Home Mobile Archives Reader Blogs Register Login

Friday, April 29, 2005

Misleading Headline

Hmm...

Bush Social Security Plan Would Cut Future Benefits

President Bush called on Congress last night to curtail future Social Security benefits for all but low-income retirees in an urgent new effort to address the popular program's shaky finances.

With virtually every Democrat, as well as many Republicans, opposed to his plan for private investment accounts, Bush sought to shift the focus of the Social Security debate to a new proposal that would reduce benefits more as workers' incomes rise.

"I believe the reformed system should protect those who depend on Social Security the most," he said in a nationally televised news conference. "So I propose a Social Security system in the future where benefits for low-income workers will grow faster than benefits for people who are better off." This is the first time Bush has backed a specific plan to reduce future benefits for tens of millions of Americans.


The problem with this headline and article is that referring to Bush's proposal as a simple "cut in benefits" is a little misleading. When the media and opponents to Bush's plan (though they seem to be one in the same given the tone of most reporting about the issue) they often leave out one word when referring to the proposed "cuts."

This, from the same article, is more to the point:

His proposal to reduce guaranteed benefits for everyone but the working poor is designed to provide specific direction to Congress on how to shore up the system -- and pressure Democrats to support a plan that protects those earning the least.


The only part of your Social Security benefit that will be cut under the President's plan (unless you are low-income) is the guaranteed benefit. Or, in other words, the part of your benefit that you can't invest. You will have another part of your benefit with which you can do one of a few things. Like invest it in the private stock market and earn a return that will make your overall benefit (guaranteed plus the optional portion) higher than it would have been under the current system.

But do you think anybody in the media is going to focus on that little tid-bit of information? No. Of course not. All we're going to hear about in the next couple of weeks is how the President is going to cut your Social Security benefits. Which, sadly, pays a great disservice to what is otherwise a rather innovative fix to an ailing government program.

Comments

Avatar for Mark J

Nor does it take into account that if nothing is done, like the Democrats want, people will still face a cut in guaranteed benefits, but without anything to supplant it.

Mark J on April 30, 2005 at 01:05 am
Avatar for Mike on Hilton Head

Hey MARK: Is THIS an example of media bias?

Mike on Hilton Head on April 30, 2005 at 04:05 am
Avatar for JG

What is shocking is that AWOL George considers everyone who makes more than $20K to be “better off.”

You should think about that for a moment; I can safely say that there isn’t anyplace in the US where $20K/year isn’t anything but living close to poverty.  Even if you live in ND or the god-forsaken SC.

AWOL George’s plan now means that if you’re anywhere above the poverty line, you will almost certainly see a cut in benefits.  If you’re making over, say, $50K--not exactly Saudi Royal Family money--you’ll see a cut of around 40%.

JG on April 30, 2005 at 05:04 am
Avatar for Aaron

Funny, I’ve never heard the president get into such specifics.  Do tell, JG, where do you get those numbers from?

Aaron on April 30, 2005 at 05:04 am
Avatar for JG

Aaron: That’s because you’re dishonest, Aaron. You hear what you think you want and ignore that which is inconvenient.

As you wish to ignore, AWOL George mentioned a plan modelled after the so-called ‘Pozen Plan.’

The Pozen Plan--named after Robert Pozen, oneof AWOL George’s SS advisors--proposes keeping current SS benefits as they are basing benefits on wage indexing for low-income earners.  Higher income workers would see their benefits reduced by indexing them on a mix of wage and price indexing.

According to the Pozen plan (or the “better off” as phrased by AWOL George) higher income earners are those earning more than about $19,980.

JG on April 30, 2005 at 06:04 am
Avatar for Aaron

According to the Pozen plan (or the “better off� as phrased by AWOL George) higher income earners are those earning more than about $19,980.

That’s just dishonest… Pozen favors price indexing with a twist he calls ‘’progressive indexation.” He would allow low-wage workers—those with average career earnings of less than $25,000—to stick with wage indexation. Those with incomes above $113,000 would be subjected to full price indexation. Everyone in the middle would experience a blend of the two.

That 25k line is just where the mix starts… Where do you find Bush calling that “the better off” anyway? Got a quote?

Aaron on April 30, 2005 at 06:05 am
Avatar for likwidshoe

Aaron: That’s because you’re dishonest, Aaron.

Hahaha.  And then the troll proceeds with…

As you wish to ignore, AWOL George...

Hahaha.  “AWOL George”.  Talk about dishonesty.

likwidshoe on April 30, 2005 at 06:05 am
Avatar for likwidshoe

People with low self esteem often make baseless attacks and insults.  This is particularly true when it comes to trolls.

What is a troll?

The term “troll” can mean a number of different things, but in essence, a troll is a person who aims to have ‘pleasure’ at your expense. There are two main types of trolls:

1. people who are psychologically disturbed, and seek to feel good by making other list members feel bad.  This is a sort of “psycho troll”, whose deception involves deceiving themselves as well as others.  In this respect, they are no different to the sorts of people we meet in everyday life who are disturbed - some of them are easy to spot, and others aren’t. 

Such people may even use their real names on the internet, and they may not even realise that they are “trolling” because it is all subconscious.
2. people who pretend to be someone that they are not - they create personae that you think are real, but they know is fictitious.

This fits “JG” or “Jadegold” well.  Psychologically disturbed and seeks to feel good by making other commentators feel bad.  Psycho troll.  Self deception includes the belief that he has served in the U.S. Armed Forces.  “JG” or “Jadegold” is easy to spot as a troll because of his particularly egregious nature.  It’s quite possible that the troll in question may not even realise that he is trolling because it may be a subconscious disorder.  As such, we should remember to treat “JG” or “Jadegold” with kid gloves because essentially - he’s mentally disabled.

likwidshoe on April 30, 2005 at 07:04 am
Avatar for JG

Once more, Aaron demonstrates he should not be entrusted with any level of responsibility more than “Supersize that, sir?”

The Boston Globe article refers to “average career earnings.” My figures, from here:

http://www.cbpp.org/3-21-05socsec.htm

refer to 2005, or today’s, earnings.

Does Aaron seriously believe using $25K average career earnings makes his and AWOL George’s case any stronger or more attractive?

Yup, I’m convinced.

JG on April 30, 2005 at 07:05 am
Avatar for Mike on Hilton Head

You really do have to wonder why folks like JG just go out of their way to insult and offend everyone who disagrees with them. He invalidates ever argument he might want to make by tossing such bile along with his recycled talking point bilge.

Did he get this assignment from the Democrats Underground or Daily Koss and he has to go back there and report?

It’s such a disgrace that with the important life and death issues this nation needs to debate that folks like this waste so much effort and undermine the ability of the political process to move forward in any positive, meaningful way.

Frankly, when people that that low caliber spew their poison on my site I block them faster than Hillary Clinton can commit campaign finance fraud.

Mike on Hilton Head on April 30, 2005 at 08:05 am
Avatar for Aaron

Does Aaron seriously believe using $25K average career earnings makes his and AWOL George’s case any stronger or more attractive?

Yup, I’m convinced.

The point was not to refute your numbers, you’re changing the subject.  You said:

“According to the Pozen plan (or the “better offâ€? as phrased by AWOL George) higher income earners are those earning more than about $19,980.”

And I was simply pointing out that that 20-25k number is just where the mix starts and has nothing to do with being “better off”

Do you have any evidence Bush finds people making 20k a year “the better off”?

Didn’t think so…

Aaron on April 30, 2005 at 11:05 am
Avatar for that colored fella

That’s because no one believed Kerry would restrain himself enough to only touch those making that much money….

And, with polls showing Americans overwhelmingly disapproving of Bush’s Social Security plan (among other things), you expect them to believe he will restrain himself?

that colored fella on April 30, 2005 at 01:04 pm
Avatar for that colored fella

Live by the sword Rob, die by the sword!

But do you think anybody in the media is going to focus on that little tid-bit of information? No. Of course not. All we’re going to hear about in the next couple of weeks is how the President is going to cut your Social Security benefits.

I perfectly understand Bush’s plan is to lower the guaranteed benefits of middle to upper income wage earners as they continue to make more money.

But, remember back in the election when Kerry proposed rolling back part of the tax cuts, by raising taxes on those making $200K and up? You Republicans went around screaming how the Dems were gonna raise everybody’s taxes!

that colored fella on April 30, 2005 at 01:04 pm
Avatar for Aaron

America elected Bush partly based on SS.  It was part of the package.  It is up to Bush now to lead this idea into the Congress and get legislation passed.

Polls have been mixed, mostly.  As recently as a month ago, those who would be effected by the option of personal accounts (those under 55) overwhelmingly supported the idea.  Today, the idea is supported by less than a majority (not overwhelming when you exclude those above 55, but they shouldn’t be considered in the polling because they’re not effected)

Aaron on April 30, 2005 at 01:05 pm
Avatar for Aaron

You Republicans went around screaming how the Dems were gonna raise everybody’s taxes!

That’s because no one believed Kerry would restrain himself enough to only touch those making that much money....

Aaron on April 30, 2005 at 01:05 pm
Avatar for that colored fella

America elected Bush partly based on SS. It was part of the package. It is up to Bush now to lead this idea into the Congress and get legislation passed.

Mule Fritters Aaron!!

It’s obvious Bush left out the details in his campaign stump speeches, because now that Americans know more of his plan, they have clearly rejected it.

And, it’s customary that when you cite polling numbers, to at least name the poll, or better yet, link to it. But, I hope you have enough sense not to be citing Fox News/Opinion Dynamics, at least.

that colored fella on April 30, 2005 at 04:04 pm
Avatar for Aaron

TCF~

I’ll just refer you back to the link you provided, it provides number to past as well as current poll numbers.  If you eliminate 55+ people, the numbers are higher because much of the opposition is the elderly (even though Bush has repeated time and time again they won’t be effected)

And, for the record, Bush has left out ALL detail… basically up until last night.  He has done this intentionally for, as he said last night, the details need to be negotiated in Congress.  His job is to push the adgenda forward and put pressure on members of congress and to lead the country to support legislation.  Which so far, he’s doing pretty well IMHO

Aaron on April 30, 2005 at 04:05 pm
Avatar for that colored fella

Taking a good look at the link I provided beforehand Aaron, I’m not surprised by your distorted interpretation. If you do take the history of the polling as a whole, you’ll see a consistent and steady decline of support for Bush’s position, across the board! The only survey that comes close to supporting your argument, is of course Fox/OP. And, your separating out of the mix those over 55, assumes everyone operates solely out of self-interest on this issue.

And, your not seeing this proposal as the political trial balloon it is, not surprising. Remember, Bush’s plan was to eliminate Social Security.

that colored fella on April 30, 2005 at 05:04 pm
Avatar for Aaron

You’re right, TCF, the trend has been decline lately.  I haven’t desputed that.  I simply said that it wasn’t very long enough this idea had majority support.  I hope it regains that majority support soon as the Congress starts offering up details of its negotiations…

Remember, Bush’s plan was to eliminate Social Security.

Bullshit.  What leftist-looney site did you read that from?  With those kind of accusations, you need to provide quotes or something to back up your claims (which I’m telling you right now you don’t have)

This had been a civil discussion til now, I’m sorry you had to throw in crap like that…

Aaron on April 30, 2005 at 05:05 pm
Avatar for Aaron

Yes

Aaron on April 30, 2005 at 06:04 pm
Avatar for that colored fella

Bullshit. What leftist-looney site did you read that from?

I’ll rephrase.

His plan is to eliminate Social Security as we know it, and replace it with a system of individual private accounts - but, still call it Social Security.

Happy?

that colored fella on April 30, 2005 at 06:04 pm
Avatar for that colored fella

In principle, what do you disagree with about that statement you made about the SS reform?

Instead Aaron,

Why don’t you explain a few things about Bush’s plan:

Why have the American people so roundly rejected what they know of his proposal, so far?

How does he expect to convince an overwhelmingly number of Americans who have never played the stock market (let alone understand it), to invest their SS benefits in it?

Why has he not addressed what happens to those who lose their money?

Why can’t private accounts be an option or voluntary, offered in addition to SS?

If the economy is so good, where’s the surplus to keep SS solvent for the near future?

Social Security is the only government program showing a surplus currently. The Bush administration is running record deficits otherwise, why are Americans suppose to trust him?

that colored fella on April 30, 2005 at 07:04 pm
Avatar for Aaron

His plan is to eliminate Social Security as we know it, and replace it with a system of individual private accounts - but, still call it Social Security.

In principle, what do you disagree with about that statement you made about the SS reform? 

(Normally, I have a hard time understanding what you are saying, but we’re connecting good tonight. Don’t know what’s different.  Let’s keep this rolling)

Aaron on April 30, 2005 at 07:05 pm
Avatar for Mike on Hilton Head

Hey colored fella: Where’d you get the idea that Bush is out to replace Social Security with private accounts?

Last time I checked he offered to let people SELECT to place a SMALL PORTION of the money currently being stolen by SS into private accounts.

How that gets to replacing the current system is beyond my humble means to understand.

Also, as you are “that colored fella” I would imagine you are aware that more males in your demographic are likely to die before ever collecting benefits and you’re merely working all your life to subsidize the cozy golden years of some old white woman in Duluth.

Would you rather pass A PORTION of your earnings on to your family or would you like to continue supporting mine?

Mike on Hilton Head on May 1, 2005 at 04:05 am
Avatar for Mike on Hilton Head

P.S. colored fella: Looks like you’re doing a fair job of picking and choosing polls that you like and excluding others… so I’d look long and hard in the mirror before you point out the shortcomings of Aaron…

But hey… I’m just a professional political hack that’s worked from the courthouse to the White House… what do I know?

Mike on Hilton Head on May 1, 2005 at 04:06 am
Avatar for JG

Actually, if Mikey knew anything about politics and DC, he’d know President Gore proposed tax-free personal account *in addition to* SS in the 2000 campaign.

But Mikey doesn’t and didn’t.

JG on May 1, 2005 at 05:05 am
Avatar for Aaron

No, no, no… I’m not at all interested in the politics of the matter right now.  Forget all that.

Just say, for instance, that Hillary Clinton ran with the platform you just described above:

[Her] Plan is to eliminate Social Security as we know it, and replace it with a system of individual private accounts - but, still call it Social Security.

If she did, would you support her doing so?  I’m assuming no, so why?

Aaron on May 1, 2005 at 05:05 am
Avatar for Mike on Hilton Head

I imagine that if Pres Hillary comes up with a SS plan the Dems will toss their previous objections to private accounts out the window.

Hillary is no fool, she’s learned how to triangulate. Just recall how hubby Bill stole welfare reform and made it his own....

The opposition to Bush’s plan is just another example of Nancy Reagan Democrats who “JUST SAY NO” and offer nothing else.

Mike on Hilton Head on May 1, 2005 at 05:05 am
Avatar for Aaron

Clinton did a pretty bad job of stealing Welfare reform… He vetoed it twice before signing it the third time (under re-election pressure)

Aaron on May 1, 2005 at 06:05 am
Avatar for JG

Mikey:Next time I’m at Hilton Head, I’ll let you carry my golf bag.

JG on May 1, 2005 at 12:05 pm
Avatar for Mike on Hilton Head

Typical racist piggery JG… no wonder your views are so easily dismissed!

Mike on Hilton Head on May 1, 2005 at 12:05 pm
Avatar for Mike on Hilton Head

Does it matter if anyone responds to pigs like JG? Sad is the word for these folks… oh well!

Mike on Hilton Head on May 1, 2005 at 12:06 pm
Avatar for Me

Both sides suck. It isnt a matter of left vs right anymore, it’s a matter of illuminati affiliated and non illuminati affiliated.

The left right debate is just a smokescreen. Clinton was just as owned as Bush (or Clear Channel for that matter)

Me on May 1, 2005 at 09:05 pm
Avatar for that colored fella

Last time I checked he offered to let people SELECT to place a SMALL PORTION of the money currently being stolen by SS into private accounts.

If his plan is not to gut Social Security, Mike on HH, then why has it been established his proposal will cost an estimated $3-5 Trillion dollars?

Also, if you go back and look at the polling links I’ve provided, they’re from the Polling Report website that tracks all the major surveys.

that colored fella on May 2, 2005 at 09:06 pm
Avatar for Mike on Hilton Head

cf: Social Security costs for the next decades runs into the TENS OF TRILLIONS. So putting a SMALL PORTION of that on a VOLUNTARY BASIS and giving the contributer OWNERSHIP seems like a GOOD IDEA to me.

Obviously you think the people cannot be trusted with their OWN MONEY and should not be given the option to do so.

Now, I thought is was the RELIGIOUS RIGHT that was out to impose their values on everyone… apparently you SOCIALISTS got there first.

Mike on Hilton Head on May 3, 2005 at 04:06 am
Avatar for that colored fella

cf: Social Security costs for the next decades runs into the TENS OF TRILLIONS. So putting a SMALL PORTION of that on a VOLUNTARY BASIS and giving the contributer OWNERSHIP seems like a GOOD IDEA to me.

Mike,

Got any evidence to back this up? What exactly are you saying? So, are you saying that giving retirees the option of putting a SMALL PORTION of their contributions into a private account, IN ADDITION to Social Security in it’s present form, is a good idea?

Btw, if nothing changes from Social Security’s current state, in 2042, it will still be 80% percent fundable. Meaning, with just one slight change such as raising the retirement age, it can be fully fundable 37 years from now.

that colored fella on May 7, 2005 at 03:06 am
Avatar for likwidshoe

Meaning, with just one slight change such as raising the retirement age, it can be fully fundable 37 years from now.

The Democrat solution to Social “Security” = raise taxes and raise the retirement age.  But there is no problem!

likwidshoe on May 7, 2005 at 04:05 am
Avatar for Mike on Hilton Head

Colored Fella: Why should I bother providing you the facts here...Facts don’t seem to matter to Democrats anyway…

Try the Congressional Budget Office if you need to educate yourself further on the matter…

Mike on Hilton Head on May 8, 2005 at 06:05 am
Page 1 of 1        

Post a Comment


Before commenting, please recite:

Grant me the serenity to ignore the trolls,
the courage to debate with honest opponents,
and the wisdom to know the difference.

Name   
Email   
URL   
Human?
  
 

Upload Image    

Remember my personal information

Notify me of follow-up comments?

Note: Notifications will only be sent to confirmed email addresses.