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Thursday, October 05, 2006

Keystone Kops In Spokane

I get outraged whenever this kind of thing occurs:

Spokane County Sheriff Ozzie D. Knezovich apologized Tuesday for the blunder, which he said resulted when Detective Timothy D. Hines tried to nail whoever was responsible for obscene calls to at least 20 or women enrolled at Whitworth College.

Hines wrote down the wrong figures for a telephone number associated with the calls, so he obtained a search warrant for a house in Spokane, miles from the correct location in suburban Spokane Valley, Knezovich said.

Through a spokesman in the sheriff’s office Hines declined an interview request from the newspaper.

The irate homeowner told by The Spokesman-Review, which did not identify him at his request, that deputies dumped out drawers, went through his wallet and checkbook, seized computers, CDs, floppy disks, VHS tapes and other material and refused to clean up the mess in the raid Sept. 27.

Half a dozen sheriff’s vehicles converged on the house, and after taking photographs outside Hines told officers within hearing of the neighbors, “Now let’s go inside and get some porn,” the owner said.

“What would you do if somebody came to your door and ripped your whole house apart, turned everything upside down and said you are a porno freak?”

Among the confiscated items were copies of “The Lion King” and “Snow White,” found in a bedroom where the couple’s granddaughter stays when she comes to visit, the man said.

He said Hines argued with his wife of 37 years when she insisted the voice on recording of “that filthy stuff” in the obscene calls was not that of her husband.

He said he had hired a lawyer. He did not say whether he planned to sue but told the newspaper, “I’m not going to be treated like this and dragged around.”

Hines realized his mistake Monday when he checked the accuracy of the phone number with a telephone company, sheriff’s Capt. Bruce E. Mathews said. By then the target of the search — a 40-year-old man who used parts of his name to contrive aliases — was gone.

So the bad guy gets away while the cops tear apart the world of an innocent man.  Anyone can make a mistake but you’d think that the process of getting a warrent would involve some kind of double checks.

The homeowner has no recourse but to sue himself and his neighbors.  The responsible party get’s to shrugged his shoulders and say “Oh well.” I’d like to know what the judge that issued this warrent has to say.  It was his power that was abused.

Comments

Avatar for WOOF

The officer turned out to be the son of the police chief. The police turned out to have busted down the wrong door; their warrant was for the adjoining unit in the duplex where Maye lived. Maye is black; the officer and jury were white; and Maye, who seems to have been acting in self-defense, was nonetheless sentenced to death.

It Hapens All The time
WOOF on October 5, 2006 at 08:17 am

I am deeply troubled by the circumstances of that Maye case also.

I read that he’s at least off of death row for a bit.

I would consider it strict liability on the police forces that they get a warrent for the right house.


What’s going to happen to US industry when the global warming extremists like John McCain double the price of electricity?  I would think all these factories will close and set up in countries where they aren’t scared of technology.


The Whistler's signature
The Whistler on October 5, 2006 at 09:15 am

Compency is not a requirement for being a cop or a judge.  This cop probably will not even be suspended or fired.  Any other job and the guy’s ass is gone.

Justin B. on October 5, 2006 at 11:31 am

What is the point in being “outraged”? How silly…

This is a terrible mistake, one that did a lot of damage to a lot of people and the police should be held responsible for their actions… but they’ve admitted it and corrected themselves from the report you quoted.  What else is there to be “outraged” about?

Mistakes happen all the time, sometimes with disaterous effects… no one was abusing their power, doing anything obviously illegal or anything like that....

And Justin B., you’re simply an ass.


I think Rob hates me… I mean, just look at the pic he took of me!

Sphagnum on October 5, 2006 at 04:44 pm

And you’re in what profession sphagnum?


What’s going to happen to US industry when the global warming extremists like John McCain double the price of electricity?  I would think all these factories will close and set up in countries where they aren’t scared of technology.


The Whistler's signature
The Whistler on October 5, 2006 at 04:49 pm

Whoa.  I actually just graduated from Whitworth last May, so this one strikes a bit close to home.  And I’m really not sure how he would have been able to specifically target women.  Obviously all the phone numbers are fairly similar, but that would still be fairly tricky.  Also, in recent years, Whitworth switched it’s system around so that not even students had access to the student phone directory when connecting from off-campus.


"No Sane man will dance.”—Cicero

Daniel on October 5, 2006 at 06:58 pm
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Mistakes happen all the time, sometimes with disaterous effects… no one was abusing their power, doing anything obviously illegal or anything like that....

And Justin B., you’re simply an ass.

Actually, Spaghetti, I kind of think you’re being the ass.

This was outrageous.  Not only was this guy’s constitutional privacy protections violated through the cop’s mistake, the cop’s total lack of professionalism caused even further unnecessary embarrassment.

I know you’re trying to stand up for cops.  I understand that, but when a cop shows his ass this bad he should be criticized.  A knee-jerk defense of him just makes you look as bad as him.


When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

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Rob on October 5, 2006 at 07:07 pm

Listen dumbass, I like Cops and Judges as much as the next guy.  I like doctors too.  But let’s try this on for size:

I go in to see my Surgeon and instead of removing my right kidney that has cancer, he takes my left healthy one instead.  So because there are lots of good doctors out there, the son of a bitch shouldn’t pay for his mistake?  His insurance shouldn’t have to pay for my care and dialysis for the rest of my life?

I don’t know if you took or passed Government when in High School or College, but the Constitution does not grant me the right to good medical care.  I have read the Bill of Rights and there is not a damned thing about illegal search and removal of organs.  But there sure as hell is about Illegal Search and Seizure.

Now you can say, Ah, but he made a mistake and said I’m sorry.  That is not good enough.  He violated the Constitutional Rights of this man and his entire profession and the judges also take an oath to protect and serve us and keep us free from people trampling on our rights.  The rest of us in private jobs are held accountable.  Cops and Judges don’t get fired for this kind of mistake.  And they need to.  They both should resign or be terminated.  I don’t give a damn whether violating someone’s rights was intentional or not, their job requires competence to ensure that Citizens’ rights are respected and to perform the due dilligence to ensure that it happens.  And to my point about competence--the fact that the remain employed indicates exactly as I stated:

Competency is not a requirement for being a cop or a judge.  This cop probably will not even be suspended or fired.

Justin B. on October 5, 2006 at 07:32 pm

The taxpayers will ultimately pay for this cop’s mistake, even if he gets fired, which he should be, IMO.  He should be in debt for the rest of his life on this one.  It might give police a little more incentive to do proper investigation before they act, if they were financially responsible for their mistakes.


If you don’t know by now, don’t mess with it.

robert108 on October 5, 2006 at 07:37 pm
Avatar for HG

and Maye, who seems to have been acting in self-defense, was nonetheless sentenced to death.

Woof,

I hope bloggers go to the link and read that Maye has been removed from death row and his conviction is being reviewed.  If Maye is innocent and the side of the story you linked to is accurate then I hope people will come to his aid and buy him a competent defense.  I suspect there is another side to this story though.

HG on October 5, 2006 at 07:43 pm
Avatar for WOOF

The other sides
None of it good

WOOF on October 5, 2006 at 08:28 pm

Maye certainly should have had at least one holdout on the jury. 

We have military style commando raids occasionally where bounty hunters will storm a suspected dealer’s place and roll them.  These no knock warrants for the Drug War are no different than some armed military folks coming in and robbing you at gunpoint.

We have the right to defend ourselves in our own home.  If a cop kicks in the wrong door or does not ensure that the suspects know he is a cop, he gets what he gets.  As sad as that sounds, cops die in the line of duty.  Giving them no knock warrants to prevent the loss of life for cops has opened a whole new arena of fear for law abiding citizens that armed thugs, gangs, or rogue cops can bust in your door and rob you and it is up to you to identify the armed intruder before shooting that person.

My take, if you shoot someone who enters your own home, it should be considered self defense unless you are in the process of committing another crime.  If you are not actively dealing drugs, committing theft, murder, etc., and someone enters your home, you shoot first and sort it out later.  Cops should know this and it will change the way that they apprehend people.  We are not Afghanistan and these cops are not Task Force 145.  I am not Khalid Sheik Muhammed.  You can arrest me in daylight hours on the street, can knock first and announce yourself, or you better catch me in the act.  Otherwise, I should be allowed to defend my home first and ask questions later.

Justin B. on October 5, 2006 at 10:20 pm

Justin B.,

Your opinion is the opinion of the uninformed.

If that cop had a valid search warrant, reviewed and signed by a judge, then he has every right to enter the home, like it or not. Go ahead and “defend yourself”, John Wayne. The results are predictable.

That being said, the cop in this case who applied for that warrant didn’t investigate and double check his facts before doing so. He is very negligent and can and should have his ass sued off in civil court. And no, its not a criminal issue. Its a civil issue. Despite the fact that the cop made a bad mistake he was still operating in “good faith”. (An important phrase in law enforcement). His mistake, though egregious, was not deliberate or in bad faith. He screwed up. Sue him, hold him responsible, but don’t tar all of law enforcement with the same brush.


Election ‘08 - We Are So Screwed

Pilgrim on October 6, 2006 at 05:12 am

And by the way...that guy’s supervisor is equally at fault. All warrants should be reviewed by a supervisor before a judge lays eyes on it. The supervisor’s resposnsibilty is to check the facts of the warrant.

Somebody didn’t do what they were supposed to do. That’s how these mistakes happen.


Election ‘08 - We Are So Screwed

Pilgrim on October 6, 2006 at 05:15 am

Pilgrim; it’s the actions of these cops that tar all law enforcement.  The only way to get law enforcement to take this seriously is to seriously shame them when they mess up.  Sorry but what else is there for a citizen to do?

There are three responsible parties here:  one is the cop that made the mistake.

The second is whoever in the police department administration that didn’t set up some kind of double check.

The third is the judge who didn’t ask the question of “are you sure”.

I hold public employees to a higher standard.

One question though; in cases like this is the police officer liable or does any law suit get picked up by the taxpayer (through insurance?)?  If the cop get’s off with maybe a letter in their file what’s the incentive not to screw up?

We all know the judges have the system set up where they’re never responsible for any consequences. Why should they care if they screw up?

Even if the cop had got the number right, they had no business saying “let’s go get some porn” in public.  The person is innocent until proven guilty.  That’s a breach of good judgement.

Serving warrents can be a matter of life and death.  Innocent people have been shot by the cops.  Cops have been shot by homeowners.  (although this doesn’t appear to be a violent service in this case.)

They should take it seriously.


What’s going to happen to US industry when the global warming extremists like John McCain double the price of electricity?  I would think all these factories will close and set up in countries where they aren’t scared of technology.


The Whistler's signature
The Whistler on October 6, 2006 at 05:21 am

Whistler,

In answer to your question: This is where the “good faith” part comes in. If the officer was acting in good faith and an honest mistake was made (even one as stupid as this) then the city or county or whatever his parent agency is will be held largely responsible in a lawsuit. 

If deliberate indifference, deliberate negligence, or bad faith can be shown, then his agency will probably throw him to the wolves, and rightly so.

Note this, though: thousands of search wrrants are served every day without this kind of mistake. Law enforcement are well aware of the consquenses if all due care isn’t taken. We don’t need to “shamed” into understanding the gravity of our jobs.


Election ‘08 - We Are So Screwed

Pilgrim on October 6, 2006 at 05:38 am

Another by the way....

Any judge presented with a warrant does say, “are you sure?” The warrant is basically a sworn affidavit by the officer and he raises his right hand and swears that it is correct before the judge signs it.

The judge is immune from lawsuit.


Election ‘08 - We Are So Screwed

Pilgrim on October 6, 2006 at 05:44 am

Any judge presented with a warrant does say, “are you sure?” The warrant is basically a sworn affidavit by the officer and he raises his right hand and swears that it is correct before the judge signs it.

I’ve written down phone numbers incorrectly but I’ve never sworn to my mistake.

I have a hard time believing that you can answer in good faith “yes I am sure” unless you have double checked.  I’d want to double check and have someone double check me before I swore out a warrant.

Law enforcement are well aware of the consquenses if all due care isn’t taken.

Apparently not in this case.  And the Spokane County Sheriff’s department is not some kind of hick office at least it shouldn’t be.

We don’t need to “shamed” into understanding the gravity of our jobs.

Maybe not in your agency, but this incident puts a lie to that as a generalization doesn’t it?


What’s going to happen to US industry when the global warming extremists like John McCain double the price of electricity?  I would think all these factories will close and set up in countries where they aren’t scared of technology.


The Whistler's signature
The Whistler on October 6, 2006 at 05:59 am

Like it or not, mistakes happen. And they happen in all professions, Doctor, Lawyer, and Indian Chief. Nobody swears to a mistake, Whistler. When that guy swore he thought he was right. Like I said, mistakes happen to everyone. Sue the guy. He deserves it. It was a dumbass, bonehead thing to do. But put it in context.


Election ‘08 - We Are So Screwed

Pilgrim on October 6, 2006 at 06:13 am

When private people make a mistake they pay for it themselves.  In this case the homeowner if he sues will be sueing himself and his neighbors.

The responsible party unless he’s disciplined severely has no reason to be upset about it.

Judging by your “oh well, what the hell” attitude I doubt the guy will get more than a slap on the wrist.


What’s going to happen to US industry when the global warming extremists like John McCain double the price of electricity?  I would think all these factories will close and set up in countries where they aren’t scared of technology.


The Whistler's signature
The Whistler on October 6, 2006 at 06:32 am

In your profession, if you make a mistake do you get sued or does the company you work for get sued? If your mechanic forgets to tighten your oil filter and your engine burns up, do you sue him personally or do you hold the company responsible?

A slap on the wrist? At the very least he’ll be formally reprimanded (not a light matter in the law enforcement world), possibly demoted (which will cost him money) or suspended (which will cost him more money). I don’t have a “what the hell” attitude, but I don’t think the guy should be tarred and feathered and pissed on, either.

Just what do you think should happen? Should he lose his job? Should he be made to stand on a corner with an “I’m a dumbass” sign on? Tell me, just what would satisfy your sense of outrage?


Election ‘08 - We Are So Screwed

Pilgrim on October 6, 2006 at 07:03 am

Pilgrim,

I was talking specifically about no-knock warrants.  When someone breaks into your home, do you wait and see who is going to rob you at gunpoint?

We have the Second Amendment precisely for this reason.  I am not John Wayne, but rather a proponent of the right to bear arms.  That right is not to protect us from intruders and criminals, but to protect us from Tyrants and Government.  Ever study American History?  Read the Bill of Rights?

Some asshole cop breaking into my home in the middle of the night with a no-knock warrant because of the drug war is about as close to tyrany as there is. 

If believing in the Bill of Rights and the Second Amendment and that the Drug War allows flat out Tyrany makes me John Wayne, then so be it.  I think it makes me more John Locke than John Wayne.  Or more Jeffersonian.  But since you are throwing names around, perhaps you can enlighten me on why the Constitution is being ignored to fight the “Drug War”?  It is getting Police Killed and until the average citizen that is the victim of their mistakes is allowed to defend himself from the government and police and the government start paying the price for their misguided drug war and for their attempts to invade our homes to find a single marijuana roach, they will not rethink the policy.

Justin B. on October 6, 2006 at 07:40 am

Justin,

If you’ve read my posts in the past you’ll see that I’m not a fan of the “War on Drugs” or a fan of government intrusion in our lives. (See my post in reader’s blogs “With Folded Hands Redux).

The war on drugs, as it is so dramatically labeled, is a complete and utter failure on so many levels. Our justice system and prisons are clogged like Ted Kennedy’s arteries
because of it. There are people out there with criminal records because of having marijuana. Totally ridiculous.

That being said, don’t presume to lecture me about the Bill of Rights or American history. I’ll match intellects with you any time.

One more thing...it isn’t the police’s war on drugs. Its the politician’s. Your bluster about the police “paying the price” if they come into your home in the night is just that - bluster. I’ve seen the same thing a thousand times. When that warrant is served and that door is kicked and you hear “POLICE! SEARCH WARRANT!” you’re more likely to crap your pants and dive under the bed than grab a gun and go down in a hail of bullets, hero.

Trust me, scooter, I’ve seen it over and over again.


Election ‘08 - We Are So Screwed

Pilgrim on October 6, 2006 at 08:01 am

Pilgrim,

Did you read WOOF’s link to the Maye? 

I am not a proponent of the ACLU in the slightest.  Protecting us from terrorists during a war that they declared against us is certainly different than this “War on Drugs”. 

Part of the problem that I have is that our government has declared Wars on Drugs and Terror.  And I cannot even remotely equate the two.  While the Democrat’s strategy is to surrender to War on Terror, I ask simply, why have we not reconsidered this “Drug War” of ours.

The Drug War is unwinnable.  The Drug War is a quagmire.  The laws enacted to fight the Drug War are 1000% worse than the Patriot Act.  And the Drug War is not actively seeking to crash planes into innocent people minding their own business.  The Drug War is destroying “dreams” by allowing people to make bad choices, but if that is the standard we apply, hell, McDonalds is doing the same thing.  Picking up the needle is no different than picking up a Double Quarter Pounder with Cheese. 

The Drug War has created this culture of no-knock warrants and of judges that sign warrants without looking at them first.  Police get an even bigger ego trip because they can bust down some perp’s door without knocking and drag the guy off for having a roach in his ashtray.

Read the Maye case.  And tell me that this is not tyrany by Law Enforcement.  Then read this case and tell me that the Police State has not gotten out of hand.

Pilgrim sees this as a case of a cop making an honest mistake.  I see it as a case of a government that does not respect the life and the liberties of their citizens.  Look at Ruby Ridge and Waco.  Look at the Drug War.  Look at the way Police make these honest mistakes and are not held accountable.  This is not an isolated occurance.  Police are drunk with their own power.

Justin B. on October 6, 2006 at 08:09 am

One more thing...it isn’t the police’s war on drugs. Its the politician’s. Your bluster about the police “paying the price” if they come into your home in the night is just that - bluster. I’ve seen the same thing a thousand times. When that warrant is served and that door is kicked and you hear “POLICE! SEARCH WARRANT!” you’re more likely to crap your pants and dive under the bed than grab a gun and go down in a hail of bullets, hero.

Read the Maye case.  I don’t shoot first and ask questions later.  I own one gun, a .22 rifle, not exactly self defense material.

What I don’t like seeing is a culture where our society convicts guys like Maye.

Being a proponent of the right to bear arms means that I defend the rights of others to own them too.  Are you trying to call me a Chickenhawk because I support Maye, but have not shot any cops myself?

This is not some ego trip of me being a tough guy.  Maybe you mistaked it as such, but I am far from that.  This is a case of me believing that Police are abusing their power.

One more thing...it isn’t the police’s war on drugs. Its the politician’s.

Is it ever the police that declare war on their own citizens?  The Police and military answer to the executive branch of government unless they actually become that branch via coup (Musharrif, Thailand).  Politicians are not being shot in Iraq.  Soldiers are.  Politicians don’t get shot invading someone’s home serving a no-knock warrant and neither do judges.  That is why they don’t give a damn about the situation that it puts their citizens and their law enforcement in.  You start having people shot in the line of duty because of the incompetence of politicians, and their policies change. 

You think I want Cops killed?  Who in their right mind does?  I want the ones at Ruby Ridge, Waco, in the Maye case, and in this case to actually pay for their deeds.  But they never do.  And it is only when we as a public become so outraged that we either vote the bums out of office or get like Jefferson and others did--pissed enough to fight our own government--that tyrany ends. 

But as the messenger and enforcer of the policies of the politicians, your job duty requires you to accept the consequences of their failed policies.  You are not some poor unlucky pawn in the drug war.  The police unions support the war on drugs because it means more cops and more money for union dues.  If we shut down the war on drugs, this huge stream of money would go away too.

Justin B. on October 6, 2006 at 08:19 am

if you make a mistake do you get sued or does the company you work for get sued? If your mechanic forgets to tighten your oil filter and your engine burns up, do you sue him personally or do you hold the company responsible?

In my profession I’m compensated by the profits made by the business I work for.  In effect I’m sued.

In this case the taxpayer is forced to sue himself (and his neighbors) for the “mistake” that the law enforcement officer made.

Meanwhile the person who made the “mistake” get’s to shrug it off.

Maybe they know they’ll never get a promotion (and don’t care).  What consequence did they suffer then.

This mistake doesn’t happen without a lackadasical attitude towards the truth and a lack of respect for the public.

You say you don’t have a “what the hell attitude.” Good! I think the most important thing when this happens is the rest of the law enforcement professions takes it seriously.


What’s going to happen to US industry when the global warming extremists like John McCain double the price of electricity?  I would think all these factories will close and set up in countries where they aren’t scared of technology.


The Whistler's signature
The Whistler on October 6, 2006 at 08:21 am

This guy should lose his job, and be open to civil suit.  And every other cop that sees him have to file Bankruptcy to protect his house will double check their phone numbers and warrants next time.

Maye should be set free, which will infuriate the officer that he shot’s family.  And probably the entire police force.  But it is what should happen.  And then their should be a political debate over the rights of a homeowner to use deadly force in their homes.  That debate will occur in the legislature at the state level and they will clarify their law.  And those laws will come under press scrutiny and be lobbied by the ACLU and others.  And during that debate we can talk about the Maye and the officer that was shot and decide as a society what makes sense.

The problem is that without these kind of cases, the average citizen does not pay attention.  But these things do happen all the time.  I sided with Maye and the victim in this case and am disappointed that our country is not engaged actively in this debate.

I support the War on Terror and the Patriot Act.  I wish that the protests and the outrage that all the idiot lefties are showing over the War in Iraq, was instead directed at the quagmire that is the Drug War.  And was directed internally at our own government policies that are misguided and wasteful.

Justin B. on October 6, 2006 at 08:26 am

I just read the Maye link. If everything there is right, then this is a travesty. You have the right to resist an unlawful arrest and, yes Justin, the right to protect your home. This guy, if all those facts are correct, needs to go home. But your paranoia about a “police state” is a bit extreme.

Let me explain about a no knock warrant. The earlier rules stated that police had to knock and announce themselves, then wait a set period of time (a few seconds) before making entry. That gave the target of the warrant time to dispose of evidence (flushing works, and doesn’t take long) or arm themselves. Or, in some cases, take a hostage. Not all warrants meet no knock criteria. High risk warrants do. The reviewing judge decides if the parameters for a no knock are met.

Police`are human and mistakes are sometimes made. Unfortunately, mistakes in law enforcement impact people’s lives in a huge way. And, by the way, when is a policeman not held accountable? You watch too much TV.


Election ‘08 - We Are So Screwed

Pilgrim on October 6, 2006 at 08:32 am

Whistler,

Lawsuits don’t come out of a department’s budget. All agencies are insured, either independently or as part of their city or county, and part of that insurance is lawsuit coverage. So, no, the taxpayer isn’t “suing himself.”

And, Justin...if the facts are right in that Maye case I don’t give a fat rat’s ass who it infuriates. He should go home.

Guys, I support no-knock warrants, however. Get shot at once and you would, too. Changes your point of view, you know.


Election ‘08 - We Are So Screwed

Pilgrim on October 6, 2006 at 08:42 am

One more thing....some perspective.

Right now, today, across this country tens of thousands of traffic tickets are being written, thousands of summons are being issued, and thousands of arrests are being made for everything from shoplifing to murder. And, guess what? In all of those thousands of law enforcement actions - with very few exceptions - nobody’s rights are being violated.

Police`are not “drunk with their own power”, Justin. For the most part they are doing their jobs to the best of their ability. Are there exceptions? Sure. I’m sure there are dick heads in your line of work, too.

My favorite quote:

“We sleep safe in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence upon those who would do us harm.” - George Orwell


Election ‘08 - We Are So Screwed

Pilgrim on October 6, 2006 at 08:53 am

Pilgrim, if the city gets sued their insurance rates go up.  You’re suing yourself and your neighbors (Maybe you’re expanding what constitutes a neighbor if the risk is shared among other communities.)

I still don’t see where that’s an deterrent to the police department or individual police officer.

I would agree that there is a place for no-knock warrants.  However it appears they are being used too frequently.  (Not that they have anything to do with this case as far as I know.)


What’s going to happen to US industry when the global warming extremists like John McCain double the price of electricity?  I would think all these factories will close and set up in countries where they aren’t scared of technology.


The Whistler's signature
The Whistler on October 6, 2006 at 08:58 am

TW: Ultimately, the taxpayers pay for everything; even for the police officer in question…


If you don’t know by now, don’t mess with it.

robert108 on October 6, 2006 at 09:06 am

Cities and counties are sued all the time, and not just because of law enforcement. Government entities have deep pockets (and good insurance). So...people sue for eveything from slip and falls to potholes. Law enforcement lawsuits are actually a small percentage of suits against cities or counties.


Election ‘08 - We Are So Screwed

Pilgrim on October 6, 2006 at 09:07 am

By the way Pilgrim, I believe in giving the police the benefit of the doubt in reaction-type situations. 

It’s when they have a chance to reflect (such as this case) that they ought to be held to a very high standard.


What’s going to happen to US industry when the global warming extremists like John McCain double the price of electricity?  I would think all these factories will close and set up in countries where they aren’t scared of technology.


The Whistler's signature
The Whistler on October 6, 2006 at 09:07 am

Law enforcement lawsuits are actually a small percentage of suits against cities or counties.

Doesn’t make it ok.


What’s going to happen to US industry when the global warming extremists like John McCain double the price of electricity?  I would think all these factories will close and set up in countries where they aren’t scared of technology.


The Whistler's signature
The Whistler on October 6, 2006 at 09:11 am

There is a place for everything.  No Knock Warrants.  Wire Tapping.  Etc.

By drunk with their own power, I mean that their actions are rarely given the scrutiny they deserve.  I mean they are cops and the people they are serving warrants on are bad guys.

Maye is a cop killer.  He is the ultimate bad guy.  No one is worse than a cop killer.  And that is the reality.

Look no further than Richard Jewel.  Remember him?  Atlanta Olympics bombing suspect.  He killed those people and planted the bomb.  At least that is what the Police leaked.  Then it turns out he was totally innocent, but his reputation was destroyed.  Or look at the New York Prosecutors office leaking wiretap information from Kerrick’s wiretapped conversation with a political candidate for Attorney General (I believe) in New York this year about her husband’s adultery.  Or perhaps the leaks about to doctor in the Anthrax case.

I see a role and a time for police to protect us.  But the combination of overzealous police and prosecutors is just insane.  The leaks in Atlanta, Ruby Ridge, Waco, the leaks in the Anthrax case, the political leaks where she simply had the misfortune of being friends with someone being investigaged…

Who again is being held responsible for these things?  Who was fired?  How many heads rolled?  How many cops and presecutors themselves were prosecuted?

They are above the law because they are the law.  And even when they do screw up, their department has insurance to cover it.  So maybe they get a lecture, but rarely do they lose their jobs.

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/0920cr-copfired20-ON.html

A Chandler police officer has been fired after he pulled over a woman under the guise of a traffic stop but instead asked her out on a date.

Following an internal investigation, Officer Nathan Dixon, 37, was dismissed in late August - the second Chandler officer to be fired this year.

The woman called the Professional Standards Section of the Chandler Police Department on July 12 and told them she was pulled over on July 8 at 2:15 a.m. by an officer in a marked patrol car who asked her out on a date, according to a dismissal letter to Dixon from Chandler police Chief Sherry Kiyler.

This guy was fired, but had the victim not come forward, he would still be patrolling in Phoenix.

http://www.eastvalleytribune.com/index.php?sty=24849

One week ago today, a jury acquitted Lovelace of seconddegree murder, manslaughter and endangerment.

Nelson fled in her car suddenly as Lovelace questioned her about a fake prescription she was trying to fill at a Walgreens drive-through at Dobson and Warner roads.

Lovelace testified at Maricopa County Superior Court in Mesa that he feared for his life as he saw Nelson’s leftfront tire turning toward him, so he fired one shot from his 9 mm semiautomatic handgun. Prosecutors said the shooting was unjustified because three witnesses testified he chased Nelson before firing and the bullet traveled from back to front.

These are just recent incidents in the Tempe/Phoenix/Chandler area.  There are so many more of dumbass officers not calling off high speed chases and pursuing people and causing deaths.

Justin B. on October 6, 2006 at 09:13 am

Oh, good...let’s not blame the person who is running from the officer in violation of the law. Let’s blame the officer. Good thinkin’, there, Justin.


Election ‘08 - We Are So Screwed

Pilgrim on October 6, 2006 at 12:14 pm

http://www.eastvalleytribune.com/index.php?sty=34948

It marks where Brad Downing, 19, was killed five years ago in a police pursuit gone bad. The driver of a stolen pickup led Chandler officer Dan Lovelace on a high-speed pursuit, and the truck ran a red light and slammed into the Chandler college student.

The same Dan Lovelace.

Pilgrim, this happened in 2000.  And the guy was on the force in 2004 when he killed a woman by shooting her from behind as she drove away. 

So blame the officer right?  You wanna defend him?  You wanna explain how an officer that overzealously chases folks and kills a woman driving away and kills another teen by chasing a simple stolen vehicle case into a major accident belongs on the force?

http://arizona.indymedia.org/news/2002/10/4228.php

New evidence has come to light of problems with the Chandler police officer, Dan Lovelace, who shot Ms. Lovelace. A FOIA request by local media has resulted in Officer Lovelace’s personnel file being obtained, and it turns out that Officer Lovelace had only months before failed the tests for appropriate use of force and in how to handle verbal confrontations. His records also note that he is impatient and aggressive. A self-evaluation by Officer Lovelace suggests that he should work on being more patient. Somehow I think Dawn Rae Nelson would agree. If she wasn’t dead, of course.

In light of the public attention regarding Officer Lovelace, Chandler police officials state that they are initiating two investigations: A homicide investigation to find out whether Officer Lovelace broke the law by shooting Dawn Rae Nelson in the side through her open driver’s side window, and an internal investigation as to whether they should fire him.

However, sources say that these investigations are likely to be a whitewash. Sources say that these investigations are likely to be similar to the ones made when Officer Lovelace killed Brad Downing, an ASU student killed because Officer Lovelace broke Chandler police policy regarding hot pursuit. The official reports from the Chandler police exonerated Officer Lovelace, but evidence came out in court that the official reports were a total and complete whitewash that ignored evidence and distorted evidence in order to try to exonerate Officer Lovelace and the City of Chandler from responsibility in that issue. The City of Chandler settled out of court because a jury would have concluded that Officer Lovelace was guilty, and may have awarded the mother much more money than what she was awarded as part of the settlement.

Where you at Pilgrim.  Good thinkin’ there Pilgrim.

Justin B. on October 6, 2006 at 02:46 pm

Two people are dead from an officer that:

the tests for appropriate use of force and in how to handle verbal confrontations. His records also note that he is impatient and aggressive. A self-evaluation by Officer Lovelace suggests that he should work on being more patient.

I want to hear you defend this guy.  You know what, he didn’t spend any time in Jail for killing two people.  This is your “good faith” argument.  The Chandler PD had two huge lawsuits that their insurance paid.

What I want to hear is whether his supervisors were reprimanded… nope.  He was hung out to dry and not a damned person on the force above him was fired.  He did not have to pay out of pocket for the killings of these two people because he was reckless.  The Chandler PD and their insurance and taxpayers did.

But he is a good cop right?

You gonna insult me some more there Pilgrim?

Justin B. on October 6, 2006 at 02:51 pm
Avatar for Andrew

if you make a mistake do you get sued or does the company you work for get sued? If your mechanic forgets to tighten your oil filter and your engine burns up, do you sue him personally or do you hold the company responsible?

Actually both. I get sued, the hospital gets sued, and any other parties that can get sued will be sued. Sure we all have insurance, but we pay for it and our rates go up meaning we pay more money.

Not only that, if negligence or any misconduct is involved, we have our names formally printed in a monthly newsletter that says why we are being reprimanded. Plus there’s the strong possibilities of being suspended or fired by our employers and the state board can revoke or suspend (up to 7 years!) our licenses.

And you know what this has created....less negligence! For example, each and every time I give a patient medication I must check the order, the route, the dosage (this includes calculating appropriate dosages in case the doctor made a mistake). Then when I go to administer the med I have to twice check the patient’s name band and ask them at least two identifying questions (Name, DOB, SS#, or medical record #). This is done every time, even if I just did it for another med an hour before.

I think anytime you are in a profession that deals with people’s lives (this includes police), you should be held to much higher standards and be subject to greater scrutiny.

Andrew on October 7, 2006 at 04:40 am

Your own article says it...he violated his departmental policy. And when you do that you bet your ass your department will “hang you out to dry”. Further, if this department failed to follow their own standards by not getting rid of this guy if he was a problem officer, then they are well into what is called “negligent retention”.

Let’s get something straight. I’m not defending misconduct or negligence or stupidity in any way. I’m merely pointing out that there are two sides to every argument. You seem to think that the simple accusation is enough to end a cop’s career. I’m telling you that the public perception and the reality of law enforcement are two different things.

And, as far as “insulting you” goes....you’re doing a fine job of that yourself with you hysterics andd obvious hostility to a profession you don’t know anything about other than what you read. You don’t need my help.

I’m excusing myself from this thread now. This is going nowhere. You’ve made up your mind.

Have a nice day.


Election ‘08 - We Are So Screwed

Pilgrim on October 7, 2006 at 05:46 am

And you’re in what profession sphagnum?

I pick up dirty laundry for a living, no I’m not a cop.

I know you’re trying to stand up for cops.  I understand that, but when a cop shows his ass this bad he should be criticized.  A knee-jerk defense of him just makes you look as bad as him.

I’m not trying to stand up for the guy, I’m not trying to stand up for anyone.  I’m saying it’s nothing to be “outraged” over.  It’s a mistake.  One that has been corrected, from what the story said, and one that will probably result in the victim getting repaid lots of money and the officers involved getting into a whole heap of trouble.

If the department was standing by what happened and not taking corrective action, THAT would be something to get upset over.  That would be an obvious abuse of police powers and I would love to see heads roll over it.  But this mistake has already been taken care of and apologies made.

Listen dumbass, I like Cops and Judges as much as the next guy.  I like doctors too.  But let’s try this on for size:

Your position that being a judge or a cop requires no “compency” (which I assume you mean Competency ) is absurd and an insult to those who wear the robe and the badge.  Both professions require more integrity and competency than most professions out there.  That doesn’t mean that there are no bad cops of judges, because there are lots of bad people out there, but it is no reason to smear either profession.


I think Rob hates me… I mean, just look at the pic he took of me!

Sphagnum on October 7, 2006 at 08:43 am

I pick up dirty laundry for a living, no I’m not a cop.

But didn’t you write this post. (I know if says Rob did, but many posts were assigned to him when he did the latest greatest upgrade.) The reason why I think that is relevent is the way you (?) ended it.

(Full disclosure: I’m currently in the process of being hired by the CHP)


What’s going to happen to US industry when the global warming extremists like John McCain double the price of electricity?  I would think all these factories will close and set up in countries where they aren’t scared of technology.


The Whistler's signature
The Whistler on October 7, 2006 at 09:13 am

I’m merely pointing out that there are two sides to every argument. You seem to think that the simple accusation is enough to end a cop’s career. I’m telling you that the public perception and the reality of law enforcement are two different things.

Yeah, I have been long on simple accusations by backing up every single thing I have said with multiple linked major media stories about individual incidents that all have common themes of absolute police incompetence in both training, retention, and conduct. 

In the Lovelace case, we have two dead civilians.  In the Maye case, we have a dead cop and a guy defending his home who is on death row.  And in this case we have a guy who was subjected to this after the cop screwed up by writing down a wrong number:

The irate homeowner told by The Spokesman-Review, which did not identify him at his request, that deputies dumped out drawers, went through his wallet and checkbook, seized computers, CDs, floppy disks, VHS tapes and other material and refused to clean up the mess in the raid Sept. 27.

Half a dozen sheriff’s vehicles converged on the house, and after taking photographs outside Hines told officers within hearing of the neighbors, “Now let’s go inside and get some porn,” the owner said.

“What would you do if somebody came to your door and ripped your whole house apart, turned everything upside down and said you are a porno freak?”

I understand why you would run Pilgrim.  You talked shit about me several times calling me John Wayne and saying look at the other side, look at the other side.  Then when you see what happened you run off like a little coward.  I looked at both sides.  How about you say, “You know Justin, you might be onto something about a total lack of accountability in this profession.”

Hey Andrew, what happens when you accidentally kill two people like Officer Lovelace did?  How about just killing one person because you failed to follow proper proceedures?  Chandler PD would keep you on the job until you kill someone else by shooting a mother of three in the back as she drove away from you.  Does the hospital and their malpractice insurance and the state board of nursing give you second chances like Officer Lovelace got? 

The state Nursing Boards are independant, not run by the same police department.

Justin B. on October 7, 2006 at 03:56 pm

But didn’t you write this post.

I did, and I was… not anymore.


I think Rob hates me… I mean, just look at the pic he took of me!

Sphagnum on October 7, 2006 at 09:16 pm
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