morally offensive and tactically dumb.

“Morally offensive”?  What is so “morally offensive” about shooting up and pissing on a terrorist manual?  Good grief.

It may be tactically dumb.  That one is certainly debateable.  We may actually piss off those nonexistant “moderate Muslims” who are coming over to our side any minute now.  Aaaannnnyyy minute now....yeah....

Nothing in practical terms and a little closer down the path towards barbarism…which is what we’re supposed to be against.

Watch yourself.  Seems you’re falling over yourself to defend the holey book.

Carql B. wrote, This guy is looking for reaction…what did he expect, a pat on the back?

He expected reaction.

His intentions were hateful and so they were returned.

Piss on a book = death threats.  Yeah.  One and the same Carql.

Rob wrote, C’mon now Liwid. The Koran is no more of a terror manual than the Bible is.

Is that what you thought when you read the Koran Rob?

I’ve never read the Koran, but I’ve read a lot about the Koran.  Enough for me to believe that the parallels I’ve drawn are accurate.

When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

If it’s bullshit, don’t take part and shut up.

Sure.  I’ll stop paying taxes, America will pull out of the war, and the Muslims will just leave me alone.

Nice dreamworld, but it is not reality.

The war was declared on us Caqrl.  Not the other way around.

Got muslims pickin at yer feet do ya? you feel insecure and threatened...what a way to spend your day.

I don’t quite understand your Lasse Faire attitude, Carl.  Are you saying we don’t need to be concerned at all in our day to day lives with terrorism?  Are you saying that we should not be vigillent?  Am I just setting up a strawman to beat down or are you incredibly dumb?

Got muslims pickin at yer feet do ya?

We both do Carl.  It’s only that one of us is willing to admit it.

you feel insecure and threatened…what a way to spend your day.

Why would you assume that?  You don’t know me.  I merely recognize the threat of Islamofascism.  I am threatened by it in some capacity, but that hardly translates into feeling “insecure and threatened”.

read your initial post to yourself and have a good cry. generalizations and angst at least: stereotyping and hate at most. Like minds gravitate; you are in a position to feel threatened. Next time I’m in the city, I’ll ask any orthodox muslims I bump into what their plans are for me...maybe if I get the inside word, I can beat the threat!

Caqrl B. (aka Carl B. What the hell was that? A typo that you just kept going?) wrote (and I missed it at the time), …sounds like backpedaling likwidshoe.

Where?  I’ve been consistent throughout.

Are you serious about that last sentence? what the fudge?

Yes I was serious.

it’s a good thing to hatefully desecrate someone’s religion...

It’s a hateful and evil religion.  Piss on it.  Who cares?

painting targets; NICE! you can’t be serious now.

Um. Yeah. I’m very serious and have made myself abundantly clear throughout this thread.  If pissing on a book enrages these animals so much that they riot, murder, and destroy, then piss on a million Korans and flush a million more.  We’ll quickly find out where the 6th century animals are and wipe them out. Simple concept.

You’re a proud american…great…if you feel threatened or insecure about it, check your head.

Where did this come from?  It doesn’t even apply.

read your initial post to yourself and have a good cry.

Huh?  What is there to cry about?  You’re wussing out on me.

generalizations and angst at least

No.  It isn’t these two.

stereotyping and hate at most.

Muslims have stereotyped themselves.  I am merely recognizing what they themselves have wrought upon themselves.

Like minds gravitate; you are in a position to feel threatened.

Whatever that means.  I just recognize reality.

Next time I’m in the city, I’ll ask any orthodox muslims I bump into what their plans are for me…maybe if I get the inside word, I can beat the threat!

Yeah!  Great thinking!  I’ve heard that they love self admitted “nihilists”.  Good luck there Carl.

holy fuck a dead cow likwidshoe. Never seen the big lebowski have ya?

“I’ve lost patience with islam” so no angst or hate...you’re in a comfortable state of impatience...my bad.

““Moderate Muslims”, if they even exist, don’t have a voice and certainly have no power.” No power over whom? IF they exist? make up your mind!

“do the world a favor and piss on the Koran.” NICE! Wear that on a tshirt and teach it to your kids someday.

“whatever that means”? There you go again with your lack of even basic hypothetical reasoning...or do you just not want to answer? how about “muslims of mind to carry a grudge will have one against you should you choose to demonstrate your bias in an antagonistic manner.” My guess is you’ll never meet a muslim in the first place. Know any other than the ones on the tv?...back to your hole!

holy fuck a dead cow likwidshoe. Never seen the big lebowski have ya?

I don’t really remember much of the movie.  I saw it close to seven years ago when it first came out.

“I’ve lost patience with islam” so no angst or hate…you’re in a comfortable state of impatience…my bad.

I guess you could say that.

““Moderate Muslims”, if they even exist, don’t have a voice and certainly have no power.” No power over whom? IF they exist? make up your mind!

IF “moderate Muslims” exist, they have no power or voice over the Islamofascists.  As it is right now, the Islamofascists have essentially the only voice.

“whatever that means”? There you go again with your lack of even basic hypothetical reasoning…

There you go again blaming me for not understanding your vague proclamations.

how about “muslims of mind to carry a grudge will have one against you should you choose to demonstrate your bias in an antagonistic manner.”

Irrelevant.  I am an “infidel”.  They already carry a grudge against me.

My guess is you’ll never meet a muslim in the first place.

Huh?  They live all around me bro.  Haha.  I see them almost every day.

Know any other than the ones on the tv?…back to your hole!

Yes I do!  Now go back to not making sense and insulting instead of making a real point!

"IF “moderate Muslims” exist, they have no power or voice over the Islamofascists. As it is right now, the Islamofascists have essentially the only voice.” so you haven’t decided in your head whether or not you want to create a sub-group to speak of within your generalizations. Do they exist? How would you describe them if they did? Does THEIR koran deserve to be pissed on? Too hypothetical? You started it.

“Irrelevant. I am an “infidel”. They already carry a grudge against me.” Not irrelevant...you are not an infidel amongst those who do not consider you one. They live all around you? Do they throw rocks, or just point and laugh? well then, all the more reason for you to sport your “do the world a favor, piss on the Koran” tshirt and commence loving thy neighbor. Gather some friends in the street and “show proper respect” to the book by urinating on it. You’ll find out who the “bad guys” are right away, they’ll be the ones kicking your ass for being a dumbfuck...might even be some white boys in the mix! I’m sure the locals and the police will commend you on wringing out the terrorists of the neighborhood. Acts of hate beget acts of hate....like minds gravitate.

I am really having trouble seeing why anybody would think this is anything other than a vile and stupid act of imbecilism .

Doesn’t it piss you off when they burn your flag and tell you they hate your country?  I know it does that for me.  And that symbol is nothing compared to what the Quran means to Muslims.  How could you possibly defend the pathetic loser who did this?

The closest analogy I can give to this is somebody walking over to another person’s shiny new car and scratching it with his key while the other person was watching, and then express surprise that they pulled a gun out and shot him.

Was it an over-reaction to shoot the stupid SOB?  Probably.  Could you get a conviction for assault?  Probably not (most juries would side with the guy who’d been provoked).

Sounds to me like your Archangel guy should be give some accolades for his action.  I suggest that we start with the Darwin award, because in addition to being the most ghoulish thing I’ve seen a person do in years, it is every bit as f**king stupid as the guy who keys another person’s car while the other person is standing there.

What did this guy expect, an invitation to little Ahmed’s bris?  Certainly he got the reaction he was looking for.

Acting juvenile in order to prove that Islamic extremists are raving lunatics only makes you look like a juvenile.  We already knew that they were willing to kill over a beat-up paperback.  What does this prove?

Yup. He got himself all manly and pumped up and even attracted a few weak minded fans.

Carl B. asked, so you haven’t decided in your head whether or not you want to create a sub-group to speak of within your generalizations.

It’s not my decision to make.  And they’re not my generalizations.  I just recognize the game and how the players are playing it.

Do they exist? [moderate Muslims]

Pffft.  You’ve got me.  I sure as hell hope so.  I doubt it at this point though.

How would you describe them if they did?

Not sure.  I do know that a moderate Muslim won’t kill or threaten to kill someone for pissing on a book.  That much is for certain.

Does THEIR koran deserve to be pissed on?

Yep.  It is the same one, ain’t it?

Too hypothetical?

No.  For once you are plain as day dude.  Rock on.

Not irrelevant…you are not an infidel amongst those who do not consider you one.

An infidel is one who does not bow down to their child molesting prophet five times a day.

They live all around you?

Um...I’m going to repeat myself here for the slow kids: I see them (meaning: Muslims) almost every day.

Do they throw rocks, or just point and laugh?

So this is what a “moderate Muslim” does in your world.  See what I mean?  Where is the moderate in “moderate Muslim”?

well then, all the more reason for you to sport your “do the world a favor, piss on the Koran” tshirt and commence loving thy neighbor.

Alrighty then!  I’ll get right to that.  Good idea!

Gather some friends in the street and “show proper respect” to the book by urinating on it.

Naw. I don’t like piss stains in the street dude.  That’s gross.

You’ll find out who the “bad guys” are right away, they’ll be the ones kicking your ass for being a dumbfuck…might even be some white boys in the mix!

Yeah dude! Rock on!

I’m sure the locals and the police will commend you on wringing out the terrorists of the neighborhood.

The locals and the police probably wouldn’t like me hanging my dick out on the street.  Probably get some kind of indecent exposure fine.  This is good, because I don’t want to see that kind of behavior out in public either. There’s a simple rule I follow when out in public: if I wouldn’t do it in front of my mother, I won’t do it.  There are other mothers around.

Acts of hate beget acts of hate….like minds gravitate.

Oh,...you are so poetic Mr. Nihilist.  Speak some more gibberish for us pretty please!  By the way: nice bit of moral relativism there.  An “act of hate” in your little nihilistic world is destroying something that you own and it is equal to a death threat.  That is your strongly implied argument.  Do you really want to continue going down that road?

Carrick asked, Doesn’t it piss you off when they burn your flag and tell you they hate your country?

No. I don’t let two bit morons bother me with such useless shit.

And that symbol is nothing compared to what the Quran means to Muslims.

I know. That’s the problem.  Our symbol, which stands for freedom, justice, and liberty “is nothing” compared to the Koran (or Quran) which stands for murder, torture, hate, rape, and destruction.  Messed up world we live in, huh?

How could you possibly defend the pathetic loser who did this?

He pissed and shot up a terrorist manual. Why are you getting upset?

The closest analogy I can give to this is somebody walking over to another person’s shiny new car and scratching it with his key while the other person was watching, and then express surprise that they pulled a gun out and shot him.

Really?  This guy shooting and pissing on HIS OWN BOOK is analogous to destroying SOMEONE ELSE’S PROPERTY?!?  WOW!  I am kind of shocked that you are capable of this kind of logic Carrick.  You’re usually the one pulling people back from left field, now you are firmly occupying it.  Oh wait...left field just blew the hell up.  Looks like a “moderate Muslim” just took care of some infidel.

Was it an over-reaction to shoot the stupid SOB? Probably. Could you get a conviction for assault? Probably not (most juries would side with the guy who’d been provoked).

Huh.  Okay.  I doubt any jury outside of some small enclaves in California and Massachusettes would let the shooter off, but okay.  I could just imagine the lawyer argument now.  Can you?  “Well, gentlemen and ladies of the jury, you might be thinking that this man was only urinating and shooting up his own property, but my client was provoked by such a display!  I urge you to therefore find this man innocent.”

Egh...somehow I don’t think that one would wash.  It might just be me though…

Sounds to me like your Archangel guy should be give some accolades for his action. I suggest that we start with the Darwin award, because in addition to being the most ghoulish thing I’ve seen a person do in years...

Pissing on the roadmap to Jihad is the most ghoulish thing you’ve seen a person do in years?  You are very sheltered...but wait - that can’t be it.  You involve yourself in politics and know current news like almost nobody else here.  So what is it Carrick?  You can watch act after act of symbols being destroyed and pissed upon and you are most upset about a Koran?  Wow.  I’ll be damned.  I didn’t think you were a Muslim.

...it is every bit as f**king stupid as the guy who keys another person’s car while the other person is standing there.

Ahh yes.  You repeated that genius bit of logic again.  I’ll tell you what: you’re certainly starting to think like a Muslim. I’ll spell it out just for you: the books were his.  He owned them.  Your example is that of someone else’s property.  Try again?

moderninstance dribbles out, What did this guy expect, an invitation to little Ahmed’s bris? Certainly he got the reaction he was looking for.

Oh yeah. This guy wanted the reaction of a bunch of Muslims threatening to cut off his family’s head.  Great thinking there modern.  You are a genius man.

MikeAdamson said, Yup. He got himself all manly and pumped up and even attracted a few weak minded fans.

Hey, when you have said everything that you had to say and have nothing more to add, this is an appropiate comment, right Mike?  You dunce.  Learn when to keep your mouth shut.

[...] What an idiot. That pretty much lines up with this kind of idiocy. [...]

I can’t help it...I’m a sucker for pathos.

likwidshoe,

No one is emotionally excited by Muslims who speak out against terrorism, so it doesn’t make the news.

MikeAdamson said, I can’t help it…I’m a sucker for pathos.

Great.  You’re in the wrong place.  Go here or here or here.  There are tons more out there.  Have fun!

Carrick wrote, Actually, I’ve been sent here to pull you out of the noise-bleed stands on this one.

How did you think you were going to accomplish this?  By giving me an argument filled with logical holes?

I have always been a believer in factoring human nature into any moral equation.

As am I.  You know what I see?  I see a bunch of people who are starting to wake up to the true threat and who are starting to get fed up.  I see a group of guys watching the Muslims riot over an allegation and then saying, “you know what?  Then piss on it.  Your book is worthless.”

When you attack another culture’s symbols, you can generally find somebody who will fight back.

Oh I agree.  But they’ve kind of lost the respect for their precious symbols at this point, have they not?

Actually, I was reacting in disdain for anybody dumb enough to act in that manner. You can call it a terrorist manual, use it for toilet paper, or whatever. But that doesn’t change the fact that it is a religious symbol for roughly 1,000,000,000 aggressive hominids on this planet alone, many of them known zealots with very short fuses. Sounds like your friend is leaking dumbass all over the road to me.

If you think he is stupid for that reason, then why didn’t you just say it to begin with?  I’d agree with you here.  I don’t think that it is wise for such a man to do such a thing.  He shouldn’t put himself into the position of worrying about one billion plus intellectual children when he has family.  I was waiting for someone to make this point.  I can’t believe it took this long.

And he’s not my “friend”. I don’t know the guy and have never spoken to him.  Found him through the grapevine.  Apparently I was one of the last to the show if trackbacks are any indication.

I won’t even go into why it’s a vile act, if I can’t get you to agree with its patent stupidity.

It was a stupid and vile waste of perfectly good bullets, lighter fluid, and explosive charges.  The next time he should just piss on it.

Mark J said, It doesn’t advance any dialog.

On the contraire, one finds out real quickly where people stand on a great many issues.

It doesn’t make anyone aware of anything they weren’t already aware of.

I have a good feeling that the FBI would disagree.

...and probably piss off a good number of moderate Muslims. And yes, they do exist. Especially here in America.

Oh that’s good. Because they have been so quiet that one can hardly tell that they even exist.  In any regard Mark, I hope you’re right. I just don’t believe it anymore.

Who wants to start a pool to buy likwidshoe one of those nice pretty moderate Muslim girls I see advertised above this comment box? :-D

Basically, I just think that it was an immature thing to do.  It doesn’t advance any dialog.  It doesn’t make anyone aware of anything they weren’t already aware of.  All you do is make yourself look as stupid as the people in Gaza burning American flags, and probably piss off a good number of moderate Muslims.  And yes, they do exist.  Especially here in America.

Likwidshoe: 

I am kind of shocked that you are capable of this kind of logic Carrick.  You’re usually the one pulling people back from left field,

Actually, I’ve been sent here to pull you out of the noise-bleed stands on this one.

I have always been a believer in factoring human nature into any moral equation.  When you attack another culture’s symbols, you can generally find somebody who will fight back.  You asked,

He pissed and shot up a terrorist manual. Why are you getting upset?

I won’t even go into why it’s a vile act, if I can’t get you to agree with its patent stupidity.

lik...should we assume that you don’t support the expansion of democracy in the Moslem World? Should the training of Iraqui forces end today? What do you see as the proper role for the U.S. in the Middle East?

Mark J wrote, No one is emotionally excited by Muslims who speak out against terrorism, so it doesn’t make the news.

Talk is cheap and most of them can’t even be bothered with a condemnation. I want to see action.  Perhaps they could start at their mosques.

MikeAdamson asked, lik…should we assume that you don’t support the expansion of democracy in the Moslem World? Should the training of Iraqui forces end today?

No you shouldn’t assume that.  It is telling that all of these sprouting democracies are demanded to be “secularist in nature” as they say.  As for the training of the Iraqi forces: we are making major progress over there in that area and in many others.  It is a mission I see working and with a minimal loss of bloodshed on both sides (despite what the chicken littles claim).

What do you see as the proper role for the U.S. in the Middle East?

“The age of the dictators are over”.  Our role is to eradicate Islamic governments and replace them with some form of democracy coupled with some form of constitutional republic.  Over 200 years of this human experiment here in America have shown it to be the best form of government.  The numbers are in and there is no reason why other people can’t be free as well.

I encourage you, likwidshoe, anytime you begin a debate with anybody regarding anything at all to share with them your sentiments on this matter. It provides a great starting ground for someone to know what kind of lines of reasoning you follow. I really thought you somehow had it together...whoo boy....Biggest case of misdirected hostility I’ve seen in quite awhile. You hate you some muslims, muh-fugga!

I really thought you somehow had it together…whoo boy….Biggest case of misdirected hostility I’ve seen in quite awhile. You hate you some muslims, muh-fugga!

Sure Carl.  I’ll just ignore the kids who blow themselves up, the women who are beaten and stoned for merely speaking, and the general degredation of the entire religion. I’ll ignore that this is normal behavior for Islam and I’ll just submit like a good little dhimmi.  Happy now?  After all, when you get past the “death to all infidels” part, Islam means peace. Right?

Go ahead and continue to misunderstand your enemy.  I’m not going down that path anymore.

Muslims have a 14th century worldview. This is just insane.

Only in a religious world could the burning of a book lead one to commit murder. If different people didn’t believe that different Creators wrote different Holy Books, all these problems would go away.

I mean, atheists don’t issue fatwas when people burn Nietzsche or Spinoza, do they?

Athiesm leads to Communism which is the greatest force of death this world has ever seen…

Athiesm leads to Communism which is the greatest force of death this world has ever seen…

How do you make this conclusion?  Sure, organized communism is typically atheistic, but being an atheist doesn’t automatically make one communist.  Actually, it seems to me that atheism would lend itself more to capitalism and individualism.

I’m an atheist, and about as far from a communist as you can get.

When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

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Ayn Rand and Karl Marx were both atheists which makes me wonder if atheism leads to either.

Explain the causal connection between atheism and communism.

I’ve never understood that claim.

1. Some atheists are communists.
2. Therefore, ALL atheists are communists!

Dr. Spock frowns at that logic!

Dr. Spock frowns at that logic!

You mean this guy?

By far, the vast majority of atheists I know are hard-core libertarians (like myself)...the influence of Ayn Rand lives on!

You could say a causal connection between atheism and social liberalism exists, but I don’t see a connection between atheism and fiscal liberalism (ie, communism).

You could say a causal connection between atheism and social liberalism exists, but I don’t see a connection between atheism and fiscal liberalism (ie, communism).

You know I think you’re more accurate in this statement than I was, linking socialism and not communism…

My point was this, when you rid the world of religion you end up with religions that glorify mankind such as communism and socialism.

Or individualism/objectivism/(laissez-faire) capitalism.

And just because you have theism doesn’t mean you won’t head towards socialism or communism.  I don’t think it is written anywhere that all gods are capitalist.

And just because you have theism doesn’t mean you won’t head towards socialism or communism.

Absolutely right, which is why I said it obviously doesn’t apply to all areas… But there is a reason that the Left is predominently athiest and the Right is predominently Religious…

K, hold on.. y’all are taking my statement to a place I didn’t mean it to go.

Obviously not every athiest is communist, just as not every islamic nut is offended when you burn their book.  But you still can say that Muslims are offended when you burn their book.  It’s just not an all inclusive statement..

My point was this, when you rid the world of religion you end up with religions that glorify mankind such as communism and socialism.  Everyone believes, you just have to decide WHAT you believe in.  So, remove the Deity and you many times end up worshiping mankind (this can mean yourself or mankind as a whole) in some form or another…

Clearer now?

But there is a reason that the Left is predominently athiest and the Right is predominently Religious…

This is not true.  There are far more theistic people in this country and on this planet than there are atheists.  Nearly every person I know, right or left, believes in God.

I always admired atheists. I think it takes a lot of faith.

Hehe, love that quote…

In Jefferson’s day it was rumored that he was a closet atheist.  His idol, Tom Paine, was an avowed atheist so its not out of the realm of possibility.

I’ve been reading a lot of history about the founders lately (though now I’ve moved on to Teddy Roosevelt) and the general consensus seems to be that the framers weren’t very religous.  There is a lot of spiritual language in our founding documents, but these were political men living in a Christian nation...that’s hardly surprising.

I’m kind of rambling, but my point here is that I see no good evidence of religion being tied to political views at all. 

I think what Aaron is alluding to is the ACLU/leftist crusade against all things seen as being Christian in our government and the more general red state/blue state culture divide.  But I think that’s more a cultural thing than any sort of evidence supporting a tie between spiritual views and political views.

When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

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I always admired atheists. I think it takes a lot of faith.

Northern Exposure, Seoul

Once again, my mistake for improper wordage…

You say nearly every person “believes” in God… but that is because it is nearly impossible to deny there is SOMEONE greater than us… When I say athiest, I should have said something along the lines of “those who do not deeply hold to a religious belief”.  The “religious” in this country tend to be on the Right while the “irreligious” tend to be on the Left.  ::sigh:: One of these days I’ll learn to be more careful in my wordage, I swear…

I just got done reading Scandalmonger by William Safire.  Great book.  Historical fiction, but very accurate to actual events.  It details the first scandals in Presidential politics, including the first sex scandals.  Very entertaining stuff.

What I found particularly entertaining was the description of the pamphlateers.  These people were bloggers!  They went by funny names (Peter Porcupine, etc.) and named their publications funny names (Porcupine’s Gazette, Auora, etc.) and were the voice of the people.

I’d highly recomend it to anyone interested in the history of the period.

I just got off a big civil war kick.  Scandalmonger sated my thirst for the founding fathers, so now I’m off to Teddy, who is something of a local boy around here.  Or, at least, we like to claim him.  He ranched here and always credited his time in North Dakota as part of what brought him to the Presidency.

When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

I think what Aaron is alluding to is the ACLU/leftist crusade against all things seen as being Christian in our government and the more general red state/blue state culture divide.

That is precisely what I am alluding to…

It is interesting, as you say, learning about the religious beliefs, and how that shaped history, of our Founding Fathers.  As you said, Jefferson was not considered hugely religious (although he certainly acted the part if he was not sincere) while men like George Washington were GREAT men of faith… There is so much I want to learn about history, it’s hard to know where to start.  My three greatest points of interest by far are…

1) Our Founding Fathers
2) The Civil War
3) World War II

There are so many great men of historical importance/significance weaved throughout all of those stories and I wish I had 200 years to read everythign there is to know about it all.... So much to learn, so little time…

The “religious” in this country tend to be on the Right while the “irreligious” tend to be on the Left.

I prefer “spiritual” people on the Right and “secular” people on the Left.

Btw, are any conservatives having the serious conversation about how the dramatic increase in “secular” Americans (unchurched, nonreligious people) could have on their movement? The “non-Christian” population nearly doubled over the past ten years, and, as many have mentioned, the majority of these people are voting for Democrats.

A lot of liberal blogs I check out refer to them as the “non-Christian coalition” and believe that they could be the key to the Democratic Party’s future. I think they may be right.

I’m torn, of course, because, while I would like nothing more than to see an increase in non-Christians, I would hate nothing more than for the Democrats to be back in power.

Although that would perhaps give rise to a serious libertarian party......

I still think think that the depths of religious faith are equal all over the political spectrum.  Then again, I’m a secular humanist, so it seems like everyone’s religious to me.

I just heard about the book “Divided By God”, by Noah Feldman.  From what I understand, in it he talks about how the extremes of all sides can be overcome.  Here’s a link, I plan to read it this weekend:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0374281319/ref=pd_sxp_f/104-1160740-3020752?v=glance&s=books

Btw, are any conservatives having the serious conversation about how the dramatic increase in “secular” Americans (unchurched, nonreligious people) could have on their movement?

I’ve touched on this a bit in the past.  I think there is a major divide on the political right between the so-called “South Park conservatives” and the “social conservatives.” These two groups would fall pretty neatly into a-religious/religious groups.

Right now the only thing uniting them is a rejection of the overly-P.C., limp-wristed and (in a lot of cases) batshit crazy left.  I’m of the opinion that on a timeline going out a decade or so the political left, as we know it today, is going to marginalize itself and a new left-right divide will crop up between the two groups I mentioned above.

Its not scientific or anything, but just an idea that’s been knocking about in my head.

When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

I’m of the opinion that on a timeline going out a decade or so the political left, as we know it today, is going to marginalize itself and a new left-right divide will crop up between the two groups I mentioned above.

I hope I live to see that day that both of the current parties are either completely different (i.e., moderates in charge), or gone.  Extremists are in charge of both parties at the moment.  It’s unfortunate that a majority of us have to choose between the lesser of two evils on election day.  If there are more of us than there are of them, they why do we let them run the show?

I always have to sigh when I hear/read someone say that the only thing keeping them voting Republican is that the Dem leadership is crazy.  The reason that this affects me so is that I would be a Republican if their leadership wasn’t so nuts.  And while it’s easier to use words like “crazy” and “nuts”, I think what we’re actually talking about is “ideologically pure.”

I’ve been saying for a while now that conservatives need to take back their party.  The truth is that moderates need to take back both parties, or create one of our own.

Extremists are in charge of both parties at the moment.

We obviously have a different definition of what constitutes “extreme”.

It’s unfortunate that a majority of us have to choose between the lesser of two evils on election day.

That’s just reality to someone with a pessimistic viewpoint.  Human beings aren’t perfect.  If looked at from the angle you do, it will always be between the lesser of two or more evils.

If there are more of us than there are of them, they why do we let them run the show?

“Them” = us.

The reason that this affects me so is that I would be a Republican if their leadership wasn’t so nuts. And while it’s easier to use words like “crazy” and “nuts”, I think what we’re actually talking about is “ideologically pure.”

You think the Republican leadership is ideologically pure?  How?  Why do you think that ideologically pure is “crazy” and “nuts”?

The truth is that moderates need to take back both parties, or create one of our own.

What is a “moderate” and why do you believe you are one?

We obviously have a different definition of what constitutes “extreme”

what are the constituents of extremism in your definition? Care to give any specific examples of contemporary extremist individuals from both the good and bad side?

“Them” = us.

nope. I will not work to govern...let alone impede...your actions, nor do I have any desire to do so. I am certainly not one of “them”. And you?

What is a “moderate” and why do you believe you are one?

Now there’s a good question.  If, in fact, a “Moderate” party were to be formed, what would it look like?  First I’ll say what makes me a moderate:

I believe that abortion should be legal, but am willing to discuss limits on how late they can be performed and under what circumstances.

I believe that children should be taught to abstain from sex until they are adults, but that education must include contraception and information about STDs.

I believe that it was a mistake to invade Iraq, but now that we are there, we must succeed in our endeavor to stabilize the country, and that a sudden pullout would be disastrous.

I believe that the state should get out of the marriage business, issuing civil union licenses to any two adults who wish to be joined, thereby leaving the sanctity of marriage to the church.

I believe in the soverignty of the states over the Federal government, and recognize that this balance is not as easy as it may seem to strike.

I believe that the display of religious artifacts or symbols on public land is OK, but recognize that it opens the door to the display of ANY symbols on public property.

I believe that throwing around words like “treason” and “hate” when describing our political opponents is a transitory but dangerous element of our public debate.

Finally, I reach out to those on the other side of the aisle to discuss issues and try to make them understand my perspective, while trying to understand theirs.

That’s certainly not a comprehensive list, but I could be here all day.

I guess for me a moderate would be a person who holds their own beliefs and opinions but is not so blindly attached to them that the real business of government cannot be accomplished.  A recognition that any solution is a temporary one, as it will be addressed again and revised later, would be a realistic and moderate approach.  Take “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell” and Bush’s stem cell decision in 2001; both were examples of middle ground solutions that are open to revision at a later date.  Moderation requires the acknowledgement that progress is just that: a series of steps toward a particular end, and not an all-at-once jump. 

Jefferson once said “We cannot expect to be transported from tyranny to liberty in a feather bed.” To me, that means that any goal can only be reached by hard work, and that there will be give and take throughout the process.  In the end, to me, a moderate is one for whom the creation of policy and advancement of the business of government is more important than blind adherence to ideological and political dogma.

ISLAM 101
You guys don’t get it.
I am just a hillbilly from Missouri and I don’t have a lot of book learn’en but it is obvious that Islam is nothing but SLAVERY, Plain AND Simple. Once you accept “submission”, which is the literal translation for the word Islam you become a slave, and even a willing slave is still just a slave.  Not everyone is cut out to be a slave, willing or otherwise.  Funny how that works.  But Islam has the answer for that, Terrorism.  Accept Islam or die. 
Note: You don’t choose Islam, you accept it!

There is only one way to force a man to be a slave, and keep him a slave, that is to terrorize him.  This would explain why Islam and terrorism seem inseparable.  The terrorism is Really about terrorizing the followers of Islam, keeping Them in the fold.  Do you really think they are looking for converts?  Muslims view converts as “second class” citizens at best.  For the record, being a second-class citizen in a 12th century society isn’t my cup of tea.

This is KEY, Shame vs. Guilt.
The Islamic culture does not recognize self-guilt.  The concept of guilt does not exist in any way shape or form (can you say suicide bomber?) because YOU can’t be trusted with ANY choice, not even guilt.  Remember you are a slave.  Nothing comes from within; SHAME must be cast upon you by the group.  The metaphor is Stoning.

There is no virtue in “doing the right thing” (the cure for guilt by the way) when the alternative is loosing a hand or your head.  So you see Islam is literally a religion without virtue.

Islam (slavery) CAN NOT exist in a democracy.  Islam (slavery) CAN NOT coexist with a democracy.  For all the same reasons slavery can’t.  Islam will only tolerate democracy long enough to subvert it then destroy it.

In Islam choice is a SIN.  Period. Usama Bin Ladin just recently declared that voting is a sin. But why is that?  It is because you are a slave!  Nothing is left up to you.  Democracy is a sin.  Freedom is a sin.

What about reform?  All the great religions were able to reform when they had to.  Why not Islam?  Sorry, no tyranny, no Islam.  See above (slavery).  Without tyranny Islam collapses.

Much is made of Islam being a religion of tolerance.  Consider this.  Right now in North Africa, Muslims practice the brutal ritual of female genital mutilation.  (I will spare you the details so please stick with me here) When the spiritual leader was asked to explain why they still do this he said: (and I quote) “The Koran teaches that if you can learn to hurt someone you love, you will never be plagued with compassion for your enemy.”

Islam views compassion as a weakness that should be exploited at every opportunity.  It is the Achilles Heel of western culture and western religion.

When the Christian militia was slaughtering Muslim women and children in Beirut Lebanon, who went in to stop them?  The U S Marine Corps, Who were promptly blown up by “Muslim Extremist”!  Thank you very much.  Who stopped Molosivich from killing every single Muslim in Serbia/Bosnia?  The U S Air Force and Army.  Did we get any brownie points for our trouble?  Hell no, they blew up our embassies in Africa and the USS Cole.

“You can’t condemn all Muslims for the actions of a few”. I say you can and should condemn ALL of Islam.  Consider the Ku Klux Klan for example.  Only 10% of all KKK members are violent, radical extremists willing to actually pick up a rope and lynch a man, but we condemn the whole lot, AS WE SHOULD, because they all share the same ideology.  Just because only a handful will actually carry out violent acts doesn’t matter.  On the contrary, the other 90% who stand back and allow the violence and murder are the truly guilty.  The same goes for Islam. They won’t all kidnap and behead Americans, but they all cheer and proclaim it is justified.  They won’t all strap bombs on their children and send them to their deaths, but they praise and reward those who do.  So as a reasonably intelligent person I must conclude that they are all in agreement so the blood of innocent victims is on all their hands.
But hey, I’m just a hillbilly from Missouri.

Only 10% of all KKK members are violent, radical extremists willing to actually pick up a rope and lynch a man, but we condemn the whole lot, AS WE SHOULD, because they all share the same ideology.

well, you see, I condemn them all in my head, but I’m not going to make any effort to stomp down the 90% of them that keep to themselves. Talking shit about them is one thing, but unless they’re working to hammer it down for everybody, fuggum I got better things to do with my time.

the other 90% who stand back and allow the violence and murder are the truly guilty.

now you’re starting to sound like a real whacko. I’m having nothing to do with our military carpet bombing occupied cities, thankyouverymuch....or police brutality, or insider trading or even hippy skippy peace protests etc. etc. etc.

Individuals do things...individuals react to things...should I think you’re an inbred twanger forkin’ aligator on the bayou? Misdirected hostility.

“well, you see, I condemn them all in my head, but I’m not going to make any effort to stomp down the 90% of them that keep to themselves. Talking shit about them is one thing, but unless they’re working to hammer it down for everybody, fuggum I got better things to do with my time.”
I to use to say “I don’t have a dog in this fight” But the mantra “Death to all Infidels” does not leave much wiggle room for you either.

“well, you see, I condemn them all in my head, but I’m not going to make any effort to stomp down the 90% of them that keep to themselves. Talking shit about them is one thing, but unless they’re working to hammer it down for everybody, fuggum I got better things to do with my time.”

That noise is the alarm clock, time to leave LA LA Land and go to work!

now you’re starting to sound like a real whacko. I’m having nothing to do with our military carpet bombing occupied cities, thankyouverymuch….or police brutality, or insider trading or even hippy skippy peace protests etc. etc. etc.

Why are you even wasting what little time you have left reading this SHIT?

This would explain why Islam and terrorism seem inseparable.

As a certain Danish prince once said…

“Seems? Nay, it is! I know not seems.”

What this guy did was stupid, and offensive. And oh, protected by the Constitution. I despise what the blogger did, but I despise more...much more...the death threats against him.

Carrick, your comparing this situation to the guy who gets shot for scratching someone’s car while they watch doesn’t quite hold up. The blogger in question wasn’t doing it in front of a Muslim, so any leathal reaction is hardly a crime of inflamed passions, but rather a premeditated, consciously commited crime.

So a more apt analogy would be if Bob scratched Joe’s car, and Joe stalked Bob for 3 days and then decappitated him.

Lost Verses of the Koran

Surah 115: The Pig

Bismillah:

The hurried flight of the Hegira had led the Muslims to a fertile oasis, where they were at last safe from their many enemies in Mecca.
Pausing, each thanked Allah the moon-god for their good fortune.
Assembling at a long table, they enjoyed rare delicacies brought by bare-breasted sirens whose faces were veiled. During the feast Muhammad sternly forbade his disciples to partake of pig flesh, while fondling the youthful breasts of a Nubian girl named Sheba.
Obeying the Prophet, the pilgrims partook of the succulent flesh of jackals and vultures, washing their food down with strong wine.
“I never dreamed I’d have to eat the loins of a jackal, let alone the bitter entrails of a cursed vulture,” observed a hungry pilgrim named Ahmed to a fellow Muslim, choking on the unpalatable morsels.
“Neither did I, but the Holy Prophet has ordered it,” grumbled another starving follower, almost heaving as he consumed greasy vulture flesh.
“A rancid pork chop would taste a hell of a lot better than this crap does,” retorted Ahmed.
“It’s an acquired taste brother, you’ll get used to it,” spoke up another, smiling with a mouthful of rotten teeth.
“I don’t think so,” replied Ahmed, forcing down a burned jackal testicle.
An uncaring Muhammad, famished, greedily wolfed down roasted jackal in enjoyment, quaffing from an earthenware wine carafe on occasion, while choosing which of the sirens that would soon endure his favors.
The meal finished in the late afternoon, a drunken, lustful Muhammad initiated a sex orgy with the sirens, the debauched Holy Prophet, Allah speaking through him, declaring all earlier betrothals or marriages of the women he knew null and void.
The Muslims celebrated their good fortune, again thanking Allah for the bounty they had been blessed to receive.
Later, as Muhammad sat half-naked under a palm tree, masturbating to the thought of molesting little girls, Ahmed chanced by and remarked, “Oh great prophet, why does Allah say that we cannot dine on delicious porcine flesh?”
“Why?” asked Muhammad blithely, closing his filthy, tattered, moth-eaten robe, “Because Allah’s younger retarded cyclops brother is a pig, and Allah doesn’t want us killing his holy kinfolk.”
“Allah is a pig?” asked an incredulous Ahmed, staring at Muhammad.
“Of course,” replied the deranged Prophet Muhammad, hallucinating thanks to ingesting strong hashish minutes earlier.
“That’s ridiculous, why in hell do we worship pigs?” asked Ahmed sharply, thinking his flight from Mecca may have been the result of heeding the words of a false prophet, possessed of a capricious desert demon who delighted in seeing them consume the flesh of vermin.
“Because they’re better than we are,” answered a smiling Muhammad, now fantasizing about raping little boys, “Look at me, I’m little more than a lecherous child molester, thief and murderer!”
“True, but pigs can’t even talk!” exclaimed a sardonic Ahmed, digging a heel into the sand.
“Allah can, he speaks to me in my dreams,” retorted the wildly hallucinating Muhammad, barely able to focus on Ahmed, seeing him in double vision.
“You’re a madman Muhammad,” declared a disgusted Ahmed, “I’m heading back to join the infidels in Mecca!”
“Who cares?” retorted Muhammad, slurring his words and breaking into riotous laughter.
Prophet Muhammad, opening his robe and again reaching for his flaccid sex organ, was too occupied with masturbating his building erection to reply further, while Ahmed, shaking his head in disbelief, disappeared behind a sand dune.
“What a stupid, perverted, licentious bastard,” spat Ahmed, walking off, adding, “Muhammad is crazier than a shithouse rat!”

Surah 116: The Pervert

Bismillah:

And it came to pass that Prophet Muhammad was growing ever hornier and more depraved: In a dream it was revealed by Allah that he was to molest a young girl named Ayesha.
Drunk on strong wine, the Prophet looked to a follower named Khalil and announced, “Allah has said I am to have sex on this day with a child; the virgin daughter of my brother in law Abu.”
“What?” asked a frowning, incredulous Khalil, holding a wine bottle, taken back by the remark and turning to Muhammad.
“I am to know Abu’s daughter Ayesha,” declared Muhammad, a finger in the air, becoming visibly aroused at the thought having sex with her.
“She is but a little girl who plays with dolls; her womb does not yet weep, are you insane?” asked Khalil, knowing in his heart that the Prophet was little more than a pervert, thief, liar and murderer.
“Probably, but it is the will of Allah”, a chuckling Muhammad stated to himself, staggering off to the hovel of Ayesha.
“What a twisted devil the Prophet is – the will of Allah my ass, he’s just an evil, depraved monster who lusts after the flesh,” Khalil mumbled disgustedly, putting the bottle to his parched lips.
An oblivious and uncaring Muhammad blundered down the street, weaving as he went, arriving at the hovel shortly thereafter.
Knocking on the door, Ayesha’s mother Umm appeared.
“What do you want Prophet?” she asked with disdain, staring at the debauched Muhammad, clad in a filthy tan robe covered in dust and wine stains, a lone flea crawling upon his moustache near his nostrils.
“Bismillah, I am here to take your daughter Ayesha in bed,” the Prophet answered bluntly, slurring his words.
“You licentious be