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Saturday, April 29, 2006

Looking for that Union Label

Earlier this week, Chris Meisenzahl at the Amateur Economist blog, noted a Baltimore Sun story about one of the unpublicized costs of being a member of the NEA, the country’s largest teachers’ union. Not satisfied with the revenue from members’ due, the unions have come up with a new way to get into their members pockets… and without the bother of actually telling them, either. Bear in mind, in most jurisdictions, such membership is not optional. If you want the job, you’re forced to join the union.

Second-grade teacher Crystal Mendez was in the staff lunchroom at 42nd Street Elementary in Los Angeles when a broker introduced herself and started talking up a retirement plan. Mendez thought she could trust the woman because her company had been endorsed by her teachers union. She agreed to put $400 a month into a retirement account, assuming her money would be invested in stocks. Just 22, she figured she had plenty of time to ride out any dips in the market.

Nearly two years later, when her boyfriend started bragging about the returns he was earning on his 401(k), Mendez took a closer look at her own account. "He was earning 15 percent a year and I was earning 3 percent," she recalled. "I thought, 'There's something wrong here.'"

Mendez's money was languishing in a fixed-rate annuity, an investment ill-suited to someone in her early 20s. Worse, she would have to pay a steep penalty to bail out.

Some of the nation's largest teachers unions have joined forces with investment companies to steer their members into retirement plans that frequently have high expenses and mediocre returns.

In what might seem an unlikely partnership, the unions endorse investment providers, even specific products, and the companies reciprocate with financial support. They sponsor union conferences, advertise in union publications or make direct payments to union treasuries.

The investment firms more than recoup their money through sales of annuities and other high-fee products to teachers for their 403(b) plans - personal retirement accounts similar to 401(k)s.

New York State United Teachers, for instance, receives $3 million a year from ING Group for encouraging its 525,000 members to invest in an annuity sold by the Dutch insurance giant.

The National Education Association, the largest teachers union in the country with 2.7 million members, collected nearly $50 million in royalties in 2004 on the sale of annuities, life insurance and other financial products it endorses.

Buyers of an NEA-endorsed annuity sold by Security Benefit Life Insurance Co. pay annual fees totaling at least 1.73 percent of their savings. That is about 10 times as much as they would pay with 403(b) plans available from Vanguard Group, T. Rowe Price and other low-cost mutual fund providers.

The costliest option in the NEA-endorsed plan charges 4.85 percent a year. That means an investor would have to earn a return of nearly 5 percent just to break even.

They are… required by federal law to disclose the total revenue from all endorsement deals. The most recent disclosure on file with the Department of Labor shows that the NEA received $49.6 million from Security Benefit Life Insurance, the provider of Valuebuilder, and other endorsed companies in 2004.

Local unions that help promote NEA-endorsed products get a share of the royalties. The Florida Education Association, for example, collected $140,000 in "program royalties" last year, federal records show. The Illinois Education Association received $178,148, while the Maine Education Association was paid $33,610.


So its not just the national unions that are feeding off the economic illiteracy of their members… the same members whose interest the union is supposed to be there to protect in the first place. State organizations are scamming their members as well. All without any requirement to inform their members just how much that union endorsement is actually costing them.

Whatever benefits union membership may have provided in the past, that advantage certainly doesn't seem to include union-endorsed financial products or services in the present. Union or no... buyer beware!

Comments

Avatar for diane

Bear in mind, in most jurisdictions, such membership is not optional. If you want the job, you’re forced to join the union

And then there are the Wal-Marts of the world where, if you join a union, the job is optional....at their option.  And they choose to fire you.

So, in this FREE MARKET and FREE SOCIETY, we all have the CHOICE of working SOMEWHERE ELSE if we don’t like the RULES, don’t WE folks?

diane on April 29, 2006 at 08:31 am
Avatar for Bat One

I’m not sure quite what your point is, Diane.  Beyond mindless cut and paste, and mindless tantrums, you tend to get a little fuzzy.

But considering the efficiency with which WalMart does their business, and the success the company, and their stockholders (smile!) have enjoyed, I’m not sure that you really want to engage in a comparison between the enormously successful WalMart and the incompetent failure of our public education system. 

Bat One on April 29, 2006 at 08:45 am
Avatar for Proofreader emeritus

"Mendez’s money was languishing in a fixed-rate annuity, an investment ill-suited to someone in her early 20s. Worse, she would have to pay a steep penalty to bail out." 

The NEA has always favored sex education in the public schools...now it’s the teachers getting screwed!

Proofreader emeritus on April 29, 2006 at 08:46 am
Avatar for robert108

"The educational system is the most highly socialized part of our society, therefore it is in the most trouble." - Milton Friedman

robert108 on April 29, 2006 at 08:49 am
Avatar for diane

Wow, BatOne, it’s amazing how you guys waffle when it comes to things that bother your side, like unions.  I thought you were trying to make the argument in most of these fine threads that there was freedom to buy gas or not, eat or not, etc., etc., ad infinitum.  Isn’t there the same freedom not to work at a union shop?  I don’t see anyone pointing a guy at your head.

and their stockholders (smile!)

Oh really?  How much gain have you made on yours in the last 5-6 years and be careful, I’ve tracked their stock prices on a semi-regular basis.

You must be talking about those who rode the giant in the ‘good ol’ days’.

However, you could have made a nice piece of change if you’d bought the new K-Mart (now ‘Sears Holding Co.) if you’d bought it when they reissued it, after they screwed all their investors and vendors, and rode it up. 

See, being a ‘great company’ doesn’t necessarily mean your stock is a good idea unless you plan on holding it for a long, long time and, even then, you can get 3rd degree burns, depending on where the analysts and manipulators want it at any given time.

diane on April 29, 2006 at 08:51 am
Avatar for diane

 pointing a guy at your head.

Actually, I did see that, but not a gun.

diane on April 29, 2006 at 08:52 am
Avatar for Bat One

Proof Prof,

Thank you, Sir!  That was hugely entertaining and I appreciate it. 

Bat One on April 29, 2006 at 08:52 am
Avatar for Bat One

"I thought you were trying to make the argument in most of these fine threads that there was freedom to buy gas or not, eat or not, etc., etc., ad infinitum." (emphasis added)

Its always this way with Leftists/Liberals/Progressives.  Being so inexperienced at actually thinking, when you do try it, you manage to muck it up.

First, please show me where I have made any such argument about "the freedom to buy gas or not, eat or not, etc." 

Next, please explain how a buying decision is in any way analogous to being forced to join a union… particularly one that rips off its own members.

Surely, you’re not going to overlook this kind of deceit and fraud against "working men and women" merely because its their own union that sticks it to them, are you?  That would be hypocrisy writ large indeed.  I mean, taking $50 million out of the pockets of your own members, on top of the exorbitant union "dues" that you actually DO tell them about.  This ain’t no chump change we’re talking about.

If nothing else, this certainly calls into question the oh-so-sanctimonious motives of the pro- union crowd. 

Bat One on April 29, 2006 at 09:15 am
Avatar for diane

I think I’m getting it:

Freedom to choose is fine unless it involves choosing not to work at a unionized shop or having an abortion.

Drugs are bad unless it’s BLOBBO using/hoarding them.

Greed is bad if it’s Democratic but fine if it’s Republican greed.

And so on and so forth....

Okay, I think I’m finally beginning to make some sense of this mass of disjointed and contradictory mindset so prevalent on the ‘blog’.

diane on April 29, 2006 at 11:59 am
Avatar for robert108

"Greed is bad if it’s Democratic but fine if it’s Republican greed."

Lefties are greedy for the earnings of others to redistribute for the purpose of acquiring and consolidating power;  free enterprisers are "greedy" for productivity to feed themselves and their families.  There is a difference.

Thanks for pointing that out. 

robert108 on April 29, 2006 at 12:06 pm
Avatar for diane

Lefties are greedy for the earnings of others to redistribute for the purpose of acquiring and consolidating power; 

 free enterprisers are "greedy" for productivity to feed themselves and their families.  There is a difference.

So the only reason free enterprisers are motivated to earn money (greed the operative word in this ‘thread’wink is for the good of themselves and their own families.  Check.  Bleep the rest of the world, unless it’s to tax people to fund an immoral war that kills other people’s families.  Check.

diane on April 29, 2006 at 12:41 pm
Avatar for robert108

You just don’t make any sense.

robert108 on April 29, 2006 at 12:44 pm
Avatar for diane

You just don’t make any sense.

Oh sure I do; and that’s what gets to you.

diane on April 29, 2006 at 01:12 pm
Avatar for Proofreader emeritus

diane: have you ever taken anything for your ADD? This thread is about how members of the teachers union...many of them altruistic and underpaid...many of them Democrats, are being screwed by their union pension fund and all you can do is ramble on about Wal-Mart, greed, drugs and… well, frankly, it’s hard to follow WHAT you’re rambling on about, but it certainly isn’t the injustice perpetrated upon these teachers by their union!

Proofreader emeritus on April 29, 2006 at 01:23 pm
Avatar for student student

http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/309613

click on "Watch this movie" 

student student on April 29, 2006 at 02:16 pm
Avatar for Proofreader emeritus

Dear student x2: Okay, I watched the movie! So, Bush is a moron, Hannity is a hypocrite and the teacher’s unions are STILL screwing the teachers? Was there a point?

Proofreader emeritus on April 29, 2006 at 02:31 pm
Avatar for diane

Since the responses in the other threads I checked on were just BobbySpeak, I’ll respond to yours:

  This thread is about how members of the teachers union...many of them altruistic and underpaid...many of them Democrats, are being screwed by their union pension fund

Well, threads do take twists and turns and it’s not always me twisting them.  Of course, since I’m the one you disagree with, that’s something you overlook on the part of the ‘gang’ here.

However, your friend Bobby108 said this about union people:

GM is paying out more money on healthcare for retired workers than they are for making cars.  This is about union demands for excessive compensation under the threat of strikes.

*********************

So, in the illogic of Republicon NeoCONS, it’s okay for union works (even retired union workers) to be screwed as long as it’s the megacorps screwing them and not their own unions.  Correct?

diane on April 29, 2006 at 02:44 pm
Avatar for Proofreader emeritus

diane: You might want to start with words and their meaning. Then we can talk about logic! What have I said that could possibly cause you to infer that I believe that it’s okay for anyone to be screwed by unions, corporations or anyone else?

Proofreader emeritus on April 29, 2006 at 03:18 pm
Avatar for diane

What have I said that could possibly cause you to infer that I believe that it’s okay for anyone to be screwed by unions, corporations or anyone else?

What have I said that could possibly cause you to infer that I believe you said anything like that?  Or are you a Republicon NeoCON?

diane on April 29, 2006 at 03:27 pm
Avatar for robert108

I said that the unions have screwed their workers and GM.  At least read it right. If the overinflated wage and pension demands take down GM, the union fat cats will be the only ones who come out on top.  Your antisemitism is showing again.  I thought all you lefties were into diversity?

robert108 on April 29, 2006 at 03:55 pm
Avatar for Proofreader emeritus

A very liberal, yet wise teacher, once taught me that name calling stops thinking.

Ad hominem attacks are not a worthy substitute for a well reasoned argument.

(Open fortune cookie, insert this side up!)

Proofreader emeritus on April 29, 2006 at 04:04 pm
Avatar for diane

A very liberal, yet wise teacher, once taught me that name calling stops thinking.

Ad hominem attacks are not a worthy substitute for a well reasoned argument.

A very wise, conservative teacher once taught me that I needed to enjoy life and laugh more and not take people so seriously.  Which is what I’m enjoying doing on this site.

I suppose that your wise teacher would consider Dhimmi, Wahhabi watercarrier, bitch, slut and other such terms used by others toward me here ‘name calling’?

diane on April 29, 2006 at 04:10 pm
Avatar for robert108

Maybe they are true. 

robert108 on April 29, 2006 at 04:14 pm
Avatar for diane

I’ll let the two of you argue it out while I leave for a short time:

Maybe they are true. 

robert108 on April 29, 2006 at 7:14 PM *****Ad hominem attacks are not a worthy substitute for a well reasoned argument.Proofreader emeritus on April 29, 2006 at 7:03 PM
diane on April 29, 2006 at 04:20 pm
Avatar for Proofreader emeritus

See, diane? Your arguments are stronger already!

Proofreader emeritus on April 29, 2006 at 04:39 pm
Avatar for robert108

It’s not good manners to namecall, like "neocon" for instance.  It also doen’t serve as a substitute for reasoned argument.  Calling leftie a leftie is just telling the truth.  It’s descriptive.  When someone just recycles hatred for the President over and over again, at some point one just says: Enough!

robert108 on April 29, 2006 at 04:52 pm
Avatar for robert108

For those of you who toss the term "neocon" around as if it’s a smear, you are in good company.  Wikipedia has been cleansed by the lefties, but they didn’t get it all.  Scroll way down, and you will find this:

"Some neo-nazi conspiracy theorists such as David Duke have attacked neoconservatism as advancing ‘Jewish interests.’ Classic anti-Semitic tropes have often been used when elaborating this view, such as the idea that Jews achieve influence through the intellectual domination of national leaders. Similarly, during the run-up to the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq, left-wing magazine AdBusters published a list of the "50 most influential neocons in the United States", noting that half of these were Jewish..."

So you see, David Duke thinks the same way you do.  Happy trails! 

robert108 on April 29, 2006 at 05:38 pm

You’re trying to tie a complex question, Robert, by appealing to coincidence.  Opposing the NeoCon reign of terror isn’t anti-semitic despite your casual fallacy.

CV Rick on April 29, 2006 at 05:47 pm
Avatar for FreeRepublicans.com

For those of you who toss the term "neocon" around as if it’s a smear, you are in good company.

It’s not so much a smear as it is Disinformation.  Because the public is led to believe a Neo-Conservative is a Conservative.  When infact a Neo-Conservative is just a Neo-Neo-Liberal. 

FreeRepublicans.com on April 29, 2006 at 05:58 pm
Avatar for Zsa Zsa

CV, Robert108,Proof...Does diane really believe that the 911 attacks on the WTC were staged by our government just so we could go to war in Iraq? Surely no one really believes that???

Zsa Zsa on April 29, 2006 at 06:00 pm
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Zsa Zsa,

Anyone who thinks that and doesn’t cite the USS Maine is just repeating something they heard.  At least mentioning the Maine shows that they have some knowledge of history; even if the premise is wrong. 

FreeRepublicans.com on April 29, 2006 at 06:02 pm
Avatar for Zsa Zsa

Free...That is the most outrageous garbage I have ever heard! That is why I really believe the Bush bashing crowd have no leverage. Actually, for anyone to buy that would have to be missing something upstairs! (if you know what I mean?)

Zsa Zsa on April 29, 2006 at 06:10 pm
Avatar for FreeRepublicans.com

The role of the commentator is to point out where the leaders they support are wrong.

But the Bush-bashers are doing that they are just seeking destruction.  Of course, I do have a problem with those on our side that defend him no matter what, but thats a whole different issue.

FreeRepublicans.com on April 29, 2006 at 06:19 pm
Avatar for Zsa Zsa

Free...How can anyone agree with another all the time? That is impossible. I would think that even identical twins or clones would have a difficult time with agreeing???

Zsa Zsa on April 29, 2006 at 06:32 pm
Avatar for student student

the point of this: 

http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/309613

 was to show the typical way this blog seems to turn. I thought it would be humorous.

/me prefers not the "with us or against us" mentality present in some "talks". 

student student on April 29, 2006 at 06:33 pm
Avatar for Zsa Zsa

Hi student! how are you?

Zsa Zsa on April 29, 2006 at 06:34 pm
Avatar for student student

Zsa Zsa, getting ready for finals! (Sort of...hehe)

student student on April 29, 2006 at 06:50 pm
Avatar for Zsa Zsa

That is good. You sound better.

Zsa Zsa on April 29, 2006 at 06:53 pm
Avatar for diane

CV, Robert108,Proof...Does diane really believe that the 911 attacks on the WTC were staged by our government just so we could go to war in Iraq?

Zsa, why ask them.  I haven’t said so they wouldn’t know. 

 noting that half of these were Jewish..."

Let’s point out where you and David Duke agree, shall we, Bobby?  I’ll bet he’s with you on the issue of immigration, for starters.  Especially if the immigrants are of a darker persuasion.

Seeing that two of my two Democratic Senators are also Jewish, I imagine that quite a few Jews are at the top of most political parties, both federal and State.  The Jewish religion and culture thereof promotes involvement in such things more than most...except for the recent surge into politicals by ‘evangelical christians’ (noncapitalized).

But, of course, we wouldn’t want to just be straightforward and honest about such things.  We would want to spin them into liberals who use the word neoCON hate Jews.  We couldn’t truthfully use anti-semitic because that would involve what NeoCONS specialize in....abusing truly semitic people, not religious people of a number of races/backgrounds.

Keep swingin’ that bat, Bobby.  You might even connect if you get extremely, extremely lucky and I have a really, really bad day.

 

diane on April 29, 2006 at 07:28 pm
Avatar for Bat One

Zsa Zsa,

You asked, ".Does diane really believe that the 911 attacks on the WTC were staged by our government just so we could go to war in Iraq?"

The answer is, it doesn’t matter one bit what Diane believes, or what Robert believes, or what I believe either.  In the end, what matters is what you believe.  Everything else is really just social aerobics. 

Bat One on April 29, 2006 at 07:30 pm
Avatar for diane

Zsa has a problem with dependency and insecurity, Batty.  But she’s likeable anyway. smile

diane on April 29, 2006 at 07:36 pm
Avatar for robert108

diane/Rick: I simply pointed out that both you and David Duke use "neocon" as a smear word.  He is honest about why he thinks neocons are bad, and the two of you are dishonest about it.  What else is new?  If you claim ignorance of the derivation of the term, now you know.

As a conservative, I don’t agree with either the real "neocon" philosophy or your version of what it is.  I think it’s a smear term with little real meaning.  I guess that’s why you use it.  Just the same, by using it the way you do, you are in step with David Duke.  Nice going! 

robert108 on April 29, 2006 at 07:50 pm
Avatar for WETBACK

I am in step with David Duke.

WETBACK on April 29, 2006 at 07:55 pm
Avatar for Elaine

Oh my. This blog should feel privileged to have a card carrying Communist monitoring and responding to free thinking Americans. It is  a complement and  privilege to be the enemy’s target and to defend  what is clearly a threat to them.

Elaine on April 29, 2006 at 07:57 pm
Avatar for diane

Take a short break, Bobby, you’re getting delirious.  I got some fresh air, spent some time with the family, had dinner and I’m as good as new (which is very good)  LOL

 I think it’s a smear term with little real meaning. 

Oh it’s a smear term all right, but there’s alot of meaning to those of us who use it.    It represents the group of people who have stolen the country and started an immoral war that’s killing tens of thousands of people and costing us a fortune and making most people in the world hate our guts and which will reap an awful harvest for us in the years to come; not only for what we did to Iraqis but for what we did to the youth (mostly male) of this country.   They will be the ones confronting you down the line, Bobby.  And you better have some good answers for them.

diane on April 29, 2006 at 07:59 pm
Avatar for Bat One

Robert108,

Just a bit of marginally useful knowledge.  I believe the term "neo-con" was first coined by Midge Dector, and first defined by Irving Kristol, Bill Kristol’s inestimable father, as "a liberal who’s been mugged back to reality."

What so annoys the left, of course, is the sense of betrayal.  What annoys the neo-cons is the left’s presumption of loyalty owed.  And so it goes... 

Bat One on April 29, 2006 at 08:01 pm
Avatar for robert108

Like I said, right in line with David Duke.  You illustrate my point.  Thanks.

robert108 on April 29, 2006 at 08:01 pm
Avatar for diane

Thank you, Robert.  You’re welcome, Batty.  You’re absolutely right, Batty.  Why thank you, Robert.

Next thing we know, you two will be running off together.

diane on April 29, 2006 at 08:04 pm
Avatar for robert108

Bat: My first experience with the term was among my antiwar "friends" in the sixties.  It referred to former liberals who had become conservative, or at least had renounced communism.  They were considered traitors by the radicals.  A lot of those people were Jewish, and were considered particularly traitorous for that reason by the antiwar crazies.  In those days, the radicals still paid lip service to cultural diversity and wouldn’t mention the Jewish aspect of it, but today’s lefties are a lot nastier(and crazier), and seem to have no shame in their obvious antisemitism.  They hate Israel and love the Islamofascists.

robert108 on April 29, 2006 at 08:06 pm
Avatar for WETBACK

Death to Israel, really those jews are worth more trouble than there worth to us, Remember how Hitler tried to deport them, no one wanted the jews.And for good reason. How long do we have to hear that complete bullcrap story called the holocaust anyway? Really, I say we give Iraq and Iran weapons of mass-destruction Stop all aid to Israel and defend our own borders.

WETBACK on April 29, 2006 at 08:22 pm
Avatar for FreeRepublicans.com

Note to Rob: Ban Wetback’s IP for pure stupidity.

FreeRepublicans.com on April 29, 2006 at 08:24 pm
Avatar for diane

They hate Israel and love the Islamofascists.

As opposed to loving the Israel Racist Apartheid state and hating the Palestinians (semitics).

diane on April 29, 2006 at 08:24 pm
Avatar for WETBACK

Why free have I committed Hate Speach? I’ll just use a proxy ass.

WETBACK on April 29, 2006 at 08:26 pm
Avatar for Elaine

I am curious. Who here believes that it that is the USA’s  responsibility to end the Middle Eastern conflict/war. Who believes that the Mid-East was peaceful before America arrived?   Who ever thought that Mid-East peace would be possible in our life time?  

 In my opinion,  the path to peace is more peaceful because of the American soldier. We can’t stop mentally ill people from blowing up schools but we can make it happen less often. God Bless the American Soldier.

Elaine on April 29, 2006 at 08:46 pm
Avatar for FreeRepublicans.com

Wetback,

I try to avoid ad hominimn attacks, but if your case I’ll make an exception.

--- 

Who here believes that it that is the USA’s  responsibility to end the Middle Eastern conflict/war.

The Neo-Cons might. 

Who believes that the Mid-East was peaceful before America arrived?  

Liberals. 

If we werent there and Israel werent there, they’d be killing eachother over how the leadership is passed down. 


 

FreeRepublicans.com on April 29, 2006 at 08:55 pm
Avatar for FreeRepublicans.com

Wetback,

Not Hate Speech, Stupid Speech.

 

FreeRepublicans.com on April 29, 2006 at 08:56 pm
Avatar for Bat One

" A lot of those people were Jewish, and were considered particularly traitorous for that reason by the antiwar crazies."

Robert,

Of course many of the early neo-cons were Jews.  They are an educated, smart, and industrious people.  A potent combination for success in virtually any field.  Much like the Chinese, actually.

As for Islamo-fascism, diversity, and hatred of Israel, I don’t credit those on the looney left with the depth of intelligence that would be required by what you describe.  Nor the necessary honesty.  Rather, I believe that they are enamored of the rush that beligerence and conspiracy provide.  Thinking requires work.  And discipline.  Feeling, on the other hand is effortless, amorphous, undisciplined and unrestricted.  Its a rush, not a thought process.  Take another look at those pictures from the last illegal alien rallies.  Notice whose face is most prominent?  Che Guevera!

Want more?  What sort of idiot lets themself be run over and killed by a bulldozer?  Poor, poor Rachel!  Or Cindy Sheehan,  or John Kerry, or any of the rest.  There is no reasoning here.  No structure.  No principle.  No rationality.  Just conceit masquerading as wisdom.  And not doing a particularly good job of it either.

Bat One on April 29, 2006 at 08:56 pm
Avatar for diane

Yes, Elaine, the American Soldier has certainly done a ‘bang up’ (pun intended) job of making Iraq peaceful, haven’t they? 

diane on April 29, 2006 at 08:57 pm
Avatar for FreeRepublicans.com

Yes, Elaine, the American Soldier has certainly done a ‘bang up’ (pun intended) job of making Iraq peaceful, haven’t they?

The soldiers have done the best they can.  Question other people’s effectiveness but don’t imply that the soldiers are at fault regardless of what you believe.  

Doing so causes people to question the whole "we support the soldiers not the war."

Supporting the soldiers means not questioning them.  Question their leaders all you want. 

FreeRepublicans.com on April 29, 2006 at 08:59 pm
Avatar for diane

Want more?  What sort of idiot lets themself be run over and killed by a bulldozer?  Poor, poor Rachel!

Another example of the compassion Batty and Bobby want us to feel for RushAddict.  Amazing how they feel such pain for a guy with a bad back who plays golf every chance he gets when he gets caught with his hand in the pharmaceutical cookie jar, but none for Rachel Corrie, who was standing up for something she believed in and put her life on the line to try to halt the bulldozing of Palestinian property by the Israelis.

Hmmm....here we have an addicted BigMouth who pays his way out of jail

Here we have a  young girl with compassion for suffering people who gives her life for a cause she believes in.

I think I know where my compassion is best placed.

diane on April 29, 2006 at 09:01 pm
Avatar for Bat One

"Supporting the soldiers means not questioning them.  Question their leaders all you want."

Free,

Too much nuance.  Try something more simplisitc. 

Bat One on April 29, 2006 at 09:04 pm
Avatar for diane

 Question other people’s effectiveness but don’t imply that the soldiers are at fault regardless of what you believe.  

Ridiculous.  They made and are making choices, just as the soldiers who went to Canada or refused to return.

Doing so causes people to question the whole "we support the soldiers not the war."

Good.  Because without the soldiers there could be no war.

Supporting the soldiers means not questioning them.  Question their leaders all you want. 

I guess then that you would place no blame on any soldiers for doing anything, including Saddam’s?

diane on April 29, 2006 at 09:04 pm
Avatar for WETBACK

wow I guess I have to be left then, after all Iam for the right to bear arms, for the death penalty, anti-abortion, for shoot to kill orders on our southern border, for Work fair and not Welfare, I could go on and on, yep Iam left thats me, you all figured it out, congratulations, and maybe in a few years you’ll figure it out.

WETBACK on April 29, 2006 at 09:06 pm
Avatar for robert108

"… the Israel Racist Apartheid state..."  If you knew anything about Israel, you would know that a rather large portion of Israeli citizens are Arabs with full citizenship rights.  They are also free to practice their religion. The Islamofascists you love so much persecute and kill non-Muslims and even Muslims of a different sect. But then, you just shoot off your hateful mouth without any thought whatsoever.

robert108 on April 29, 2006 at 09:06 pm
Avatar for FreeRepublicans.com

Question other people’s effectiveness but don’t imply that the soldiers are at fault regardless of what you believe.  

Ridiculous.  They made and are making choices, just as the soldiers who went to Canada or refused to return.

The mistakes in this war have been made at the Strategic level, not on the ground.

 

Doing so causes people to question the whole "we support the soldiers not the war."

Good.  Because without the soldiers there could be no war.

Thanks for showing your real colors.

 

Supporting the soldiers means not questioning them.  Question their leaders all you want. 

I guess then that you would place no blame on any soldiers for doing anything, including Saddam’s?

Yeah, cause our soldiers are torturing people right?  Calling Abu Graib torture is a joke. 

FreeRepublicans.com on April 29, 2006 at 09:08 pm
Avatar for diane

”.. the Israel Racist Apartheid state...” If you knew anything about Israel, you would know that a rather large portion of Israeli citizens are Arabs with full citizenship rights.  They are also free to practice their religion. The Islamofascists you love so much persecute and kill non-Muslims and even Muslims of a different sect. But then, you just shoot off your hateful mouth without any thought whatsoever.”

Mouths are only hateful when they criticize Israel, right Bobby?  Actually I know alot about Israel.  What would you like to know?

diane on April 29, 2006 at 09:10 pm
Avatar for diane

"Yeah, cause our soldiers are torturing people right?  Calling Abu Graib torture is a joke.”

Talking about showing your true colors.  If it’s such a laugh, why is our own government prosecuting military personnel involved in it?

diane on April 29, 2006 at 09:13 pm
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"Yeah, cause our soldiers are torturing people right?  Calling Abu Graib torture is a joke."

Talking about showing your true colors. If it’s such a laugh, why is our own government prosecuting military personnel involved in it?

Scapegoats. 

FreeRepublicans.com on April 29, 2006 at 09:14 pm
Avatar for robert108

There is nothing you can teach me about anything.

robert108 on April 29, 2006 at 09:14 pm
Avatar for WETBACK

I got a better question, who gives 2 craps what the arabs do as long as it doesnt  effect us, and Iraq and Iran pose and posed no threat to us. OH but they do pose a threat to our good for nothing terriorirst so callred alies Israel.

WETBACK on April 29, 2006 at 09:15 pm
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Our soldiers aren’t ripping little girls off because their fathers may have done something Saddam’s people didn’t like.

Until I hear about people losing limbs and dying, I’ll give our soldiers the benifit of the doubt, save a few loose cannons. 

FreeRepublicans.com on April 29, 2006 at 09:16 pm
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 That should read: 

Our soldiers aren’t ripping little girl’s arms off because their fathers may have done something Saddam’s people didn’t like.

Until I hear about people losing limbs and dying, I’ll give our soldiers the benifit of the doubt, save a few loose cannons.

FreeRepublicans.com on April 29, 2006 at 09:17 pm
Avatar for FreeRepublicans.com

Wetback,

I don’t give a crap about Isreal.  They have over submarine based nukes and a damn good Air Force, so they can take care of themselves.

And actually, I think it would be a mistake to mess with Iran ourselves.  Lets unleash Isreal and they can take care of teh problem. 

FreeRepublicans.com on April 29, 2006 at 09:19 pm
Avatar for diane

"Until I hear about people losing limbs and dying, I’ll give our soldiers the benifit of the doubt, save a few loose cannons.”

Where have you been the last few years? 

Goodnight, sweetheart.  You’re beyond reason.

Even TV is better than this.

diane on April 29, 2006 at 09:20 pm
Avatar for FreeRepublicans.com

"Until I hear about people losing limbs and dying, I’ll give our soldiers the benifit of the doubt, save a few loose cannons."

Where have you been the last few years? 

I’m talking about via torture at the hands of Americans.  

Stay of topic or take some ritilin. 

FreeRepublicans.com on April 29, 2006 at 09:22 pm
Avatar for WETBACK

Yea we all know that Israel will fight to the last American dies, they can defend themselves, I hope so after all we provided them with, Israel the biggest welfare state of the world can defend itself? really then what the hell are we doing over there?

WETBACK on April 29, 2006 at 09:30 pm
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really then what the hell are we doing over there?

Pissing people like you off. 

FreeRepublicans.com on April 29, 2006 at 09:31 pm
Avatar for Elaine

Yes, Diane they have. How would you know what it was like before we got there?  You are a pathetic America hating POS.  Does a burka look nice to you?  Sorry, I don’t apologize about America or our presence in Iraq. In your idea of a peaceful world, if I am allowed to keep my head, I will be  forced to keep it covered.  That might be an expression of freedom to you but not for me.

 Oh I know, Iraq didn’t fly in the bombers, but you know what, we are now in the Middle East.  Kinda clever  placement now that Iran is a threat.  We need to stay in the Middle East and protect our interests. If I had my choice, people like you would be made to live the life that you defend, burka and all. Instead, you will cowardly protest behind the line that American Soldier defends with his life.

Elaine on April 29, 2006 at 09:33 pm
Avatar for WETBACK

No where malking jews like you save and rich, screw america lets all give our blood for Israel. Years from now people well say the same thing as they did from previous wars, WE WERE LIED TO, I cant count the people who told me that about WW2.

WETBACK on April 29, 2006 at 09:36 pm
Avatar for FreeRepublicans.com

Go Elaine!

FreeRepublicans.com on April 29, 2006 at 09:36 pm
Avatar for student student

With every war, there are good and bad things happening. I’m sure there are a lot of things the media isn’t telling us or showing us that is both good and bad.

I’d really appreciate it if people supported the troops, regardless of what they think of the war. My cousin is in the military and I’m sure that he would not harm the wrong person ever. I’m sure that he would not purposely be evil like some have been. There is always a small percentage of unusual events that makes the news.

I believe that there is something wrong with Abu Ghraib. I have read an article detailing this man that was killed before his questioning was finished. They had hidden his body and preserved it completely, in order to save their asses. They had beaten him through a sack on his head, I believe. Apparently, they didn’t know he was dead, and oops. Well, perhaps they should have some better methods of obtaining secrets because it’s no use if the person dies on you. Things always seem to escalate during war in certain areas. If this isn’t torture, then I don’t know what is. 

student student on April 29, 2006 at 10:32 pm
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by the way, isn’t this thread supposed to be about teachers’ unions and retirement plans?

student student on April 29, 2006 at 10:33 pm
Avatar for Zsa Zsa

Student...The air traffic controllers strike was the most reprehensible. I had planned to try to discuss that. BUT as usual or at least lately ever thread leads to diane criticizing and critiquing. Which will end up about the war in Iraq…

Zsa Zsa on April 30, 2006 at 04:39 am
Avatar for diane

"Until I hear about people losing limbs and dying, I’ll give our soldiers the benifit of the doubt, save a few loose cannons."

Where have you been the last few years?

I’m talking about via torture at the hands of Americans.  

Stay of topic or take some ritilin. 

FreeRepublicans.com on April 30, 2006 at 12:21 AM Got any you’re hoarding, or did Rush somehow get his hands on that too?Talking to such weenies really gets tedious.  Obviously you never read or watch anything other than Rush.You complete moron, there have been reports since the war began of abuse and torture.  Our own government admits it and is trying some of those responsible.Your moldy cardboard box is cutting off your air supply.Elaine:  Your reasoning that ‘well, we’re there now and that’s a GOOD thing’ sounds like Martha Stewart on some of Rush’s drugs.What absolutely pitiful faux patriotic morons.
diane on April 30, 2006 at 09:09 am
Avatar for robert108

More foul-mouthed diatribe from diane.

robert108 on April 30, 2006 at 09:14 am
Avatar for Zsa Zsa

I had no idea that Liberals were so fond of the Palastinians and hated the jewish people? What an eye opener. I guess I shouldn’t be surprised Arafat was a guest in the White House so much his ghost is probably hanging out hoping Hillary and Bill will show up. So now, what is the appeal of the Pals? ... I am just not feeling the love there.

Zsa Zsa on April 30, 2006 at 11:44 am
Avatar for FreeRepublicans.com

Diane,

I would differenciate between ‘absuse’ and ‘torture’ - torture implies a systematic action. 

Please educate me on these limbs that have been torn off by the hands of Americans via torture, I have not heard about them and can only assume you’ve fabricated them.

FreeRepublicans.com on April 30, 2006 at 12:13 pm
Avatar for robert108

Free: When speaking of real torture, not humiliation of hazing, you are dealing with three different aspects.  The first is the use of torture for the joy of killing.  This type was used by Saddam Hussein at Abu Ghraib and other places before he was deposed by US and coalition forces.  The second is for the purposes of turning enemy combatants against their own forces, as in Vietnam.  John McCain can tell you all about it. The third is to obtain intel not available by any other means and when time is a factor.  The only one of these that could be possibly attributed to US forces is the third one, and I hope it is being used whenever it is needed, for that purpose.

robert108 on April 30, 2006 at 12:26 pm
Avatar for diane

Not at all foul Robert, truthful:

weenie: Definition and Much More From Answers.com weenie n. Informal. A wiener. Slang. A person, especially a man, who is regarded as being weak and ineffectual.
www.answers.com/topic/weenie - 31k - Cached - Similar pages

Define weenie - a Whatis.com definition

1) On bullet board systems ( BBS ) and in Internet chatting groups, a weenie is an avid but immature participant who disrupts orderly conversation.
whatis.techtarget.com/definition/ 0,,sid9_gci213355,00.html - 48k - Cached - Similar pages

 

FreeRepublic:

I would differenciate between ‘absuse’ and ‘torture’ - torture implies a systematic action.

 

Good, now justify it by bringing up some definitions of both words in common language and make them fit your dream world definitions.

 

Zsa:  We don’t hate Jews; we can just analyze the situation between Israelis and Palestinians without NeoCON blinders and programming.  By the way, Zsa, did you see the photos of Bush and Bandr Bush from Saudia Arabia schmoozing on the balcony of the White House right after 9/11???

Lady you really need to spend time reading instead of soaking up the spin here by your male heroes.

diane on April 30, 2006 at 01:03 pm
Avatar for diane

Yes, Diane they have. How would you know what it was like before we got there?  You are a pathetic America hating POS.  Does a burka look nice to you? 

Elaine, you are a moron. 

 Sorry, I don’t apologize about America or our presence in Iraq. In your idea of a peaceful world, if I am allowed to keep my head, I will be  forced to keep it covered.  That might be an expression of freedom to you but not for me.

Elaine, you are a moron.

 Oh I know, Iraq didn’t fly in the bombers, but you know what, we are now in the Middle East.  Kinda clever  placement now that Iran is a threat.  We need to stay in the Middle East and protect our interests. If I had my choice, people like you would be made to live the life that you defend, burka and all. Instead, you will cowardly protest behind the line that American Soldier defends with his life.

Elaine, you are a moron.

Thanks be to God, you only have one vote.   Too bad there are so many like you. 

diane on April 30, 2006 at 01:26 pm
Avatar for FreeRepublicans.com

Robert108,

Thats all true, but I have never heard of any torture in historical context.

Humiliation may be torture to the ego, but until it gets physical it should be a-ok when we are getting information.

Until one of these lefty wackos can show some proof that Americans are physically torturing in a way that leave permanent damage to the subject, I will give our guys the benifit of the doubt. 

FreeRepublicans.com on April 30, 2006 at 02:05 pm
Avatar for robert108

Free: You wrote:  "Thats all true, but I have never heard of any torture in historical context."  History is full of accounts of torture.  Ever hear of the Spanish Inquisition, Vlad the Impaler or the Romans?  Not to mention prewar Saddam Hussein at Abu Ghraib prison and Kurdistan.

robert108 on April 30, 2006 at 02:39 pm
Avatar for FreeRepublicans.com

Free: You wrote:  "Thats all true, but I have never heard of any torture in historical context."

We’re talking about Iraq.

I have never heard of anything in Iraq that would reach the level of torture in a historical context.

 Better?

I forget to be clear because I assume everyone knows what the topic is. 

 

FreeRepublicans.com on April 30, 2006 at 03:36 pm
Avatar for robert108

Free: The topic of this thread is how unions are ripping off their members with a phony investment scheme.  I took your statement at face value.  I do not share your assumptions.

robert108 on April 30, 2006 at 05:24 pm
Avatar for FreeRepublicans.com

Sorry.

The topic of the Post was the Union thing; the topic of the thread became something different.

You should share my assumptions, it would make thing easier.   wink 

FreeRepublicans.com on April 30, 2006 at 08:44 pm
Avatar for robert108

Huh?  Easier for you, maybe.

robert108 on April 30, 2006 at 09:02 pm
Avatar for FreeRepublicans.com

 Huh?  Easier for you, maybe.

 

Who else would I be looking out for?   We’ve previously established that no one has any responsibility  to anyone but themselves.  I’m just being a capitalist, don’t be hatin.

FreeRepublicans.com on April 30, 2006 at 09:05 pm
Avatar for robert108

I’m disagreeing with you.  That isn’t hate.

robert108 on April 30, 2006 at 09:11 pm
Avatar for FreeRepublicans.com

If I say it is, it is.  I’m a capitalist damn it!

FreeRepublicans.com on April 30, 2006 at 09:13 pm
Avatar for robert108

You just don’t know what you are talking about.  Just because you can put words together doesn’t give them meaning.  You are engaging in verbal delusion.  Not the first time.  So, you are one of the multiple personalities, eh?

robert108 on April 30, 2006 at 10:52 pm
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