More On Webb’s Dirty Book

Yesterday both on the front page and in the reader blogs news of some nasty passages from Virginia Senate Candidate Jim Webb’s novels was posted. My immediate reaction was revulsion, but as it turns out when Webb’s writing is put into context it’s not quite as bad as it seems.
As I noted in a previous update, what Webb describes is actually a fairly common and completely normal custom in the Vietnam/Cambodia areas.

Thira Srey, office manager for the Southern California-based Cambodian Association of America, said it is acceptable for a mother or caretaker in Cambodia, especially those from rural areas, to kiss the penis of an infant or put it in her mouth as a sign of respect or love.
The child is usually 1 year old or younger, “but no more than 2 years old,” he said.
The act has nothing to do with sexual feelings, he said, noting that it can be viewed as a sign of high respect by a caretaker for a future “master.”

I’m with Michelle Malkin on this:

Remember how pathetic it was when the Left tried to make scandals out of books written by Lynne Cheney and Scooter Libby?
Cheney wrote a pulpy novel, “Sisters,” about a frontier woman that included graphic sexual passages and lesiban lovers. (A conservative-bashing site reprinted excerpts here.)
Libby wrote a pulpy novel, “The Apprentice,” a “story of innocence and temptation” set in turn-of-the-century Japan that included graphic sexual passages–including bestiality and a scene in which the brothers of a dead samurai have sex with his daughter.
Both were works of fiction. You know, stuff that’s made up.
Now, the George Allen campaign has detonated its October surprise using the same tactics as Cheney’s and Libby’s critics–attacking the fiction of his Democrat opponent, James Webb via an official “press release” sent to the Drudge Report last night. Are the passages in Webb’s “Lost Soldiers” bizarre and perverted? Yes. But they are no more proof of Webb’s immorality and unfitness for office than the passages in “Sisters” are proof that Lynne Cheney hates men or that the passages in “The Apprentice” are proof that Scooter Libby endorses sex between children and bears.

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  • http://proof-proofpositive.blogspot.com/ proof_positive

    To equate fiction with fact is nonsense.

    True! And maybe that’s why NO ONE was doing it!

    We were comparing words to words… Any one want to argue that Webb didn’t use words in his books????

  • http://SayAnythingBlog.com The_Whistler_ofnd

    Okya was first claiming it was fiction, then he was claiming it really happened.

    I guess I missed the mounting evidence that Allen is a racist. I thought that amounted to an accusation.

    On the other hand there were some equally unsubstantiated antique charges against webb, but they were against a Democrat so they don’t count?

    The main thing is that Webb wrote and published that filth. Why is it it’s out of bounds now? Does he deny that he wrote it?

  • aNONOMISLY

    I have no problem with the passage in that it only shows parents showing respect and love, there’s nothing sexual about it.

  • aNONOMISLY

    Cheney’s give-on-girl romance action reads great. ..with Lybby’s bear-on-kid pedophilic/bestiality action I have my many reservations, ..unless it’s some kind of tradition for certain Japanese that is.

  • http://SayAnythingBlog.com The_Whistler_ofnd

    Besides, Mickey Spillane can’t run. He croaked. Makes it hard to run a campaign.

    But he’s voting Democratic this year?

  • http://anangrydakotademocrat.blogspot.com/ bak72

    The difference between the reference to Mrs. Cheney’s book and Webb’s – Cheney isn’t running for public office in our senate. I see it as fair game to put it out – in that if Webb was a republican
    the MSM, NAACP and Dems would be relentless in their onslaught, and we know how long they have had Foleyfobia.

    No, she isn’t running for Senate. She gives advice to the #2 man in the line of power. If ridiculing Tipper Gore was appropriate, then maybe we should have peppered Lynne Cheney over her work of fiction.

    Using this way of thought, I suppose that every politician that has gone to a playboy party and been interviewed by playboy should be asked if they endorse male chauvinism? Or how about evry politician that talks to a foreign person be asked about if they put America first?

  • Pilgrim

    As much it pains me to say this (I don’t care for Webb, I think he’s a posturing ass) a passage wriiten by someone in a novel isn’t a barometer of the true character of the person. It was a sleazy tactic when the demos pulled it, it’s sleazy now.

    Besides, if a work of fiction were truly representative of the character of the author, we’d have long since put Stephen King someplace safe, Mickey Spillane and John D. MacDonald would be under some serious suspicion for, well, everything, and Anne Rice would be in a padded cell.

  • Oyka

    No one is saying anything is right or wrong. This is not the issue. Allen is painting this as the work of a sick and perverted mind because he would think to write such a passage.

    In fact, he is in fact writing about what his experiences, what he saw, and the society and cultures of Southeast Asia. Tell me exactly how that makes Webb some moral degenerate?

    What Allen is doing is the real travesty.

  • http://proof-proofpositive.blogspot.com/ proof_positive

    BTW If you want to see the difference between a Commander-in-Chief and an empty suit holding the office, just look at how many times “W” visited the troops in Iraq and Afghanistan vs. how many times Hillary’s husband visited the troops he sent to Bosnia…

  • http://SayAnythingBlog.com The_Whistler_ofnd

    is Robert Wright a racist?

    If he’s a Democrat he’s not, according to Democrats. They can get away with anything.

    In fact the Democrats will send apologists out to cover for any perversion a Democrat writes about.

    Hard to believe.

  • http://SayAnythingBlog.com The_Whistler_ofnd

    Okya, if you go back to fourth comment in this now long thread you’ll see that I’ve been wondering what these other authors have to do with the filth that Jim Webb wrote.

    What’s the relevence?

  • http://SayAnythingBlog.com The_Whistler_ofnd

    Oh, and btw: I’m mexican-american myself, I wouldn’t dream of being a bigot or racist

    Yes, racist bigots can’t be racist bigots if they are a racist bigot minority. On the other hand they’re able to sling the charge to people that aren’t.

    Logical.

  • http://proof-proofpositive.blogspot.com/ proof_positive

    Anyone want to argue that the choice of words in a book (or a blog) in no way reflects on who the author is as a person?

  • smee

    The difference between the reference to Mrs. Cheney’s book and Webb’s – Cheney isn’t running for public office in our senate. I see it as fair game to put it out – in that if Webb was a republican
    the MSM, NAACP and Dems would be relentless in their onslaught, and we know how long they have had Foleyfobia.

  • http://SayAnythingBlog.com The_Whistler_ofnd

    Bear thinks that both extremes are farcical while providing a link to a farcical website.

    hmmmmmm.

  • aNONOMISLY

    I like the following post:

    Look, you guys make it seem like he made this up wholesale. He was writing about a post-US withdrawal Southeast Asia, what went on, the culture and society.

    He wrote on what he saw because he was there, during the Vietnam War, and after the war. In fact, the example cited here of the boy and the father he explains is something he actually SAW in a slum in Bangkok. Not making it up, he saw something like it. It might be obsucre cultural thing to many here but its something that is normal, and not sexual over there.

    How does this relfect bad on him when John McCain, James Bradley (Flags of our Fathers), Casper Wienberger, Tom Wolfe, and George F. Will of all people praised the book for its writing of for its ability to capture the region in an authentic way.

    military service is a tradition in Webb’s family. His son recently shipped in Iraq, and is now fighting there. I’ve read the book wish all the non-controversy-controversy is all about and I just hope James Webb’s son has the talent to write such a great book one his tour(s) of duty(ies) are done with.

  • Bat One

    Besides, Mickey Spillane can’t run. He croaked. Makes it hard to run a campaign.

    Pity! He’d fit right in with the latest Lite Beer from Miller “Man Law” commercials.

  • robert108

    It was a sleazy tactic when the demos pulled it, it’s sleazy now.

    So, what goes around, comes around?

  • http://www.jewishfootprint.wordpress.com/ Steve Golay

    “unless it’s some kind of tradition for certain Japanese that is.”

    If some multicultural diety says OK, anything goes?

    I Remember there was a batch of parent/child sex advocates promoting their books in mainstream bookstores. Found it distrubing. Thought, how much will God let us get aay with – then came 9/11.

  • http://SayAnythingBlog.com The_Whistler_ofnd

    Did this wright mention some perverted sexual situations like Webb did?

    Is that what your talking about?

    Notice your leftie buddy smears all Catholics but a Democrat politician can write about such things and they’re supposed to get a pass.

  • Pilgrim

    Whistler…..HA!!!

    I suppose he could vote democrat. The left is already brain dead, too. How could you tell the difference?

    And, Bat…yep. That would have been a perfect fit.

  • http://proof-proofpositive.blogspot.com/ proof_positive

    I so enjoyed teaching a few lessons here.

    The lesson is,apparently, if you can’t refute the main point, see if you can try to get a concession on some minor, irrelevant point and hammer it hard!Then declare victory and leave!

    Is Wright racist?
    Am I?

    Did Wright ghost-write Webb’s book? If not, then it is so far off topic as to be laughable. We are looking at the accountability of Webb for his own words, and no one has called him a racist…

    BTW is it possible to start a thread that isn’t hijacked by the master race baiters?

  • http://SayAnythingBlog.com The_Whistler_ofnd

    Shouldn’t we be debating issues and what the facts say instead of going over and over about crap that was done long ago?
    bak72 on October 27, 2006 at 10:12 pm

    Typical “Angry Democrat” strategy. First they sling the manure. They’re buddies in the press pick it up and run with it. What was it 180 stories in the Washington Post, THE WASHINGTON POST!

    So when something comes out that’s probably more relevant all of a sudden the angry Democrats start saying, don’t talk about that, we need to focus on the issues.

    Bak, where were you when the Post was running their Maccaca-thon!

    Rank hypocrisy.

  • HG

    Webb’s man/son description doesn’t seem to match the caretaker/toddler or mother/toddler custom as described.

    Someone has to question the mentality of a man who imagines such things with the regularity recorded in Webb’s novels — at least as to whether or not he deserves to serve as a US Senator. I’d be voting for Allen either way so this stuff will have to negatively influence Webb voters to be significant. We’ll have to wait and see how it plays out on Nov. 7.

  • http://SayAnythingBlog.com The_Whistler_ofnd

    So it’s never about molestation?

  • http://SayAnythingBlog.com The_Whistler_ofnd

    Notice Bear throwing manure at the Republicans while chiding us from thinking that Webb’s public record should be public.

  • http://SayAnythingBlog.com The_Whistler_ofnd

    Why are you talking about Wright is he running for something?

  • aNONOMISLY

    correction: “The Mini Pages” and not the Mini Post

    google comfirms my childhood memories are still well intact:

    In the Western world burping (particularly audible burping) is considered impolite (although not as socially unacceptable as farting), and so some people will cover the mouth with their hand in the same fashion as one used to guise a yawn. However, burping is viewed as acceptable and humorous among youth. Often times, children engage in burping contests to determine who can produce the loudest burp. In Saudi Arabia and many other countries, burping after eating is considered complimentary to the chef.[/quote]

    Japanese Bathing etiquette

    Bathing etiquette

    Japanese wash themselves before entering the bath, as they have a customs of sharing the bath water. This is true as well for public baths (sento 銭湯) as for thermal spring (onsen 温泉) and bath in individual homes. The reason is that other people will use the same water after you (except if you live by yourself, of course). Therefore, you should not empty the bath after using it.

  • http://anangrydakotademocrat.blogspot.com/ bak72

    Or how about evry politician that talks to a foreign person be asked about if they put America first?

    Now that’s just silly.

    The question was sarcastic. I agree that is just silly. What candidates write as fiction has no place in a political campaign that should be based on facts. That goes both ways. You complain about the MSM bringing up things that don’t matter. I agree with that, with Allen’s n-word fiasco not worthy of anything that needed to be put out in public. However, you have lots of talk radio also bringing up lots of junk that doesn’t matter as well.

  • robert108

    Or how about evry politician that talks to a
    foreign person be asked about if they put America first?

    Now that’s just silly. BTW, it’s Mary Cheney, not Lynne Cheney. I made a mistake there, but you didn’t check, either. I doubt that Mary Cheney gives much advice to her Dad on national matters.

  • Oyka

    I might add that this is not some kiddie book to be read by some 13 year old. This is harsh, genuine, no-nonsense account – by someone who’s been there – on Southeast Asia.

    The good, the bad, the ugly, the benign, the trivial. This is what authors do…paint a picture for the viewer.

    He’s done such a good job that he’s been praised by John McCain, James Bradley (Flags of our Fathers), Casper Wienberger, Tom Wolfe, and George F. Will for his ability to paint such a real and authentic picture and convey it to his readers.

  • http://SayAnythingBlog.com The_Whistler_ofnd

    Hey I pointed out the hyprocrisy first!

  • http://SayAnythingBlog.com The_Whistler_ofnd

    If Mr. Webb didn’t want people to know what he thinks about he shouldn’t have published his book.

  • http://SayAnythingBlog.com The_Whistler_ofnd

    Can McCain read?

  • http://SayAnythingBlog.com The_Whistler_ofnd

    Yep the guy accusing others of racism is using the most racist word. Why am I not surprised.

    Other than that what do I care about the works of Robert Wright. Are you claiming he’s running to be the Senator from Virginia.

  • aNONOMISLY

    a soldier comes from Iraq and writes a book about he see, including the savages toward women and weird (but concretely held) custums of the Muslims there. That is what basically what this is about, except Webb wrote about his observation in the War for which he our nation’s second highest medal of honor, ..about Vietnam and its region.

  • http://SayAnythingBlog.com The_Whistler_ofnd

    Yeah, don’t anyone tell us what Webb actually put in a book.

    Even put away the child molestation part, how about the graphic sex parts of the rest of his works.

  • robert108

    If you don’t like what the Democrats have done politically, then don’t complain when they get it thrown back in their faces. The Dems have set the tone here, and now they don’t like it. Tough.

  • aNONOMISLY

    *weird to us, but a deeply cultural accepted manners of showing affection in those their traditions and culture.

    This whole thing remind me on how my class in 7th grade used to read the Mini Post:

    I believe learning about the way many Japanes recycle the water as they bathe. ..father bathes first, wife bathes second and uses same water used by father, oldest son bathes third and used same water used by mother, which is the same water used by father ..middle child …smallest child.

    or with certain people of Saudi Arabia, where not burping out loud after a meal can be considered and insult, as could be burping to lowly ..the amplitude of the burp is a way of telling your host how much you enjoyed the meal.

    ..great cultural tradition!

  • aNONOMISLY

    If some multicultural diety says OK, anything goes?

    makes OK to describe the held custums of other cultures.

  • Oyka

    You just said ‘molestation’…are you a sick wacko who writes and thinks about molestation?

    In any case, the father and son example was not molestation, its a common cultural practice that is not sexual in nature whatsover in the region that Webb traveled. Get over it.

  • aNONMISLY

    for those not in the know, ..”the mini page” is like a newspaper for kids, of which I have many fund memories.

  • http://proof-proofpositive.blogspot.com/ proof_positive

    While it is true that different cultures have different customs, Webb was writing in English, for primarily a domestic audience. Were these descriptions necessary, without explanation, to advance his story line? Does the word “gratuitous” come to mind?

  • Oyka

    You can try to spin this stuff to excuse Webb for his depiction of child molestation,

    Spin in Robert1000 speak = Truth in Regularspeak

    but what about his referring to Asian women as “monkeyfaced”?

    What about refering to Japanese as “Japs”, to Vietnamese as “gooks?” Its certaintly accurate that American men refered to them as such during those eras. To write a book describing the times of an American in that region without taking the pains to make it authentics (which is why his books are so critically acclaimed). Webb is writing a fiction, the man is a creation, in a way conforming to its own stereotype of an “American man” in Southeast asia, along with his biases, bigotries, and preconcieved notions. That’s what makes the characters believable.

    So lets not equate Allens racist remarks, and past be compared to the works of an author creating a genuine seeming fiction.

  • aNONOMISLY

    damn! I forgot which it the country in which MAN generally greet each other with a kiss to the mouth (lip kiss not a French kiss!). ..anyone?

  • robert108

    You can try to spin this stuff to excuse Webb for his depiction of child molestation, but what about his referring to Asian women as “monkeyfaced”? I know what the means, even if I haven’t the faintest idea of what “macaca” means. Webb is getting exactly what he deserves here.

  • http://SayAnythingBlog.com The_Whistler_ofnd

    But Proof; he’s a Democrat, the rules don’t apply to him.

  • Oyka

    Like I said – we are in “dumbass territory” now.

    Yes, I am using the word, but look at the context. I’m not using it as a insult but as a true representation of what was said.

    Robert Wright wrote it in his books because thats what white folks called him…he didn’t write “n-word” n##$%.

    if you don’t understand the difference between using “nigger” in a manner meant to be racist or in the manner I used it than it is all to clear to me why you guys are so stuck about Webb.

    Context is a concept that just seems to fly over peoples heads here.

    But, I suspect its not, its just a weak attempt to win or deflect from an argument you are losing.

    Oh, and btw: I’m mexican-american myself, I wouldn’t dream of being a bigot or racist to another people because that was how I was raised, and because I know what racism feels like and I wouldn’t dream of subjecting other peoples – especially my fellow minorities – to the same crap.

  • Oyka

    Put another way: It would be like me attempting to write some fictional book taking place in the south (of some white guy in Alabama, say 1950′s or something), yet nowhere in the book, in none of the dialogue, none of the interactions, even if the character himself never said it, “nigger” or things to that effect never came up.

    It would be inauthentic because we know about the history of racism and bigotry, the rampant use of the word to refer to African-Americans and here comes some book taking place on the south attempting to paint a picture of life in the south that never ONCE refers to its use or uses it. That would be unbelievable and ungenuine.

  • robert108

    Allen is the despicable one here, and so are any who choose to resort to
    such dirty tactics to win the election.

    Like the dirty tactics in Plamegate, the phony National Guard memos and the lies about Foley? I agree. The Dems should stop doing that stuff.

  • WhatTha?

    I’m going “bananas” for Webb!!!

  • jason

    “With The Emperor’s General, Jim Webb cements his reputation as an extraordinarily gifted storyteller. He excels in mining the rich veins of history to invest his fiction with the drama of great events…. An engrossing, moving, and splendid book.”
    – Senator John McCain

  • http://SayAnythingBlog.com The_Whistler_ofnd

    Yet Webb had to repeat the most graphic elements of what he claimed to see.

    I saw my dog poop in the front yard, but I didn’t feel the need to write about it….until now that is.

    Since it apparently happens it’s ok for him to publicize it.

  • Oyka

    Look, you guys make it seem like he made this up wholesale. He was writing about a post-US withdrawal Southeast Asia, what went on, the culture and society.

    He wrote on what he saw because he was there, during the Vietnam War, and after the war. In fact, the example cited here of the boy and the father he explains is something he actually SAW in a slum in Bangkok. Not making it up, he saw something like it. It might be obsucre cultural thing to many here but its something that is normal, and not sexual over there.

    How does this relfect bad on him when John McCain, James Bradley (Flags of our Fathers), Casper Wienberger, Tom Wolfe, and George F. Will of all people praised the book for its writing of for its ability to capture the region in an authentic way.

    See Here

    Allen is the despicable one here, and so are any who choose to resort to such dirty tactics to win the election.

  • Oyka

    I mean, “unless you are” saying that, not

    that you are racist

  • Pilgrim

    Whether athey are or aren’t, Whistler, my point is that no one, not even a pompous ass like Webb, should be judged by a work of fiction.

    Besides, Mickey Spillane can’t run. He croaked. Makes it hard to run a campaign.

  • aNONOMISLY

    all put together:

    many U.S. youth (AZN?) Asians greet each other with a “wut-up my nigga!”

  • http://SayAnythingBlog.com The_Whistler_ofnd

    King and Spillane and MacDonald Duck aren’t running for anything are they?

  • Oyka

    Allen made no racist remarks; Webb wrote some racist remarks. If you justify for Webb, why not for Allen? Your partisan bias is showing.

    Why are you still stuck on Webb and his remarks. I know you understand the difference between the situations…this whole conversation has been about that.

    Robert Wright – the acclaimed black author – in his famous book “Black Boy” is describing the situation as it existed for a black person growing up in a different era. He made HEAVY use of the word “nigger”…is Robert Wright a racist? Does he hate black people?

    But…but…didn’t Robert Wright ‘write those racist remarks?’ This is just ridiculous that you don’t understand how there is a difference.

    As for Allen: He said ‘macaca,’ which given the north african heritage of his family and the fact that it is a curse word in that region…its suspicious but its no ‘smoking gun’ if you will. Of course, you add that together with accounts from numerous people about his bigotry, his use of ethnic and racial slurs including the use of “nigger,” his fascination with the Confederacy and the south (despite coming from California), his support for candidates and people who definitely where racists and old segregationists, his hangmans noose in his office…well, I’m sorry I personally think the man is racist and I don’t blame people who think so too.

  • http://SayAnythingBlog.com The_Whistler_ofnd

    So far the only person I’ve ever seen the “N” word on this Blog is Okya.

    Some Democrat accusing a Republican of uttering that 30 years ago is proof of racism, but that Democrats apologists can come around here and use it willy nilly all the while of accusing Republicans of racism.

    I think we’ve figured it out.

  • http://SayAnythingBlog.com The_Whistler_ofnd

    Why I wouldn’t be a racist.

    Oh there’s an excuse to your behavior?

  • Oyka

    We’re not talking about anything or anybody else but Robert Wright, and myself.

    Is Wright racist?
    Am I?

    Yes or no?

  • Oyka

    Why not post the rest of my quote which explains Why I wouldn’t be a racist.

    I know racism, I’ve felt it directed at me, I wouldn’t want to do that to others – especially fellow minorities who go through the same (and in the case of black people worse) thing.

    Oh excuse me though. I’m just some racist talking…Hahaha

  • robert108

    I also believe in fighting against totalitarianism and fascism and forcing people into beliefs against their will. I believe in protecting the rights of the minority, not just the majority.

    And there, my friend, starts the slippery slope to totalitarianism. You see, the myth is that the minority doesn’t get anything; in this country that is definitely untrue. The Dems get a President, just not one who will rule as they want. They are not “out of favor” and deprived of human rights; in fact, they enjoy the same freedoms as everyone else.

  • Oyka

    Oh my lord, we are going into ‘dumbass’ territory.

    “nigger” is an offensive word – should Robert Wright never have mentioned it. He also writes about how his father was killed by a group of white men when they let a street car run him over.

    You: “But did Robert Wright have to repeat the most graphic elements of what he saw and experienced.”

    What kind of kiddie, PC’s up, inauthentic book that is so devoid of anything that is ‘not nice’ would be written if you had the choice. Do you have no appreciation for what authors try and do, the point of paining real pictures, not some Disney cartoon?

  • aN

    ..I’ve seen many give the following responce to someone doing something very cool: “you the masta!” and the reply: “yeah, my niggaah!”

  • Oyka

    I don’t know what Robert Wright was – he was black btw.

    I seriously doubt his use of the word “nigger” meant that he was anti-black.

    Unless you are

    The other guy who responded doesn’t even warrant a response as I believe his issues with “monkeyface” are the same as yours. And the rest of his post is so much “blah blah”.

  • aNONOMISLY

    I seen many give the following responce and one does something very cool: “you the masta!” and the response: “yeah, my niggaah!”

  • robert108

    whistler and robert have addressed none of the points I bring up. Instead, they make arbitrary emotional judgments based upon their own bias and dismiss the messenger.

    Nothing like ducking the issues, is there.

    Your attempts to ‘jack this thread to your leftie lie that only Republicans are pedophiles is not only ridiculous on its face, but irrelevant to the subject of this thread, which is that Webb, the hypocrite, is getting his comeuppance for playing the race card, instead of dealing with the issues. Expect to be ignored if you continue to try to change the subject to your version of RDS.

  • Oyka

    So I assume this bruhaha with Webb is done and I won the argument because now its moved on to this.

    A Black man – Robert Wright – in his autobiography “Black Boy” a well aclaimed book that was in fact required reading in high-school.

    He used the word “nigger” all the time because that was what white folk called him…that is just being descriptive because that is the truth of what they called him. Would you suggest that Mr. Wring is a black-hating racist (he being black himself) for his use of that word in his book?

    Answer yes or no. Nothing else. Yes? No?

  • Bear

    Both Whistler and Robert108 are being dishonest and disingenuous in their posts.

    It has become obvious reading their posts that they are content to take things out of context in order to do the nasty neocon tactic of accusing their opponents of what they, themselves are guilty of.

    And if you don’t think conservatives are rife with pedophiles, and that Foley isn’t one, you just aren’t ignoring the elephant in the living room.

    Okya, it seems, is trying to engage you in debate, but you aren’t taking him seriously. Instead you two are baiting him with red herring arguments that are so obviously flawed as to not be taken seriously.

    If you indeed take these false arguments seriously, then conversation and debate is moot because we are engaging with insincere hacks.

    But first, I must sincerely try to elicit some sense from all of this rubbish that i have heard being spewed on this board.

    First of all, I hate the pc term “the N word”. It is in and of itself insincere and pretty much seems like an ivory tower perspective thing for those who have little or no courage. Using the term “nigger” is a far cry from applying that name to a person and censoring the word is foolish and stupid, in my opinion. Now if someone comes up and calls you a nigger or uses it to classify people, then you can take exception to it and take action. But to demonize someone for just uttering the word is dishonest and foolish.

    Second of all, it is a major mistake to judge other cultures by our standards. The same goes for other cultures to judge us by their cultural standards. It doesn’t wash.

    For whatever reason, whistler and robert seem to do this when they call an exchange that is culturally acceptable in the time and place that it occurred and attach the word “molestation” to it, judging by our cultural norms and standards, here and now.

    To me, this seems to be purposefully disingenuous in order to muddy the waters and diffuse the debate.

    Dishonest is the word that keeps coming to mind.

  • Oyka

    Irrelevant, the situations are similar. Both authors writing about genuine places, in real ways, except one uses a fictional “american character”, the other (wright) himself.

    Yes or No?

    Are we all racists?

    Is Wright?
    Am I?

    Answer yes or no.

  • g gordon loony

    Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm I kinda thought that book was written some 25-30 years ago. And it surfaces now so maybe Alfred Hitchcock secretly fantasized about chopping women up in the shower. Man what is that smell? Oh yeah it is desperate pre-voting panic. As for people worried about Foley giving the Righteous Right a bad name,that is pure hogwash as history has proven most christians and catholics prefer boys 8-12 years old and in almost all of the cases a 16 year old is “off limits”. Ya see boys this age can fight back. Father Ritter must be posting on here now.

  • robert108

    None of what you present, even if true, makes any difference to the consequences of Webb’s actions. Those consequences are richly deserved, and your pathetic attempts to change the subject are beneath contempt.

  • http://proof-proofpositive.blogspot.com/ proof_positive

    Unilateral-Presidency

    You mean like the coalition of one that Clinton took to Bosnia?? BTW Clinton said he’d have our troops (in Bosnia) home by Christmas, but he didn’t say which year…think it’ll be THIS Christmas???

  • robert108

    Bear: I am neither Jewish or a recently turned conservative, so your smear term “neocon” doesn’t apply to me. Webb tried to smear Allen about the obscure word “macaca”, and now his own racist utterances are fair game. What he described in his book is molestation in his own country, and in the country in which the book was published. He obviously meant to use this behavior to elicit sensationalism, and now he is getting the rewards of his chosen behavior. My main point is that he is getting what he put out, and that is justice being served. You seem confused.

  • http://SayAnythingBlog.com The_Whistler_ofnd

    Bear you seem to be forgetting that there were infamous passages besides the father and his boy. That may be culturally ok in Vietnam, but he wrote the book for publication in the US. I also find it odd that all of a sudden everyone knows that’s normal.

    Oyka seems to be willing to throw around the charge that certain politicians are racist because of unsubstantiated charges. On the other hand Oyka gives Democrats and liberals (himself included) a free pass on whatever they may do.

    In order to change the subject he’s gone off on some tangent.

    I’m sorry I used the phrase “N” word, and your right it’s a joke. But it’s a fact that a conservative will be attacked if they ever should utter it, while liberals are awarded for using it artistically I guess.

    So if the term “N” word offends you sorry, but just the use of that points out the ridiculousness of the left who assume the right to make up the rules.

  • http://SayAnythingBlog.com The_Whistler_ofnd

    What is Wright running for again?

    Are you comparing the Wright’s work where he repeatedly used the “N” word with Webb’s work?

    wow.

  • Oyka

    Irrelevant.

    Yes or No

  • bear

    I must say, thank you for giving me your perspectives. It is something to consider.

    I also believe in fighting against totalitarianism and fascism and forcing people into beliefs against their will. I believe in protecting the rights of the minority, not just the majority.

    I will think of these things at length, but for now, I must step back, my job is about to get into crunch time. I work as a stagehand and will be booked on a gig for the next week with little else to do but work, sleep and eat.

    Thank you, once again, for honest opinions, founded in concrete terms. I fully appreciate that.

  • http://SayAnythingBlog.com The_Whistler_ofnd

    Yep that’s what they are.

  • bear

    I think that the extremes, both left and right are farcical.

    I do know that the party in power is rife with abuse and that the only thing being done in Iraq is making of money for interested parties and special interests. I also know that the cost in human lives is ridiculous.

    I will not support anyone who goes along with these travesties wholesale.

    Our country is turning into something that I never would have imagined it to. I am a vet who has been to the middle east and this isn’t what I fought for.

    I will debate this more with you later, I must get ready for work.

    Sincere debate is one thing, farcical bantering over non-controversy is ridiculous.

  • Oyka

    Yes or No?

    Why no answer to such a simple question?

    Is it because if you answer what you know is true, if you are honest with your self and answer what you know, than you know it will mean having to consede that Webb is no racist either.

    Allen on the other hand…and its not just about macaca, its the whole body of stories coming out about him that lead me to believe he’s racist.

    Outie, I have to go to work now, but I so enjoyed teaching a few lessons here.

  • robert108

    Oyka: Despite your pathetic attempts to change the subject, Webb is getting payback for his pathetic smear attempts on Allen. What goes around comes around.

  • http://proof-proofpositive.blogspot.com/ proof_positive

    master race-baiters, to eliminate any doubt!

  • robert108

    I think that the extremes, both left and right are farcical.

    And then presents only far-leftie talking points. I call Hypocrisy!

  • Oyka

    Yes?

    or

    No?

    Is Wright a racist?
    Am I a racist?

    Yes or No?

  • bear

    leave it to you two guys to holler hypocrisy instead of arguing facts. The only reason you guys call it a “far-leftie” talking point is that it doesn’t show up on Rush’s show or the O’Reilly factor.

    So, what you are telling me is that NONE of those Republicans listed there are guilty of what the courts have found them guilty of. That NONE of those facts are true. They are just dismissed as “leftie talking points” and dismissed with “contempt”.

    Just as I suspected. You aren’t here to debate facts, you are here to decry anything that questions the acts and motives of the status quo within the current administration.

    This makes the point moot and I don’t bother with contempt, such an emotion would be wasted in this case. There is no debate, just silly argument that devolves into name-calling.

    Pity. I had hoped to find something more intelligent.

    You see, I have friends on both the left and the right, and in the middle, and those that don’t care either way.

    You may find out some day that cooperation comes with respect and respect is earned. America has lost the respect it once had, things will have to change if we are ever to earn the respect of other nations. It will not be done by bullying, blackmail, at the point of a weapon, nor by cheap shots, nor by childish bickering justified by “what goes around comes around” (as if that were some sort of eternal wisdom, where everyone nods their head in knowing agreement.)

    Debate is over the moment you stop talking about facts and appeal to emotional issues and ignore the facts. You two have been outed and this debate is done.

  • robert108

    bear: The neocons emerged from the intellectual left was soft on communism during the fifties, sixties and seventies, then saw the light when Reagan got tough with the Soviets, and it worked. The Dems then smeared them as warmongers, which they still do to this day. The Dems lost the ideology war with those people(mostly Jewish) and like the sore losers Dems are, continue to try to smear and invalidat them, instead of embracing their diversity of opinion. To the Dems, they are heretics.

  • http://anangrydakotademocrat.blogspot.com/ bak72

    Allen’s use of the n-word in the 70′s is a non-issue to me. If you read and saw how that word was used back then, it was a part of everyday life. His use of macaca could have been a story limited to a couple of days if he would have told everybody where he picked it up. I don’t buy the “I made it up on the spot and I combined two words” defenses. Webb’s books are listed as fiction, so those statements from those books should not be used.

    Shouldn’t we be debating issues and what the facts say instead of going over and over about crap that was done long ago? It does nothing but get people frustrated with politicians with all this finger-pointing about stuff that does not matter to them.

  • 2Hotel9

    James Webb writes books steeped in racism, sexual perversion, and caste-ism. And yes, I know this because I have read, and own, novels written by the man. Justify your stupidity now, bear.

  • robert108

    Webb started it; now, if he sincerely repents and atones, we might be able to get on with the real stuff. He needs to take responsibility for lowering the level of discourse here.

  • bear

    Whistler, just because YOU deem the website farcical, doesn’t make it so. It also doesn’t make the facts of these staunchly conservative republican pedophiles records any different.

    I looked for a similar list for democrats and couldn’t find one. The only thing my search came up with was republicans ACCUSING democrats of supporting pedophiles, along with homosexuals.

    So, your taunt is just that, a taunt, with no basis in fact, appealing to emotion and therefore uncalled for and irrelevant.

    Now, debate the facts, if you wish, or continue to erode your credibility by proffering arbitrary opinion as fact.

  • robert108

    TW:

    Hey I pointed out the hyprocrisy first!

    You have my acknowledgement.

  • robert108

    What a childish response.

    Like your threadjack Republican smear.

  • bear

    2hotel9, You are accusing me of stupidity and of trying to justify stupidity.

    Where does that come into debate and discussion? If you feel that Webb is racist because of the fictional books he has written, fine. Your choice.

    I am not here to defend Webb, or attack Webb, but I will call out against nonsense when I see it.

    And if you and others wish to label me a leftie for it, go ahead. Doesn’t make it true and it doesn’t make these piss poor arguments any more viable.

    It does show the level of intelligence that I am dealing with, since none of you have risen above the level of troll in these discussions.

    Vague emotional responses with no addressing of facts isn’t debate nor discussion, but elementary school prattle.

  • bear

    whistler and robert have addressed none of the points I bring up. Instead, they make arbitrary emotional judgments based upon their own bias and dismiss the messenger.

    Nothing like ducking the issues, is there.

    Just got back from work and I find these laughable replies to a serious attempt to discuss issues with what appear to be zealots, unwilling or unable to discuss any of the issues brought to bear in the discussion.

  • Bat One

    “A neo-con is a liberal who has been mugged back to reality.”

    Irving Kristol

  • bear

    < < I am neither Jewish or a recently turned conservative, so your smear term "neocon" doesn't apply to me. >>

    Robert108, it seems you are the one confused. I made no reference to you being jewish. You must not know what a neocon is. And I never mentioned you being a recently turned conservative either. Please get your facts straight when discussing issues. Neocon isn’t a slur, it is an actual group. Most of the Bush administration is comprised of neocons who are also major members of the Project for a New American Century, (PNAC).

    If you spent any time studying issues, you might know such things.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoconservative

    Educate yourself, if you have the ability to do so. The above URL is just a beginning point.

    And you, whistler, don’t engage in false accusations, cheap trick, but the sure sign of a charlatan.

    < < Notice Bear throwing manure at the Republicans while chiding us from thinking that Webb's public record should be public. >>

    I slung no manure, but pointed out FACTS and challenged you to debate them intelligently, which you have so far miserably failed to do.

    Now, point out exactly where I said that Webb’s record should not be made public, or where I chided you about it. You will not find one instance. You two seem bent on innuendo and half-truths and outright lies to substantiate your points. I have yet to see any facts brought to bear to prove your arguments.

    Now if you want to talk about TWISTING the facts, or TWISTING and TORTURING the public record, yes, I will point that out in a heartbeat.

    In the end, you two guys are acting like trolls and this is become a circus with 2 clowns patting themselves on the back for pratfalls.

  • robert108

    Whatever religion you use to justify it is merely camouflage to it’s real intent.

    Or am I missing something? You tell me.

    I’m not using religion to “justify” anything. These are people who have decided, as individuals, to change their political affiliation out of principle. Every American has the right to do that, and shouldn’t be demonized for doing so. The Dem response to the neocons has been hateful, and I believe it is because Dems are totalitarians, especially since Clinton, and they can’t stand that someone doesn’t want to follow their marxist ideology. Their politics demand absolute lockstep agreement(look what they did to Joe Lieberman for having one area of disagreement; he votes liberal 90% of the time, but that isn’t good enough), and spew hate at anyone who leaves their ranks. This illustrates their intolerance for diversity of opinion. Once again, you go back to the name itself: Neo, meaning new, and Con, meaning conservative. These are recent conservatives, who used to be liberals. How dare they follow their principles and go against leftie orthodoxy!
    Yes, you are missing something.

  • bear

    Republican record on perversion:

    http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Republican+pedophiles

    Nuff’ said on that subject, can you argue with the public record? Most all of these accusations are substantially documented.

    By the way, none of these are works of fiction…..

  • http://www.MySpace.com/rubylightening Margie

    Okya was right. To equate fiction with fact is nonsense.The mounting evidence that Allen is indeed a racist is fact, and has become convincing. Both canidates have short-changed Virginia with constant mud-slinging rather than discuss real issues. I am ready to write in Dear Abby for the Senate. At least she has some common sense

  • Bat One

    If you feel that Webb is racist because of the fictional books he has written, fine. Your choice.

    Bear,

    Just out of curiosity, how many years ago was it that Mark Twain’s classic, Huckleberry Finn, was being excoriated as a racist book that should be taken out of school libraries and curricula? despite the fact that is is argued, rightly I think, that Huck Finn’s famous line defending his friendship with Nigger Jim,

    “All right then, I’ll go to hell.”

    is the most profound and succinct literary exposition of what it means to be an American in all of literature.

  • robert108

    Allen made no racist remarks; Webb wrote some racist remarks. If you justify for Webb, why not for Allen? Your partisan bias is showing.

  • robert108

    Bat: Thank you; back at ya.

  • robert108

    Until the lefties attempted to smear Allen with it, I never heard the term “macaca”, and it certainly has no racial meaning for me. Not so “monkeyfaced”. See the difference? The lefties started all this with their smear attempt on Allen, and now you guys are squealing because you are getting a taste of your own medicine. Get used to it. We are now going to be fighting back; you have summoned the whirlwind. You want this to go away: repent, atone and stop practicing the Clinton “politics of personal destruction”, then we’ll see.

  • bear

    And it was known, long before it was proven, that the soviet forces were inferior to the American forces. Our government and military exaggerated the threat to keep up levels of defense spending under the guise of bankrupting the soviets by playing on their paranoia of the west in the arms race.

    desert Shield/Storm gave an opportunity for the United States to field test tactics and equipment against soviet equipment and we performed marvelously! We kicked ass and took names.

    The fall of the berlin wall was the beginning, the resounding victory of the first Gulf War was the final nail in the coffin.

    soft on communism? That to me, is a joke. The realities of the soviet system and the ways they were dealt with by western countries from the inception, led to their demise. Cause and effect.

    It comes down to how your underlying beliefs represent your actions.

    I have read about marines experience in Peleliu and Tarawa and Okinawa. I am aware of the necessities when dealing with a ruthless and vicious enemy.

    I have talked with a friend’s dad who was with the Bloodied, Battered Bastards of Bastogne, in the Battle of the Bulge.

    I am also aware of what General Eisenhower said before leaving office.

    It is not as simple as you would make it out to be, I think.

  • Oyka

    Are you guys not listening? All relates to his experiences, what he saw in Southeast Asia. And again, you called it child molestation when thats not what it was. The fact that you still call it so tells me you are dishonest…its just about winning by any means to you.

    For the guy above him…The lies about Foleygate? Plamegate dirsty tactics? WTF!?

  • robert108

    bear: Let me ‘splain it to you: neo(new), con(conservative) This refers to former liberals who have recently converted to conservatism or have recently become conservative. They are mostly Jewish, and the lefties hate them because they have escaped from the Dem plantation of “favored groups” who could be counted on to always vote overwhelmingly Dem. It is a covert antisemitic term, which now explains my comment.
    The Dems try to characterize them as warmongers, which only illustrates their hatred for anyone with a diversity of opinion.

  • robert108

    bear: Tried to reply to your longer comment, but the post was too long to be accepted. If you want to know what I think of the present political situation, this article pretty much sums it up:

    http://www.americanthinker.com/articles.php?article_id=5984

  • Bat One

    Robert108,

    Some very nice work tonight, Sir. Most satisfactory! I’m out.

  • bear

    Robert108

    I don’t see them as heretics. I do see them as dangerous to freedom & liberty. What they evolved from is interesting on an academic scale, but what they have BECOME is the big issue with me.

    I repeat, I don’t find the democratic party as being that valid either, but there are some basic differences in the direction this country has taken since neo-conservatives have taken over this country.

    You are sounding more reasonable and actually discussing and presenting ideas, I appreciate that.

    I have read a good portion of “Rebuilding America’s Defenses” and while recognizing the necessity to adapt to 21st century warfare, I believe that the underlying ideas are myopic, shortsighted and historically wrong.

    The same path has led to the destruction of many empires before ours.

    I believe that a lack of vision has put us into the same circumstances as in the 1830′s when the polarization of Americans on key issues led 30 years later to the Civil War. Information speeds up, timelines between cause and effect speed up. Our place as a world leader could be in jeopardy because of what I consider to be the reckless actions of extremist ideologues!

    I have heard the bells tolling since the Clinton administration!

    And then the roof came down with the Bush administration!

    Democrat, Republican, whatever! Why can’t we be like modern democracies and have multiple parties of equal value and credibility? And if no candidate gets at least 50% of the vote, then have a run-off between the top two vote getters and so have a true representation of the people?

    Major General Smedley D. Butler, USMC said it best, and backed it up with names, places and dates and figures.

    “War is a Racket”.

    http://lexrex.com/enlightened/articles/warisaracket.htm

    Occasionally, you see these articles talking about equipment that was bought, but never used. Heaped upon trash piles. When I was getting ready to leave the Gulf after Desert Shield/Storm I saw such things myself and thought “what a waste”. Equipment just jettisoned or destroyed. Butler lists such things from his time and shows evidence to back up his suspicions.

    Read what this two star marine general, decorated with the medal of honor, had to say about his trade. I read about things from the right and the left. I read them. I don’t discount them off hand. I ask that you do the same. A multi-faceted situation deserves to be considered from every angle possible.

    How can one do that if one dismisses it without investigating it thoroughly. I am ope to ideas, not accusations. to Facts, not fictions.

    http://lexrex.com/enlightened/articles/warisaracket.htm

    So, you see, it is not just about me being some “looney leftie”, I have been there, I have been a part of that thread of history, I am not some rookie with no idea of what’s going on in the world. Perhaps we just see different things when we look at the same thing.

    I don’t know. But I will tell you my truths. I will tell you what I have seen, and I have seen what was called in the Guiness Book of World Records as the “longest friendly border on Earth” evaporate before my eyes.

    And that is just scratching the surface.

    I believe in America! I love my country! I will be damned if I will let any lockstep ideologues take this country into the toilet! And that is what I am seeing, before my very eyes. I never thought I would live to see this day.

    And so I go, and look for debate, and look to find someone who can discuss what IS happening and not jive me with some emotional BS, but talk in plain terms, about what IS happening and WHO is supporting it and selling us down the river while singing campground fire songs!

    I am not angry at you, I am angry at the direction this country is going in!

    There is another saying, a little deeper than “what goes around comes around”, it says that “You can judge a nation by how they treat the LEAST of their members”, not by how they treat the best.

    By those standards, our administration, our country, and inevitably, we, ourselves, as a people are failing and bear responsibility for it if we stand by and do nothing about it.

    I do not shirk my duty as an American citizen. It is not my right to speak out, it is my DUTY.

    Perhaps now, you may have some idea as to where I am coming from and what my sense of responsibility is.

    Not to play small word games or engage in petty rivalries of ego, but to do my best to mitigate a lousy situation.

  • robert108

    And it was known, long before it was proven, that the soviet forces were inferior to the American forces.I knew it after I took my first Econ class in 1962, that Communism would fail. That didn’t change the military threat from the Soviets. Ronald Reagan was brilliant, in that he defeated them by not firing a shot. We should use the same economic strtategy against the terrorists. Our government and military exaggerated the threat to keep up levels of defense spending under the guise of bankrupting the soviets by playing on their paranoia of the west in the arms race. Not true. I watched Nikita Kruschev bang his shoe on the podium at the UN, while he shouted “We will bury you!” Whoever fed you that paranoid crap was lying to you. Remember the Cuban Missile crisis? Nukes 90 miles from Florida. The threat was real.

    desert Shield/Storm gave an opportunity for the United States to field test tactics and equipment against soviet equipment The Soviet Union had already fallen at the time of Desert Storm. and we performed marvelously! We kicked ass and took names. Despite the fact that the MSM was telling us that our “smart weapons” wouldn’t work, and Saddam promised us “the Mother of all battles.” I guess you forgot that, if you ever knew it.

    The fall of the berlin wall was the beginning, the resounding victory of the first Gulf War was the final nail in the coffin. You have your history a bit confused here.

    soft on communism? That to me, is a joke. The former liberals that saw the light and became neocons were actually more than just “soft” on communism. It was the position of the liberals in those days that the communists were good guys, even while they were enslaving Eastern Europe. Remember Hungary in 1956? Tanks in the streets? The realities of the soviet system and the ways they were dealt with by western countries from the inception, led to their demise. Cause and effect. You’re right, there, but the Dems were into appeasing the Soviets, which kept them going long after they should have failed. It took Ronald Reagan’s aggressive approach to deal the final blow to the Commie illusion. Meanwhile, they practiced subversion in this country, and still are, IMO. When the neocons want to fight totalitarianism in any form, they know whereof they speak.

    It comes down to how your underlying beliefs represent your actions.

    I have read about marines experience in Peleliu and Tarawa and Okinawa. I am aware of the necessities when dealing with a ruthless and vicious enemy.

    I have talked with a friend’s dad who was with the Bloodied, Battered Bastards of Bastogne, in the Battle of the Bulge.

    I am also aware of what General Eisenhower said before leaving office. It’s funny how you lefties take one statement(out of context) from Eisenhower, and ignore everything he did to fight communism. As it turns out, the “military-industrial complex” doesn’t really exist, and isn’t a threat, after all, although the paranoid left would like to think it does. Pathetic.

    It is not as simple as you would make it out to be, I think. Actually, it’s quite simple; we are the good guys, and totalitarians, in any form, are the bad guys. When you have a group that wants to force their ideology on everyone else, whether they are commies or Islamofascists, they’re the bad guys, and we have to fight them to retain our individual independence.

  • bear

    Let me ‘splain it to you: neo(new), con(conservative) This refers to former liberals who have recently converted to conservatism or have recently become conservative. They are mostly Jewish, and the lefties hate them because they have escaped from the Dem plantation of “favored groups” who could be counted on to always vote overwhelmingly Dem. It is a covert antisemitic term, which now explains my comment.
    The Dems try to characterize them as warmongers, which only illustrates their hatred for anyone with a diversity of opinion.

    I see what you are saying, I just do not agree with your assessment of democratic motives. I didn’t make the connection with what you said at the time.

    Perhaps you think that I might be naive for not necessarily considering the fact that many of the founding members were jewish. I think that there are deeper issues at play, more pragmatic ones than race or religion. I pretty much think of that as being at the bottom of extremist muslim organizations as well. In the end, it is all about power and money.

    Whatever religion you use to justify it is merely camouflage to it’s real intent.

    Or am I missing something? You tell me.

  • robert108

    It should read “…that was soft on communism…”

  • bear

    < << Webb started it... >>>

    What a childish response.

  • Oyka

    Ah, Nov. 7 is gonna be such a great day.

    Get those stinking corrupt, greedy, Unilateral-Presidency enabling bums out of there and get some real accountability in.

    The Democrats WILL crush you…And I’m gonna love every minute of it.

    hahaha!!

  • Oyka

    BTW If you want to see the difference between a Commander-in-Chief and an empty suit holding the office, just look at how many times “W” visited the troops in Iraq and Afghanistan vs. how many times Hillary’s husband visited the troops he sent to Bosnia…

    Oh thats just awesome!! He visited the troops in Iraq and Afghanistan…All it shows is that… he visits the troops.

    But visiting the troops is not synonymous with being good to and for the troops.

    A real commander-in-chief wouldn’t have gotten those fine men and women embroiled in a horrible war thats counterproductive to US interests, he wouldn’t have botched the planning, and execution of the war and especially its aftermath, and he wouldn’t blindly insist we “stay the course” when that course is leading us straight into an iceberg (metaphorically speaking). A good commander-in-chief values the lives and wellbeing of his soldiers enough to only involve them in worthy causes, and causes that we can achieve.

    Actions and words have meaning and importance (such as visiting troops), but some just mean more than others.

    There are a lot of things more important than visits that would tell us how much the a commander-in-chief respects and honors his men and women.

    President Bush doesn’t get that.

    PS: The Neocon “persuasion” is discredited for the idiocy it has always been, and Iraq (their pet) was the gun they used to pull the trigger.

    Vote Democrat Nov. 7: Join the Wave!!

  • aNONOMISLY
  • Oyka

    bear: The neocons emerged from the intellectual left was soft on communism during the fifties, sixties and seventies, then saw the light when Reagan got tough with the Soviets, and it worked. The Dems then smeared them as warmongers, which they still do to this day. The Dems lost the ideology war with those people(mostly Jewish) and like the sore losers Dems are, continue to try to smear and invalidat them, instead of embracing their diversity of opinion. To the Dems, they are heretics.

    Yes, many old Trotskyst and such and such…i’ve done the history.

    Apparently Reagan brought down the Soviets…single handed or did he spend them to death? Heh heh. Whatever.

    What’s the problem with warmonger as a term? I mean, the term itself is derogatory but you can’t argue that they are much more…lets say…prone to promote the use of force in foreign policy and to further their concept of the national interest. Their letters to president Clinton and Bush clearly demostrate that their prefered policy was the elimination through the use of force of the regime of Saddam Hussein. They are not against promoting democracy at the end of a barrel. They are certainly no raving lunatics going “war war war war…I neeeeeds it!”

    but come on, as a group they are the most pro-war, and have a misplaced and overly large faith in the effectiveness and wiseness of the military in foreign affairs and that goes for issues beyond just Iraq.

    BTW: How have the neocons win the ideological wars. I mean, if winning means getting us into a costly and disastrous war and occupation, being dead wrong about WMD’s, dead wrong in their assuptions (where were the chidlren throwing flowers and the ever so grateful Iraq that would become beacons for the Middle East transformation), helping to botch up Phase IV (post-conflict)

    What more? Embroiling us in a war that has cost us much in terms of soldiers, treasure and international prestige and support. A war that has stoked further and given a rallying cry to anti-Americanism worldwide and given terrorist a haven and training ground to then spread their Jihad elsewhere. Indeed that has made terrorism problem worse in the world.

    A war that has also inadvertedly (although predictably given its failure and unpopularity worldwide and in the Middle East) succeded in Silencing and hurting the actual homegrown democracy/reform movements in the Middle East

    Wasn’t that part of the grand plan? For Iraq to shine [is it?] and for it to stand as a beacon from which Middle East will transform, one nation after another to bright shining democracy with respect for yada yada and the rest. What happened?

    Given all this: Given how wrong ALL their assumptions have turned out, given how miserably their policies have fared, given how they have made things worse…..

    How have the neoconservatives “won” the ideological war?

    Their whole worldview has been proven to be a joke and their ideas are discredited. Is that what passes for winning these days?

    Funny how victory to them sure looks like stinking failures to me.

  • http://proof-proofpositive.blogspot.com/ proof_positive

    Oyka: The fact that Bush visited the troops in theater opposed to Clinton visiting Monica in the Oval Office was one point of observation about the character of the Commander-in-Chief.

    embroiled in a horrible war

    Funny! Is there any other kind of war? (What? Not enough tea and crumpets for you?)

    counterproductive to US interests

    As the NY Times has so graciously pointed out recently, Saddam’s nuke program was alive and well. Not to mention the stocks of chemical weapons and components of chemical weapons that were found in abundance in Saddam’s Iraq AND the fact that Uncle Saddam was fond of terrorists and terrorist organizations. Are you saying it is not in the “US interests” in stopping terrorism or the states that support it?
    What about the US pilots enforcing the No Fly Zone in Iraq? Was it not in the US’s interest to be able to stand down from the efforts to stop genocide in Iraq?

    It has always fascinated me, that Clinton goes into Bosnia unilaterally, employs Halliburton for support services, inflicts civilian casualties, has NO exit strategy whatsoever, for the purpose of stopping genocide and NOT A PEEP from the anti-war left!

    And when a Republican president builds a coalition, goes in with the UN’s blessings, defeats a foe a MUCH GREATER THREAT TO THE US THAN BOSNIA, a much more vicious dictator, who used poison gas on his own people, who hosted terrorists and their trainers, offered financial support for suicide bombers, and withheld food and medicine from Iraqi children for the sake of making political points, and the “compassionate” left does a 180 and finds all the arguments they could have made against Clinton!

    botched the planning, and execution of the war

    Six weeks from invasion to the fall of Baghdad…unless you are abysmally ignorant of history, this was by any standard the most remarkable victory, with the fewest coalition casualties in the history of warfare! Yup! No planning there! (See: sarcasm)

    especially its aftermath

    Ah! Now you finally approach something of an arguable point. This war was planned as a politically correct war. It was designed to minimize civilian casualties and damage to infrastructure. In the past, wars were fought to totally crush the opposition. Collateral damage insured that the spirit of the people would be broken, the futility of further resistance would be evident and surrender would be total. We did not fight that kind of war. We fought to liberate, not to conquer, therefore, we tried not to hurt the very people we were trying to help.

    So in some measure, the “aftermath” was a product of our unprecedented success. And because there is no precedent for this type of warfare or victory, on what basis do you plan for nation building, for creating a democracy out of whole cloth to replace the thugocracy which had dominated Iraq for decades?

    You might as well argue about the “aftermath” of 9/11. Why didn’t those people plan for an airliner or two striking their buidings? Life is messy. Get over it.

    worthy causes

    Worthy causes???? Food and medicine for children, equality for women, freedom to vote, freedom from rape and torture, freedom of speech, freedom from fear of that “knock in the night”, eliminating a source of funding for terrorists, ending genocide,eliminating stockpiles of weapons of mass destruction (yes, I consider chemical weapons and ricin weapons of mass destruction!) Stop me when the list is long enough for you! How about the environment? Uncle Saddam destroyed wetlands to punish dissent among his people. The US is helping to restore those wetlands.
    So, for worthy causes, the US helps replace a scorched earth tyrant who kills children, allows rape and torture and destroys the environment for political gain with a democracy and you can’t see a worthy cause? That speaks more of your blindness than the President’s.

    President Bush doesn’t get that.

    I think President Bush “gets it”. You on the other hand…

    Vote Democrat Nov. 7: Join the Wave!!

    Do that if you think that treating terrorism as a law enforcement problem will stop the terrorists. Threaten suicide bombers with a lawsuit…that’ll stop ‘em! It sure worked for Clinton after the first World Trade Center bombing, didn’t it?

    Vote Republican Nov. 7th. or the “Wave” just might be “Good bye!”

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