Liberal Response To Campaign Finance Ruling: Let’s Change The 1st Amendment!

A group led by Ralph Nader is calling for an amendment to the Constitution denying for-profit corporations (read: businesses) free speech rights.

“Public Citizen will aggressively work in support of a constitutional amendment specifying that for-profit corporations are not entitled to First Amendment protections, except for freedom of the press. We do not lightly call for a constitutional amendment. But today’s decision so imperils our democratic well-being, and so severely distorts the rightful purpose of the First Amendment, that a constitutional corrective is demanded.
“We are formulating language for possible amendments, asking members of the public to sign a petition to affirm their support for the idea of constitutional change, and planning to convene leading thinkers in the areas of constitutional law and corporate accountability to begin a series of in-depth conversations about winning a constitutional amendment.”

The problem? Corporations are people too in that they represent their employees and investors, and to a lesser extent their customers. Are we to believe that a business interest cannot, for instance, speak out against regulations that might be detrimental to its operations?
Setting politics aside, what are the implications here? Oil companies cannot advocate for expanded allowances for drilling? Green power companies cannot advocate for the government subsidies and mandates that keep them afloat? Small businesses can’t advocate against labor laws and taxes that might put them out of business?
What if I’m a small businessman who repairs bicycles. I have one employee. I incorporated my business because of the tax advantages. One day, some politician decides we should ban bicycles. This constitutional amendment would have it that I would have no right to speak out against that law?
This is patently ridiculous, though telling it that it shows just how much disdain some on the left seem to have for our constitution.

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  • http://Array sayanything-15427

    The left doesn’t like a level playing field, all things being equal too many people choose to side with the right. Thus they work the system to tilt as far to the left as possible, in order to keep people from choosing sides without a long uphill climb back to conservatism.

  • sayanything-203

    Yes! Correct. On the basic level that is what politics is about.
    And that is why you espouse your views. Not necessarily because they would benefit me.

    E,

    Not much room for principle in that explanation of yours, is there? Odd, too, because its usually those on the Left who are braying about the need to sacrifice… all that “greater good” stuff Democrats spread around like so much fertilizer.

  • sayanything-287

    Please show us in the Constitution wherein those “people” when running successful corporations that, fuel the economy and produce jobs and prosperity; are denied rights in the political arena to use their money and voices to try and sway votes that, may be counterproductive to their indispensable role in our society or to promote votes that better enable them to do business and help the nation gain in power throughout the world.

    No one believes in a nation “of, by and for the people” more than conservatives, it is just that we believe it is “people” running those corporations and that they are citizens with the sames rights as everyone else.

  • robert108

    If by “outsiders”, Mike, you mean thugs like Soros, I hope you’re right. Real Americans have lots of organizations to choose from that represent their views.

  • sayanything-5371

    So, you are in a better position to interpret the constitution than the SCOTUS? Their ruling is the highest law of the land. They determine what is constitutional. Not you, imbecile.

  • robert108

    You can’t debate a hypothetical, which is why lefties are so fond of making things up.

  • robert108

    “There are likely more than 250 million Americans who don’t share your view of what America is and should be…”

    Not even close, Mike. The majority of Americans self-identify as either “conservative” or “mostly conservative”, so your guess is way off.

    “..and I’m using “conservative” in the sense that you use it.”

    No, you’re not.
    Sorry if I got your original hypothesis wrong, Mike, but your statement that somehow your contentions about “ease of fundraising” isn’t the point of the SCOTUS decision at all. It’s about the First Amendment rights of all citizens, including those who are in corporations.
    The majority of Americans are not members of either labor unions or the MSM, which was what I meant, Mike. Those two groups were given special rights by McCain/Feingold, and it is entirely proper to eliminate their favored status when it comes to political speech.
    Do yourself a favor, and speak for yourself; you always get it wrong when you attempt to speak for me.

  • sayanything-4603

    missed “not” have been an issue

  • sayanything-45

    Why the one source exemption I wonder…free speech being free speech and all.

  • robert108

    “My point all along has been the individual vs the corporation vs the labor union.”

    You lie, Marxist! Individuals and corporations enjoy a mutually beneficial relationship, and the labor unions are parasites on both.

  • sayanything-15427

    22nd amendment is next, quickly followed by 2nd and 10th amendments. The latter especially so if more states pass exceptions to healthcare and in-state gun laws.

  • sayanything-45

    I think the problem is that the corporation isn’t expressing free speech but rather individuals are expressing free speech through a corporate proxy. Some will argue that a corporation has an interest in government policy and thus in the politicians who will pass and enact legislation but that corporate interest really isn’t anything more than the collective interest of the corporation’s owners who already enjoy the right of free expression. Why should a Microsoft shareholder, or a Steelworker for that matter, be afforded a greater opportunity to influence political decision making? I admit I’m suspicious of the role that money plays in the political process but I’m not saying that third parties shouldn’t enjoy the opportunity to participate through advertising and other vehicles of expression, just that it’s reasonable IMO to regulate it. I note that the Supreme Court held that disclosure must accompany the expression and perhaps that’s sufficient for transparency purposes but if Americans are complaining about the lack of response to their concerns and desires then I don’t think they should be particularly happy with this decision.

  • sayanything-45

    Soros, through any variety of legal entities, can now spend as much as he wants on political advertising so you’re not rid of him yet.

  • robert108

    Now you’re just making things up. How do you expect to be taken seriously?

  • sayanything-45

    You imply that the lack of a conservative counterweight is a problem because in fact some of things Soros advocates are in the interests of Americans…perhaps you’re confusing “conservative” with “American.”

  • HG

    “Many will intreat the favor of the prince: and every man is a friend to him that giveth gifts.”

    “The King by judgment establisheth the land: but he that receiveth gifts overthroweth it.”

    Undoubtedly, there is good cause for concern over coporate “gifts” to poiticians. I’m not real familiar with the rules governing those gifts, but if I’m not mistaken individual gifts are limited too. Something like $2000 max?

    Maybe some clarification is needed here. Exactly what contributions are now allowed that previosly were not? What amounts are allowed? Is there a difference in the amount an individual can give?

  • sayanything-45

    I wasn’t aware that lack of a conservative financial counter weight to Soros was a problem. I suppose this ruling opens up the field for trade union spending as well?

  • sayanything-15427

    Thanks E! Newegg is awesome, but I don’t own a desktop any more and have 250GB on the lappy. Thanks for the info though. Only one problem, you didn’t offer a link. ;)

  • sayanything-4603

    ellines your banter with wwhf was interesting how ever it looked like you ended up on his dinner plate. obama got so much free support during his campain from the leftist media and oprah, oprah is a corperation/business. this ruling may have been such issue if not at this time, with all the attacks on business, just remember behind a business is the costumers and employee and both have their own political beliefs so it is just an extention of free speech.

  • sayanything-203

    I voted for Obama because as a working person (retired 2 1/2 years now) have benefited more from the Democrats, then from the Republicans.

    Ah, yes. Enlightened self interest.

    And when Republicans behave the same way you are pleased to call it greed. And when corporations do it, you call that buyiing votes. Right?

    So, how exactly was your vote paid for, E?

  • sayanything-45

    Your original hypothesis was that in granting free access to political speech, somehow freedom of speech is being threatened by SCOTUS overturning this particularly bad piece of legislation.

    No…my original hypothesis was that since neither the Democrats nor the Republicans have much trouble attracting money, the decision will serve to reinforce elite control of the political process at the expense of the average citizen.

    Again, the “counterweight” is representing the wishes of the majority of Americans, Mike.

    Again, you’re equating conservative wishes with American wishes. There are likely more than 250 million Americans who don’t share your view of what America is and should be…and I’m using “conservative” in the sense that you use it.

  • sayanything-3110

    so the liberals were calling people names and calling people stupid to get their point across, in lieu of facts. sounds to me that the left does that all the time as per Kieth Olberman yesterday he called Brown so many names you lost sight of the facts . about five names he called him in a row with out taking a breath, So yes media has the floor but the people vote and that is what we will do in November . to take that free speech away from corporations is to take it from every owner of the corporation and its employees . some where there is a human behind speaking not some corporation. I thought the McCain Fine as gold law hurt the small guy more then the big guys ? Oh dang I called someone a name instead of his her correct name shame on me . there are still limits on donations for any one but yes they can donate to the party more than a candidate ..

  • sayanything-45

    I think the problem that some people have with free speech is that it’s rarely “free” in those forums that are most significant and influential…television advertising for example.

  • lioncourt

    So, you are in a better position to interpret the constitution than the SCOTUS? Their ruling is the highest law of the land. They determine what is constitutional. Not you, imbecile.

    Glad you agree that abortion is legal. I mean the Supreme Court says so.

  • robert108

    Despite your continuing disgusting fantasies, I will continue to smack your lies and ignorance with the truth. You didn’t know what “reactionary” meant until I told you the right term, you worthless lying narcissist!
    All you do here is spread lies, shyt and ignorance. You never contribute anything worthwhile to any conversation. We would be better without your worthless comments.

  • robert108

    If we want labor unions to have a level playing field, we should start with removing their exemption from antitrust legislation.
    Of course, Obama’s taxpayer-funded union payoffs should also be refunded.

  • lioncourt

    Isn’t this the way it is supposed to be done?

    Corporations aren’t people.

    This constitutional amendment would have it that I would have no right to speak out against that law?

    No it doesn’t. As an individual you can speak out as much as you like.

    Corporate personhood is a legal fiction created to keep states from being able to regulate railroads in the 1800s.

  • robert108

    Which Party created the bubble in the first place, then blocked all efforts to restore fiscal responsibility in the mortgage market?
    The only true greed is in govt, which contributes nothing, but in the case of leftie govt, wants all the power.
    BTW, the housing bubble wasn’t “$10 trillion”; that is the amount of Obama’s wasteful spending, ultimately. Some of the housing assets are still worth something.
    Take that basic econ class, AV.

  • robert108

    More ignorance from you, AV! The First Amendment was to enable freedom of political speech, as well as private speech. Read up on some history, so you don’t continue to humiliate yourself.

    Conservatives are individualists, while you lefties are collectivists. More ignorance from you.

  • robert108

    “d) Is Scott Brown a reactionary? We all react to different things. Nothing to see here.
    Let’s move along. Olberman is wrong again.”

    You obviously don’t know what “reactionary” means, since you confuse it with “reactive”.
    Why don’t you at least consult a dictionary before making an even greater fool out of yourself?

    Always glad to smack you with facts and logic. Your lame attempts to distract from your lie about Christian terrorism are laughable.

  • sayanything-51

    Q: Why did the anti America SCOTUS grant free speech rights to non human entities?

    A: They hate America.

  • sayanything-203

    Sorry. But I’ve been dealing with one “progressive” adolescent off and on this afternoon. I have neither the time nor the patience for your drivel. Go recite your illiterate leftist liturgy to someone else.

  • sayanything-45

    Only millionaires could vote? I should think more and feel less? What on earth does any or all of that mean?

  • sayanything-5371

    Here is what Overbite said, ellinas, you dung eater. But you already knew this. Keith Overbite and his Countdown to No Ratings show is a joke, much like you.

    “In short, in Scott Brown we have an irresponsible, homophobic, racist, reactionary, ex-nude model, teabagging supporter of violence against woman and against politicians with whom he disagrees. In any other time in our history, this man would have been laughed off the stage as an unqualified and a disaster in the making by the most conservative of conservatives. Instead, the commonwealth of Massachusetts is close to sending this bad joke to the Senate of the United States.”

  • robert108

    Again, rbb, to avoid future humiliation for your obvious ignorance, educate yourself.
    To dumb it down for you: Be sure to engage brain before putting mouth in gear.
    Of course, if the proper information isn’t in your brain, better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak and remove all doubt.

    I suggest some reading in economic history, especially regarding the Sherman Anti-Trust Act and what led up to its passage.

  • big jim

    ellinas you for got your ‘s’

  • sayanything-4603

    you are coming up with a unlikely senario but maybe a cooler or just go back to the hunt and gather every day, this would be what oboma would support any way as you wouldn’t use power there by saving the planet plus it would give meaning to life closer to his third world etopia. just stick to good debate its better than living in a fanticy how ever that does happen to a point as most US corperations are leaving the US for better tax issues there is electrolux, wirlpool, hair, and lg.
    lets hope that with open debate that obama discloses how much and whare some of the odd donners with questional names that could have come from evil corperations

  • robert108

    It was a problem, as I have already stated; the MSM is effectively the Dem Ministry of Propaganda, and is the recipient of Soros money, both directly and indirectly, so it was a big problem.
    Also, I never said anything like “conservative counterweight”, Mike; I was talking about everyone with American values and interests. Soros is a foreigner who wishes to plunder our economic system and to socialize America.

  • sayanything-51

    Big 180, is a corporation a person in your little world?

  • sayanything-51

    Yes, yes it does.

  • robert108

    The real problem the lefties have with individual free speech is that it counters the power of community organizers.

    “Corporate personhood is a legal fiction created to keep states from being able to regulate railroads in the 1800s.”

    Wrong again, LC! Corporations were created as a result of the Sherman Anti-Trust Act, designed to transfer power from the private sector trusts to the govt by creating corporations and outlawing the trusts. In order to give some incentive, the govt offered a lower corporate income tax rate than the individual rate, plus limitation of liability, which made the corporation a “person” who was then responsible for any debts and liabilities of the corporation, rather than the personal assets of the officers and shareholders.

    Corporations are quasi-governmental entities; the real private sector is composed of non-incorporated businesses, both single proprietor and partnerships.

  • sayanything-45

    Please don’t make me walk you back through our exchanges because you know it always ends badly for you. I brought up “conservative” because you bill your political outlook as “conservative” and you were IMO conflating Your point of view with that of Americans generally…that’s not really putting words in your mouth is it? I haven’t misstated anything you have said on this thread, as a quick review on your part will clearly show.

    I won’t read Ann Coulter but I’ll take your word that her column is excellent. I will note however that your belief that this decision grants millions of Americans more freedom of speech than they had before is an interesting take.

    Have I ever mentioned that I’m not a Marxist nor do I possess a Marxist prejudice against business? If not, then rest assured that I’m not and that I don’t. I certainly see downsides to capitalism that you don’t, in terms of its morality and its ability to function without external intervention, but neither of them flow from the works of Marx as far as I know.

  • sayanything-287

    It is McCain-Feingold that is unconstitutional! I do not care what SCOTUS may say, it needs to be overturned completely. Whether a person, small business or multi-national corporations it is the right of every one to spend whatever money they have or can collect, even on the day of an election to say this law or that law is wrong or a candidate is a saint or devil. That is what the First Amendment is all about, it is messy at times, but either it means what it says or it is completely meaningless.

    Such a Constitutional Amendment will never get enough signatures to go anywhere!

  • Hanitized

    then no one wins or loses. Why freak out, Sheik? A Turk making a Greek do!!!…A greek making an Israeli hot….An Israeli making a palestinian one of Heffs hotties, no wonder Palestinians hate Israelis, maybe Israelis kill Heff?Maybe Israelis kill gold medals in Munich ’72, greedy jewz!

  • robert108

    The parrot mimics the words, with no understanding of what they mean.

  • robert108

    Hypotheticals, especially your biased and far-fetched ones, are not “examples” of anything besides your own imagination.
    You have no examples, so you are just making things up. Pure dishonesty.
    Onslaught asked you for examples, and you have none.

  • sayanything-45

    My understanding is that the Court’s decision relates to third party political advertising and not contributions to politicians per se. Americans are no longer fettered by regulations governing how much can be spent and when it can be spent. Presumably politicians are still limited in their spending because that doesn’t fall under First Amendment protected freedom of expression although I’m not sure why it doesn’t. I’m sure somebody will explain it to me though. ;)

  • robert108

    There is also the taking of life, liberty and property without due process of law, starting with establishing probable cause.

  • robert108

    “…in fact some of things Soros advocates are in the interests of Americans…”

    Got any examples? I’m not confused at all, Mike, but nice try at distraction with personal attack, though.

    Of course, you’re now trying to change the subject. Your original hypothesis was that in granting free access to political speech, somehow freedom of speech is being threatened by SCOTUS overturning this particularly bad piece of legislation.
    I will repeat that assuming big contributors will automatically be corrupt is a violation of the Fourth Amendment, if that assumption is used to deprive them of their free speech rights.
    Simply disliking big corporations is not probable cause for depriving those people of their right to support the polticial candidates of their choice.
    Again, the “counterweight” is representing the wishes of the majority of Americans, Mike. On the healthcare takeover, a majority of Americans don’t want it, and have never wanted it, but the big media, including the entertainment industry, has been saturating us with the lie that Americans want it.
    That’s the “counterweight” to the leftie media monopoly to which I’m referring, so don’t be confused with your personal political prejudices.

  • sayanything-5371

    Provide a link that shows that free speech in the constitution doesn’t apply to organizations or shut up.

    Thanks for admitting you hate the constitution, mademoiselle boob.

  • sayanything-203

    It was never easy for me. I was born a poor black child. I remember the days, sittin’ on the porch with my family…

    Navin R. Johnson

  • robert108

    Sorry, Mike, but you’re wrong, in that many other American entities can now counter him, where he had the field to himself under McCain/Feingold. In addition, something no one has yet mentioned, is that McCain/Feingold empowered media corporations, while restricting other businesses and private individuals.
    It’s understandable, as all the media corporations except Fox, act as the Dem Ministry of Propaganda.

  • robert108

    Why not deal with reality, instead of just making stuff up?
    If you knew anything about economics, you would know that the profits from monopoly, in a free market, immediately attract competition, which eliminates the monopoly. Only in your leftie world, where monopolies are created by govt favoritism, is your made-up scenario a possibility.
    If you’re really concerned, support free markets and a minimum of govt regulation to assure the proper conditions for competition, instead of govt mandates for predetermined outcomes, which is known as “market-rigging”.
    In a free market, the only way monopolies can even exist is because one company develops a superior product at the best price.
    That’s better for everybody.

  • robert108

    Wrong again, Mike! In the first place, you don’t speak for me, so you are not the authority on what I “mean”.
    Just to smack you with the truth again, when I said originally that now the majority of Americans would regain their free speech rights, I was referring to the majority of Americans who don’t belong to labor unions, one of Soros’ 527 organizations or the MSM. Under McCain/Feingold, those groups had special free speech rights denied to all other Americans.
    It was you who started all the BS about “conservatives”, which was not what I meant.
    Again, I remind you that when you try to put words in my mouth, you always get it wrong. If you can’t make an argument without misstating what I say, you have nothing to offer.
    Your comment about corporations is also BS, since the news corporations had special free speech rights under McCain/Feingold, so you are trying to discriminate between some corporations and others on the basis of what? How do you justify your discrimination here?
    Your Marxist prejudice against business has led you astray, since it’s really the large majority of Americans who regained their full free speech rights here, which they had before McCain/Feingold.
    If you really care “how political life will evolve”, I suggest you read Ann Coulter’s excellent column on the subject. You can find it on her website.

    The real problem here is big and intrusive govt. Nobody would be protesting govt and trying to vote against it if it wasn’t trying to suck up all the power. When big govt can take over corporations and limit pay, along with firing the CEO, corporations, and the Americans they serve, have to be able to fight back, the McCain/Feingold restricted that right.
    Reversing that will enable us to hold govt’s feet to the fire.

  • Lioncourt

    All that happened is that the Supremes just made it easier to buy influence, nothing else.

    Free speech is a red herring.

  • sayanything-5371

    It may be technically legal, but its still murder and totally immoral. Ruth Bader Ginsburg is a nutjob who has stated she voted for Roe V. Wade because she thought it was a good way to get undesirables out of society, meaning blacks. She is a racist eugenicist.

    Here’s what Supreme Court Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg said in Sunday’s New York Times Magazine: “Frankly I had thought that at the time [Roe v. Wade] was decided,” Ginsburg told her interviewer, Emily Bazelon, “there was concern about population growth and particularly growth in populations that we don’t want to have too many of.”

    http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=ZmFlNjVkNjdlZjk1MmFlZmZkZDQyNDY0YTBlY2FjNGQ=

  • sayanything-45

    The majority of Americans self-identify as either “conservative” or “mostly conservative”, so your guess is way off.

    But they’re conservative in the usual sense and not in your sense…see http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/conservatism for clarity’s sake.

    Sorry if I got your original hypothesis wrong, Mike, but your statement that somehow your contentions about “ease of fundraising” isn’t the point of the SCOTUS decision at all. It’s about the First Amendment rights of all citizens, including those who are in corporations.

    I was talking about the impact of the decision rather than the decision itself. FWIW, it doesn’t make any sense IMO to grant corporations the same Constitutional rights that citizens enjoy but I’ve chosen not to engage that point and I’m not doing so here. For the purposes of this thread, I’ve assumed that the decision was the correct one and I’m contemplating how political life will evolve with the new rules. E.g. it becomes much easier for foreign nationals and governments to inject their opinions in American campaigns through the use of American domiciled corporations.

  • robert108

    You really don’t know the definition of “corporation”, do you, rbb?
    Before you humiliate yourself any more, I suggest you educate yourself.

  • sayanything-45

    Since neither of the American parties have much difficulty attracting money I suspect the losers will be those who aren’t part of the current political system and culture. This may have been the right decision constitutionally speaking but it certainly makes it harder for outsiders and their ideas to find a place I would think.

  • sayanything-5371

    You resort to name calling for no reason whatsoever.
    Why?

    Because when I provided a link that showed that “neo-con” is liberal code for jew you still jerked me off. In fact the evidence of that is all over the internet, if you care to look. And don’t give me that civilized debater crap. I’ve seen the vicious nasty shyt you dish out.

    Oh and the “teabagging” thing is a homosexual innuendo. In fact it is the TEA PARTY movement. When I went to school the Boston Tea Party was considered a patriotic act against tyranny. The TEA PARTY movement is the same patriotic spirit.

    And, oh the irony, that the “Scott Heard ‘Round The World” is from Massachusetts where the first TEA PARTY took place.

    You will suffer and suffer even more in November and even more in 2012 for the tyranny that the democrats are forcing on the USA.

  • sayanything-4603

    correct but custumers and employees support through choices to work ,spend and invest. my comments were there because the two of you presented your beliefs and that is what “good” debate is about

  • sayanything-15427

    You know the responses to all the political upheaval lately vary amongst progressives. Except for the bickering I think E here has been rather intelligent and center leaning lately. Of course I’m still catching up on today’s posts.

  • sayanything-2804

    I do not accept you hypothetical premise. I have shown an you actual incidence of influence buying, you have shown me… nothing.

  • sayanything-453

    I voted for Obama because as a working person (retired 2 1/2 years now) have benefited more from the Democrats, then from the Republicans.

  • sayanything-453

    All that happened is that the Supremes just made it easier for the moneyed to buy influence, not just those the left or the right approves of.

    Free speech would not exist if the responsibility of defending it were left solely to the left or the right.

  • sayanything-453

    Onslaught, rhetoric and sarcasm aside are you ok with this:

    a)The Trojan Condom Corporation, will be able to spend one hundred million dollars ($100,000,000) to defeat Sarah Palin, if they so wish.

    b)Bill Gates can spend two billion dollars ($2,000,000,000) and have elected a president and congress that outlaws all non Microsoft software.

  • sayanything-453

    No! No, no no! I do not want an uneven playing field.
    A level playing field is what I am after.

  • sayanything-256

    Cool, Nader is right on the money, yet again. The constitution was clearly meant for citizens of the US, for people. Surely you conservatives remember “we the people…”?

    This is one more example of liberals understanding the constitution, in word and in spirit, and conservatives not. Maybe if you conservatives were individualists you would understand that Nader is correct here.

  • sayanything-453

    The playing field has been leveled, and you can’t stand that at all.

    It has not. Now the unions, the moneyed and corporations have an advantage over you and I.

    And of course they had an advantage over you and I, prior to this.

    My point all along has been not the labor union vs the corporation,
    but the moneyed against the average citizen.
    From what I see, we went past each other many time because we both had our points in mind.
    I understand and agree with what you are saying. Hopefully you feel the same about my view on the issue.

  • sayanything-453

    So you whored yourself out and you were a leach.
    Very admirable.

    So says you.
    I was born to peasant Greek farmers who owned some land and through years of hard work increased their holdings.
    We farmed wheat, corn, sesame, and legumes, raised cattle, sheep, goats and poultry. Had and still have almond and pear orchards. I went to elementary school, junior high and high school (high school was not compulsory during my time). Studied and received an degree in archaeology at Kings College in jolly old England. received a degree in coastal, open ocean and celestial navigation, from the Merchant Nautical Academy of Northern Greece. Studied Naval architecture, Marine biology, Marine Geography Sphaerical Trigonometry English and calculus. Served in the Greek Armed Forces ( was detached to NATO), and was almost fooled to being a mercenary in Angola to fight against the Cubans.
    Captained and traveled the world aboard many seafaring vessels including the 397 foot long yacht href=”http://yachts.monacoeye.com/yachtsbysize/pages/atlantisii01.html” title=”ATLANTIS II”>ATLANTIS II, spend a year in Monte Carlo Monaco, about nine months cruising the beautiful Caribbean Sea, and traveled extensively in the incomparable Mediterranean Sea. Met and mingled with some famous, and some shady characters, including Haiti’s Baby Doc Jean-Claude Duvalier.
    I enjoyed myself immensely. Never worked hard, always worked smart.
    Married into the storied Japanese family of politicians and industrialists, the Shibuya family. A whole section of Tokyo is named after them. The Shibuya district.
    Then after all that I ended up in f*cking Stockton California and here I am blogging the day away with you.
    I whored to no one. I sold my highly sought skills to the highest bidder, and retired young.

    If you recall a few days ago, I mocked suitepotato in something he wrote. What I wrote about me then and now is true.
    I went from riding a donkey to commanding a naval vessel.
    I build my own computers, even though when I was growing up we had no electricity in my village.
    I have no regrets in my life and would not change a thing.

    Always remember, there are leaches and parasites that are very sought after and very beneficial to their carriers and hosts.

  • http://sayanythingblog.com robport

    Acutally, Mike, there is no limit in political spending. Only a limit in how much they can take from any one source.

    And as far as I’m concerned, free speech means free speech. Whether we’re talking about advertising done by third-parties or politicians.

  • sayanything-453

    …When you cast aspersions on the other person’s character, that is an attack that has nothing to do with their reasoning; it just expresses anger toward someone who disagrees with you. That is not an effective argument.

    robert108 on September 27, 2006 at 02:30 am

  • sayanything-2804

    Would it bother you to provide an example of your doomsday scenario, or will fear mongering, which, correct me if I’m wrong, you deplore when perceived as coming from the Right, suffice.

    The ends justify the means of the left?

  • sayanything-2804

    So you whored yourself out and you were a leach.

    Very admirable.

  • sayanything-453

    He promised me that corporations like Trojan and Microsoft have purchased elections I would like to get some specifics, that’s all.

    Now, how have I promised the above?
    All I did was ask two specific questions, that you have not answered, or I have missed your answer:

    a) Will you be OK with it, if the Trojan Condom Corporation, during the 2012 presidential election spent $100,000,000 million dollars to defeat Sarah Palin (assuming she is going to run)?

    b) Will you be OK with it, if Microsoft spends two billion dollars ($2,000,000,000) and have elected a president and congress that outlaws all non Microsoft software.

  • sayanything-453

    Now with this new ruling the Trojan Condom Corporation, will be able to spend one hundred million dollars ($100,000,000) to defeat Sarah Palin, if they so wish.
    Bill Gates can spend two billion dollars ($2,000,000,000) and have elected a president and congress that outlaws all non Microsoft software.
    I am sure that is exactly what the framers of the constitution had in mind.
    Everyone has a voice, but some voices are more “equal” then others.

  • sayanything-2804

    Hopefully you feel the same about my view on the issue.

    I’m afraid I do not, I believe that all U.S. citizens Rich and Poor alike posses inalienable, constitutionally protected rights.

  • sayanything-1317

    Even that is muddied thinking. Some individuals enjoy more of a voice than others due to any number of reasons. I went into that above. Al Franken would’ve enjoyed a louder voice than mine even before the election, because he’s a well known author and comedian. The NRA (another collection of individuals) will hold a louder voice than yours.

    If a business can lobby, and they can create ads, and they can have PR firms, and this and that, why can’t corporations speak out publically about things that aren’t in their interests? I’m not hearing an answer to that.

  • sayanything-453

    No ouch Kenny. You are OK in my book, as is GIA and Carick.
    My point was and is: How much should they be allowed to spend?
    $1,000,0000 or $1,000,000,000. Limited like a person or unlimited.

  • bikebubba

    To help out lyin’ court here, “incorporation” comes from the Latin “in corporare,” to form into a body, and gives a business or other entity a legal “body” with which it may access the courts. More or less, Nader is attacking the right of free association as well as the right of free speech, as the former is central to the very concept of a legal corporation.

  • sayanything-2804

    Yet you are perfectly fine with the abridgment of freedoms for one group of people and the blatant favoritism of Unions?

  • sayanything-453

    Will you be OK with a union giving $60,000,000 during the 2008 presidential election to buy a president?

    Amnswer to the above: No!

  • sayanything-453

    you are coming up with a unlikely senario but maybe a cooler or just go back to the hunt and gather every day, this would be what oboma would support any way as you wouldn’t use power there by saving the planet plus it would give meaning to life closer to his third world etopia. just stick to good debate its better than living in a fanticy how ever that does happen to a point as most US corperations are leaving the US for better tax issues there is electrolux, wirlpool, hair, and lg.
    lets hope that with open debate that obama discloses how much and whare some of the odd donners with questional names that could have come from evil corperations

    I just answered your question about choice.
    Not sure what you are trying to say.

  • sayanything-453

    Yes I dish out shyt to those that are unwashed, and refuse to be polite.
    Exceptions to that rule are my homeboy Proof, Onslaught just because I don’t believe he means what he says, and has prove that he can be civil. Spartacus because he is honest, witty, probing, polite intelligent and thoughtfull.
    A Citizen, because he is beyond reproach. The man can walk on shyt, and will come clean on the other side. He has all the qualities that I attributed to the rest of the fellows. He is a gentleman’s gentleman. Is he partisan? Hell yea! As he should be. But he is American first.

    I am trying hard, and willing to give you a chance, because I see something inside you.
    We will disagree on many issues, So what! You will talk shyt, and I will do the same.
    But when I tell you what “neocon” means to me, I am telling you the truth. Period.

  • http://sayanythingblog.com robport

    Right. I mean, only millionaires had a vote in America before McCain-Feingold!

    I honestly believe, Mike, that you need to think more and feel less.

  • sayanything-453

    Well I’m gonna to go then. And I don’t need any of this. I don’t need this stuff, and I don’t need you. I don’t need anything except this…ahstray.

    Navin R. Johnson

    Jerk!

  • sayanything-453

    ndoldman, if corporation “FROST” produces all the refrigerators, and at the end of the manufacturing process slap a different sticker on the refrigerator for each retail outlet, where is my choice?

  • sayanything-453

    Tell me, were you self employed for your entire working life?

    No! I worked the private and public sector.

  • sayanything-453

    Will you be OK when, to all outward appearances, that President appears to be bought?

    Answer to the above: No!

  • sayanything-453

    Onslaught. My oh my! We both know, my examples are just that. Examples.
    However for arguments sake, please consider what I am asking:
    Will you be OK with it, if the Trojan Condom Corporation, during the 2012 presidential election spent $100,000,000 million dollars to defeat Sarah Palin (assuming she is going to run)?
    Or are you going to vocalize the “leftie run corporation meme”.

  • sayanything-453

    Darn links:

  • sayanything-453

    That should speak up as citizens, not corporations.
    Now with this new ruling the Trojan Condom Corporation, will be able to spend one hundred million dollars ($100,000,000) to defeat Sarah Palin, if they so wish.
    Bill Gates can spend two billion dollars ($2,000,000,000) and have elected a president and congress that outlaws all non Microsoft software.
    I am sure that is exactly what the framers of the constitution had in mind.
    Everyone has a voice, but some voices are more “equal” then others.

  • sayanything-2804

    He promised me that corporations like Trojan and Microsoft have purchased elections I would like to get some specifics, that’s all.

    He has promised me that he seeks a level playing field for all participants of group politics.
    If he is sincere, then I fail to see why he won’t rejoice in Unions losing their unfair advantage in this field.

  • sayanything-2804

    So if the corporation is to your liking you don’t care if they “buy an election”.

    Plus it would be nice if you could point to an election that was purchased.

  • sayanything-2804

    individual vs the corporation

    You say you are retired, assume that means from work.

    Tell me, were you self employed for your entire working life?

  • sayanything-453

    I go back and forth to Greece and Japan often.
    No reason to stay in one place when you have three.
    Keep on harping and sniping.
    I don’t give a flying f*ck.

  • sayanything-2804

    democrats, of course. you see a secret they’ve been keeping from you is… there are democrats in congress, don’t tell anyone I told you.

  • sayanything-453

    I do not accept you hypothetical premise. I have shown an you actual incidence of influence buying, you have shown me… nothing.

    You do not have to accept a thing, nor do I expect you.
    I have no examples to show you, as the old rules did not allow for the corporation to exert that kind of influence.
    My point all along has been the individual vs the corporation vs the labor union.
    Yours IMO, and correct me if I am wrong, has been the corporation vs the labor union.
    Not a apples to apples comparison.

  • sayanything-1317

    No speaking of me? Ouch. Oh well.

    Regardless. To your trojan point…why shouldn’t they be allowed to speak out against Sarah Palin? ABC news is a corporation. Should they not report on politics or have editorials leading up to any election? What about NBC? CBS? FOX? CNN? These are all corporations. Media Matters? Heritage? Etc?

    We understand that Corporations have every other right (and responsibility) of private citizens. It’s beyond bizarre to claim they didn’t mean buisnesses too.

  • sayanything-453

    I’m afraid I do not, I believe that all U.S. citizens Rich and Poor alike posses inalienable, constitutionally protected rights.

    True enough.
    But the rich/poor distinction IMO gives the rich a better playing field, not an even playing field.

  • sayanything-98

    They—or anyone else can. All they or anyone else needs is 3/4ths of the State legislatures votes.

  • sayanything-2804

    Apparently you do, you really are too stupid to recognize how transparent your lies are.

  • sayanything-2804

    Give me the figures on the amount of free attack ads put out by NBC corp,. CBS corp ABC corp, CNN corp, etc. corp, etc. corp, etc. corp, then we’ll talk about who has Freedom of Speech, and who, fascist greeklings who learned nothing from history, have decided do not deserve the protections of the U.S. Constitution.

    Oh, and do try not to trip over you rage at the thought that I have the audacity to think that people you don’t like actually even have rights.

  • sayanything-453

    Same rules should apply to labor unions

  • sayanything-453

    Onslaught, read what I wrote.

  • sayanything-2804

    yes, yes you are.

  • sayanything-453

    I covered that issue in my reply to ndoldman.
    Same rules should apply to labor unions.

  • sayanything-453

    ndoldman, should the corporation then seek the permission of their employees, shareholders and customers before they spend on a political campaign? Or should it be what the board, the chairman, CEO etc deem to be right.
    What is for instance, the owners of a coal mine want coal miners to work for a $1.75 an hour and all safety regulations repealed? What if, what the coal mine owners want is not what their employees want, or vice versa?

  • sayanything-453

    Onslaught, a value should be placed on those concerns of yours.
    But to outright buy an election?

  • sayanything-453

    Ah, yes. Enlightened self interest.

    Yes! Correct. On the basic level that is what politics is about.
    And that is why you espouse your views. Not necessarily because they would benefit me.

    So, how exactly was your vote paid for, E?

    It was not. Complete disappointment with the spineless democrats.
    Was hoping on bipartisan hearings as to why we really went to war with Iraq, and was looking forward to see bipartisan hearing on what relay caused the market to collapse, and the guilty sent to prison.
    Instead what I got was the Democrats trying to and succeeding in enriching their corporate masters to the detriment of the people.

  • sayanything-2804

    Perhaps if you would have stayed in Greece instead of coming to a country you hate, working for rich people you loath, being a leach on society, and eventually polluting this part of the Earth with your worthless carcass, you wouldn’t be reduced to boring us with your pathetic sob story.

  • spartacus

    Let me fix that for you.

    All that happened is that the Supremes just made it easier for everyone buy influence, not just those the left approves of.

    Free speech would not exist if the responsibility of defending it were left solely to the left.

  • sayanything-453

    My doomsday scenario:

    a)The Trojan Condom Corporation, to spending one hundred million dollars ($100,000,000) to defeat Sarah Palin, if they so wish.

    b)Microsoft spending two billion dollars ($2,000,000,000) to elect a president and congress that outlaws all non Microsoft software.

    You keep on going on the right vs left.
    No distinction on my part.

  • sayanything-453

    Onslaught, do you repair your own computer(s)? Do you upgrade it your self?
    If you do, Newegg has a killer sale.
    For example:
    A Western Digital Caviar 640GB 7200 RPM 16MB Cache SATA 3.0Gb/s 3.5″ Internal Hard drive for $60.00 bucks with free shipping, by using the promotional code EMCYZNN25.

  • sayanything-2804

    you can of course point to the exact paragraph in this constitution of which you speak wherein it is written that freedom of speech can be denied on the basis of what some greekling says or thinks.

    furthermore I’m sure you can produce photostatic evidence of the letter, note, or random doodle from Thomas Jefferson that reads something like, and I’m paraphrasing here, “That corn farmers coalition is starting to get on my nerves, we’d better remember to put something in the afore mentioned constitution, that only you seem to know about, to let congress abridge the right of free speech of groups of people.”

    To quote a pathetiotic squirrel “Everyone has a voice, but some voices are less “equal” than others”

  • sayanything-453

    Here you go Just Russ:

    Newegg promo sale

    So you know, in spite of all the acrimony, name calling err.. descriptive terms used, I don’t necessarily follow the party line.

  • sayanything-453

    OK! Fair enough. I don’t watch Olberman, so I did not know that he said these things?
    We know he did model in the buff, so that one is correct.
    Let us examine the rest of the vile accusations and insidious name calling one by one.

    a) Does he support violence against women?
    I have found no evidence of that anywhere, nor did I expect to. Olberman is wrong.

    b)Is he homophobe?
    I have found no evidence of that anywhere, nor did I expect to.
    And if he wants to be afraid and/or dislike homosexuals that is his business.
    I say, so what.
    Olberman is wrong again.

    c)Is Scott Brown a racist? No evidence of racism on Scott Brown’s part.
    Olberman is wrong again.

    d) Is Scott Brown a reactionary? We all react to different things. Nothing to see here.
    Let’s move along. Olberman is wrong again.

    e) Is Scott Brown a bad joke? The voters didn’t think so….
    Olberman is wrong again.

    f)Does Scott Brown support violence against politicians?
    Absolutely not.
    Olberman is wrong again.

    g) Is he a teabagging supporter?
    Not really. I have not seen, nor found any evidence the Senator Scott Brown likes to lick balls.
    But on the other hand he supports tea party demonstrations. Nothing wrong with that.
    Olberman is wrong again.

    You see WHFF, this is what a civilized debater like me does.
    You resort to name calling for no reason whatsoever.
    Why?

  • sayanything-453

    I do know what reactionary is. I just played with the word.
    Have a good night.
    Before you go to bed smack your lips around my dick.

  • sayanything-2804

    Did you vote for Obama, knowing that the unions had an unfair advantage in buying influence?

    that there is what you might call a direct question base on facts in evidence.

  • sayanything-2804

    good point, what if a labor union wants to be exempt from paying the so called tax on Cadillac insurance plans?
    They just might engage in a closed door meeting with a corrupt politician where maybe valuable support or campaign contributions are exchanged for considerations denied to individuals.

    Is this a bad thing or just another case of ‘they are on my side, so there’s no problem’?

  • sayanything-256

    “And when Republicans behave the same way you are pleased to call it greed.” — Bat One
    Which party failed to rein in a $10 trillion housing bubble? Republican greed hurts nearly all Americans (clearly excluding banksters).

  • sayanything-81

    Clinton created the bubble and then Bush let it fellate the banks. Both bad.

  • sayanything-453

    You say you are retired, assume that means from work.

    That is what it exactly means. Retired from work. I am free as I want to be. No work for me.
    That is why I can sit in front of my computer all day long and blog, if I choose to do so.
    Month comes, month goes, rain or shine, I get paid.

  • sayanything-453

    ndoldman, if I ended up on WHFF’s dinner plate I have no problem with it.
    That what debate is about. He pits forth his ideas, I put forth mine and people make up their minds based on what their beliefs are.

  • sayanything-2804

    But don’t, so your solution is to keep the playing field unlevel for your own greedy, selfish, desires.

  • sayanything-453

    Should read: on what really caused the market to collapse

  • sayanything-453

    Yet you are perfectly fine with the abridgment of freedoms for one group of people and the blatant favoritism of Unions?

    Not what I am trying to convey, nor am I advocating such a thing, as I already have thrice stated: Same rules should apply to labor unions.

  • sayanything-453

    a)Not what I said.

    b)No precedent that I know of. Would it bother you if it happened in the near future?

  • sayanything-1317

    Why do we have a problem with free speech from corporations? I mean, obviously Michael Moore is more easily heard than you or I or even Rob. As are all celebrities. Do we kill their freedom of speech since they have bigger audiences than our own?

  • sayanything-4808

    Liberals are only comfortable with this because they have control of the only part of the only corporations that matter and would be exempt: the media corporations’ op-ed and news offices. As long as they have an ideological lock on the media, they are fine with everyone else’s free speech being limited.

    The supporters of the Republican Party spent massively during the last presidential election and if you went by the claims of that spending’s feared effectiveness, you would have had to expect a landslide for McCain. No one seriously believed he had a snowball’s chance between Roseanne Barr’s butt cheeks. The reason was obvious. The media engaged in what a recent book calls the “Swiftboating of George Bush” and for eight years was unrelentingly negative and antagonistic to him and everything he did, distorting and misrepresenting it every chance they could. They became effective mouthpieces of the DNC. They knew it and they knew it was why Obama was flying along as if he was written into reality by G-d out of nowhere without a past. The media allowed it and they had the control to do so.

    Yet the public discontent that they so arrogantly ignore, that they stroked for so long, is more powerful than any amount of money and we saw that in the recent MA election.

    Congratulations Democrats. The more you show your true colors, the more the nation despises you, and this is just one more thing for them to hate you for. Thank you for being so blinded by your delusions.

  • sayanything-2804

    Will you be OK with a union giving $60,000,000 during the 2008 presidential election to buy a president?
    Will you be OK when, to all outward appearances, that President appears to be bought?

    Or are you going to vocalize the “They do it too” meme?

    The playing field has been leveled, and you can’t stand that at all.

  • sayanything-2804

    So, the fact that the Unions threw huge wads of cash at Obama can be waived off as not being of any consequence, because you personally benefit from the results.

    Does not sound like you are in favor of a level playing field to me.

  • sayanything-2804

    Can you give me the year this happened? I don’t seem to recall the office Sarah was running for at the time Trojan condoms purchased that particular race.

    Can you give me that presidents name? I’ve been through all the ones on my American President poster and can’t seem to find the one you to which you are referring.

  • sayanything-2804

    Darn links:

    Here’s one for you,Say hi to your mom.

  • sayanything-453

    welder4 , what did Olberman call Brown that was so offensive?
    What names did he use?

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