Say Anything Blog

A couple of things.

1. It is funny how we can talk about "white boys" being lazy, but if you breathed a disparaging generalization about Mexicans they’d string you up as a racist.
2. Could the reason for you not having Workers Comp or sick days problems with Mexicans be because you’re paying them under the table and they have no leverage to demand it? 

The purpose of government shouldn’t be to do good, but simply to refrain from doing evil.

1. It is funny how we can talk about "white boys" being lazy, but if you breathed a disparaging generalization about Mexicans they’d string you up as a racist.

I’m stringing Gene up as a racist. I think you should too.

I never paid them under the table.  I paid them from our payroll account like every other worker using the SS numbers and immigtation papers they furnished.  I don’t enjoy jail that much. 

I also used a service who hired them and I paid the service. Kind of like Kelly Girls for Mexicans. 

Were they illegal?  Probably.  I honestly don’t know for sure.  But a year and a half later the SS dept told us there was a problem with the numbers they furnished.  We got new numbers from them. We were in compliance on paper. Jail was not looming ahead.  The INS made sure we were in compliance to the best of our ability.   

What is true is they don’t file workman’s comp claims because of thier status.

But they work harder, more steady, more skillfully and more consistantly than any white boys I ever hired.

The illusion the American argument over immigration doesn’t get is that white boys are equal to the hispanic newcomers.  They aren’t.  I know some of the work ethic is driven by desparation.  But they are superior workers. Not cheaper.

When President Bush says these people take jobs Americans are unwilling to do he is lambasted.  I would take it further, not only unwilling, incabable.  

I am not happy taking this position.  My racism if it exists is against the assumption that white is right.  White is lazy at least in my business.  

I am not optomistic because as a white german norwegian ancestry American I am at the epicenter of this incompetence and slothful maelstrom.  

We must get the work ethic back in America.  More money isn’t going to make Billy Bob work any harder or more effectively.  I know, I tried.

I went back to Mexicans. 

The big problem is that US citizens who would would setltle for $10/hour type jobs are either interested in learning that trade (few) or is a deadbeat (many).

I’ve had my experience trying to hire US citizens for this sort of work…  You’re lucky if they even show up for the first day’s work after you describe what you need.

That’s flat out racial discrimination in hiring, which is illegal in every state.

The difference between "white" workers (though I think this applies to Americans in general rather than any specific race) and immigrants (illegal or otherwise) is that immigrants are hungry and desperate, Americans are not.

This is a proserpous country.  Even our "poor" people are fat and have televisions.  I heard somebody famous say once that he came to America because he wanted to see a place where the poor people were fat.

In the welfare society we’ve created, what impetus do our lower-rung workers have to work hard?  If they lose their job they’ll get welfare, foodstamps and unemployment.  If they keep their job they have to work and pay for their own food.

The purpose of government shouldn’t be to do good, but simply to refrain from doing evil.

Dave says, "I’m stringing Gene up as a racist. I think you should too."

Seth says, "That’s flat out racial discrimination in hiring…"

Nonsense.  This is not a collegiate debate with some smug little trophy as the prize.  This is the reality of trying to get competent help when you run a labor intensive business.  I own a commercial finance business, and every developer, builder, contractor, and commercial property manager I know tells similar tales of woe.  These aren’t racists or bigots we’re talking about.  They’re small business owners who are frantic for a dependable, hard-working staff of employees.  Got any suggestions?  Or is this merely one more example of rhetorical liberal criticism with no reasonable alternatives being offered?

Bat, Seth is hardly a liberal.

I’m not so sure I disagree.  This statement is troubling:

Now we only hire Mexicans.  We can tell who we will hire by their accent.  If they speak English we don’t even discuss it.

I’d have a problem with an employer refusing to even entertain the idea of interviewing people because they sound "black" or whatever on the phone.  Are Mexicans better workers?  Probably for all the reasons I mentioned earlier in this thread…but is that an excuse to discriminate against a given applicant because he/she is white?

C’mon.  It is wrong when that is done to blacks and it is wrong when it is done to whites. 

The purpose of government shouldn’t be to do good, but simply to refrain from doing evil.

I’d suggest that Gene offer a wage and benefit package that will attract and keep *legal* workers - just like I have to do. It is not ok for Gene to knowingly hire illegals, when other employers who chose to be honest and legal can not. The process of hiring illegals undermines our economy, is biased against those who want to be legal (both employers and employees), and effectively imports poverty from countries south of our border. On top of that, a lot of the dollars illegals earn are sent out of the US back to their native countries doing our economy no good whatsoever.

I worked in the fields as a teenager and young man side by side with a lot of Mexicans. For the most part they were wonderful hard-working people. But whether they are nice or not, or hard-working or not, is not the issue is it?

It’s about the economy, our sovereign borders, and our culture. For every ten illegal alien workers we get a couple of reconquista/aztlan types who believe (at different levels of sophistication) much of the southwest US belongs to Mexico. We then educate them in a system that encourages them in their deranged goals. Can you say MeCHA?

Gene, this is nothing personal, but what you and the other employers like you are doing is illegal and ultimately very bad for out nation. If allowed, our economy will adjust to a shortage of sub-market labor. That is what capitalist economies do. If those who have benefitted for years from unfair illegal advantages have to take it in the shorts for a few years until the ecomomy balances out then so be it. Why should employers and their customers who have been benefitting from illegal workers be bailed out by the rest of us? NFW.

We need to first control our borders, severely sanction and penalize employers who hire illegals to the point where few if any illegals are being hired (this will dry up the incentive for many illegals to come here), and create a guest worker program that is not tied to citizenship.  We should also have a balanced immigration program that allows proportionately as many Irish and Italians and Swedes as Mexicans. We must stop the illegal and immoral "browning of America" as La Raza and MeCHA puts it.

If you tried to go from playing video games all day to manual labor you’d have problems with overtime too. It’s not lazy it’s called being out of shape.

Since you can’t get enough people, why don’t you try hiring the white boys for half days for the first week and see how they do once they get into shape.  Hire twice as many as you need and then keep the best half of them once they’re ready for prime time.

I agree with Dale’s point that we have to secure our borders before we can do much of anything about illegal immigration. It should STUN every American that we have at minimum 8 million illegal immigrants in this country, whether they are good workers or not.

Our politicians are totally gutless and that’s why we’re in this mess. I think we should begin fining employers who hire undocumented worker BIG TIME, and thereby decrease the incentive to jump the border. When I taught at a university, I had to prove my citizenship every year before I began classes by producing my birth certificate or passport. Why should other employers not do that?

I also find the "white boy"  vs "Mexican labor force" rhetoric offensive. 

“Since you can’t get enough people, why don’t you try hiring the white boys for half days for the first week and see how they do once they get into shape. Hire twice as many as you need and then keep the best half of them once they’re ready for prime time.”—Serenity

Why? Is he a charity of some sort? Can he claim them as some sort of ‘donation’ to the National System in addition to just a business expense? Did anyone let him know that he was expected to ‘compensate’ for out-of-shape slackers who literally can’t or won’t do a full days work ? 

If you chose to spend your time playing vidoe games and sucking back burgers until you it’s all you can do to waddle out the door——TOUGH. You snooze;you lose.

This is exactly what is wrong with our failing culture. Lazy,entitled,short-sighted and whiny.Just like the French who believe that they are deserving by natural right of a job for life.

If the Mexicans are willing to go that extra mile(for whatever reason), they will inevitably come out on top. It may take a generation but the dynamic and the motivated always win out over the self-absorbed and lacklustre.

Nature never sleeps, and I don’t blame anyone employer for doing what he needs to do to remain competitive in an increasingly tough environment.

You want to do something for these unmotivated victims? Set up your own company and hire them to your heart’s content. Just have plenty of cash in reserve. You really will need it.

Immigrant labor being desperate can present better workers. You could probably get an MBA from China for the price you are paying a Mexican. Immigrants will live 8 in a room or sleep under a truck, as their wages represents survival for their families.

In the end you will be competing with nurseries owned by Mexicans who learned the business from you.

Seth wrote: 

That’s flat out racial discrimination in hiring, which is illegal in every state.

Exactly. Imagine if Gene were Hispanic and he wrote what he wrote. What he advocates is absolutely appalling.

"I’d suggest that Gene offer a wage and benefit package that will attract and keep *legal* workers - just like I have to do. It is not ok for Gene to knowingly hire illegals, when other employers who chose to be honest and legal can not."

Dean,

Your indignation at those who hire illegal aliens is understandable, but it is no reason to expect the small business community to do the job that is more properly the responibility of the federal government… even if that federal government has chosen not to do that job for the last several decades.

I don’t know what part of the country you are in, but I do know that it is no great exageration to state that I can walk into nearly any Waffle House (or similar establishment) anywhere, and within 2 hours I’ll have a driver’s license, Social Security card, and a "green card," all the identification and documentation necessary to get a job, buy a car or a truck, rent an apartment or a house, and get the phone and electric service turned on.  That the documents are not valid is of little concern to anyone providing those services.  Nor can the employer, landlord, or utility company even make any meaningful effort to check the validity, for to do so is itself illegal.  It’s called "profiling" and "racist" by the very same people whose only real interest is grandstanding for partisan advantage rather than helping to solve our immigration problem.

Don’t misunderstand my point of view.  I believe firmly that the 10 to 15 million illegals in this country (and they are just that - illegals!) represent and insult and a slap in the face to every one of us whose family came here the right way… the legal way.  One of our most fundamental principles in this country has always been the sanctity of the law and the fact that we are all equal under the law.  To tolerate or excuse the illegals among us flies in the face of that principle and makes liars of those of us who believe in it.

But to expect the business community to act as policemen and enforce the law, when the policmen themselves are instructed not to do so, is gratuitous nonsense.

"What he advocates is absolutely appalling."

Dave,

Your being appalled by the reality described by Gene is hardly much of a solution to either the question of finding competent, diligent employees for America’s small businesses or the greater question of illegal immigration.

Got anything better to offer? 

Yes. Hire employees based on their qualifications, not their ethnicity.

First, Rob, where they were hiring in Tennesee is Warren County which has fewer blacks per capita then North Dakota.  Old KKK country.  And, many of those white boys would have been members of the KKK in the past.  So when they are looking for an accent, the desirable is the Mexican accent. 

Second.  I was always presented with all the documentation which made the hiring legal.  Only after a very long time were we notified of SS numbers which were not matched.  I did not hire them.  Later they came with "Proper" papers.  There was (this is 5 years ago) no centralized database to check with.  I’m hiring right now so I’m not sure there is one now.

Bat One is right, you can buy a new identity for $500 in norhern Indiana which is as fully documented and fool proof as anything on the planet. Drivers licence, passport, green card, ins approval papers, the whole thing.  How is an employer supposed to know.  And if you suspect and are wrong is it proper to dismiss someone because you suspect???

I always paid a going wage in our industry.  I offered Health care.  They were paid from the same wage pool as any other employer.  If I had doubled the amount I paid and hired white boys I would have not found the people to do the work I need done.

One other anectdote.  I personally ship (do my own trucking) certain containerized tree and shrub shipments.  So I am the delivery guy.

I do this in off seasons to have something to do.  Now, I’m 61 years old. 6’ tall.  250 pounds.  In reasonable good health and condition.  I don’t work out, I just work.

When I deliver the customer will send out people to help me unload the 2 or 3000 container plants by hand.  Each will way 5-50 pounds each depending on the plant.  If they send mexicans I know I have to hustle.  If they send out college white boys who are on summer break I love it.  I know within a half hour I’ll have them draggin.  "You’re killin me man".  I love it when that happens. Then I quiz them.  How old do you think I am?  When I tell them and I tell them I’m 3X their age and they are dragging thier behind around I hope they get the message.  They are out of shape, don’t know pacing, have no upper body strength and don’t know how to work.  I’ll carry two 40 pound plants at a time, one in each hand, they struggle to carry even one.

I know they have brains.  I have 2 college degrees and most of a masters.  I’m not impresseed.

When our President calls for increased competitiveness in this country this is in part what he is talking about.  We are no longer the hard working competitive country we once were.  

I love our military.  I see those fine men and women coming back from Iraq and I have hope.  Maybe there is hope.  

I will have to say, this isn’t good news.  I take no joy in it.  

I think the video game thing is a part of it.

Who do I blame:

Liberals who have created a welfare state that means a sense of entitlement exists that the world owes you a living.  

Public Schools that dumb down and brainwash our young people who emerge without an example of what work is.

Parents who coddle their kids and don’t demand work from them.  I am guilty of this.  I have children.  Good Boys.  34 and 39 years old.  But they had it too easy.  

Labor laws that restrict the hiring of 15 year olds so they can learn to work while they are impressionable without having to pay goofy wages for a kid.  My first job was a buck an hour in 1961.  I was 14.  I thought I had died and gone to heaven. I don’t know how that translates.

We have lost much and I don’t know how we get it back.  I’m not optomistic.  Are my grandkids going to be able to compete in the world to come?  Look at France, a bunch of lazy toads who sit on their behinds and collect unearened benifits

That’s where we’re headed.  I’m not the problem.  I’m a symptom. 

Bat One: "But to expect the business community to act as policemen and enforce the law, when the policmen themselves are instructed not to do so, is gratuitous nonsense."

Good comment for the most part. Just for reference, I’m in California (or Northern Mexico as it is rapidly becoming). My comment did read as indignation, but is more borne of frustration, rapidly becoming angry frustration. I disagree with your above statement. I do not expect business people to act as policemen, I do expect them to act as Americans should act and obey the law and execute necessary due dilligence.

As an aside, just because an authority figure is not upholding the law in no way excuses me or anyone else from doing so - at least in my moral code. Besides there are a lot of border patrol agents increasingly under threat of harm that are trying to do their job and I respect that and so do my small part to not make their job worse. I think your postition there is tenuous at best and difficult to defend other than by callous economics.

Here is what my HR attorney (he loves being called on a Saturday) has to say:

"With very few exceptions, the Immigration Reform and Control Act made all U.S. employers responsible to verify the employment eligibility and identity of all employees hired to work in the United States after November 6, 1986. Further, the Immigration and Nationality Act ("INA") provides that it is unlawful for an employer to hire a non-citizen knowing that he or she is not authorized to work for him. Many employers erroneously assume that not knowingly hiring or continuing to employ illegal aliens is the full extent of their immigration obligations. To the contrary, it is unlawful to hire anyone without complying with certain "employment verification procedures." Section 274A(b) of the INA directs each employer to verify that every employee hired after November 6, 1986 is authorized to work in the United States. This obligation applies to citizen and alien job applicants alike. To implement the law, employers are required to complete Employment Eligibility Verification forms (Form I-9) for all employees, including U.S. citizens."

That in a nutshell is what I ask of employers. I do realize that employers are stuck in a difficult middle as you may be accused of discriminatory action when asking for proof of the employees eligibility to work in the US once they have already been hired. Just because it is difficult though does not excuse anyone from executing their due dilligence.

There is a significant and growing groundswell of resentment toward illegals - and those who hire them. We all know that if there were no jobs for illegals, there would be no illegals - and that is the root cause of the problem, at least from the US perspective. Also, I can almost commiserate with Gene (and he seems like a great person), but I have 72 installers most of which are hardworking white’ish boys. We do have several hardworking black men, and about 8 hispanics, and a few women - all great employees and work their asses off in a very difficult job. And we pay them more than $11 per hour - a lot more.

And that is the gist of it. Money.

I have to admit that it is appealing to think about hiring illegals.That they work hard is not at issue, but that they do so for less than what I’m paying now would mean our business would make more profit and I’d get more money. But I simply won’t do it because it is wrong. We are under *tremendous* pressure to control and cut expenses. Labor is the number one expense in most businesses. But we also have an obligation to our employees and our nation to pay a reasonable wage for the work done. That’s what we are doing at that is why are fullly staffed with good people.

I thought your comment about "white boys" filing workman’s compensation claims was offensive.  An employer is responsible for injuries on the job.  If you aren’t providing medical and disability out of pocket to your injured workers then you are exploiting your workers and should be ashamed of yourself. 

Gene:  You left out one of the causes: Politicians who buy votes with both entitlement programs and class envy rhetoric.  Not all illegals come here to work.  Even if 100% of them did, which is highly unlikely, and their unemployment rate is identical to that of the legal workforce, around 5%, then that means, with 11 million illegals, that there are around half a million illegals.  That is a big drain on public services, even at that rate. 

I don’t agree that if the jobs weren’t here, illegal immigration would stop.  They are fleeing corrupt, stagnant societies, and will come here just for the benefits and special treatment given to the "poor and downtrodden" here in the US.  When the border is as porous as it is, employers in certain sectors of the economy must hire them to stay competitive.  This is an enforcement problem, Period.

"I HAVE NEVER PAYED THEM UNDER THE TABLE"

Anyone and everyone knows that’s a LIE! Don’t bother responding,it is highly apparent you are in serious DENIAL!(and besides I don’t care as I have stated on many occasions I hope 12 million more come across) The puke in the white house comes on tv all the time screaming how great a job he is doing protecting america and the border is still WIDE OPEN. Besdies the fact that he looked like a real asswipe this past week when he was down there sucking up to vincente fox AGAIN! Great job george! Oh and for all my former associates out in AZ who used to brag about all the "money they were saving" by hiring and using this "workforce" well maybe now you can use all the money you saved to pay for higher health care costs and the strain on law enforcement resources! Whatta joke,however it is on you NOT ME as I don’t live there anymore. Oh by the way if you think the rallies are disgusting now just wait until you try and enforce the new laws. WHEW! Time to get the fire trucks ready as LA will be quite a fiery sight! Hey maybe the catholic church can offer "assistance" and go down and help put the fires out since they seem so concerned with justice and unity!

bat one: you’re jumping to conclusions about my liberality. I believe in a limited government, but one that enforces the laws it does have. Immigration policy would be one of those areas that I believe is absolutely the purview of government: it’s a security issue, it’s an economic issue, it’s a social issue, and it’s an  issue of sovereignty.

On a more personal issue, I’m married to an immigrant who wants very much to become an American citizen. We waited years and—at great personal cost to both of us—brought her to America legally. It pisses both of us off that people just trot across the border and crap on our laws, and doubly pisses us off that American citizens aid and abet them in this endevour.

What’s more, I don’t know what’s wrong with the people in your state, but up here in NH we don’t have all that many latinos. Guess what: we still can fill the landscaping, fruit picking, and dishwashing positions. Lazy "white boys" my ass.

In a reversal of fortune those who in the past were characterized as Lazy Mexicans (Manana is good enough for me) are now industrious workers.

It is time for Mexicans to open "Schools for Gabachos" and get those white boys on the south of the border fast track.

"José is such a gabacho; he pays to get his lawn mowed. "

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Gabacho 

I meant "half a million unemployed illegals…"

Seth,

My apologies if you took my remarks as an implication that you are a liberal.  I am normally careful about who I insult, and how, and I can certainly understand that any rational individual would be offended by the label "liberal."  You have written nothing here so intellectually pedestrian as to warrant such a denigration, and if I have inadvertantly offended, I do apologize.

Still, I do not believe that the business community ought to be charged with the de facto enforcement of laws which the federal government and the verious states are unable or unwilling to enforce themselves.

Nor do I think it is "racist" for businessmen to hire individuals who are proven to do the job for which they are hired, or relate their experiences with those who are not.

Finally, let me say that I am in complete agreement with your views on immigration.  My mother’s family left Vienna and a very prosperous and comfortable life and came to this country penniless.  Well, almost all of them.  My great uncle did not make it out in time, and when he died in NY many years later, he still bore the numbers tatooed on his arm at Buchenwald.

Your wife’s immigration situation reminds me of those instances waiting patiently in some interstate offramp when some self-serving ass takes off down the shoulder by passing all those who have "followed the rules" by waiting patiently, only to cut back in line.  It infuriates my wife when I do it, but if I see someone doing that, I will actually pull out and force him off the sholder and into the ditch if I can.  I figure its kind of like shooting a burglar how breaks into your home.  It may indefensible ethically to some, but there is a certain satisfaction about it in any case.

Dean,

Your HR attorney is correct about the Immigration Reform and Control Act (Simpson-Mazzoli), and the requirement that all employers document that they have verified that each new hire has the requisite documentation.

But the same legislation also makes it a federal offense to discriminate in hiring practices, which in effect means that if a potential employee speaks not one word of english, but has a drivers license, SS card and a "Green" card, the employer cannot legally question the validity of those documents or when, where, and how they were obtained (or for how much) without being accused of illegal discrimination in hiring.

So… you run the photocopies, attach them to the I-9 Form and the respective state form, and forget the whole thing as a thoroughly meaningless exercise in federal futility. 

"Nor do I think it is "racist" for businessmen to hire individuals who are proven to do the job for which they are hired, or relate their experiences with those who are not."

Coincidentally, I was at a party last night talking to a guy who has a crew of over 220 workers building manufactured homes. He has pods of different ethnic groups (they work better and are happier when not integrated - subject for another post - self selection of work groups is only ok for non-whites…) including Russians, Ukranians, Vietnamese, Mexican, Honduran, Blacks, and whites. He said the Russians are the best workers by far. On the bottom are Mexicans then Blacks. However he did state something interesting, that from his perspective he sees two distinct classes of Black worker. The gang-banger, and the regular guy as he called them. The regular guy works hard and displays leadership, honesty, and dependability. The gang-banger is the polar opposite.

My point here is that is it ok for this guy to not hire gang-banger Black men (relying on his perception to make the determination), or is it ‘racist’? After all, his is Gene’s situation with gang-banger Black men substituted for white men.

I believe that while it may not be racist, it certainly is discriminatory and illegal under our laws. So too with Gene’s situation regarding whites. Though the language he couches his issues with white boys in is flagrant and coming from a non-white would rightfully be called racist, giving him the benefit of the doubt about racism, from what I read he is illegally discriminating against a racial group.

Last week, on these very pages, Dekalb County, GA CEO Vernon Jones was quoted as applauding the opening of another WalMart Supercenter, and economic improvement that the store’s opeing will bring to that segment of Dekalb County.

Meanwhile, another of Dekalb County’s black "leaders," Congresswoman Cynthia McKinney, was doing what she does best, displaying publicly her arrogant stupidity, and then blaming it all on someone else’s racism.

If a "gang-banger" whether black. chicano, Puerto Rican, Vietnamese, or white, is a lousy employees, or a risky hire in the first place, there is nothing at all wrong with saying so.  For the most part, the attitude alone is enough to disqualify them from serious consideration.

We are well past the time when offending someone’s sensibilities should  carry any sort of legal sanction.   There never has been any kind of Constitutional "right" to not have one’s feelings hurt.  No matter what the subject matter. 

Bat One. First, I appreciate having this discussion.

Second, though I understand what you are saying, the catch-22 is that the employer is still ultimately responsible and can be held accountable for hiring only those people who are legally able to work for them. There are databases out there (the guy last night said he was 100% confident that his employees were legal due their being verified by some system I can’t recall the name of - but I’m looking for it for our use at work) that can help.

My point is - and you seem to disagree - that employers are responsible for upholding the law. Further, I do not see that as equivalent morally, ethically, or legally as their being any sort of police. We all have to exert efforts of some sort to uphold the law. Some of those efforts are more difficult than others, but it is still our repsonsibility.

Would it be ok with you for me or anyone else to discriminate against those we believe are illegal the way that Gene discriminates against those he believes aren’t good workers?

Also, there are other laws and regulations that are a real hindrance to our business, is it ok for us to ignore them? No, because even though they help business economically, they have deleterious effects elsewhere in our society. Verifiying legal status is neither the most difficult nor most important compliance effort some businesses have to deal with even though it is admittedly a pain in the rear.

Bat One: "For the most part, the attitude alone is enough to disqualify them from serious consideration."

Only if they display such attitude when applying for the job and if it can be shown that said attitude is incompatible with the duties to be performed, or the general work environment. But if one is not careful a discrimination suit lies in not hiring someone because of a perceived versus a demonstrated attitude.

Also, it is perfectly ok in a discussion forum like this to talk about personal experiences with hiring. What is not ok is exercising those biases in hiring. Whether I like it or not, it is illegal.

Ladies and gentlemen, the choice is simple.  Either we allow this to continue AND lose this country, which most certainly will happen as the show of force demonstrations have clearly indicated. Or we batten down the hatches, make changes to the social policies of this country where we produce less sloth like individuals, pay a little more for a better brand of workers and in the end maintain a US of A.  The adage of pay me now or pay me later holds quite true for our current plight.

Dean,

We are quibbling now.  Beyond a certain point, any discussion of what is ethical versus legal, or what is actionable versus merely offensive becomes a subjective semantic dispute.  Neither of my businesses have employees such as we are discussing here, although many with whom I do business do.

Sadly, what his points up, however, is that our current system of employment law discourages employers from hiring those with little or no proven experience… and all for the wrong reason.

"Pure and simple reverse discrimination."

There is no such thing as reverse discrimination. It is either discrimination or it isn’t. Period.

Here is the gist of it for me. Employers who do not exercise strong due dilligence in hiring to ensure to the best of their abilility that their hires are legal are contributing to the erosion of American culture and America itself. Not to put too fine a point on it, but I don’t think that is ok.

Alexander Hamilton understood what makes us, and keeps us, Americans (quote from a 1915 article about immigration):

"Alexander Hamilton insisted that "the safety of a republic depends essentially on the energy of a common national sentiment; on a uniformity of principles and habits; on the exemption of citizens from foreign bias and prejudice; and on the love of country which will almost invariably be found to be closely connected with birth, education, and family." The ultimate success of the American republic, he maintained, depends upon "the preservation of a national spirit and a national character," among native born and immigrant alike.""

That we are being heavily influenced by ‘foreign bias’ is beyond discussion. The ‘browning of America’ is happening right now and the influence that Mexico has on American politics is significant and growing. It is wrong and we ignore it at our peril. Aztlan and reconquista are terms that will become more a part of the lexicon in the coming years and not in ways and for reasons that are good for America.

Many liberals support illegal immigration because they see it as way to develop a voting block loyal to them and they have had success in doing so. Some conservatives support illegal immigration because it is a source of cheap labor and they too are meeting with success. Both motives are wrong and what both groups are doing is immoral and against the best interests of America.  

I believe in having a reasonable, controlled, and accountable immigration plan that balances those entering our country by ethnicity and country of origin to prevent undue foreign bias and the dividing of America between those who are brown and everyone else. 

The only way to avoid desctruction of American culture over the next 50 years is to gain control of our borders, structure immigration policy to mandate and enforce a balanced diversity of immigrants, and eliminate incentives for illegal immigration. (While we can never get rid illegal immigration, we can certainly diminish it to a manageable level that America can live with. )

Bat One. I respectfully disagree. I think the issue itself centers on the objective rule of law, the responsibility of citizens to obey the law, and our soverignity as a nation. I do however agree that discussion of the issue can become subjective and get wound around the axle of semantics.

But it does not change the facts of the matter an iota. Hiring those not legally authorized to work here is illegal and wrong for that reason if not for any other reason (which I believe it is). There is no disputing that. The dispute comes from those not liking the law for political or economic reasons.

The fact is that many business people make a killing of illegal immigration while many of the rest of us effectively are forced to subsidize them. We can not just throw up our hands and accede to that. The ‘issue’ of illegal immigration is becoming a fight for nothing less than the very soul of America and for our future as a nation.

We have a similar(but not so bad) situation in Australia with imported Asian and Middle Eastern ‘hard workers’ who depress wages. The answer isn’t *forcing* businesses to do otherwise by law, but by shunning and driving them out of town. It is the right of employers to discriminate, but it is also the right of the community to react appropriately. Ideally, these employers(and those who support them) would be stripped of citizenship and deported to the nation they think supplies such ‘great worth ethic’, but that’s not legal…..yet. Someone who works against the interests of a culture has no right to reside or do business within the nation that culture created. Shun them ,exclude them, don’t let them live amongst you.

 I hope it’s not too late for America, but last time i visited(2002) much of it resembled what Marx predicted…....capitalism and ‘free markets’ levelling the first world with the third world, killing ties of religion-culture-loyalty and eventually borders for the sake of the dollar. Soon enough, those ‘KKK white boys’ and the society they made is going to look damn good by comparison to what your children inherit.

Yes, Kirk, Marxism is certainly working well in the rest of the world.  Racism is obviously the answer, I agree(heavy sarcasm).  You see what you want to see.

Dean: The only reason we are "forced" to subsidize them is because of poor enforcement by the federal govt.  No illegals=no problems about hiring illegals.

Know your terms before you toss them about.  Racism (See one definition at bottom) is a person (or group) using ‘race’ (which there is really no such thing) or the perception of race to harm another person or group.  Therefore, Gene not hiring his ‘white boys’ does not count as they can get jobs elsewhere.  And he does not really literally MEAN white boys, as any high school educated middle class young or old person of any gender or any apparent ‘race’ who has been raised with privlege is not going to work as hard at a physically intensive job as someone still relatively uneducated and living in relative poverty.  And most poeple in such positions of being ‘well off’ probably had recent ancestors who were part of a generation who was similarly ‘stereotyped’ as hard workers.  Is it a ‘stereotype’ if it is true?  Yet as each of those groups became wealthy enough, they shed the willingness to be physical laborers.  As will the Hispanic workers, legal immigrants or illegal immigrants or first generation born here of immigrants, once their kids have been educated and able to reject physical labor.  The Hispanic boys my son goes to High School with and goes to the rock climbing gym with and plays music with are not willing to take a manual labor job either, tho their dads may still work at one!  Gene speaks of the ‘work ethic’ with some sort of nostalgia or fondness, but would he really want his kids so impoverished that they were willing to work manual labor or would he want them educated and in ‘white collar’ jobs?  This has nothing to do with a particular race:  Hispanics just happen to be the ones in the position of job and income neediness right now. 

Is (or was) Gene doing good or harm in the long run by his hiring practices?  He is checking papers to the best of his ability and providing benefits.  Is he harming the ‘white boys’ by not considering them?  I doubt it.  Is he harming the ‘Mexicans’ by hiriing them?  I doubt it.  Not if he is providing a living wage.  Will he be able to hire the ‘Mexicans’ sons or garndsons?  I doubt it, as they are going to school to learn and will not be as hungry.  What if we ran out of ‘underclass’ ‘races’ to hire for physical labor jobs?  Then we might need to resort to ‘training’ students and others in some ‘new underclass’ to do physical labor by starting them in half days, but for now, what would the benfit in that be?  Those ‘white boys’ that Gene rejects can clerk in a hardware store and not work half as hard. 

Let’s look at what is going on here outside the labels and let’s look at it historically and with an eye toward future goals.  What good does it do to label or acuse Gene?  He is telling you of a true situation in an exisitng industry and are you going to think about what the real problems are and what real solutions might be?

So, while all this interesting debate is going on, are any of the comment-makers out doing manual labor? Because sitting at a computer does wonders for increasing the largess of my butt.

Yeah, it sounds racist, this post does. I would never hire someone based on their accent. But instead of going off into that never-ending debate in which there are only ulcers and heart-attacks and no actually winners, how about a different thought?
 

Here’s something to chase around: In Nicaragua, the nationals who help us with construction work like the dickens and we do everything manually (cement mixed on ground with shovel, etc.) like they do it without machines beyond shovels, hammers, pliers, etc. They are impressive workers. However, the white farmers that our group is made of show up early in the morning and work straight through the day, even in the heat of the afternoon when some of the Nicaraguans look at us like we’re crazy (which we may be, because it’s blistering hot) and many leave for a siesta or trickle in and out during the day.

So is it a race thing? Or do you work differently when you’re on your home turf or on foreign soil and your livlihood does or doesn’t depend upon it? Because those old white North Dakota farmers? They be workin’ hard and gettin’ dirty. And they are very, very white, coming down in winter and all. White as can be.

Maybe race has nothing to do with it. Work ethics vary between regions in this country, from rural to urban areas, and from generation to generation, and, dare I throw another vile argument into the racist tempest, from religious/moral upbringing differences in which the concept of work or you don’t eat is or isn’t taught.

bATS SAID: “and I can certainly understand that any rational individual would be offended by the label “liberal.” 
THIS BLINDED DISQUALIFICATION POINTS EXACTLY HOW RATIONAL YOU ARE.  YOU MAY USE FLOWERY WORDS BUT YOUR STILL A GOOSESTEPPER.

"THIS BLINDED DISQUALIFICATION POINTS EXACTLY HOW RATIONAL YOU ARE.  YOU MAY USE FLOWERY WORDS BUT YOUR STILL A GOOSESTEPPER." (Sic)

"Rags."

No doubt in your jaundiced view this is so.  But I assure you I can line with the opprobrium, if only because I know how to use the "Shift" key.

I don’t know any white people who are hella pissed off because they can’t get a job picking oranges or flipping burgers.  If you are white and willing to work I’m sure Burger King would higher you over the next ten mexicans waiting in line for the job.  what about the lucrative construction jobs its been wined?  Well what?  Your a white male, you had THE MOST oportunities to suceed in the world if you where raised in the U.S.  The problem is you where a DUMBASS and although you possibly slid through high school, we all know that there are some real, real dumb meat heads out there…so we should leave the construction jobs as open as this okay paying gig for white dumbass’s? 
Capitalism exists but only by constantly tweaking it out.  Fact is the Mexi’s are gunna be hired over the whites because they cost less.  Thats the way the system works.  Kinda like if everything stayed relevetive, we will need the DOW Jones to be at 2 million by 2075 to still make an anual gain in our return.  We tried to tell you at the turn of the LAST century but you deported all the socialists and did god knows what else (proably tested some Eugenics shots on some of them)  Oh well.  Oh yeah, Julie, since your down there working FOR these Nicaraugans, why should they bust there ass’s?  They are gratefull for you being there, but at the same time, they are not so educated and feel that much of there socio economic plight is due to white people in the first place…so although they will take your pity with a smile, they really kind of despise you (especially in Nicaraugas case!) and would rather you bust your ass than they bust theirs… So keep busting your hump for ‘em.  Retribution, Reconquest, Revolution…

I actualy had to go look that one up!  Nice!  Watch this “shift” usage.  You aRe nOt AdreSsing The PoInT!  GramMar aND cApitOL LetTerS?  OnLY a DuMB dUmB pErsOn WouLd noT BeaBLE tO uNderstanD A sentence’S MeaNinG DuE to SpeLlinG oR gRammAr…What are you a 3rd grade english teachers…adress the facts matey…A little Soupcon of openess in your though process will surely slake your vile and splenetic attitude…next week the “R” section!

When you can’t spell, make rational sentences or capitalize properly, you appear to be a dumbass.  Defending it makes you look even dumber.

I guess that does make sense, Rob.  Need any cloth made?

I could use some corduroy.

I got pin stripes and Burlap only…Nggas down the way got garbage.  I got my fingers on some rain pants 20 for 10.  2-2 and your fitted.

im one of those white boy’s, ok half american indian. i’m going to school for electrician but i can’t help but be offended by the white boys is lazy crap, just the way it is. i have worked long hours in a nursery for eight dollars an hour and i’ve picked apples alongside the jamaicans. Guess what, i have a good work ethic no matter what job i do. I presently work in a factory, you know, the factories that no american will work in, probably alongside a great deal of illegals. In eight years ive worked my way up to a lead position and guess what, i still empty the trash, sweep the floor etc. I’m proud of the fact ive never recieved welfare or public assistance and i support my family 100 percent and yes have done so with hard manual labor. Do i realize that america needs to basically lower the minimum wage to next to nothing to compete with manufacturing giants like china, yes i do. Forgive me if id like to continue to make more than a dollar an hour for a couple of more years. Do i want to resist seeing the united states become one big mexico with all the so called culture that goes with it, yes i do. If anyone wonders what a 90 percent hispanic/mexican nation is going to be like go down to a predominantly mexican area in texas and thats how life is going to be. Don’t be a typical liberal and quote a politically correct study, go there and SEE/

the biggest fear i see is that these WHITE americans fear that their culture will be destroyed and that LA raza and the reconquista and all that will take its place, it wont !!!! i can assure you that as for me race is irrelevant everyone does have their own opinions however. We mexicans are proud yes but we love this country and WILL die for it !!! there is no country like the united States and we all know that, and yes even if we wave our mexican flag, we would still stand next to and side by side any WHITE racist KKK racist AMERICAN against any other country to preserve OURS !!! America is great !!! so dont let it get to you, we are all brothers and equal under god, dont EMPHASIE so much on RACE and MEXICNAS and AMERICANS we are all humans

Yup Yup Gene,
i remember back in the days of slavery I could get them to work a 16 hr day. no one said boo about it. It seem s the locals now expect health care, overtime, AND expect to go home to their families at night. I tell ya you just can’t get a break. I’d be hiring those Illegals too. You can always call immigration if they don’t work hard hehehehe. Gene yer a real credit.

We are all Humans, the cry of the weak. Let me tell you the difference between hiring a White Boy and a Mexican, when something becomes a problem most white boy’s well tell you to go fuck yourself, while most Mexicans will literally stab you in your back.

Think I’m wrong? ask a few contractors in New York.

The problem is NOT Mexicans and I hate racist talk, even as a joke!

The real problem has been, is now and will be until we stop it - the Democrat Party and liberalism (tolerationists). If not for them and had we long ago closed and controlled our borders, there would not be any illegal alien problem here at all (I am not excusing some Republican participation). If not for the Left we would not be tolerating law breaking by aliens or employers, we would punish wrong doing and once again be a nation of Law. If not for the Left we would not have hyphenated Americans and multilingual education, nor would our ballots be printed in multiple foreign languages. If not for the Left we would not be rewarding law breaking with free health care, social security, medicare, low cost education and a host of other benefits.

In short, we don’t have an illegal alien problem, we have a Democrat Party - Liberalism problem in this country and until that is solved we will be drowned in illegal aliens. After all, if no one is willing to stop them and/or punish their illegal entry, why the hell should we blame them for coming here?

In keeping silent about evil, in burying it deep within us, so that it appears nowhere on the surface, we are implanting it, and it will rise up a thousandfold in the future.
Alexander Solzhenitsyn. The Gulag Archipelago

i think ur pay is cheap 11.00 hr wat a joke get real wat 11.00hr i wouldnt get out of bed you want me to reck my body try like thirty dollars hr so i can actual support my family.and i like mexicans but in my field of work it hard to get a strong one.

Welfare? Yeah right! White males have never qualified for any cash welfare in any state, ever, and unemployment in most states lasts six months and is not enough to buy beer and bait. Where I live, $11 an hour won’t even pay for a basement studio apartment in the heart of the ghetto. Your business is a link in the chain of suppliers and builders in the subprime real estate scam, driven by illegal-labor, with massive profits passed on to investors and developers, but not to labor. Like whining farmers and growers, now deprived of readily-available illegal pickers, who’ve expanded along with profits from the supply of slave labor, your business model is based on artificially low wages. You and millions of other business owners have crushed wages, then call Americans, swamped in credit card debt, lazy. Hypocrites! Note however, that the first generation born to immigrants doesn’t work nearly as hard. With free public health care for pregnant teenagers and hospitalized gangbangers, they can be said to be hardly working. The Ponzi scheme will come to a screeching halt no matter who is President.

This my business / our economy would fail if it weren’t for ‘undocumented workers’ is complete and utter bullcrap.  Like one of the posters above has noted, it really amounts to a conspiracy.  The employers pay no (or if they do, reduced) employee taxes, fees and charges that normally go into paying an employee.  They don’t have to.  It’s usually a cash-only business.  On larger operations, if paperwork is involved, say for instance, in larger assembly or meat-packing plants, reports have cited the problem of numerous workers using fake, duplicate and stolen social security numbers. 

Those same reports show that the Social Security Administration and the IRS are not working together with the Department of Homeland Security whenever no match letters to the employer are generated.  A no match letter is essentially the result of duplicate or false social security numbers being flagged in the government computer systems.  The No Match letter is an inquiry to the employer of what the name given on the I-9 form does not match the name and date of birth of the stated employee, that it is a fraudulent SSAN or that—by golly—your plant sent us 3,000 I-9’s with the same SSAN on them.

Why anyone in government benefits is beyond me, because what is happening is a massive loss of tax receipts and the remaining burden is heavier on those who do pay, while the infrastructure, roads, schools, transfer payments, housing groans under the increasing and unpaid for burden.

This Black Economy (borrowing a term from Europe and the intelligence community, meaning underground or illegal) has other serious implications in ever-widening circles of damage.

Employers who hire illegals, say for instance, landscaping contractors, road crew, construction, roofing, domestic help for the hospitality industry, can and do undercut the competition and very unfairly.  Their competitors are hiring Americans and must do so at a prevailing and competitive American wage, along with the burden of EEOC and OSHA, etc… compliance. 

They cannot hope to compete with the outfit that does not have that kind of cost and pays its laborers far less than the prevailing wage.  The illegals might well be aware of this but are very aware of their tenuous situation and are constantly looking over their shoulders for the ICE (Immigration and Customs Enforcement.. the new INS) .  Even if vastly underpaid, illegal pay is on an order of a magnitude greater than what they could bring home in Mexico.

I have to correct myself: I can understand the governmental benefit of illegal immigration.  Dems are guaranteed a voter constituency of peasants, more than enough to sway any election in their favor.  That is why the Dems pushed for motor-voter laws, against ID-to-Vote requirements and Clinton waved a magic wand over 2 million illegal Mexicans with his bastardized Citizenship 2000 program.

The Country Club set from the Republicans and wealthy Democrats love the cheap labor for their laws, greens, factories, plants and mansions, so they’ll go along with the Dems.

Who gets screwed?

The Americans of all stripes.  High school kids can’t get the burger-flipping and babysitting jobs because now it is Jose and Juanita doing the work instead.

Rastus in the inner city can’t get a job because those jobs have been taken by illegals.

Billy Bob can no longer be a carpenter or work the road crew, again, because a stakebed truck pulls up to the 7-11 early in the morning and is quickly filled up after the driver offers promises of trabajo.

The biggest insanity of it all is mass amnesty.  Once the 20 million plus illegal Mexicans are legalized—they have to be paid minimum wage.

...for great justice

Whether they are defending the Soviet Union or bleating for Saddam Hussein, liberals are always against America. They are either traitors or idiots, and on the matter of America’s self-preservation, the difference is irrelevant.” —Ann Coulter, P. 16

http://i44.tinypic.com/t89p3s.jpg[/IMG]”]

AMERICANS FOR TRUTH

NO PRIDE. LV

MASS RESISTANCE

THE PINK SWASTIKA

jay,
11 dollars an hour is a perfectly acceptable wage. I live in California and the minimum wage is only $8. Also Gene is in Tennesse paying that much, the cost of living is probably less then where both you and I live My dad used to make around $11 or $12 an hour a few years ago and my family was no starving because he only made that much. If you want to be payed $30 an hour for a blue collar job good luck getting hired.

jay,
11 dollars an hour is a perfectly acceptable wage. I live in California and the minimum wage is only $8. Also Gene is in Tennesse paying that much, the cost of living is probably less then where both you and I live My dad used to make around $11 or $12 an hour a few years ago and my family was no starving because he only made that much. If you want to be payed $30 an hour for a blue collar job good luck getting hired.

if the american people dont get there work ethics straightened out, China and India will put you in the dustbins of history.

Im a Mexican and you know what we work hared to get our money.
All mexicans are doing is geting the jobs that American (White Boys) dont want cuz you know why we have familys in mexico hoo need the mony more then you.
We have little mexican boys and girls hoo need food maybe alittle toy to play with.
OO and also just that you all know YOU CANT DEPORT USE ALL (  =

Im a Mexican and you know what we work hared to get our money

No problem on you being a Mexican and I know most of you are hard workers.  What I have a problem is the illegal way that many of you have entered this country.  What you may not realize is that most of the people that are opposed to illegal entry are not concerned about the origin of those illegals but are unanimously opposed to their illegal entry regardless of who they are.

One of the most important talents for success in politics is the ability to make utter nonsense sound not only plausible but inspiring. Barack Obama has that talent. We will be lucky if we escape the catastrophes into which other countries have been led by leaders with that same charismatic talent.
-Thomas Sowell

Something that seems to be lost in this discussion is the overall affect that non-assimulated immigration has on a countries culture (believe me or not, many probably most of the illegals and some of the legal immigrants have no intention of culturally becoming Americans).  One has to look no farther than Europe to see how the mass migration of muslims, presumably to fill jobs that the natives wouldn’t or just providing cheaper labor, has affected the various nations cultures.

One of the most important talents for success in politics is the ability to make utter nonsense sound not only plausible but inspiring. Barack Obama has that talent. We will be lucky if we escape the catastrophes into which other countries have been led by leaders with that same charismatic talent.
-Thomas Sowell