Moderate Muslims?

Over at Gates of Vienna, guest blogger Fjordman offers an in-depth, well-reasoned essay entitled, “Why We Cannot Rely on Moderate Muslims.”

… Some would argue that it is a crime and a betrayal of our own values to argue for excluding Muslims from our countries or even expelling some of the ones who are already here. I disagree. The relatively small number of Muslims we have in the West now has already caused enormous damage to our economy, to our culture and not the least to our freedoms. The real crime, and the real betrayal, would be to sacrifice centuries of advances in human freedom as well as the future of our children and grandchildren to appease Muslims who contribute virtually nothing to our societies and are hostile to their very foundations.
As I have demonstrated above, it is perfectly accepted, and widely practiced, by Jihadist Muslims to lie to non-Muslims about their true agenda. I have also demonstrated that the relationship between radicals and so-called moderates is a lot closer than we would like to think. At best, they share the goals of establishing sharia around the world, and differ only over the means to achieve this goal. At worst, they are allies in a good cop, bad cop game to extort concession after concession from the infidels. Moreover, even those who genuinely are moderate and secular in their approach may later change, or their children may change. This can be triggered by almost anything, either something in the news or a crisis in their personal lives, which will create a desire to become a better, more pious Muslim. The few remaining moderates can easily be silenced by violence from their more ruthless, radical counterparts.
At the end of the day, what counts isn’t the difference, if any, between moderate Muslims and radical Muslims, but between Muslims and non-Muslims, and between Muslims and ex-Muslims. Ibn Warraq says that there may be moderate Muslims, but Islam itself is not moderate. He is probably right. As he writes in the book Leaving Islam — Apostates Speak Out, a unique collection of testimonials by former Muslims, ex-Muslims are the only ones who know what it’s all about, and we would do well to listen to their Cassandra cries.

Read the whole thing.

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  • http://Array 2Hotel9

    They take no action to destroy the deathcult worshippers. That alone marks them. If their believe in Allah is so strong, then dying in his name while destroying those who twist Allah’s Word to evil purpose should be their greatest wish. Why do they not seek Martyrdom? Why do they suffer evil to profane Islam? Is their faith so weak? Ask them, ask why they refuse to destroy the evil that has stolen Islam and turned it to the service of Satan.

  • 2Hotel9

    The fact that moderate Muslims cower in fear of the Wahabi Deathcult is all the reason I need not to trust nor rely upon them.When they stand up and begin to put these child murdering, woman raping animals down, well, then I will reconsider their position in human affairs. Till then they are suspect.

  • http://sayanythingblog.com/ likwidshoe

    likwidshoe, am I being harassed by someone I don’t know? How do I know the difference here?

    I don’t know. Joe, do we know you?

    Remember that I can see the IP addresses of the comments.

    Engage with the one who calls herself ‘student student’. No need to attack her. She’s ultimately on our side. She’s displayed herself to be nice enough that I would rather her not be “mugged by reality”. Let’s try to convince her instead.

    And if we can’t convince her, at least these arguments will stand for those who come in from Google or somewhere else. We may not convince her, but with a good argument we may convince those who never choose to comment.

    You never know who is reading and most readers don’t comment. Keep that in mind. We all seem to lose track of that from time to time.

  • Joe Riley

    I’ve got to go. Arguing with this person is like being in a room full of unruly 7th graders.
    She (I think) asks if we’re here to discuss the article.
    Discussing it with her is about as desirerable as discussing physics with Forrest Gump.

    I’m outta here.

    I’ll check back in after kiddie hour is over!!

  • robert108

    ss: First of all, we don’t know your muslim friends; the theme here is one you have already validated when you wrote: “I’ve also heard that the moderates in the war zone can’t speak up still because they’re still afraid of the terrorists and what they will do to them.”

    Those are the “moderate” muslims who will do the bidding of the terrorists because they are afraid of them, or are afraid to even take a chance in acting or speaking out against the terrorists. That’s the point of this article. It doesn’t matter what they say they believe; it’s what they will do or not do when the chips are down that counts. They apparently will follow along because they are too afraid to do the right thing. We can’t trust those muslims. Understand now?

  • student student

    I still don’t accept that the people on this site think my muslim friends have close ties to terrorists just because they’re muslim.

    I’ve discussed with several people these feelings that seem rampant about muslims being a negative force, and that several ex-muslims have agreed about the negative force and blamed it on the religion. We have come to the conclusion that you can’t trust anyone.

    Would you trust an ex-baptist on baptist points of view? or an ex-catholic? how about an ex-calvinist or an ex-lutheran?

    These people obviously left because they have their own issues to work out with the church they left.

    I have also seen that protestants want to go around telling everyone that they’re going to hell if they don’t convert. Is this really respectful? Every religion seems to want to sway the world to come to their side because it is “right”. That also includes Atheism, for those of you who think I’m religion bashing. Everyone does it.

    I am not excusing the fact that there are radicals- but there are radicals in every single faith who would kill for the chance to prove their point. We don’t need to just defeat the radical muslims- we need to defeat radicals everywhere. We don’t need to make a blanket statement about a religious group- there are terrorists and torturers from religions other than Islam.

    My muslim friends never mentioned being muslim and never tried to convert me. However, the mormon friends down the street came by over easter and handed me a mormon bible and a few other things. I suppose in my area, mormons would think that we’re the infidels, and thus want to kill us by the right of God…

  • student student

    Joe Riley,
    Ad hominem attacks are not part of a valid argument or logic. They are a fallacy.
    By the way, learn to spell.

  • student student

    I apoligize, I found more than 10 links showing that there were muslims active in the military. Unfortunately, the site was down and did not post my links. I also found a link about discrimination against muslims in New York, some stating that with all the violent threats against them, it is pushing some over the edge. I will try to find these back, since you don’t believe that ANY muslims are good muslims.

  • http://sayanythingblog.com/ likwidshoe

    student student says, Discrimination Rampant Against Muslims

    “Rampant”?

    Get real. After 9/11, all of the Muslim apologists came out warning that a big wave of hate crimes against Muslims was just around the corner. It never materialized.

    Now let’s ignore the many cases of Muslims targetting Jews and Americans, shall we? Quite a contrast from your given government report that talks of perceived discrimination.

  • student student

    “In point of fact I did not run away to another country and leave defensless children and women to be tortured, raped, starved, and murdered at the hands of a bunch of non-human deathcult worshippers. No. Your Muslim friends, or their parents, did exactly that.”

    Not all muslims come from those war-torn countries. These friends of mine are actually born in the U.S. They are U.S. citizens and you want to kill them because you think they’re all against us for being muslim. It’s time to realize that Islam is not a perfectly manufactured, cookie-cut religion. Neither is Christianity.

    Also, put yourself in their shoes. If your country was too dangerous for you to stay alive in- would you flee or would you stay? There are plenty of “cowards” in the world, and people flee out of self-preservation. They see that they are better off as a U.S. citizen and proceed to become them. I once met a girl from Afghanistan who was a nurse, helping out all kinds of people here in the U.S.- she had fled, but yet because of people like you, she suffers from prejudice and refuses to tell anyone where she is from because she is afraid that they too will hurt her. As a U.S. citizen, I would do something to make these people respect Americans, such as realizing that not all muslims want to blow up Americans by treating them like the human beings they are. Innocent until guilty of aiding terrorist acts.

    How do you know I am not? How do you know I did not spend my afternoon putting a child molester, a rapist, and a meth dealer through a whisperchipper?

    You could say the same about Muslims. Just because you don’t hear about them doesn’t mean that the good ones don’t exist. The media is incredibly biased when it comes to violence and tends to group everyone. You can’t use a typical media stereotype on muslims or anyone else for that matter.

  • Friend of USA

    « Da’wah [conversion] work can never succeed unless Muslims embed themselves within the very marrow of American society. »

    -Salah Sultan, Muslim American Society New York Conference, April 2004

    I hear about Muslim leaders saying things like that, and things worse then that all the time.

    So when I hear experts like Lars Hedegaard say,

    ” …If I could point to a single example of successful integration of Muslim minorities into non-Muslim populations anywhere during 1400 years of history, I would be more optimistic…”

    or Fjordman say,

    &heellip;I do, unfortunately, agree with Hedegaard that we have already passed the point of no return for serious conflicts caused by Muslim immigration. Anything we do now is damage limitation…”

    And when I read dozens and dozens of articles and interviews on what other experts have to say about
    it,
    I know we should be worried that the western world is drifting slowly but surely toward a caliphate under sharia law.

    I believe it is happening so slowly that most people refuse to believe it.

    Hospitals in England have new gowns for Muslim women; a powder blue tent – yes the word burka actually means tent, that is not a joke nor an insult – little concessions here and there and in 25, 50 or who knows how many years our civilization will lost to.

    It is too late for Europe, but we are next.

    Unless something big, something radical happens…but what?

  • http://sayanythingblog.com/ likwidshoe

    student student said, I still don’t accept that the people on this site think my muslim friends have close ties to terrorists just because they’re muslim.

    Who here believes that?

    I have also seen that protestants want to go around telling everyone that they’re going to hell if they don’t convert. Is this really respectful?

    So what? You’re talking of annoying behavior and we’re talking of Muslims who can’t accept the answer of “no”. Big difference.

    Every religion seems to want to sway the world to come to their side because it is “right”. That also includes Atheism, for those of you who think I’m religion bashing. Everyone does it.

    Except most agnostics. So not “everyone”.

    My muslim friends never mentioned being muslim and never tried to convert me. However, the mormon friends down the street came by over easter and handed me a mormon bible and a few other things. I suppose in my area, mormons would think that we’re the infidels, and thus want to kill us by the right of God…

    Well, you could suppose that, but it doesn’t make it true.

    I’ll just remember to tell my muslim friends that you wish they’d all die because they all have ties to muslim terrorists (according to you).

    Yeah, when did he say that? Thanks.

    That should really make them feel good about non-muslim America. Maybe it’ll make them feel good enough to attack us.

    They’ll attack us because you like to instigate and make shit up? So much for being “moderate”.

    It’s time to realize that Islam is not a perfectly manufactured, cookie-cut religion. Neither is Christianity.

    Why do defenders of Islam have to always reference Christianity? They’re not the same kind of religion. Christianity’s prophet was a decent guy who, by all accounts, never hurt anybody. Contrast that with Islam’s prophet – that guy was war-hungry child molestor.

  • student student

    You can’t deny the fact that there ARE muslims that are doing their part, being active, and serving in the military here on the side of the US. You are discrediting these people by stating that they are just like the oppressed muslims in Iraq and Afghanistan who do the bidding of the terrorists out of fear.

  • 2Hotel9

    They take no action to destroy the deathcult worshippers. That alone marks them. If their believe in Allah is so strong, then dying in his name while destroying those who twist Allah’s Word to evil purpose should be their greatest wish. Why do they not seek Martyrdom? Why do they suffer evil to profane Islam? Is their faith so weak? Ask them, ask why they refuse to destroy the evil that has stolen Islam and turned it to the service of Satan.

  • student student
  • student student

    You can’t get much dumber than that!

    What’s your point, troll?

  • Joe Riley

    why aren’t you helping to destroy pedophile priests and preachers? Let’s hear your reason for it.

    What an idiot!!!!!!!!

    Does this person realize what they’re saying??

    Appears to be a clear case of cranial rectal inversion.

  • student student

    violence and unrest-Muslims

    Less than 10% of French Muslims are extremists. This was taken off of a yahoo news article.

    What an idiot!!!!!!!!

    Does this person realize what they’re saying??

    Appears to be a clear case of cranial rectal inversion.

    Say something of substance, please, relating to the evidence and comparisons I am providing. I really don’t care for your scatology based on the fact that I have a different viewpoint than you.

  • http://www.campus-watch.org/ Bezu Fache

    Muslims are apparently just badly misunderstood philanthropists.

    Current Religious Conflicts

    Afghanistan – Muslims & Non-Muslims

    Bosnia
    -Serbian Christians & Muslims

    Côte d’Ivoire
    -Muslims & Christians

    Cyprus
    -Christians & Muslims

    East Timor-Christians & Muslims

    India
    -Hindus & Muslims

    Indonesia-Muslims & Christians

    Iraq-Shiite Muslims & Sunni Muslims

    Kashmir -Hindus & Muslims

    Kosovo
    -Christians & Muslims

    Kurdistan
    -Christians & Muslims

    Macedonia
    -Christians & Muslims

    Middle East-Jews & Muslims

    Nigeria-Christians & Muslims

    Pakistan-Sunni & Shiite Muslims

    Philippines-Christians & Muslims

    Chechnya-Christians & Muslims

    Sudan
    -Christians & Muslims

    France -violence and unrest-Muslims

    Britain-violence and unrest, terrorist plots-Muslims

    Spain- violence and unrest-Muslims-terrorist plots

    Canada -violence and unrest-terrorists plots–Muslims


    Moderate Muslims?

  • student student

    Student student is full of infantile nonsense and is obviously a child.
    I can’t imagine an adult expressing ridiculous naive, confused, convoluted views like that.

    Are we here to discuss me, or the article? I can choose to have whatever views I want to at whatever age I am.

    And thankyou, likwidshoe, for showing some respect and being mature. :) I appreciate your criticisms.

  • Joe Riley

    Student’s Post:
    I wrote:

    You can’t get much dumber than that!

    Student wrote:

    What’s your point, troll?

    The point is you’re dumb. I tought that was pretty straightforward.
    Seems like that point was very clear but you missed it just like you’ve missed all the others.

    Are you friggin insane or something.. I mean, do you have mental problems or something?

    You obviously forgot to take your medication today.

  • http://jihadwatch.org/ Joe Riley

    “Christians always listen to a Christian authority comparing Christianity to Islam. But that’s only half of the story. How would they like it if a Muslim imam compared Islam to Christianity? How would they like that? What happens when non-Christians use Old Testament verses out of context? Aren’t they severely criticized? So why then are people who take the Qu’ran verses out of context not criticized also? Isn’t that just what the terrorists are doing? Aren’t we doing just that to the Quaran? And what happens when we compare rather than contrast Christianity and Islam. Aren’t we more alike than different?”

    1) Without even a shadow of a doubt, Christianity and Islam are “not” more alike than different.

    2) When non-Christians use Old Testament verses out of context “what happens” is they prove their own ignorance.

    3) If a non-Muslim uses Qur’anic verses out of context he would also prove his own ignorance.

    But, more importantly, people who make the charge that other people are taking things out of context, without knowing the context themselves, could not only be characterized as ignorant but arrogant as well.

    4) A Muslim would neither compare nor contrast the two religions because:

    “THERE IS NO DEITY WORTHY OF WORSHIP EXCEPT ALLAH, AND MUHAMMAD IS HIS MESSENGER “and

    “If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (Submission to Allah), never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter he will be in the ranks of those who have lost.”(Qur’an 3:85)

    There are no better sources to demonstrate the violently combative and imperialistic nature of Islam than the Qu’ran, Hadiths, and Sunnahs.

    I don’t see how anyone could debate issues about Islam without reading them first!!!!!!

  • http://www.campus-watch.org/ Bezu Fache

    1) US: Critics Want Probe of Islamic School in Virginia

    Read it

    From the Washington Times:

    The Islamic Saudi Academy in Alexandria, Virginia is an outpost of militant Islam, say critics who point out that the school’s 1999 valedictorian is charged with joining al Qaeda and plotting to assassinate President Bush.

    Two other persons connected to the academy also have been linked to terrorism-related cases, and a U.S. senator has asked the Justice Department to investigate the school.

    But the academy’s teachers, students and administrators say suspicion of the school serving nearly 1,000 students in kindergarten through 12th grade at two campuses just beyond the Capital Beltway is based on misperceptions…

    Sorry teachers, students and administrators, facts are facts, not “misperceptions.”

    A Madrassa is a school where Islam is taught.
    A typical madrasah usually offers two courses of study: a “hifz” course; that is memorisation of the Qur’an and an ‘alim course leading the candidate to become an accepted scholar in the community.
    A regular curriculum includes courses in Arabic, Tafsir (Qur’anic interpretation), shari’ah (Islamic law), Hadith (recorded sayings and deeds of Prophet Muhammad), Mantiq (logic), and Muslim History.

    2)This from the Royal Oak Intermediate School in Covina, California, 35 miles east of Los Angeles where any and all (even implicit) references to Christianity or the Bible are banned by law and viciously litigated by the ACLU.

    “IN AN ATTEMPT TO PROMOTE A GREATER UNDERSTANDING and empathy towards the Muslim religion and toward other culture(s),” read the teacher note sent home in November to each student’s parents or guardian, “I am encouraging students to participate in an extra credit assignment.”

    (Text of a letter sent to Parents)

    ROYAL OAK INTERMEDIATE SCHOOL
    World History Mr. Cesene

    Dear Parents or Guardian,
    As part of the world history curriculum, your student has recently been studying the rise of Islam and the teachings of Mohammed.
    Fundamental to the Muslim religion are the Five Pillars of Islam.
    They emphasize the “word of God,” prayer, charity for the poor, fasting and the pilgrimage to Mecca.

    During the month of Ramadan, Muslims refrain from food or drink during daylight hours.

    In an attempt to promote a greater understanding and empathy towards the Muslim religion and toward other culture, I am encouraging students to participate in an extra credit assignment.
    Students may choose to fast for one, two or three days. During this time, students may only drink water during daylight hours.

    Once fasting is completed, students are to type a ½ page summary of their experience.
    They should describe how it felt to go without food during the day and connect it to the theme of sacrifice.
    Fasting is inconvenient and sometimes uncomfortable, many religions to consider it an important sacrifice.
    I wish to emphasize that this is an EXTRA CREDIT assignment and is by no means mandatory.
    For those unable to fast, they may choose to type a 2 page paper in which they compare different religions that encourage sacrifice during the year.
    I give my son or daughter permission to fast for one, two or three days.
    Final papers for either project are due by Wed. November 26th.

    But by prompting his public school students to have “empathy towards” and to practice one of the religious rituals of Islam, Cesene (the teacher) in effect has turned Royal Oak Intermediate School into an American Madrassa.
    He was extending the pro-Islamic lessons in textbooks that have been used in California, Alabama, and many individual public school districts — perhaps including the one where your children attend school.

    These California taxpayer-funded public school Madrassas have reportedly used educational materials supplied by Saudi Arabia — just as in similar schools in Pakistan.

    Do these teachings produce hatred for the West? Such classes may already have produced at least one American Taliban terrorist.
    These teachings may also already have sown the seeds from which heaven only knows how many more radical Islamists might spring.

  • Joe Riley

    Who is this Student Student person?

    Would you trust an ex-baptist on baptist points of view? or an ex-catholic? how about an ex-calvinist or an ex-lutheran?

    These people obviously left because they have their own issues to work out with the church they left.

    You can’t get much dumber than that!

  • Joe Riley

    Student student is full of infantile nonsense and is obviously a child.
    I can’t imagine an adult expressing ridiculous naive, confused, convoluted views like that.

  • student student

    sources?

  • http://sayanythingblog.com/ likwidshoe

    Joe Riley said, You can’t get much dumber than that!

    Sure you can. Stick around. We’ve got a throng of regular commenters who beat student student out of the water in that department. One even laughingly calls himself “realitybased”.

    While I sometimes say “that’s just fucking stupid!” to myself after reading one of student student’s comments, she is just a little naive on some issues. I wouldn’t call her dumb.

    At least student student and the conservative regulars here agree on some important core issues. She loves this country and gives it credit where it is due, tries to do what she perceives as “fair” without trampling on people’s rights, and has an understanding of some issues that make me shake my head in agreement. I’ll give her that.

  • robert108

    ss: Obviously, the person known as “Joe Riley” is not responding with any sort of reasoned debate, choosing instead to go for personal attack. Personal attack generally signals a lack of substance, so best to ignore that sort of ranting.
    On the subject of muslims in general, you seem to want to make a point that generalizing about them is bad, and that might be true under some circumstances. In time of war, where there are muslims who want to cut off our heads because we don’t believe as they do, and where there are other muslims who say they don’t want to do that, but are intimidated by the violent ones to go along with them, why should we trust any of them? The burden of proof is on them, not us. Haven’t enough “infidels” been killed by Islamofascists for us to mistrust them? Why should we risk our lives to protect their feelings?

  • robert108

    ss: “1. HATING A CULTURE CAUSES THEM TO HATE YOU.

    What part of them calling us “Crusaders” don’t you understand? They hated us before the US even existed. Islam declared war on the rest of the world over 1300 years ago. What they are getting back not is the hate they have been putting out for all that time.

    2. HATING MUSLIMS CAUSES THEM TO HATE YOU.

    You can’t make a hater out of someone who isn’t full of hate in the first place. Muslims are not victims, but are perpetrators.

    3. IF YOU HIT SOMEONE, THEY WILL DESPISE YOU.

    Munich, 1972; WTC, 1993; WTC, 2001; that’s only a small fraction of the times Muslims have “hit” us.

    4. IF YOU HIT A MUSLIM, THEY WILL DESPISE YOU.

    The US, on the other hand, is very tolerant, but if you f*ck with us, we will kill you.

    I must also point out that Muslim values, as you have expressed them, are hateful, whereas Christian values are tolerant. See the difference?

  • student student

    And well, Canada is just the perfect place for people to go if they want to escape for anything…exactly anything…

    As my business teacher put it, they even pay for the roads through forests so that the forest industry can cut down their trees, making canadian paper cheaper. However, when charged with dumping, the Canadians said “Well, anyone can actually have a forestry industry here without paying for the roads” and got off the hook.

    Going through the Canadian border, they have those useless guards to check for bombs and stuff. Do they ever check? No. They just peer in your car, don’t open the trunk, and ask if you have anything they might be interested in. Is a terrorist really going to say “Yeah, want to see the bomb I have in my trunk? It’s pretty cool!”

  • student student
  • student student
  • Joe Riley

    Likwidshoe

    Engage with the one who calls herself student student

    I understand your sentiments. However, I find it more and more difficult, if not impossible, to tolerate that type of insufferably inane nonsense.
    Isn’t there a “sayanythingblog” for kids that you could redirect her to?
    I’ll never “engage” the child again because her views are so foolish and immature that they’re not really worth engaging. I’ll leave that to more patient types like you.
    To honor your request (after all I’m in your house) I will simply ignore any comments she makes on any threads that I’m reading.

  • student student

    likwidshoe, am I being harassed by someone I don’t know? How do I know the difference here?

  • 2Hotel9

    SS, why are your friends not helping to destroy our common enemy? What is their justification for cowering in fear? Let’s hear it.

  • http://www.museumofleftwinglunacy.com/archives/2004/10/teresa_urges_de.html Joe Riley

    AH OH…..

    Exit….stage left… time to laeve this site and watch football.. will return after stu…..well er uh… you know!!!

  • http://sayanythingblog.com/ likwidshoe

    To honor your request (after all I’m in your house)…

    You’re in Rob’s house. I’m ultimately a guest here as well. I just get to drive the car sometimes.

  • student student

    why aren’t you helping to destroy pedophile priests and preachers? Let’s hear your reason for it.

    Do you really think a 20 year old muslim is going to quit school just to prove your point? certainly you can do better things to criticize muslims for inactivity (there are actually some active ones that prove that their religion is peaceful and denounce the terrorists). As a matter of fact, how many people do you think are inactive in public life despite the extremists in their religion?

    I’ve also heard that the moderates in the war zone can’t speak up still because they’re still afraid of the terrorists and what they will do to them. So which moderates, exactly, are we all talking about?

    I’ll be back later tonight, I have to go somewhere. I’ll just remember to tell my muslim friends that you wish they’d all die because they all have ties to muslim terrorists (according to you). That should really make them feel good about non-muslim America. Maybe it’ll make them feel good enough to attack us.

  • 2Hotel9

    You are still being mean to stupidstupid, even if it is in 2 different languages. Fess up, Joe! Your just a mean, evil, hate-filled, jingoistic, Muslim basher. And those are your good qualities.

  • student student

    I have felt harrassed by Joe Riley on enough occasions in this thread to believe that he is personally attacking me for no other reason than to offend me.

    1.”Who is this Student Student person?…You can’t get much dumber than that!”

    2.”What an idiot!!!!!!!!

    Does this person realize what they’re saying??

    Appears to be a clear case of cranial rectal inversion.”

    3.”Student student is full of infantile nonsense and is obviously a child.
    I can’t imagine an adult expressing ridiculous naive, confused, convoluted views like that.”

    4.”The point is you’re dumb. I tought that was pretty straightforward.
    Seems like that point was very clear but you missed it just like you’ve missed all the others.

    Are you friggin insane or something.. I mean, do you have mental problems or something?

    You obviously forgot to take your medication today.”

    5.”I’ve got to go. Arguing with this person is like being in a room full of unruly 7th graders.
    She (I think) asks if we’re here to discuss the article.
    Discussing it with her is about as desirerable as discussing physics with Forrest Gump.

    I’m outta here.

    I’ll check back in after kiddie hour is over!!

    6.”I understand your sentiments. However, I find it more and more difficult, if not impossible, to tolerate that type of insufferably inane nonsense.
    Isn’t there a “sayanythingblog” for kids that you could redirect her to?
    I’ll never “engage” the child again because her views are so foolish and immature that they’re not really worth engaging. I’ll leave that to more patient types like you.
    To honor your request (after all I’m in your house) I will simply ignore any comments she makes on any threads that I’m reading.”

    These are the only posts that I have found between Joe Riley and I. They have all maligned me as a person. All have referred to me as a “dumb” person and a “child”. The number of posts referencing to this is disturbing, considering they are all coming from one person, who has only mentioned that one thing. I find it rather creepy, and stalker-like. I would have preferred to have been called dumb once and had the subject left alone, but out of disrespect, it continues.

  • student student

    All of you just proved earlier that not ALL muslims are bad muslims. And as for my muslim friends, they are normal people like you and me, not MUSLIM TERRORISTS. And no, I don’t know anyone in prison, nor is it anyone’s business.

    Do you know the difference between a muslim terrorist and a regular muslim? Do you even know that there are muslims that are NOT TERRORISTS? Despite the articles you have given me, I know that there are white men who have turned their backs on others. White, christian men, who could not handle being in a war situation. Do all white men kill? No. Do all muslims kill? No. Should we kill all muslims? No. Are we causing all of the muslims to turn against us? No.

    You think I’m supporting the terrorists, but I am not. It is bigoted to think that all muslims support the terrorists.

    1. SOME MUSLIMS ARE GOOD MUSLIMS.
    2. SOME MUSLIMS ARE BAD MUSLIMS.
    3. SOME MUSLIMS ARE MODERATE MUSLIMS.

    (GoodModerateBad)

    4. MODERATE MUSLIMS CAN BE GOOD OR BAD

    1. HATING A CULTURE CAUSES THEM TO HATE YOU.
    2. HATING MUSLIMS CAUSES THEM TO HATE YOU.
    3. IF YOU HIT SOMEONE, THEY WILL DESPISE YOU.
    4. IF YOU HIT A MUSLIM, THEY WILL DESPISE YOU.

    5. IF YOU WANT TO CONVINCE SOMEONE THAT YOU ARE RIGHT, YOU REASON.
    6. IF YOU HIT SOMEONE TO PROVE THAT YOU ARE RIGHT, THEY DESPISE YOU.
    7. IF THE PERSON DESPISES YOU, THEY WILL NOT LISTEN TO REASON.

    You don’t seem to want to admit the fact that there are good Muslims. In fact, I’m still getting the idea that all you want to do is kill all Muslims. Get your facts straight. This is a War on Terror. Not a Holy War.

  • student student

    I do not intend to be a troll, but to simply put out a different viewpoint that happens to be my viewpoint. I read every comment and respond accordingly. I do not intend to be a menace to anyone here, but to simply debate on the side of or against the other guests here.

  • student student

    I still don’t understand what has offended Joe Riley so much as to call me dumb five times in one thread. There have not been any specific instances of what makes me dumb- just a simple statement and an attack on my person by Joe Riley. I do not consider this to be contructive criticism at all. Sometimes a child can be more rational than Joe Riley because Joe Riley does not even justify his reason for calling me dumb.

  • student student

    You are listening to the wahabists. Have you read the articles I posted for you to read, or are you just repeating the same thing over and over again without consideration of what I have sent? George Bush supports Muslims, but not extremists.

    Not all sects of Islam are focused on Jihad. Have you ever studied Islam? I’ve had class projects on Islam before and realized that they are very peaceful. Just because you can’t see their body under a dark burka does not make them evil. It is their choice to wear that burka.

    I would not say that 85% of muslims want to kill us. They are actually one of the largest religions in the world, and I’m sure they would have already killed us by use of their sheer numbers if their only goal was to convert or kill.

    Rather, I meant in self defense, if an american hurts a muslim’s feelings, then a muslim will feel as though they are un-american and begin to dislike americans. If you read one of the documents I provided, it lists harassment issues that muslims in new york face (and there is a very large muslim community there). I know that more than 65% of muslims have faced prejudice after 9-11 and a lot of them have had name-calling and violent incidents against them. If an American held a knife up to you, wouldn’t you hate Americans?

    Knowing that my rapist was in a military family did not make me respect the military as much. If I had a number of insults coming from military families, then I would conclude that the entire population of the military families does not like me. I would want to either hurt someone or leave.

    It is an act of self-preservation. Unfortunately, those that call me a liberal don’t seem to believe in a sense of self-preservation. There is not just “for” or “against”. It is not just a black and white issue. I have seen no evidence that anyone has read my links, which provide quotes from Bush on the war and statistics, along with quotes from muslim men fighting for the U.S.

    According to the statistic you have given me, you have discounted the other 15% of the population, and where will they go when they can’t trust Americans any more?

  • robert108

    ss: You write: “Muslims values do not focus on Jihad. They focus on helping the community through charity…”

    Then you write: “1. HATING A CULTURE CAUSES THEM TO HATE YOU.
    2. HATING MUSLIMS CAUSES THEM TO HATE YOU.
    3. IF YOU HIT SOMEONE, THEY WILL DESPISE YOU.
    4. IF YOU HIT A MUSLIM, THEY WILL DESPISE YOU.

    Which is it? It seems that their veneer of “charity”, if it exists at all, is very thin. According to you, they are ready to hate and strike out at the slightest sign of anything they don’t like. That is hardly “charity”. They are playing you.

    BTW, they are focused on jihad. Listen to what they say to us every day.

  • 2Hotel9

    How do you know I am not? How do you know I did not spend my afternoon putting a child molester, a rapist, and a meth dealer through a whisperchipper? In point of fact I did not run away to another country and leave defensless children and women to be tortured, raped, starved, and murdered at the hands of a bunch of non-human deathcult worshippers. No. Your Muslim friends, or their parents, did exactly that. Now we, real humans, must go and clean up the mess they helped, through their personal cowardice, create. Now tell us all how it is their culture and we have no right to judge them. We never get tired of that shit.

  • robert108

    ss: I notice that you never deal with the main issue I keep bringing up, so I will bring it up again: How can we trust those Muslims who claim to be peaceful, but are intimidated by the violent ones? They excuse their silence by saying that they are in fear, so why should we trust them, then?

    “Rather, I meant in self defense, if an american hurts a muslim’s feelings,What about when a muslim kills Americans? Don’t we get the same excuse, then? Why is it only muslims can react that way? then a muslim will feel as though they are un-american and begin to dislike americans.This is exactly why muslims are becoming more and more disliked. It is because of what they have done and continue to do. If you read one of the documents I provided, it lists harassment issues that muslims in new york face (and there is a very large muslim community there).They need to stand up for America, then, and speak in a very strong voice against the violent ones. It would also help if they turned in the violent ones to the authorities. When that happens, the “harrassment” will stop. I know that more than 65% of muslims have faced prejudice after 9-11 and a lot of them have had name-calling and violent incidents against them.It’s not prejudice if we can’t tell them apart from the ones who want to kill us: it is common sense. If an American held a knife up to you, wouldn’t you hate Americans?”No, unless he told me that Americans wanted to kill everyone who wasn’t an American. Lacking that, I would hate the individual who held up the knife. The muslims who don’t hate us and want to kill us must distance themselves from the ones who do. Why do you have such a hard time understanding this simple fact?
    It is insane to reach out to those who have killed and tortured us.

  • http://jihadwatch.org/ Joe Riley

    2Hotel9

    1 in 8,0000…….. 250 in 8,000.

    Mathematical statistics are pretty darn straight-forward.

    Nevertheless, I’m sure there will still be er….uh…(gotta be nice here) people who will question those accurate statistics, implying that your sources “must” be racists, Muslim-hating, conservative websites that deceitfully try to substantiate negative characteristics of Islam.

    What most “serious” commenters should and “do” provide is debate and discussion based in history that reflects an accurate retelling of the past rather than marching orders for the present.

    What these others suggest/propose (as contradictory evidence) is nothing more than politically motivated inaccuracies, long-winded rants, convenient omissions and substitutions of partisanship for objectivity and opinions based on subjective feelings.

    Their statements are full of mixed metaphors, incongruent analogies and flawed logic.

    They attempt to rewrite history so that it can somehow serve “a social aim,” rather than allowing history to be a detached chronicling of the past.

    They continue, insufferably, to draw moral equivalencies between American values and Muslim beliefs, and/or between Christendom and Islam that don’t exist.

    You see, to them and their Muslim friends what “realistic” people believe to be true is quite different from what they think is true.

    And, since no-one has the right to say that their version of truth, right and wrong is any better than other people’s, than anything can be true or false depending on situational or contextual subjective perspectives.

    Here is a great example of how “Islam” changes people:

    A nice little quote from Yusuf Islam, formerly the pop star Cat Stevens, which concisely sums up peaceful Islam.

    To a group of Muslim students at London’s Kingston Polytechnic: The Qur’an makes it clear, if someone defames the Prophet, then he must die.”

    Also when the Salman Rushdie fatwa was first promoted to the Islamic world in 1989, Yusuf Islam (Cat Stevens)”peacefully” threatened the life of author Farrukh Dhondy on a UK TV panel.

    Again, there will be people who question the integrity and veracity of the source because it doesn’t agree with their skewed view of reality.

    Unfortunately, this stifles debate and makes it quite futile.

  • 2Hotel9

    SS, your different “veiwpoint” is dumb. I believe that is the gist of Joe’s comments to you. Now, back to your point about Muslims in the military of the US. Yes, their are Muslims in our military, and they work out to about 1 in 8,0000 of the baseline Muslim population in North America. Those who openly support Fundamentalist Islam are 250 in 8,000. Not my numbers, darlin’, these are CAIR’s numbers. Take you infantile argument to them. To reiterate, tiny minority of American/Canadian Muslims fighting against terrorism, numericaly larger minority of American/Canadian Muslims supports terrorism, vast majority of American/Canadian Muslims hiding under the fence. Which way, historically speaking, will the vast majority in hiding and denial swing? Hint, look to the ME and Indonesia for a clue.

  • Friend of USA

    What is a moderate muslim?

    I know! I know !

    It’s one that uses moderate sized rocks when stoning a woman to death!

    ( I’m kidding of course. I know there are a lot of good Muslims.)

  • robert108

    ss: My differentiation was about the muslims who will knuckle under to the radicals; I asked you why we should trust any of them until they have proved to us that they are willing and able to stand against their radical bretheren. Our lives are at stake here.

  • 2Hotel9

    Oh, yea! Three strangers strike up a conversation in the airport passenger lounge in Bozeman, Montana, awaiting their flights. One is an American Indian passing through from Lame Deer. Another is a Cowboy on his way to Billings for a livestock show, and the third is an Arab student on his way to Montana State University. Their discussion drifts to their diverse cultures. Soon, the two Westerners learn that the Arab is a devout, radical Muslim and the conversation falls into an uneasy lull. The wind outside is blowing tumbleweeds around and the old windsock is flapping, but still no plane arrives. The Cowboy stretches out and pulls his hat down over his eyes. Finally the Amer Indian clears his throat and softly says” At one time here my people were many, but sadly now we are few.” The Muslim student raises an eyebrow and leans forward,”Once my people were few,”he sneers,”and now we are many. Why do you suppose that is?” The Cowboy shifts his toothpick and from the darkness beneath his hat he drawls,”Thats ’cause we ain’t played cowboys and Muslims yet, but I do believe its a-comin’.”

  • student student

    I prefer to differentiate between radical muslims and other muslims on at least the basis of the facts I have given of muslims serving in the American Military and being willing to do community service for America.

  • http://jihadwatch.org/ Joe Riley

    l’étudiant d’étudiant est un art de l’auto-portrait- étourdi foutu juste, sanctimonious, arrogant, libéral, idiot, imbécile mentalement malade et avec émotion non équilibré.

    Kursteilnehmerkursteilnehmer ist ein fucking geistloser Selbst righteous, sanctimonious, arrogant, liberal, idiotic, geistlich kranker und emotional unausgeglichener Schwachkopf.

  • http://www.museumofleftwinglunacy.com/archives/2004/10/teresa_urges_de.html Dirty Jack Cash

    Student says:

    Have you ever studied Islam?
    I’ve had class projects on Islam

    Whoopi- a class project-now that certainly makes her an expert on Islam wouldn’t you say?—–man oh man!!!

    Try this on you for size.

    With confidence, American Congress for Truth founder Brigitte Gabriel rebukes the American public for being “weak, asleep or careless” in the face of Muslim terrorism.

    A Christian survivor of the vicious civil war between Lebanese Christians and Muslims in the 1970s, Gabriel leans on her own terrifying experiences to condemn Muslims.

    The U.S. is “facing total destruction” at the hands of people who are uncultured and cruel, and prescribes such solutions as “profile, profile and profile,” and banning “hate education” in Islamic institutions.

    “Gabriel eloquently reminds America what is truly at stake in this struggle against terrorism: our families, our way of life, and our hopes.

    Ms. Gabriel’s personal account of her own experience is riveting, compelling and spellbinding. This is a must read for the entire American public . . . This book contains monumental revelations that will shock and disturb you.
    But it is also a story of an indomitable spirit–Brigitte’s– that will move you.”

    “Brigitte Gabriel’s story is at once intensely personal and possessing global significance . . . the story of her family and her childhood encapsulates the threat that faces the entire free world today.

    Brigitte Gabriel’s words should be read, and studied carefully, by all the law enforcement and government officials of the West — as well as by everyone who values freedom.”

    This is much more than a project .

    She actually “LIVED” it!!!

    Do you know the difference between a class project and “real life?”

    I would not say that 85% of Muslims want to kill us

    More expert analysis from a colossal intellect.


    if an American hurts a Muslim’s feelings, then a Muslim will feel as though they are un-American and begin to dislike Americans

    Feelings??? Hurt Muslim’s feelings? Did she really post this to a blog? This is hilarious.
    Her growing arrogance is definitely suppressing her sense of embarrassment.

    I know that more than 65% of Muslims have faced prejudice after 9-11

    more “FEELINGS” I guess???? Quite clearly B.S

    if an American held a knife up to you, wouldn’t you hate Americans?

    Knowing that my rapist was in a military family did not make me respect the military as much. .

    Whoa—- some deep seated personal issues here.

  • 2Hotel9

    And no one here said ALL Muslims are bad, stupid stupid. Only those carrying out terrorist attacks, and those taking no action to stop them. Which only covers about 85%. Here is a suggestion, get your business professor to assist you with learning basic math, and your literature professor to assist you with basic reading comprehension. Then get back to us.

  • student student

    Muslims values do not focus on Jihad. They focus on helping the community through charity, have you read any of the articles I provided, one of which had president Bush’s comments in it? Do you dare disagree with President Bush? If you do, I see that you don’t fully support the war on terror and you best keep your opinion to yourself.

  • 2Hotel9

    Joe, I will be the first to say the source is racist. CAIR, Council on American Islamic Relations. Their solution to global terrorism is for all non-Muslims to immediately submit to the nearest Wahabi Deathcult Imam. We will all be so much happier living as slaves of the Islamic Caliphate, don’t ya know.

  • http://jihadwatch.org/ Joe Riley

    Golly Gee Whiz Bezu you sure are being mean.
    I have a friend that’s a Muslim and she’s a real nice person- so none of this can possibly be true.

    Also, my sister’s girlfriend is going to marry a guy in prison who was convicted of murder.
    She says he’s just badly misunderstood and is really just a sweet gentle guy and she wants people to stop criticizing him

  • student student

    What about when a muslim kills Americans? Don’t we get the same excuse, then? Why is it only muslims can react that way?

    Anyone has the right to defend themselves. However, when you misplace your anger onto someone who was not involved, that is not the right thing to do. I am discussing your general categorization that all Muslims are terrorists or help terrorists. If Muslims thought that way about us, we’d be just as offended.

    We have managed to take what a certain group of Muslims has done, and applied it to the entire rest of the religion as a blanket statement for all Muslims. Some Muslims does not equal all Muslims.

    This is exactly why muslims are becoming more and more disliked. It is because of what they have done and continue to do.

    So, muslims are becoming more and more disliked because people are calling them names like “terrorist” in the work place, and throwing garbage at them? The fact that they put up with this violence and abuse is what makes you hate Muslims? I don’t think you got the idea that I was trying to communicate…

    They need to stand up for America, then, and speak in a very strong voice against the violent ones. It would also help if they turned in the violent ones to the authorities. When that happens, the “harrassment” will stop.

    I have read in my newspaper at home about muslims who have turned other muslims in. Have all of you turned a blind eye to the help we have recieved from all of these Muslims? The media needs to shape up and publish more articles about these Muslims you don’t seem to hear anything about. Then again, you’d call it “leftist” and ignore it.

    There have also been many Muslim communities speaking out against violence. There are plenty of sites that denounce the terrorists and also claim that what they follow are not Muslim values. Let me ask you something- do you harass Muslims because instead of fighting, they go to work just like everyone else? I don’t think anyone DESERVES harassment. Not even an innocent Muslim. Harassment is not self-defense, and self-defense is only used on those who could possibly cause harm.

    It’s not prejudice if we can’t tell them apart from the ones who want to kill us: it is common sense.

    It’s not prejudice if I can’t tell a black man apart from a mugger on the street. It is common sense.

    A lot of Muslims actually don’t come from afghanistan or iraq, and are white people. There are also black muslims, Indian muslims, and so on. That is also provided for in one of my links.

    The muslims who don’t hate us and want to kill us must distance themselves from the ones who do.

    I don’t know any muslims who have ties to terrorists. Just because there are mosques of innocent people does not mean these people are supporting terrorists. They could be just going about their daily business critiquing others and procrastinating just like the rest of us. It’s not like I sit here and say “oh, I want to meet that christian terrorist in Ireland” just because I come from a christian background.

    It is insane to reach out to those who have killed and tortured us.

    I agree, but again, only a small minority of muslims are carrying out attacks and believing the extremist idealogy. Do what you can to support the ones who won’t turn their backs on you, and they will do what they can to support you.

  • 2Hotel9

    See, a continuation of her defense of terrorists. Every single thing stupidstupid posts comes down to defending Wahabi Deathcult rapists and murderers. She absolutely refuses to admit “moderate Muslims” cower in abject fear of terrorists. Even though she claims they outnumber Wahabi Deathculters. By her own words she admits that only a tiny minority will stand against the rapist murderer wackjobs. Her big plan is to get down on our knees and beg them to please not torture and rape and murder us. Submit to the dictates of Wahabi Islam. And she really believes that by begging them to not torture and rape and murder us they will not. Absolute and totally naive insanity. And yet we will continue to protect stupidstupid and all those idiots like her from her own stupidity. And all the while her and her ilk will scream and screech and wail that all we have to do is surrender and all will be sunshine and happiness. Absolute and totally naive insanity.

  • student student

    The only thing the media really focuses on is the Jihadist muslims, which are not the majority of muslims. Of course, what sells the newspapers is the shock value of negative events. You will not find many positive things in a newspaper or on the tv, and if you do, let me know the statistics of how many negative events there are compared to the number of positive events.

  • http://jihadwatch.org/ Joe Riley

    2Hotel9

    TWO ARABS AND A MARINE

    Two Arabs boarded a flight out of London. One took a window seat and the
    other sat next to him in the middle seat.

    Just before takeoff, a Marine sat down in the aisle seat.

    After takeoff, the Marine kicked his shoes off, wiggled his toes and

    Was settling in when the Arab in the window seat said, “I need to get up and get a coke.”

    “Don’t get up,” said the Marine, “I’m in the aisle seat, I’ll get it for you.”

    As soon as he left, one of the Arabs picked up the Marines shoe and spat in it.

    When the Marine returned with the coke, the other Arab said, “That looks good, I’d really like one, too.”

    Again, the Marine obligingly went to fetch it.

    While he was gone the other Arab picked up the Marines other shoe and spat in it.

    When the Marine returned, they all sat back and enjoyed the flight.

    As the plane was landing, the Marine slipped his feet into his shoes and knew immediately what had happened.

    “Why does it have to be this way?” he asked. “How long must this go on?

    This fighting between our nations? This hatred? This animosity?
    This spitting in shoes and pissing in cokes?”

    THE MARINES WILL ALWAYS WIN

  • Awakened Warrior

    I apoligize, I found more than 10 links showing that there were muslims active in the military.
    Unfortunately, the site was down and did not post my links.

    I also found a link about discrimination against muslims in New York, some stating that with all the violent threats against them, it is pushing some over the edge.
    [why am I not surprised--it's our fault!]

    I will try to find these back, since you don’t believe that

    ANY

    muslims are good muslims.
    student student on September 9, 2006 at 9:10 PM

    Hmmmm….

    Army Soldier Is Convicted In Attack on Fellow Troops

    An Army sergeant who wanted to stop U.S. troops from killing his fellow Muslims was convicted by a military jury yesterday of murdering two colleagues and wounding 14 other soldiers in a chaotic grenade and rifle attack two days after the United States invaded Iraq.

    Hasan Akbar, who turned 34 yesterday, faces the death penalty for the killings at Camp Pennsylvania in Kuwait, which prosecutors said were carefully planned to achieve “maximum carnage.”

    The jury, which deliberated for 2 1/2 hours at Fort Bragg in Fayetteville, N.C., before delivering its guilty verdicts on murder and attempted-murder charges, will reconvene Monday for a death-penalty hearing.


    Imagine that!!!!

  • robert108

    ss: As long as the so-called “moderate muslims” can be intimidated into either non-action or cooperation by the violent muslims, the moderates can’t be trusted. What they say about themselves to us isn’t meaningful; what they do when they are tapped by the terrorist is what matters. They need to prove themselves with actions, not words. Our lives and our civilization is at stake.

  • http://sayanythingblog.com robport

    Joe, thanks.

    Basically, we try to live by the little poem that’s at the top of the comment section:

    Grant me the serenity to ignore the trolls,
    the courage to debate with honest opponents,
    and the wisdom to know the difference.

    If someone is bugging you, just try to ignore ‘em if you don’t think it’s worth your time to actually engage in debate with them.

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