Lest We Forget
Today has been set aside to remember a great man. A man who fought for equality, not because it was the politically correct thing to do but because it was the morally right thing to do. A man who embraced all races equally and envisioned a utopia where people could live and work together despite differences in color or culture.
Today is Martin Luther King day.
While the likes of Jesse Jackson bandy this great man’s name about like so many political poker chips, take time to look up what Dr. King actually had to say. Don’t let Al Sharpton speak for him, read it yourself:
I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: “We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal.” I have a dream that one day on the red hills of Georgia the sons of former slaves and the sons of former slaveowners will be able to sit down together at a table of brotherhood. I have a dream that one day even the state of Mississippi, a desert state, sweltering with the heat of injustice and oppression, will be transformed into an oasis of freedom and justice. I have a dream that my four children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character. I have a dream today.
I have a dream that one day the state of Alabama, whose governor’s lips are presently dripping with the words of interposition and nullification, will be transformed into a situation where little black boys and black girls will be able to join hands with little white boys and white girls and walk together as sisters and brothers. I have a dream today. I have a dream that one day every valley shall be exalted, every hill and mountain shall be made low, the rough places will be made plain, and the crooked places will be made straight, and the glory of the Lord shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together. This is our hope. This is the faith with which I return to the South. With this faith we will be able to hew out of the mountain of despair a stone of hope. With this faith we will be able to transform the jangling discords of our nation into a beautiful symphony of brotherhood. With this faith we will be able to work together, to pray together, to struggle together, to go to jail together, to stand up for freedom together, knowing that we will be free one day.
This will be the day when all of God’s children will be able to sing with a new meaning, “My country, ’tis of thee, sweet land of liberty, of thee I sing. Land where my fathers died, land of the pilgrim’s pride, from every mountainside, let freedom ring.” And if America is to be a great nation, this must become true. So let freedom ring from the prodigious hilltops of New Hampshire. Let freedom ring from the mighty mountains of New York. Let freedom ring from the heightening Alleghenies of Pennsylvania! Let freedom ring from the snowcapped Rockies of Colorado! Let freedom ring from the curvaceous peaks of California! But not only that; let freedom ring from Stone Mountain of Georgia! Let freedom ring from Lookout Mountain of Tennessee! Let freedom ring from every hill and every molehill of Mississippi. From every mountainside, let freedom ring.
When we let freedom ring, when we let it ring from every village and every hamlet, from every state and every city, we will be able to speed up that day when all of God’s children, black men and white men, Jews and Gentiles, Protestants and Catholics, will be able to join hands and sing in the words of the old Negro spiritual, “Free at last! free at last! thank God Almighty, we are free at last!”
Does this sound like the words of a man who would have supported affirmative action? Who would have encouraged the advancement of minorities through discrimination against whites?
Dr. King’s message and legacy has been seized by charlatans who have used his legacy for their own gain. We need to change that. When our government created Martin Luther King day we declared that Dr. King was not just an African-American, but an American.
Lets not forget that.
Other MLK day tributes from around the blogosphere:
The Moderate Voice
In Search Of Utopia (who lambasts me for daring to assert that MLK wouldn’t have supported affirmative action)
Oliver Willis
Scrappleface:
Analysis of the so-called ‘I Have a Dream’ speech shows that Dr. King was concerned primarily with freedom by means of equal rights and equal justice under the law for everyone.
Forensics experts have been unable to find a match for the King legacy among the words of any of the major American leaders who claim the King mantle.
“The King legacy is so easy to counterfeit and then pass off for personal gain,” said one expert. “It’s just a small cut to take Dr. King’s dream that people ‘will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character’, and to slice out the ‘character’ part and leave nothing but empty skin. Equality of opportunity gets falsely transformed into equality of results as a birthright.”
Michelle Malkin (with a good round-up)
Michael King
Blogs for Bush
Update:
Oliver Willis accuses me of trying to turn Dr. King into a right-wing icon. Honestly, I don’t see where I’m trying to do that at all. Personally, I’m of the opinion that Dr. King is above partisan politics. The ideals he believed in are universal truths. The different sides of the political spectrum may disagree on how to reach said truths, but we all, for the most part, believe those truths to be the goal.
Personally, I don’t believe Martin Luther King would have held any truck with the Jesse Jacksons or the Al Sharptons of today’s political scene. I also don’t believe he would have liked where affirmative action has brought us. I asserted as much in the post above. If that assertion makes me guilty of trying to turn MLK into a “right-wing icon” then so be it.
I’m just speaking the truth as I see it.
King would also have been against this deceptive war, the right’s rollback of human rights and its championing of the destruction of economic mobility. If he were alive today, right wing radio and its other tentacles would be blasting hiim as an operative of Al Qaeda. MLK was the ultimate liberal. Most of our heroes of this ilk are.
Nor am I surprised that your first reaction to a characterization I made of you is to accuse me of bad faith, David. I actually thought it was a pretty fair reading, and your response only confirms my initial presumption.
Your article citation doesn’t help much. The evidence the author offers that King would support modern-day affirmative action is extraordinarily thin; four stunted quotations is hardly the definitive comeback to Rob’s assertions. It looks like this writer just cherry-picked his own set of quotations to create his article (after creating a straw-man by saying that the other side had only one quote to work with.)
Suppose for a moment, though, that King really would have supported affirmative action; all that does is create a tension between that position and the “content of character” rhetoric that has garnered near-universal agreement. Then he’d have to face the same question modern-day proponents have to face: when is enough enough, and do the benefits outweigh the continuing use of judging by skin color (part and parcel of the original problem)?
Of course, that requires that we treat him as a man and a thinker instead of an icon we can use to slam opponents on OUR issues, which is exactly what you and Willis and Myers are doing. Besides, if we conservatives cannot “claim” him, why demand we respect him with a holiday? Is it really about honoring someone whose contributions toward harmony and unity are held up as a example for ALL Americans, or is it about you making the other side admit it’s wrong?
For my part, I DO honor Dr. King, not least of which for his appeal to God’s law over human law and his Biblical justification for the renunciation of hatred in nonviolent protests. And I will also contend his rhetoric of “content of character” is universal and applicable today and that his scattered quotations about affirmative action-like programs is tactical and tied to a world that has changed drastically in 40 years. And I will finally say that if you insist on being the arbiter of what can and can’t be said and accuse me of bad faith when I disagree, then you can go to blazes!
You precisely punctuate your position to intellectual obscurity! Congratulations!
Thankfully, with this post, you disenfranchise the few who may have considered you thoughtful and clear minded.
Oliver says, “The fact that you guys are so dismissive of the ‘twice as hard’ is so telling to me.”
Because it’s simply your little anecdote that can’t be proven. How convenient for you.
Even black kids with decent backgrounds get judged on their skin and not their ability with stunning regularity.
Dude. Look in the mirror. You support this kind of thinking and behavior.
You guys can’t seriously claim such things have no impact nor are they not continuing mindsets that are an extension of segregation and other racial ills.
Huh? I’ve never seen forced segregation here in America in my lifetime. Lived in five different states, many different cities, and different types of neighborhoods. People my age (25) are only using this an an excuse for their own shortcomings. This might be somewhat of an excuse for the older generations…but even then I’d have to say, “grow up and move the hell on.”
I don’t think affirmative action is perfect, but simply throwing out any sort of program that addresses the race disparity in this nation is tantamount to saying to black America: ‘We’re going to pretend like everything is all better now. We’re going to tell you to work hard, keep your nose to the grindstone, and in the long run — pass you over. Enjoy!’
No it’s not! It’s tantimont to saying “we’re going to judge you based on merit, talent, skill, hard work, personality, etc.; NOT your skin color.”
Why is that so hard for you to accept or believe?
Damn Oliver. You seem so pre-occupied with skin color. Notice that no other racial group in America (with the exception of “Hispanics”) gets special treatment. You think the Asians don’t get spit on and discriminated against? And lo and behold!; they are some of the wealthiest and most successful Americans. Hmm…wonder why. Maybe it’s because they aren’t crying, “I’m a victim, I deserve this”. Maybe, just maybe, it’s because they just go out there and do it instead of crying.
Learn to read, I am 45, and I dont give a rats ass about your race. I have read enough of your ignorant drivel, including this post, to know that you are not only racist, but stupid. As for how I got what I have? LOL. I would match it up against what you have any day kid. Read my bio on my blog, and hope that when you are 45 you have accomplished half as much, and I say that without knowing squat about you.
“You will note the number of conservative blogs that link me, and that have offered plaudits to ISOU.” = “Look Mom, People like me!!!! I’m POPULAR.”
Sheesh…
Eh, apparently you missed the above, which any black person who supports [sic] Afirmative Action would take as racist and as an insult.
Well, I might have meant this as an insult, but not a racist one… But the point is, why would you support affirmative action, unless you think that people are not capable of competing on their own merit? That’s just the opposite of racist. Affirmative action is RACIST.
On a lighter note:
“Affirmative action” = “Minorities can’t achieve on their own.”
“Infirmative Action” = “Guys can’t get it up on their own”
Striking similarities!!! They make a little blue pill for one… there’s no good fix for the other.
Eh, apparently you missed the above, which any black person who supports Afirmative Action would take as racist and as an insult. Whatever. Do me a favor Rob, if you dont want to hear things counter to your belief system, dont quote me or my blog, I think I have much more cred in the blogsphere for being open to oppossing points of view than you or Seth. You will note the number of conservative blogs that link me, and that have offered plaudits to ISOU. I dont have a problem with oppossing points of view. I have a problem with stupid, racist people who are too stupid to realize they are racist.
Let’s remember that our Vice-President didn’t even think Martin Luther King Day should be a holiday.
‘Nuff said.
I, for one, want to mention, for the record, that Rob is one hell of a stand up guy! You are able to hold a heated debate, with childish attacks on your character, without loosing your composure! This says something about who you are as a person, Rob! You have, deservedly so, earned my respect!
The fact that you guys are so dismissive of the “twice as hard” is so telling to me. Even black kids with decent backgrounds get judged on their skin and not their ability with stunning regularity. I see it with jobs I’ve applied for, since on the phone my voice would most likely be characterized as “white” then when they see me I can see the shock on their faces. I see it time and again when I’m the only black face in the IT department. I turn on TV and the faces are criminals, society’s underbelly. People like Mae Jamison and Robert Johnson are simply swept under the rug. You guys can’t seriously claim such things have no impact nor are they not continuing mindsets that are an extension of segregation and other racial ills.
I don’t think affirmative action is perfect, but simply throwing out any sort of program that addresses the race disparity in this nation is tantamount to saying to black America: “We’re going to pretend like everything is all better now. We’re going to tell you to work hard, keep your nose to the grindstone, and in the long run — pass you over. Enjoy!”
I was speaking to David, just in case there’s a question about it…
Oliver says, “I believe Dr. King would have been in favor of some form of AA because those who oppose it cling to the myth that all the racial problems have been solved when we’re still a far way from ‘The Dream’.”
Not true at all Oliver. I oppose “affirmative” action because I don’t see the sense in fighting racism with government mandated racism. Most of the other people I’ve talked to who agree with my assessment hold no illusions that racism has been solved. It will never be solved, and that’s not reason enough to support a government enforced racist policy.
See the difference?
And when do you think “the dream” will happen? Absolutely never if we go with your ideas of “affirmative” action. Think about it. I’m a young white guy, and I’ve seen black people get hand outs and hand ups all of my life, so can I use “affirmative” action to level the “playing field”? Using your logic, I should be able to claim racial damages.
With “affirmative” action, it’s a never ending cycle. So what are you solving?
Rob: Thanks for the tribute to MLK. I’m sorry that this degenerated into a squabble about “who’s hero he is.” Hopefully, I haven’t inadvertently fed any of the trolls with this comment.
Regarding affirmative action, it is a fact that not all schools are equal. At the small school I went to (in Indiana), the highest SAT score was around 1500. A friend of mind went to a school in NYC where NO ONE in his class scored under 1500. In my school, there was exactly one black family… so this isn’t just a racial issue.
There are plenty of poor whites in the Appalachians who have no more opportunity for college than inner city blacks. Don’t expect the pro-affirmative action people to extend any sort of quid pro quo for these people. Instead of that, expect crude, prejudice-laden insults and the like towards that “poor white trash”.
You twisted what I said to somehow be some level of support for Sharpton/Jackson. I believe Dr. King would have been in favor of some form of AA because those who oppose it cling to the myth that all the racial problems have been solved when we’re still a far way from “The Dream”.
Oliver says, “There you go again. Characterizing the view concessions afforded to some black Americans as so much handout candy is nonsense.”
To take but one example, you telling me that the University of Michigan giving students 20 automatic points on their admissions test isn’t a handout? Get real. Compare that to getting a perfect SAT score: 12 points. Perfect SAT score – 12 points, black skin – 20 points. Nope..no hand out there.
I’m not saying much of black America’s wounds aren’t self-inflicted (something I’ve been pilloried for from the left), but that the majority of it comes from a racist legacy that continues to this day.
This is nothing but an excuse.
I don’t believe that affirmative action is a solve-all, but its plainly clear that telling a black kid “”work harder” when he’s already had to be twice as good to be considered average is just laughable…
So your are assuming that he’s already had to be “twice as good”? Come on..that’s weak for an argument.
It isn’t government mandated racism, it is the government doing something to ensure the founder’s promise of all men being created equal.
No..it’s pretty plain that it’s government mandated racism. We just call racism “affirmative” action nowadays to sugarcoat what it really is.
There you go again. Characterizing the view concessions afforded to some black Americans as so much handout candy is nonsense.
I’m not blaming you guys personally, because I assume you just can’t see it coming where you’re coming from. It’s hard enough for people to move up in America, let alone if you are black (and other races as well, like latino). We live in a culture in which the popularized notion of black Americans is one of savage brutes, focused more on knocking over a store for malt liquor and “hoes” than the relatively positive images of whites that populate the media sphere. I’m not saying much of black America’s wounds aren’t self-inflicted (something I’ve been pilloried for from the left), but that the majority of it comes from a racist legacy that continues to this day. I had a relatively lower-middle class upbringing and I can see this as a black American, let alone a kid coming from the poorest situations.
I don’t believe that affirmative action is a solve-all, but its plainly clear that telling a black kid “work harder” when he’s already had to be twice as good to be considered average is just laughable, yet this is the world we inhabit. It isn’t government mandated racism, it is the government doing something to ensure the founder’s promise of all men being created equal.
Addendum, you said, “It isn’t government mandated racism, it is the government doing something to ensure the founder’s promise of all men being created equal.”
So in order to ensure the founder’s promise of all men being created equal you endorse treating people differently based solely on the color of their skin. O. K. Strange world view you have…
No need to continue this conversation, like most I get involved in over here, they simply get more and more assinine.
Think as you will. I obviously have not learned from my past dealings with you, and likely wont. I will delete your trackbacks from now on, they are not welcome on my site, any more than Trackbacks from David Duke would be welcome, comment as you will. As for the other idiot who just posted calling me a racist. Whatever.
David Anderson says, “No need to continue this conversation…”
See you later jackass.
Dr. King would be disgusted with Sharpton/Jackson, as I am. But you twist words to your own benefit, again.
What a fucking loser. You castigate me for calling names and then spew them yourself. This is real entertaining boys, but I have more to do than milk the cows and make sure the confederate flag in the back of the pickup is straight.
Peace….
David Anderson says, “I think I have much more cred in the blogsphere for being open to oppossing points of view than you or Seth.”
Except when you don’t understand your opponent’s position, instead of taking the time to understand it, you call names. Like a third grader.
I have a problem with stupid, racist people who are too stupid to realize they are racist.
Well you must have a serious problem with yourself then. I suggest you go into therapy to work on your self loathing.
Now buzz off.
David Anderson says, “What a fucking loser. You castigate me for calling names and then spew them yourself.”
You come on here calling people racist because they don’t agree with “affirmative” action? You deserve a name call right back at you for that behavior. Instead of taking the time to understand why we logically disagree with a policy that places skin color above merit you call names.
This is real entertaining boys, but I have more to do than milk the cows and make sure the confederate flag in the back of the pickup is straight.
Ahh yes. I can see where you would have “much more cred in the blogsphere for being open to oppossing points of view”. Haha. What a joke. Get lost like you said you were going to. Beat it on out of here and don’t let the screen door hit your ass on the way out.
David Anderson spits out, “Well Gee Seth, Now I am concerned that you see something as Racist, since I have no doubt that you are one of the most blatant racist in the blogsphere.”
Let me get this straight… Seth is racist according to you because he’s against “affirmative” action?!?? So it’s now racist to not take into account someone’s skin color?!?? Thanks for clearing that up David! Wow…I had it completely backwards.
Having said that, I could care less, the arguments presented here for making Dr. King some sort of conservative icon are as disingenuous as they are they are idiotic.
They are? You better present an argument that uses logic to support that statement. Good luck.
I have read enough of your ignorant drivel, including this post, to know that you are not only racist, but stupid.
How dare you claim those things about Seth. You don’t know the guy and you’re totally off base. I would say the exact same thing about you, however. You support racist policies and can’t see it. Therefore, YOU are the racist and stupid one. Too stupid to know that you support racist policies.
Read my bio on my blog, and hope that when you are 45 you have accomplished half as much, and I say that without knowing squat about you.
David Anderson: buzz off. You do nothing but cause anger with your stupidity laden posts. Go home.
Well Gee Seth, Now I am concerned that you see something as Racist, since I have no doubt that you are one of the most blatant racist in the blogsphere.
Having said that, I could care less, the arguments presented here for making Dr. King some sort of conservative icon are as disingenuous as they are they are idiotic.
Slarrow, despite our frequent arguments, I happen to respect you, so I am not going to argue with you your points. The quotes from King are irrelevant, what is relevant to this discussion is Operation Bread Basket, which my Father helped to start.
LOL! If you’re a 43 year old Black man who sees my comments as the most RACIST in the blogsphere, then you’ve either lived an extraordinarily sheltered life, or EVERYTHING is racist to you.
What really cracks me up is that I have NEVER disclosed my race to you… you don’t know if I am black, white, brown, pink, purple, yellow or orange… you make assumptions based upon *YOUR* hypersensitivity to the topic of race. You want to assume that your skin color makes a difference to me. You’re wrong. I don’t care what color skin yours is, you will get the same treatment from me… AND THAT IS THE POINT!!! Businesses and schools should not make accommodations for people based upon SKIN COLOR one way or the OTHER!
I want to live my life because of MY success! Not because someone took pity on me because my skin is colored. I guess you like the free meal just because you look like your ancient ancestry originated in Africa. How sad!
King said that? And you take it to mean that jobs and education should be offered to people based upon race?
If two people go to a business. One Black, the other White… regardless of their abilities, the Black person should get the job? Just because of his/her skin color? Because his/her GREAT, GREAT grandparents may have been slaves? Shouldn’t we offer the same opportunities to those whites whose lineage held slaves or indentured servants?
By giving the job opportunity to the Black based upon his/her skin color aren’t you simply saying that the Black person can not compete with the White person on merit? Aren’t you really saying that Blacks can’t achieve without help? … Blacks need a handicap, cause they just aren’t as good as Whites? … Because several generations have passed since Blacks were slaves, Blacks need assistance in getting anything?
This sounds pretty racist to me.
Oliver, When you said “…the right’s rollback of human rights and its championing of the destruction of economic mobility.” I started to wonder… what rights have been rolled back???? I can’t recall ever being stopped from doing anything that wasn’t illegal before 9/11. I have never been stopped trying to go anywhere… I have never been stopped from doing anything that doesn’t violate another person’s rights… What Exactly has been taken away from us? Before you get in a tizzy… I am DEAD serious… If there is a right that I’m now missing, I really WOULD like to know!
That’s right Don! Dr. King would have properly chastised these islamofacists for their subhuman acts of torture and brutality! I applaud you for point that out. Dr. King would have berated the beheadings, the attacks of 9/11, The Cole, and the rest! So good of you to notice!
King would certainly be against torture, indefinate incarceration, and for-profit warmongering.
Shame on you, Rob, shame on you…
Yeah, David’s post was disappointing: “He’s OUR icon, you can’t have him!” A shame.
For better or worse, Martin Luther King, Jr., is no longer a man but a legend. It may take another twenty years before he can be fairly evaluated on a historical basis instead of a political one.
Eh, I dont think I said any of that. But I am not surprised you would make that distortion Slarrow. However, if either of you are interested in knowing the truth, rather than trying to Hijack King’s legacy to make a political point that he would have repugnant. I would suggest your read this.
http://www.fair.org/extra/9505/king-affirmative-action.html
Since we’re talking about perspectives I went ahead and wrote a new post with a perspective on this issue a lot of you probably aren’t too familiar with.
You can read it right here.
Let’s remember that our Vice-President didn’t even think Martin Luther King Day should be a holiday.
Dick Cheney’s position on the MLK holiday implies…what exactly? That MLK would have supported affirmative action?
I’m not seeing your logic here.
Do me a favor Rob, if you dont want to hear things counter to your belief system, dont quote me or my blog, I think I have much more cred in the blogsphere for being open to oppossing points of view than you or Seth. You will note the number of conservative blogs that link me, and that have offered plaudits to ISOU. I dont have a problem with oppossing points of view. I have a problem with stupid, racist people who are too stupid to realize they are racist.
I have a problem with opposing points of view? Isn’t this your post complaining about me linking and disagreeing with you all the time? Aren’t you the one who came here today with arguments that amount to “Rob is an idiot and Seth is a racist?” And you’re telling me that I have a problem with opposing points of view?
Why don’t you go take a look in the mirror pal. You’re the one who’s angry here. You’re the one throwing around the insults. We could have discussed this topic on an even keel like topics are discussed here every day of the week. But you refuse to do that.
Like I pointed out before, you have a reasonably popular blog. When I disagree with something you write on your blog I’m going to reference it and link it. If you don’t like it, please ignore and delete the trackbacks or whatever. If you want to discuss it, feel free to come on over and do so. But don’t come here, call us names, and tell us we’re stupid just because we disagree with you. Its childish.
And if this is an indication of your “credibility” and fairness I’d hate to see what you’re like when you’re unfair.
Thank you for your response, Oliver. This hasn’t been the most civil of discussions to this point, but maybe we can pull a decent back-and-forth out of it.
the majority of it comes from a racist legacy that continues to this day.
I’d agree with that. In the context of history, slavery wasn’t really all that long ago. It takes time for a culture to pull itself out of something like that regardless of whether we’re talking about the people who were the slaves or the people who were the slave-owners.
And you’ve probably got a point that I can’t see it from where I’m coming from. My family history is one of Scandanavian immigrants settling in the midwest around the turn of the century. My ancestors didn’t have a dog in the slavery fight. We weren’t slaves or slave owners, so maybe that has something to do with my “Why can’t we just get past this” stance.
But I do have a couple of points to make:
I don’t believe that affirmative action is a solve-all, but its plainly clear that telling a black kid “”work harder” when he’s already had to be twice as good to be considered average is just laughable
But in instances where affirmative action comes into play the minority kid isn’t working twice as hard. The kid is being given a break because of the color of his/her skin.
And by supporting affirmative action, aren’t you sending these kids the wrong message by saying they’re entitled to something based on the color of their skin?
I agree with this statement:
With “”affirmative” action, it’s a never ending cycle.
That’s exactly right. It seems to me that by fixing inequality with more inequality we’re perpetuating a cycle that doesn’t do anyone any good.
I think we need to get rid of affirmative action while remembering that racism is still an important problem deserving of attention.
Dr. King would be disgusted with Sharpton/Jackson, as I am. But you twist words to your own benefit, again.
Ok then, lets discuss this. Lets hash it out because I am interested in understanding your stance on this.
What words did I twist around? Are you saying I twisted Dr. King’s words around to fit my purpose? And if so, why do you feel he would have supported affirmative action?
David, I’m sorry to see you’ve turned this conversation from a discussion about whether or not MLK would have supported affirmative action (a perfectly reasonable topic) to personal attacks and a need to compare your level of success to that of others.
If you had points to make about this I assume you would have made them by now. You started out with one, to which Slarrow responded, and then you launched an attack at Seth…choosing once again to call him a racist.
As somebody who once had a friendly relationship with you David, I cannot say how disappointed I am. You clearly cannot tolerate people having opinions which are different from your own. Nowhere, in any post or comment on Say Anything, have you ever been personally attacked by Seth or myself. Yet in the last two days you’ve called Seth a racist and me an idiot and a hypocrite. I challenge you to find any instance where Seth or I aimed the same level of vitriol at you.
The blogosphere is supposed to be about debate and discussion, and that is what happens here on this blog every day. These, I am sorry to say, do not seem to be things you are capable of.
If you disagree with my assertions then fine, but don’t degrade this conversation by turning it into personal attacks. Neither Seth nor myself have ever done that to you, I cannot see where it is asking too much for you to do the same.