Say Anything Blog

The police with NO other evidence nor surveillance ask for warrant to break down their door and scare the old people.  This “judge” went ahead and gave them a blank check.

Er, sort of like the same thing that just hppened to the polygamist compound in Texas. Here’s more of a similarity:

The judge refused to talk to the press.  The police agency said that their cops did everything just fine. And the power company said it would have been irresponsible for them NOT to do what they did.

Anyobdy see anything wrong with BOTH issues? Oh, wait.....we’ll put your Fourth Amendment rights aside if we can claim it’s for the children - but not for drugs.

Get as mad at me as you want, but the Fourth Amendment is the Fourth Amendment. It doesn’t have degrees.

Election ‘08 - We Are So Screwed

Sorry....just sat through an entire day of an FBI seminar on civil rights.....and I stick to my opinion that the Texas issue is a travesty.

Election ‘08 - We Are So Screwed

We were the victims of a police invasion, although without a warrant. In our case, a neighbor called and said that I had killed my Mother and she knew this because no one was answering the phone at 9:30 at night. We had been out all evening visiting with family and did not get home until after 2 AM. At 8 AM I was rousted out of bed, thrown down and a 6’4” 250 lb. black deputy jumped on my back and then pummeled me and held my head into a down comforter until I could no longer breathe and went limp. I had no idea why they were there or even who they were at first and thought for sure I was going to be raped and killed. They then tried to rouse my 90 year old Mother, who was still asleep, and scared her so bad, she ended up in the hospital on a respirator. My son’s finance was also there visiting and they restrained her and told her if she said a word, she was next. I didn’t know a human could turn that white with fear until I saw her face.

They called it exigent circumstances and all the while I was being manhandled they were calling me the worst kinds of names, always starting with “you are an effin’ this or that.”

I sued. It took over 6 years, but I won my lawsuit. Of course, nothing will fix the permanent back injury that has left me partially disabled and ruined my life as I knew it and turned me into a nearly broke invalid suffering from diagnosed severe PTSD. And until the day she died at age 94, my Mother never went to bed again without a baseball bat under her covers. Bastards, all of them. These people will never fully get over this invasion. It is awful to go thru the rest of your life fearing the police more than you fear terrorists or criminals, but that is what happens.

Get as mad at me as you want, but the Fourth Amendment is the Fourth Amendment. It doesn’t have degrees.

The courts threw the 4th amendment under the truck when they allowed no-knock warrants.

It is awful to go thru the rest of your life fearing the police more than you fear terrorists or criminals, but that is what happens.

I think that is the definition of a police state.

Being liberal is never having to admit you’re wrong

Pal2Pal: I also recall not many years ago when many, many false charges of sexual abuse of children were being made against teachers and ministers, lives were ruined, and yet in most cases no credible evidence existed. After the fact, where could the falsely accused go to get their lives back, their reputations and their honor? They were tossed aside by an out of control legal system.

No matter the age or state of health, for a military man it is always glorious to tilt at windmills, rescue a fair Dulcinea and be a gallant knight in armor in a glorious cause.

I guess simply knocking on the door in your morning and asking to see your mother would have been above and beyond the call of duty.

The Debate is over!  Global Whining has been confirmed.

These people deserve to be handsomely compensated for the police abuse, the the taxpayers will ultimately foot the bill.  Maybe the judge, power company and the police should pay out of their own pockets, which would probably give them some incentive to do a real investigation before they act in the future.

"If the good men are silent only the wicked are heard.” - Edmund Burke

The police and courts are for the most part honest, hard working and decent; but, we will always have some people, a small minority that well feel the law does not apply to them, only their perceptions of right and wrong and that hurts us all.

No matter the age or state of health, for a military man it is always glorious to tilt at windmills, rescue a fair Dulcinea and be a gallant knight in armor in a glorious cause.

You’re too forgiving, Neiman.  The adage ‘one apple spoils the barrel’ still applies.  Besides police forces are always way too eager to cover the tracks of police that use unecessary force.

Being liberal is never having to admit you’re wrong

DocDave: (1) A million years ago, fresh out of the Marine Corps, I was a cop for a few years and met some great men in blue. (2) I must believe most of the people in law enforcement are good people, as I believe most Americans are good people; otherwise, I would hate to live without being able to trust the police.

No matter the age or state of health, for a military man it is always glorious to tilt at windmills, rescue a fair Dulcinea and be a gallant knight in armor in a glorious cause.

Sorry, doc, but that’s bullshit. NOBODY will put their carreers, their futures, and the welfare of their families on the line to cover for some fool. If they do, they’re stupid. Those days are over, and (with respect)you’ve been watching too many movies.

Election ‘08 - We Are So Screwed

I wouldn’t say that cops are willing to perform a cover up, but I wouldn’t think they’re above giving eachother the benefit of the doubt.

The Debate is over!  Global Whining has been confirmed.

pil, reread toots post.  He wrote The police agency said that their cops did everything just fine. If that doesn’t sound like a cover-up than please tell me what it is.

I don’t watch movies but I do read a lot and I often see the above quoted as the official pronouncement in many cases of suspected police malfeasence.

Being liberal is never having to admit you’re wrong

Doc,

Of course they’re going to say that and stick to it utill they can’t any longer, but that’s not cop specific. ANY comapny, right up to MacDonald’s and Campbell’s Soup, will stick to the company line until they can’t anymore. That’s not a “cover up”. It’s either genuinely thinking you did nothing wrong or ducking, saying what you have to say, and hoping for the best until the storm blows over. Whatever company you work for does the same.

A cover up implies lies and illegality and I’ll say it again - NOBODY will risk their careers these days for that. I sure as hell won’t - and people like me make sure others don’t, either.

Election ‘08 - We Are So Screwed

So the police agency says they did everything ok. 

Pilgrim in your professional opinion is it legitimate to raid an home with no evidence besides an “odor?”

Someone needs to tell the judge that not all bad odors are attributed to meth manufacture.

The Debate is over!  Global Whining has been confirmed.

Sorry, doc, but that’s bullshit. NOBODY will put their carreers, their futures, and the welfare of their families on the line to cover for some fool. If they do, they’re stupid. Those days are over, and (with respect)you’ve been watching too many movies.

Oh if that were only true. One of the reasons it took me 6 years to get my lawsuit thru the courts was because for the first three years, the case was postponed over and over. The excuse was that they kept assigning new attorneys for the cops and the county and they had to have time to “get up to speed.” In the meantime, we were being harassed by phone and at night with cops coming and prowling around the property, knocking on the door at midnight claiming the were responding to calls from our address, etc. We finally sold the house and moved to another county at my attorney’s suggestion. Then we found out that the judge who was postponing the case was the sister-in-law of one of the two cops. We got a change of venue and a new judge who gave the other side 3 months to get their act together or else. It wasn’t until then that we could even get our hands on the police report or find out the full names of the two deputies. And when I tried at first to file a formal complaint with their supervisor, I was told that I shouldn’t “if I knew what was good for me.”

Believe me, if our experience here in CA is anything like what these people will be facing, they’ll try everything to make it look like they deserved what happened to them. And with a judge already in the mix, the circled wagons will be 3 or 4 levels deep and so will be their pockets. It is even hard to find an attorney willing to take on the police or a sitting judge. They’re all worried because after your case they’ll have others and it is always about their own reputation and pocketbook, which at first is maddening, but afterwards you realize their fears were valid.

Oh and one more thing. As soon as I could, I went directly to the hospital emergency room and the doctor there reported that I had been the victim of an assault. He tried to get the police, as required by law, to come take pictures of my bruises and the copies of my xrays, and they refused, saying “she’s a liar,” so the doctor found a Polaroid and took the pictures himself. Later, they tried to smear the emergency room doctor when his name appeared on our witness list.

Of course they’re going to say that

Here is where you are wrong, pil.  Of course they DON’T have to say that.  They should say ‘The case is being investigated and we’ll give you the results when it is completed’.  I’ve seen words to that affect too but all too infrequently.

Yes, companies do it too but that doesn’t make it right.  Besides we should expect more from the police who, believe it or not, are our servants, somethings that many cops seem to have forgotten.  What pal2 and others have suffered should be dealth with directly by the authorities which would eliminate the need for them to seek justice through the civil courts.

Being liberal is never having to admit you’re wrong

Neiman - I also recall not many years ago when many, many false charges of sexual abuse of children were being made against teachers and ministers...

Good memory. In the late 1980’s, there were a series of sexual exploitation and Satanic cult claims towards those who worked in child day care centers. It was later found out that the children were coached and that it is really easy to put suggestions into the heads of children, even when one is just trying to get to the truth. Look up the name of FBI agent “Kenneth Lanning” to read more about the Satanic child abuse scare of the late 80’s.

When it comes to claims of drugs or child abuse, we have no 4th Amendment rights.

Doc,

There is a difference between defending a lawsuit and a cover-up. But you’re right about two things: One is that a situation should be dealt with in an up-front manner. And, two is that if Pal is being factual then what happened there was a travesty as well.

All that being said, the vast majority of cops are decent people who are as interested in preserving your rights as you are.

Election ‘08 - We Are So Screwed

Sue.

The problem with suing is that the public employees get off scot free.  Maybe they don’t like the process but it’s not that it hurts them in the pocketbook.

Suing the power company might help a bit.  But really it’s the judge and the decision making police that are at fault.  Do they care?

The Debate is over!  Global Whining has been confirmed.

At 8 AM I was rousted out of bed, thrown down and a 6’4” 250 lb. black deputy jumped on my back and then pummeled me

I’m just wondering how that was different or more traumatizing than if a white deputy had been doing the pummeling.

A friend had a similar experience after a purchase at WalMart.  Late one night he bought some cold medicine and some Acetone for cleaning paint brushes; he made and sold aftermarket fiberglass aircraft parts on the side, and had a cold.  A little while after he got back to his shop and started work, the police showed up and asked to look around.  At least they didn’t come in with guns blazing!

I remember buying batteries, light bulbs, and rubbing alcohol on a Wal-Mart trip.  I got flagged by their point-of-sale system too, because without explanation a manager had to come over and look thru the list od items.  I have my PO box on my checks and ID, so I didn’t have to worry about a knock on the door later.  I helped produce a meth education video last year, so I knew darn well that my combination of items was going to flag something in their computer.

Pilgrim,

Just out of curiosity, would you participate in a no-knock warrant?  And if you refused, what would be the consequences to you and your career?

That’s not a set up to anything, just something I would like to know.

All I can say is, I have nothing in my house to hide, but if some stranger busts into my house and my bedroom in the middle of the night, one of two things will happen.  Either, that person will have me restrained before I can react or I will shoot them.  And it won’t be one shot either.  It will be a double tap and as soon as I’m sure they are down, I will be searching for other intruders.  If they happen to be wearing a uniform, then I might be willing to shout out that I’m armed and that an officer has been shot.

A friend had a similar experience after a purchase at WalMart.

Last year my mom went to Walmart to buy some cold medicine for my family and a bottle of night-quil for me to take back up to college.  The clerk wouldn’t let her buy two bottles because it could be used for meth.  I thought people were innocent until proven guilty.

Liberty is always taken away in the name of safety and the children. (and I’m not talking about the patriot act you libs)

A political party cannot be all things to all people. It must represent certain fundamental beliefs which must not be compromised to political expediency, or simply to swell its numbers.

yes you are you con.

“If a conservative is still a republican after the last 13 years, he is blind to the fact that his party of choice has failed him utterly.” – Realitybasedbob

Dougee that’s the law, not Walmarts fault.

However I understand from talking to some Meth guys that the Meth Watch program has had the effect of having the stuff manufactured “down south” and shipped up here.

I guess that’s something. 

But I’m the kind of guy if I need one I buy two so I don’t run out.  However with young kids the inconvenience may be worth it.

The Debate is over!  Global Whining has been confirmed.

The crimes against our Constitutional rights are always committed in the name of “prevention”, as if such a thing is possible.  Instead, like with gun laws, we have a very small tail wagging a very large dog.  I’m sure a tiny percentage of cold medicine sales are used for meth production, but is that an excuse to judge the vast majority that aren’t?

"If the good men are silent only the wicked are heard.” - Edmund Burke

All that being said, the vast majority of cops are decent people who are as interested in preserving your rights as you are.

pil, I never intend to imply anything different.  My comments are really directed to the leaders who are more concerned of their image than they are of resolving an issue truthfully and cleanly.

Being liberal is never having to admit you’re wrong

kbeil,

Just out of curiosity, would you participate in a no-knock warrant?  And if you refused, what would be the consequences to you and your career?

I have participated in no-knock warrants. But those cannot be based on an anonymous call.

Here’s how it works:

I’ve participated in two different kinds of no knocks - one for a violent fugitive that was known to be in a house (we had eyes-on so we knew he was in there). A stakeout was commenced so that if he left the house we’d know. We went and got our stuff, kicked the door, swarmed him, and took him down before he could arm himself. Nobody was hurt and the bad guy went to jail. To politely knock probably would have meant a shoot-out with the guy.

The second type were narcotics warrants. Again - these CANNOT be based on anonymous information. We either just made a buy in the house or followed a delivery and knew the drugs were there. Again, surveilance is set up, a warrant is typed, a judge is found to sign it, and we hit the house. No knocking. No time to flush, arm themselves, or scoot out the back.(in fact, I’ve even been on one where we knew he kept the crack in the bathroom next to the toilet in his trailer so we knocked the toilet pipes loose as we hit the door. Again, bad guys go to jail, evidence is recovered, and no one is hurt.

No-knocks have their place for the safety of everyone concerned, but IT HAS TO BE DONE RIGHT.

By the way - most warrants are NOT no-knocks.

Election ‘08 - We Are So Screwed

And dougee,

The ingredients in some cold medication can and are used to make meth. Under the law they’re known as “precursers” and before drug store outlets limited their availability meth makers were buying - or stealing - them by the basket.

That’s why you can only get so much at once now.

You can thank your friendly neighborhood meth heads and dealers for that one.

Election ‘08 - We Are So Screwed

And by the way, Kbeil....

I quite agree with you on one point - if you burst into my home in the middle of the night there is a real good chance you won’t leave the same way you came in, especially if you don’t know what you’re doing. People with little or no tactical entry training can end up getting hurt - or hurting someone else.

THAT’S why these things have to be done right.

If a good team comes in on you, you probably won’t have a chance to arm yourself.

Election ‘08 - We Are So Screwed

Thanks Pilgrim.  I realize that there is a difference between no knock warrants issued on actual bad acts as observed by police officers (plural please) and those issued on anonymous tips without any follow up investigation.  The problem is clearly that no knocks are being applied for and given before the LEOs have done a proper investigation.  A proper investigation would leave any reasonable observer with no doubt that something illegal is occurring inside the target building.  It would also inform the tactical decision of the police command (i.e. is a no knock really necessary for safety reasons).

If a good team comes in on you, you probably won’t have a chance to arm yourself.

I would argue (and would guess that you would agree) that a good team wouldn’t enter my house in the first place because careful observation of my house would not reveal any illegal activities.  And therein lies the problem with this story.  The police in this case were clearly lazy and did no follow up investigation to the installer’s tip.

kbeil -

Exactly right. If the cops at work are professionals and trained right, then the chances of an accidental entry into an innocent person’s home where someone like you or I would have to exercise our second amendmant rights all over their ass, are minumized.

The most dangerous cops in this circumstance are the ones who watch too many movies and have too little tactical training.

Election ‘08 - We Are So Screwed

I think the blame would lie with the senior leadership of these agencies who need to be the ones to approve these acts.

Back to the story the spokeperson for the agency said that the investigating officer was new on the drug task force implying it was his fault.  B. blanking S.

The Debate is over!  Global Whining has been confirmed.

Vinegar?  I’ll warn my friends in Brooklyn Park not to make any pickles!  (and CenterPoint will NOT be installing my next water heater....)

I don’t get the no-knock thing for investigation of possible meth labs myself.  It’s not as if you can flush all 10 things you need to do it down the toilet in the minute or so it takes to knock and have the door opened for you.

Well, the blame lies with the police at all levels.  The sergeants/captains or whoever was in charge should have ordered an investigation before allowing the department to apply for a no knock warrant.  The officer who took the tip should not have offered up his affidavit if he knew it was the sole reason for the warrant.  The officers who were charged with executing the warrant should have noticed that no one had even scoped out the house to record the habits of these notorious drug manufacturers, information they surely needed to make their execution go smoothly and with the least chance of injury or death.  They should have refused to execute the warrant until more information was available.  Only after all of that, would I blame the leadership for lack of training.  While, yes, training might have prevented this, common sense and good dose of “we the people” would have stopped this just as quickly.

Ultimately, though, I blame the judge.  It was the judge’s job to review the application and make a reasonable determination as whether probable cause existed.  I would bet that 99 out of 100 or even 999 out of 1000 reasonable people would have determined that there was not probable cause based on single tip consisting of the smell of, gasp, vinegar.  I mean, I know that vinegar is an acid that can be used in the manufacture of meth (and other substances), but did this judge not also know that vinegar is used in other illicit activities such as cooking and cleaning?

It’s not as if you can flush all 10 things you need to do it down the toilet in the minute or so it takes to knock and have the door opened for you.

Well, you could try to, but it would be a very exciting experience.  It would probably be safer to point a gun at the cops.  Of course, I wouldn’t put it past the type of person who would make and/or use meth to be stupid enough to try it.

It was the judge’s job to review the application and make a reasonable determination as whether probable cause existed.

I have a problem there, too.

Here in Louisiana you don’t just type up a warrant to search and go have a judge sign it. There is a sworn affidavit that accompanies the warrant that is signed by the applying officer(s). The judge also makes you raise your right hand and swear that the facts on the affidavit are true and correct.

“Someone smelled vinegar” probably wouldn’t get your warrant signed. On the face of, it looks like sloppy work all around.

Election ‘08 - We Are So Screwed

Oh, so the failure of government in the case of these aquarists, who apparently did nothing to interest anyone at all is equivalent to that of the Texas polygamists?

You are seriously off-topic and in need of a timeout.

Comparing any Texas law enforcement office with those in Hennepin County, MN is slanderous idiocy of the highest order.  Texas deserves your abject apology.

GG: You’re sadly mistaken; both are examples of violation of the Fourth Amendment, specifically the part about Probable Cause.

"If the good men are silent only the wicked are heard.” - Edmund Burke

Comparing any Texas law enforcement office with those in Hennepin County, MN is slanderous idiocy of the highest order.

You can always tell a Walker Texas Ranger fanatic.

The Debate is over!  Global Whining has been confirmed.

Texas deserves your abject apology.

First off, I’ve never criticized the officers themselves. Cops take their assignments and execute them. It’s the system that put those officers in that position that I’m critical of.

And if I need a time out it won’t be you who puts me there.

Election ‘08 - We Are So Screwed

I’m just wondering how that was different or more traumatizing than if a
white deputy had been doing the pummeling.

A legitimate question. Actually it would make no difference to me. I didn’t know the deputies’ names for three years. One was white and one was black, so every time I had to discuss the incident, I got used to saying, “the white one did this, the black one did that,” as a way to distinguish the actions. Just habit at this point.

For my Mother, the only thing that mattered was there was a man with a gun in her bedroom. She was 90 and I doubt she had seen a man in her bedroom since my father had died 30 years earlier.

My Mother lived only 1 1/2 blocks from a large state prison facility and it was not unusual for the helicopters/spotlights to fly over due to some security violation at the prison. That was my first thought and hers too, that there had been a prison break and these weren’t really cops but prisoners in stolen uniforms.

When something like this happens, your mind does everything it can to make sense of the situation and being thrown around like a rag doll doesn’t compute with the word cop, at least it didn’t for me or any of us at first.

I didn’t have a gun, but it would not have mattered anyway. We were all still asleep since we had gotten home so late. They were already in the house and on me before I could shake myself fully awake. It was mass confusion for me. I had no idea what was going on until it was too late to act. Sometimes I think it would have been different had there been a man in the house. But, then I think, thank God there wasn’t because he’d probably be dead.

Those who have remarked that it is not just the cops who come in, but their supervisors, etc. Good point. I didn’t find out until years into the civil case that the whole substation had a problem. Turns out there had been 7 previous incidents over a 5 year period involving deputies from this same substation. I didn’t find this out until one of them shot an innocent man after a car chase. The guy was an Iraqi war vet home on leave and on a beer run from his own welcome home party and was a passenger in the car that was stopped. It made all the news because a neighbor videotaped the incident and there was lots of investigation. Same group of deputies I was dealing with, from the same substation, same sergeant, lieutenant, etc. The newspaper called them the “Gang of Seven.” In fact, it was the same sergeant who had refused the emergency room doctor’s request to send someone to take pictures and do a report on my assault.

I don’t have as much animosity toward the white deputy, however, because he was the rookie. The black deputy was older and obviously the one in charge. They both looked like body builders and outweighed me by a good hundred pounds or more, and for awhile I even entertained the theory that they were in the midst of some kind of steroid rage, but my attorney said that would be near impossible to prove, so we never pursued that avenue of inquiry. There is no question though, that the tone was set at the top in this particular substation.

BTW, when I finally got a copy of the police report, there were 23 outright lies and another 12 things that were half truths at best. It was the rookie who finally broke down and admitted that my version was closer to the truth than their written report. After that happened, things began to move more quickly toward a court settlement.

Psychologically, if you have spent your life trying to be an honest, hardworking and lawabiding person, it is hard to be treated like you are the scum of the earth. My Mother offered one moment of comic relief. The deputy shouted at me to “shut the f**k up and she raised herself up in bed and said, “young man, that language is unacceptable in my home, you need your mouth washed out with soap.” It was like one of those tableaus where everything freeze frames for a second and then the action picks up again.