Lost? Whatever gave you that idea? My aim is to educate.

And if you can find a single instance of rape by a man dressed in women’s clothes in the last 5 years, please tell me. You see, we have some sophisticated news aggregators going back that far, and although there have been crossdressed murderers, arsonists, inummerable bank and convenience store robbers, there have been no rapists.

Most of the above were straight men in disguise too, not TS people. You do know that one of the components of hormone treatment is also used as a “chemical castrator” for sex offenders?

Your fears are not based on evidence.

Zoe: Nice to see you are still around and seem to be doing well.

This thread is about, what I am sure you will agree is a very small minority of the population, externally appearing to be of one gender; but physically, under the clothes, are to all appearances of another gender entirely. These people then legally having access to public restrooms used by a majority of the population of a gender opposite to their own physical gender and making them feel uncomfortable. It is a small minority trying to force their gender confused state of being on the majority without just cause. I agree beforehand that this would make the people of their own physical gender uncomfortable when they externally appear to be of an opposite gender and use their restroom facilities.

These people know that when they choose to dress and appear to be of a gender opposite that seemingly dictated by their genitalia that they will encounter challenges as they navigate in the world. The question is, does this minority have a right to make the vast majority feel uncomfortable when going to the public restroom and expecting to not have their bodies exposed to the opposite gender? I know you may disagree, but I think they must use the public facilities of the gender dictated by their genitalia until and after gender reassignment surgery. Otherwise, we have this tiny minority dictating the rules of behavior for the vast majority and that is undemocratic and wrong – in my opinion.

Neiman, reading what you said again, you do raise a valid issue, one I glossed over. Restrooms aren’t a problem, but locker rooms are.

It would be manifestly unreasonable, and cruel, to have normal women’s private spaces invaded by someone who looks male in one important aspect. A significant number of women have been raped, and many have deep psychological trauma from that. They are a minority, but they deserve exactly the same consideration that other minorities do.

The solution there isn’t a good one. But it’s the best we have. Given that TG people are such a small minority, requiring those whose bodies are inconsistent, and where the inconsistencies would be exposed, to use the special unisex areas set aside for the disabled would see to be a reasonable option.

That of course entails that such accommodation actually be provided, but I don’t think that’s a bad thing. Not only TGs would benefit.

If the report is correct, and the Montgomery County authorities are being Fanatical about this, then they’re doing it for politics, not for human rights. God save us from such “friends”.

Why should the rest of us have to compromise on an issue like this because a fractional portion of the population is confused about what gender they are?

Fractional almost sounds generous when it has got to be less than .001% of the population.

Neiman, for a short period of my life, I looked just as I do now. Breasts, female figure etc. No penis as such (at least, not visible except to a pelvic ultrasound), but testes. Though they were retracted completely when it was cold.

Which bathroom should I have used? Do I look at the thermometer? Would the prospect of someone in a skirt and blouse using a male restroom not cause some comment? Here in Australia, we have stalls in restrooms, of course, so don’t go around exposing things.

Now, after some surgical replumbing, I look just like any other woman who had had a hysterectomy.

Yes, we’re a tiny minority, like those with wheelchairs, or the blind – two groups that society sees fit to make some minor accomodations for. What would you have us do?

Now the important stuff : thanks for the welcome back. It’s good to be amongst friends, especially those who remain so despite genuine and deep-seated disagreement on just about everything. Just no-one call me a Lefty, OK? Freak is acceptable.

How many of us are there? Good Question, and there are few 100% confidence figures.

One of those few is that the top 3 surgeons in the USA perform about 500 MtoF operations per year. The best estimate is 1000 per year in the US and Canada. Figures from Thai surgeons indicate another 1000 US citizens per year there, and this might be an underestimate. I went to the most expensive surgeon in Thailand, and in the month I was there, he had 13 patients from the US, about average for a month according to his business manager. When I went back for revision surgery, there were 7 in 2 weeks. He’s one of over a dozen.

So a reasonable estimate of those US citizens who have actually had the operation – or a similar one for Intersex conditions like mine – is 2000/year. This has remained constant over the last 20 years, as far as we can tell. So a reasonable estimate is 50,000, taking into account some have died, but that surgery has been performed for 30 years, not 20.

Another “reasonable estimate” is that only 1 in 10 with Gender Dysphoria serious enough to require medical treatment have the operation. Many don’t need it, hormones are enough. Many more can’t afford it. Surgery costs $10-40,000 depending on the surgeon, but the costs of FFS – facial feminisation surgery – are even higher, and then there’s the cost of electrolysis to remove facial hair. Many can only afford enough to look normal when clothed.

Leaving aside those whose hormonal dose is enough to keep their brains working right, but not enough to cause bodily changes, we’re looking at perhaps 350,000 women. Figures for men are less reliable, but we think it’s about 1/3 of that, as the surgery there is less good. A 30% success rate, and $100,000 basically, in a procedure involving up to 12 operations over some years.

So 500,000, more or less, of whom 60,000 are post-operative.

For other Intersex conditions, 1.7% of the population is technically intersexed, but most are asymptomatic. Only 1 in 1000 have conditions so severe that they cause problems. Maybe 300,000 all told.

The reason why TS people are so much more visible, is that they are so much more visible. IS people can and do usually conceal their condition. It’s only the “serials”, those whose bodies are born looking like one sex, but change to look like the other, that can’t really hide.

The most common causes are 5ARD (5-alpha-reductase-deficiency) and 17BHDD (17-beta-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase deficiency). That’s about 1 in 100,000 and 1 in 147-175,000 respectively, but all the figures are rubbery, and sources differ. In both those syndromes, baby girls grow up to be big boys.

The reverse, boys becoming girls, is perhaps 1 in 3.5 million. 3 cases known in Australia anyway, with 3 different causes. We think there are 4 causes of this. Type II is by far the most common, more than the rest put together. Types III and I are probably fatal in most cases. Type IV has only been reported in the last 3 months. But really, we’re clueless, guessing, sample sizes are too small.

The official figures for MtoF Transsexuality according to the DSM-IV (official US psych handbook) is 1 in 30,000, based on Norwegian stats from the 60′s. Since 1983 it has been forbidden to use Federal funds to study this area. The official figures from the World Professional Association for Transgender Health say 1 in 11,000, based upon Singaporean studies in the 80′s. This will be updated shortly as the result of studies in the US, UK, and re-examining historical raw data using modern statistical techniques, to about 1 in 3,000, which is in accordance with the measured surgical numbers.

Chief RZ – Snap! Great Minds Think Alike etc.

In cases where the differences aren’t obvious and upsetting, there should be no Apartheid (for that is how TG people would see it). But where they are, there should be.

People who are born Intersexed, be they Transsexual or Androgen Insensitive (or Swyer or Turner or Kleinfelter or….) are people. Some few are androgynous, neither M nor F in their brains, and they should be accommodated as best we can. But most are just Men and Women, born with bodies that don’t fit their minds. Many have deep insecurities. How does an 18 year old girl tell her Boyfriend that the reason she can’t have kids is that she’s genetically male? She only found out herself just a month ago, at the fertility clinic.

How does a guy tell his Girlfriend that the reason *he* can’t father kids is that he’s Kleinfelter, neither 46xy (male) nor 46xx (female) but 47xxy? And that although most such people look male like him, some look female, and have even given birth?

To then tell such people that they should be separated from other men and women would be terribly traumatic. It’s only in the cases of obvious physical anomalies, and where those anomalies would be both visible and distressing to others, that segregation should occur.

Thanks to everyone for your kind words, by the way.

Zoe. There are many uni-sex bathrooms at most public facilities. Would they be acceptable. They are usually designed to accommodate one-at-a-time. Would using one of those be OK. Your condition is rather unique would you not say. What % of the US Population? Would this require women to allow men into all bathrooms? I think not.

Why should the rest of us have to compromise on an issue like this because a fractional portion of the population is confused about what gender they are?

They aren’t confused. Much like liberals in general, they just refuse to accept the facts.

…the majority who might not want to shower up in front of strangers of the opposite sex.

It’s more like showering with strangers of indeterminate sex.