Jesus Camp
Apparently this is going on in Devils Lake North Dakota, though this is the first I’ve heard of it.
More information about the film available here. The name of the camp is “Kids on Fire” and its run by Becky Fischer. The camp is held in Devils Lake, but Becky herself apparently lives in Bismarck and is the director of Kids in Ministry, among other things.
I am, for an atheist, an ardent defender of religion. I don’t believe in god and feel that most religion is simply made up mythology premised upon explaining the unexplainable and teaching a certain moral code. For the most part I think religion has a positive role in the world, but extremism in religion is dangerous.
If the footage in this clip is any indication, I think what Becky Fischer is doing to these children at her camp is dangerous as well. I mean, she actually says that she wants the kids in her camp to lay down their lives for their religion like they do in Pakistan and Palestine. I needn’t remind you that the religious zealots who hail from Pakistan and Palestine are prone to laying down their lives for their religion through suicide bombings.
Maybe I’ve got it all wrong on what Fischer is teaching, but all the talk of “warriors” and laying down lives for religion makes me uncomfortable.
This camp is disturbing, to say the least, and Fischer seems totally unapologetic about it. She’s even actively promoting this movie about her camp, as you can see on her website. Tags: Religion
Geez, Free… are you smoking something? You are simpley batty!
David Koresh was murdered by Clinton, along with his followers. Some threat.
Do these people have any power? Are they beheading anyone? Are they strapping bombs on children? Are they firing thousands of rockets with ball-bearing warheads into civilian areas?
There is no equivalence here, and it is an insult to our intelligence to imply it.
There is a difference between speech and action; that is what the First Amendment is all about.
Rob: Wasn’t saying you specifically were going to try and convert me. What I was trying to say is that if I don’t want to become a catholic, anybody that wants to try to convert me needs to stay away. I believe what I believe. Somebody doesn’t need to tell me that I have to convert.
Hell, if a station wants Rush Limbaugh on it 24 hrs. a day, let them. They should have all the freedoms that we allow. If there is a TV station that wants 24 hours of Sean Hannity, god bless them. Go get it. However, if you want to say that all the media is liberal, then I think you must re-examine what you think. I hate CNN, because I think they are biased Left. I hate FOX, because I know they are biased Right. I watch MSNBC, because I think they try to be in the middle somewhere. Don’t tell me that it’s liberal, because I won’t be able to agree with you. Chris Matthews isn’t Liberal. Joe Scarborough isn’t Liberal. Tucker Carlson isn’t Liberal. Keith Olbermann is Liberal. 1 out of 4. Hmmmm. Shout it with me: Liberal network!
Irrelevant? IReland/Sitish battles. You didn’t specify that you wanted American examples. You said:
As far as I know, no Christian has ever shot up anything in God’s Name, but the Islamofascists are at it 24/7.
As far as I know, no American Islamists have committed acts of terror. Jose Padilla? please. The Miami five? They couldn’t even tie their shoes. Tell me an American Islamist that has committed acts of terror against the US.
I just said that if Jesus Camp wants to make 5 and 6 year olds Christian Warriors that pray to George Bush, I think that they deserve a little scrutiny.
Wrong again. Genocide ends in the death of the non-believers.
You really don’t know the difference?
No, but these adults that abuse children like this are.
This is nothing less than child abuse.
Annsie, Our form of government is a democratic republic. Those elected reflect the positions of the majority in any given district and state. The majority of those elected agree with our President’s foreign policy. Those who disagree are not represented by the majority in government because they are in the minority — thank God. America is operating as designed.
I’m taking him at his word.
Laying down their lives=suicide.
Killing a bunch of other people because of their race/culture=genocide.
See the difference?
Rob: Are they forming sleeper cells? No, they are putting out their stuff on video. You might not like it, and I may not like it, but they have the right to do that in this country. They aren’t calling for the overthrow of the govt, just an equal(and disgusting) commitment to their religion as the Islamofascists have to theirs. This paranoia about Christianity is getting pretty far-fetched, IMO. There is no valid comparison between these people and the terrorists.
Maybe if regular people would stand up to terrorism instead of wimping out, extremists like these wouldn’t feel the need to preach their stuff. While I don’t agree with them, I feel their pain. I have heard similar stuff from non-radical friends. They think we have “lost it” as a nation, and won’t stand up and fight off either the illegal immigrant invasion or the one from Islam. I hope they’re wrong.
No.
Both end in the death of the “believer.”
These kids aren’t old enough to know what to believe in.
Born-again doesn’t mean when your 6 years old.
Laying down their lives? Close enough for me.
Just another David Koresh.
What kind of insanity is this?
I’ve never heard of such a thing.
This lady should be put out of business for radicallizing children.
This is disgusting.
This country is being torn apart by one group that thinks we are the cause of all the world’s problems, and another that wants to go suicidal against the suicide bombers.
Not like this, no.
Let them find their own way.
Their parents should be sent to the mental asylum in Jamestown.
That’s your argument? They do it too.
Weak. And unprincipled.
robert108,
They are brainwashing children just like the Soviets and Nazis.
Kids in cammo on a stage is not far from Brownshirts and Hitler’s Youth.
You don’t know anything of the kind. Their parents are undoubtedly involved, and they should have the final say on what their children are taught. If I had to choose between being in a high school class where they are taught 9/11 conspiracy theories or that Jews are evil and deserve to die and this, I would have a very hard time choosing which is worse.
The difference is, this is just one group, and the leftie indoctrination in our schools goes on all over the country. If you want this to end, end it all, not just what one small group is doing. Then there are the mosques…
These folks drive me nuts. These kids are taught to be Jesus Robots.
I know that Radical Islam is dangerous and evil. But we still need to teach tolerance. These sort of camps and the off the map Evangelical crap that is spreading teaches consistently that there is no room for dialogue on issues like Abortion, Religious tolerance, the role of Church and State, the placement of “Under God” in the pledge, and in posting the Ten Commandments in every courthouse. These folks are using government to spread their version of religion and state it up front. And it just inflames the ACLU.
I have no love for the ACLU at all, but given the way folks like this are pushing their Christian Faith, you have to expect that the Athiests and Christian bashers out there will unite and fight to destroy every religious institution. It is this radical and self righteous version of Christianity that fails to hear that many of these issues are more complex than a 2,000 year old manuscript called the Bible has answers for. It requires the ability to think and reason (which these camps don’t teach), not the ability to tune in to Falwell or the 700 Club and spout the same tired rhetoric.
The Jesus Camp participants are blogging at http://www.jesuscamperrs.com. It’s interesting and engaging.
Forcing this hogwash down the throats of children has nothing to do with freedom.
Freedom is amongst consenting adults that understand what is going on.
These are mindcontrol subjects.
This is the opposite of what America is about.
I’m sorry, I can’t agree that these adults have the right to do this to children.
Rob: It makes me uncomfortable, too.
I guess I got the wrong impression. It sounded like a call to action from you.
Yes, commissar, and death to anyone who thinks otherwise, eh? You seem to be projecting your unresolved childhood issues on these people. Get a grip. It sounds like you are the one on a power trip playing God with our minds. Shame on you!
I now see Free already pointed that out, I agree.
Robert 108:
IMHO Rush Limbaugh is a loudmouth who gets preferential tratment from law enforcement and is off his right-leaning chariot along with Bill O’Reilly and Sean Hannity. However, if they have a point that I can agree with, I don’t blow them off. I listen and see if they are right and I am wrong. I know, a novel concept. Agreeing with somebody from a different point of view. If you don’t know what she said, how do you know if she was off-base with what she said?
Free: I guess you missed my argument. It was that this is not the same as what the terrorists do, that their parents apparently feel OK about this, and that they have the Free Speech right to say this stuff. They don’t have a right to subvert our govt or use “conversion by the sword” to convert people, and they aren’t doing that. I gave numerous examples of the differences between these people and the terrorists you are trying to equate them to.
Did you miss all that?
The fact that you don’t protest the mosques was not my argument for anything, just a note about your hypocrisy here.
graeme: If you really believe that, call CPS.
This is old news. I knew about Jesus Camp when it debuting at the Tribeca Film Festival in April. Thanks to the Rachel Maddow show on Air America Radio. They aren’t talking about Christians in Pakistan and Palestine. The “pastor” is teaching these children to lay down their lives for Christianity. Sort of like the middle ages and the crusades. She also is instructing them to convert those children that don’t believe in Jesus Christ. If this isn’t radical, please tell me what is.
It’s a woman on a powertrip playing god with these kid’s minds.
No one is talking about the effin Muslims.
Why are you trying to create some moral equivalency to what the Muslims do?
That sort of moral relativism is everything that we are again…maybe I better start questioning your conservatism, hmmm?
Ok,
You guys are reacting like the politically correct Liberal media. By taking to task the use of terms like Warrior/soldier.
The Church teaches that there are stages of existence. The Church Militant, The Church Suffering, and The Church Victorious. Those on earth are engaged in a struggle (a battle if you will) to get in to heaven. The souls of Purgatory are suffering a penence and the souls of Heaven are in union with god.
Please understand that I would not condone this camp and would not send my child there (if I had one).
I grew up something called The Worldwide Church of God till I was 12.
They are as Christian as anyone yet they don’t celebrate Christmas, or Easter, or eat ham even.
When I was a kid I was singled out for that.
But that was mild compared to this group here.
Robert you make a very good point. Actually I have sang that song and someone over heard me and reacted as if I was some sort of crazy calling for the next crusade! Ahh to live in ignorance.
Robert 108,
Yeah. You are right. It’s only Democrats trying to change the founding principals that America was founded on. Plus, I didn’t say all conservatives are on a right-wing chariot only those 3 blowhards. Hell, I’ll vote for Gov. Hoeven in the next election that he runs. Constitution as a living document? No, but the Right is just as bad as the Left in shaping it. Money as free speech? Please.
I also don’t think Free is Anti-Christian. He just has a different point of view.
As for this subject, I am concerned about this camp. I believe in freedom of religion. However, I don’t need you to try and convert me to catholicism. I am fine with my religious decisions, and I would hope that other people would respect that. It doesn’t sound like that will happen with these soldiers/warriors.
Free:
It’s a woman and a few children, exercising their Constitutional right to the free exercise of their religion. Get a grip.
Your unhinged fear and anger are a far greater menace, as you would deprive them of their Constitutional rights out of your fear. Shame on you!
Censorship of what?
Speak all you want, you have no right to be heard.
What the hell does that have to do with this?
This is an issue of common sense. These kids don’t know what they are doing, and for what, so some other people can tell themselves at night that they are spreading God’s word?
The God I know of does not spread his word by the sword or by mind control.
Ii will give the church I grew up in one thing cause it made sense – they didn’t baptist people when they are babies.
Babies and Children are innocent, they have no sins to be washed away.
Let these kids be kids.
Let them get into trouble.
Let them put tacks on the teachers chair.
Let them learn what the world is about.
Let them play violent video games.
Let them get caught with the nudie magizine.
For God’s sake, let them grow up.
Between BS like this, and driving kids into the ground with school, and sports, and pressue of all sorts, it is no one they shoot up the schools.
There is enough in this world for adults to worry about, there is no need to drag these kids into the mess.
comments are more interesting then a post itself… interesting how far fetched and how much fury the subject is promoting…
in my opinion these “Born-again” a little off the subject, personaly I would prohibit involvement into religion to everyone before certain age. Today no medival time and religion propagation is not the only source of information like it was back then, there is a CNN for instance…you know etc. So putting people , [yuong people especially] into the religeous mind-frame, it is like predisposing them to be ignorant and mind set close to the life opportunities, perspetives and potential, simple not to be prone to the reality , much less adaptive and not to be able to percieve and react to the basic issues of growing into a person. As the result we see these outcomes, as an example.
But what most important there is inherent problem of “Born-again” is for the adult people who rediscovered the “true meaningof life” , the concious choice to live and act differently. As for these examples it is a propagada and brainwash- certainly, much like Soviets in the past, and Musleems of today in Arab countries, but I would not venture any further like some of the commenters suggested. It is not healthy and desctructive mentaly – Definatly.
Brent:
Oh, drat! I thought you were going to catch me up on the abortion clinic shooting, or two. You change from this country to another fued unrelated to anything to do with the Jesus Camp. Nice try, though.
The Irish/British wars were about territory, with an overlay of religion, but are irrelevant to this discussion. If you want to compare the abortion clinic shootings with Islamofascism, though, go right ahead. A warning: you will run out of material very quickly.
Dibs on the pubs.
Everybody watch the Anti-Christian comments thats how the Reformation started and turned into a blood bath.
That should have been “I saw her a lot…”
brent: IMO, Rachel Maddow is a far-left loonie.
If you think so, take action; call CPS.
Your the nut.
Cause I dont think she has the right to do this I must want her to die right?
To quote Rob’s favorite word. Moron.
Excellent question Rob.
What sort of Christian Jihad are this kids going to war with?
Brent: I notice that you didn’t make any counter-argument in favor of Rachel Maddow; instead, you did a “hit-back” on people you don’t like. I went along with it, because what you wrote was so wrong, especially about Rush. I notice you made no counter argument to the facts about Rush, either. Neither did you comment on the real “preferential treatment” given to Patrick Kennedy. Just letting you know I noticed your strategy for not dealing with the issues, but continuing to change the subject.
Also, you state that “the Right” is trying to shape the Constitution. Example(s) please.
BTW, O’Reilly is no conservative. You can have him. Trying to include him with Rush and Sean is obscene.
Brent: I say her a lot on “The Situation” with Tucker Carlson; hardly a “right-wing” show. While I think she’s cute, in a lesbian sort of way, I’m sure she’s a lot more radical on so-called “Air America”.
You might be more convincing in your attempt to portray yourself as “broad-minded” if you didn’t refer to Conservatives as being on a “right-leaning chariot”, though. They represent the founding principles of this country, while the Dems and the lefties want collectivism and central control, and to use the economic system to implement social policy. Not the founding principles of this country.
The only “preferential treatment” Rush got from law enforcement was a baseless prosecution and lots of publicity, as compared to leftie celebrities with far worse drug problems, like the Kennedys, for instance. Contrast his treatment with that of Patrick Kennedy, who was breaking several laws, and has been in and out of rehab for about twenty years. The press made him out to be some sort of hero, and the police really did give him preferential treatment by not giving him a sobriety test at the scene, even though he ran into something with his car.
The word “Hezbollah” means “Army of God” in Arabic.
I bet the members call themselves “Soldiers of God.”
Soldiers goto Battle.
End of story.
This is “new evangelicism”. It is not Christian fundamentalism. What is shown in this video is concerning.
New evangelicism preaches a version of the “doctrine of the kingdom” which sees the world getting better and better until Christ establishes his kingdom on earth. They preach that the work they do will “usher in the kingdom”. They do not advocate extremism or radicalism as a means to this end. The do however work to “redeem the culture” and are not opposed to political means of doing so.
“Warriors of the Faith” thats what she means not warriors as to engage in an actual war. They are to go out and evangilize.
Remember it says in the bible where we are to go out and spread the word. It is not extreme to try and bring some one to Christ. That is your duty as a Christian.
Is it not absurd to believe in something and then not express why you believe that. Would you not desire more to think like you.
Free: Excuse my hyperbole; you just wanted them locked up in a mental institution. My bad.
Of course, that is censorship, but no matter; you’re alright, eh?
You seem to be so comfortable dictating what others should think and believe. Heard of the Constitution, or do you consider it a “living document” you can bend to any shape to serve your anti-Christian agenda?
Rob:
Those who would destroy us. This isn’t a pre-emptive war. Most “militant” Christians(and I am not one), preach a defensive war at best. I find this post interesting in how it has called out the anti-Christian paranoia in so many commenters. I think they are dangerous; not as dangerous as the Islamofascists, but dangerous enough to suppress Christianity in their paranoia. More violence is done out of fear than is done out of anger, and the really murderous violence is almost always about fear.
Even the Crusades were for the purpose of defending the Holy Land from the Muslims who invaded it.
Once again, find me the teaching of conversion by violence, and I might agree with you; lacking that, it’s just anti-Christian paranoia.
Rob,
Thanks. I’m going to link to you on by blog. I’m going to try and find the interview the Rachel Maddow had on this camp. If I can find it, I’ll get it to you. I might be a Democrat, but I love reading about different viewpoints than my own.
Rob,
email me and I will send the audio that I have found so far. Of course, it’s from a Democratic point of view.
I am not trying to engage in hyperbole here, but I find this a form of child abuse. I grew up on farm somewhat close to Devils Lake, I hadn’t heard of this. I will have to ask my parents about it.
I think i will just keep laughing… I am wasting my time… You will probably go off now saying all the Irish and the Rest of Europe are fools… Oh no,, sorry you wouldnt… because you dont insult and demean anyone… Just try reading back some of your earlier comments..
cheers guys… always a pleasure
When she spoke of people “laying down their lives” she is not talking about taking up arms against islamists but having such a deep faith that they will dedicate their lives to Christ and if they were faced with living in denile of the Lord or Death they would choose Death. That is essentially the calling of all Christians. I believe that. In giving your life to save others you are showing the ultimate sign of love.
Now I am not necessarily a promoter of this type of “Camp” but I do believe it is important for Children and Adults to be educated on the importantance of knowing and loving Christ with your entire being.
Really this type of Camp makes me uncomfortable because they are pushing politcal issues that are important but need to be separated from understanding who the person of Christ is and how we live like him.
Of Course, I am a Catholic and my beliefs stress understanding through reason not simply carrying blind faith.
Free: You poor thing. Sniff, sniff. You want to spew your fear and hate and not get any blowback. No such luck. You are playing with the big boys now.
Rob asked:
I then meant to say:
What sort of Christian Jihad are this kids going to war in (not with)?
The Feast Day of St. Januarius is today Tuesday, Sept. 19th. His story is kind of fitting to the conversation.
Enjoy
Free:
I must conclude that you really don’t read anything; you just react emotionally to one or two words. I have made several comments about how there is no equivalence here. The terrorist Muslims are in a different(and far worse) dimension, and have detailed that argument. If you missed it, don’t blame me. You are really acting nutty tonight, more than usual.
Four points:
1) It sounds to me like she is speaking of the CHRISTIANS in Pakistan, Palestine, and Israel, not “the folks” as though to infer Islamists. Those Christians that proclaim their faith in the midst of sure death in those countries (and thus laying down their lives) are true heros of the faith and ought to be held up.
2) You’d agree that there is a very big difference between laying down ones life and taking anothers. No one should have a problem with someone being willing to lay down one’s life for faith, when you start killing others for that faith is where you cross the line.
3) The Bible speaks much about being a warrior, warfare, the armour of God, etc… but it is all in a SPIRITUAL context. From that breif segment, the impression is that these kids, and leaders, are talking in a PHYSICAL context. I’d like to know which they are speaking about.
4) “Pastor” Becky Fisher? Apparently they don’t read the Bible at this camp…
A bunch of lunatics. Their basic understanding of higher education is “watching Jerry Springer”
These idiots are out for sensationalized headlines and don’t give a shit what damage they do to the reputations of real Christians who gentley and quietly go about their daily lives.
Acts 5
Gamaliel’s Advice
35 He said to them, “Men of Israel, ….not long ago Theudas rose up, claiming to be somebody, and a group of about 400 men rallied to him.
He was killed, and all his partisans were dispersed and came to nothing.
37 After this man, Judas the Galilean rose up in the days of the census and attracted a following. That man also perished, and all his partisans were scattered.
38 And now, I tell you……. if this plan or this work is of men, it will be overthrown
Joe:
Of course you’re right, but there are those so gripped by anti-Christian fear that they equate these people with the Muslims who say the same thing.
What they fail to notice is that the terrorists are lying, in that they really want to kill and/or subjugate us, but the Christians are telling the truth. Big difference. People in fear can’t think.
Yes, I resign my commenterhood.
g’nite all.
Have a good time calling people creative names like stupid, idiot, and moron.
Glad to hear it Brent. Just so you guys know.. Europeans are beginning to see Americans as a terrorists… You are going into countries an occupying them and thousands of innocents are being killed. I really like American people in fact, I married one earlier this year but I have to say your govenment are putting your people in danger from the rest of the world. Your media seems to supress what the rest of the world thinks on these issues. Get your government to stop before its too late..
There is no “Christian Jihad”. Who are you really? Rosie O’Donnell?
Yeah, right, and these people doing this to kids are normal?
If that’s normal put me in a straight jacket.
In response to some of the posts:
The words used such as “soldiers”, “warrior”, “fighting”, are used in the New Testament to describe the battle of the soul against evil, not a physical conflict. The “laying down of life” is exactly what Christ did, and many of his followers, who would not depart from their faith, suffered death at the hands of those who despised Christianity. Whether or not this is the context of these terms in the video is not clear.
There are many degrees between nutty and normal. I never said these people are normal; if you had read any of my comments, and had been able to think clearly, you would know that. I consider you nuttier than they are, but not as nutty as the terrorists.
As far as putting you in a straightjacket…isn’t that really what you want to do to everyone who doesn’t agree with you?
Guys Can I ask you a question. Not many people had a problem with Americans going into Afganistan because we believed that you had a valid reason to do so. Then came Iraq because at that time Bush gave the impression that Saddam was involved with Al Qaeida…( thats what we were told ) The world is having grave doubts especially since George admitted recently that they had nothing to do with 911. So why are they still there? Now, Bush is gearing up for Iran… Does the rest of the world not count? We object!!
After Iran will it then be Syria? The reason is supposingly a war on terror… The question is this… How may people believe this? Cheers
Rob: I do see that this post has unleashed a lot of unhinged anti-Christian paranoia. I don’t that same passion in dealing with the real terrorists, and their very real violent practices. I understand that everyone would like the Christians to simply stay out of sight, but we are entitled to stand up and be counted at least as much as the terrorists. I like the way Joe Miller put it, btw. Not my cup of tea, but very valid. Of course, if you think “Onward Christian Soldiers” is a war song, maybe the paranoia has struck too deep.
These bozo’s are about as representative of Christians as
Rob: I don’t think that of you at all. As a matter of fact, I’m glad you posted this, because it has brought the anti-Christian crazies out of the woodwork for us all to see. When that guy on Fox stated that their was a campaign against Christmas, he was ridiculed. I think we can see that he was more correct than anyone thought. The depth of anti-Christian fear was even surprising to me, and I have seen a lot of it.
One slightly off center Christian woman gives a camp for a few kids, and the nuts try to make a “Christian Jihad” out of it, when there is a real jihad with real loss of life going on in the world. How out of it can they be?
As far as the words are concerned, I realized, as I wrote to Joe, that the real jihadists say the same things, but they are lying. The fact that this woman and her camp aren’t responsible for any killings, rapes, mutilations or assassinations might give someone a clue, if they could just calm down and start thinking again.
As far as I know, no Christian has ever shot up anything in God’s Name, but the Islamofascists are at it 24/7.
What? What about the Irish/British wars of the 80’s between Catholics and Protestants? What about Rwanda? Christians from Europe were advocating genocide to their missionaries there! The Lord’s name has been used throughout history with some bad things. All religions have been used to excuse things that were wrong.
I got nes for ya Joe, to speak out against these preposterous pandering proselytizers sure as hell ain’t “anti-christian!!”
What these people do to those kids is sick in a snuff film sort of way.
Brent,
Welcome to Say Anything, but if you actually do say anything, you will likely be called a moron or a commisar or something stupid like that and then be told your against free speech.
I question why I come here at all.
I may resign soon.
I do know that all this is bible prophesy and is going with GOD’s supreme plan.
Michael the Archangel and guardian of Israel has been sent by GOD to confuse his nations of Jerusalem and Israel, and cause division among them.
We, in the West are considered part of the Gentile Nation and by the Grace of GOD have been grafted in the Olive Tree are nearing the ‘time of the fullness’.
There is a reason for all this to happen.. and even the water flowing in Israel and the flowers and trees and crops blooming (our satellites pictures can prove this) are a sign that Israel is getting ready for Jesus to come.
The prophesy about the ’sea being divided in two’ is already happening– the Dead Sea is already drying up towards the lower part and will become two seas. One of them will have fresh water and they are already raising fish to stock the waters.
I have spending much of my time lately learning about how GOD wants us to make sure we will be open to the Holy Spirit speaking to us and ‘raining down knowledge’ in the latter days.
We need to pray for the peace of Jerusalem and Israel and know that the plan is taking place.
There is still a ‘remnant’ that is being saved over there. The word Hamas is even in the bible.
It is just that we cannot ’see’ it because you have to read the Hebrew translation. Our bible version uses the word “violence”.
I have learned some very interesting things, but Western media has been convaluting much information for us.
Bugger off you raicleach striapach!
re: Ken Mcracken..Thanks Ken you gave me the best laugh I have had in ages… You insulted me because I am Irish… You said I had a freckled arse… I suppose I must have red hair too.. Talk about sweeping generalisations… I suppose all muslims are terrorists.. Is there anyway people like you can make a point disagreeing with me rather than insulting my intelligence or demeaning me? The word racist comes to mind. What age are you ken? 12?
Count one for non-believer in The War on Terror rational, annsie.
annsie said, I am from Ireland and we have terrorists called the I.R.A…. Do you think America would be within its right to occupy Ireland and root out the terrorists involved??
Didn’t you guys take care of that yourselves?
Or is it just Third world countries with Oil…
Oil money enables the dictators. Common sense.
Did any of you guys hear propaganda? Thats what your president uses to frighten you guys into agreeing with war….
Don’t project. I’m not frightened in any way.
I hope u guys wake up..And insulting Europeans isnt the way around it…
Wake up to what? You don’t say.
And before you bitch about us insulting you, perhaps it would behoove you to stop insulting us.
We have a clearer view that you guys as we are not caught up in the war on terror as you are.
I’d say that those who spout off this kind of nonsense do not have a clear view of much of anything.
I am not trying to aienate you..I would really like you to think for yourselves instead of listening to propaganda…
There you go insulting again.
Listen cupcake – we are thinking for ourselves. Just because you may disagree with our positions, does not mean that we aren’t thinking for ourselves.
No need to jump on everyone that disagrees with you… Blind faith is a dangerous thing. Just keep and open mind guys.. Not a lot to ask
Take your own advice.
Well to be honest We seem to have been trading insults for the last hour so I was sort of curious as to where you were from. I guess I still dont know… I am from Dublin.. Just in case you were curious. I have enjoyed sparring with you all the same…And that is not sarcastic just in case you are getting ready to explode.
Brent: I am not a Catholic, and I have absolutely no desire to convert you in any way. You made that up.
I know you lefties would like to take away the free speech rights of conservative radio, and you may yet succeed(I hope not; you already have all the major newspapers and all but one of the TV networks), but that just illustrates your intolerance for a diversity of opinion, and your desire for central control.
BTW, name one founding principle that Conservatives don’t support, and one that lefties do support(for everyone, not just their favored groups).
Still waiting for those brilliant scintillating european gems of wisdom for us dumb yokels here in America.
Oh deary me, I insulted the Irish race!
Just who started slinging the insults here, anyway? And now you complain about it?
Hypocrite.
Take his toys and go home….
Similar to AnarchistVegan who made her triumphal return yesterday after a grueling and arduous 12 hour relinquishment of “RIGHT WING BLOGS”
They’re addicted Rob. Can’t you see that ?
They can’t turn loose of a “Good Thing!”
It’s nice to be needed!
Annsie
Brent:
I’m a little fuzzy on the details, but there was a serviceman(an American Muslim) who fragged some other servicemen. He was just convicted and sentenced recently, I believe. With the way the MSM tries to hide this stuff, there might be a lot more, like the guy who shot up the Jewish Center and the guy who ran down a bunch of students in his SUV. It’s definitely happening.
BTW, Chris Matthews is not only a leftie, but a sufferer from BDS. Tucker Carlson is a squishy libertarian, and Joe Scarborough is a RINO, unfortunately. 0 for 4 for MSNBC. Olberman is so toxic, though, he makes up for at least 10 RINOS/libertarians.
they are not metaphors to Becky Fischer but then again, I wouldn’t characterize her people as Christians.
annsie said, Is there anyway people like you can make a point disagreeing with me rather than insulting my intelligence or demeaning me?
Calm down and wake up. We’re just trying to correct the notions you have bought into because of the propaganda you buy into. Your media seems to suppress what the rest of America thinks on these issues. We’re just trying to correct that.
Just so you know annsie, Americans are starting to see Europeans as terrorist sympathizers. I hope you guys wake up. And insulting Americans isn’t the way around it. We have a clearer view than you guys. I am not trying to alienate you. I would really like you to think for yourselves instead of listening to anti-American propaganda. No need to jump on us because we are American. Blind faith is a dangerous thing. Just keep an open mind annsie. Not a lot to ask.
(Now don’t take me to task for the tone of my message. Most of it was copied and pasted from your own comments. Perhaps now you can see the hypocrisy in your calls against demeaning you.)
Someone obviously has no understandig of the historical reformation, nor it’s root causes… Do you know exactly how many people died directly because of the reformation? Not very many, it was largely a non-violent movement…
Free says:
You obviously don’t have children…
Anyway, as Christians we understand that EVERYONE needs salvation from a young age to an old man. If you want to raise your children without any imput about your views on life, go for it. But don’t tell me I can’t impose my beliefs on my children! They are my children and I will raise them as I see fit. Trying to impose YOUR view on my children is an awfully liberal position for you to take…
Hyperthyroidism says:
Banning all religious activities for kids, huh? You’re a communis idiot…
Ah, but you go on to insult us by saying we listen to propaganda. Nice one.
Listen little miss Irish knowitall, we read the Guardian, we watch the BBC, we get our news from Reuters and AP, we read blogs, the New York Times, and search for news throughout the world with Google and Yahoo.
Chances are we are all quite a bit more informed than you are, and we don’t rely on local gossip and our friends to keep us up to date.
Just because someone doesn’t agree with you doesn’t mean they listen to ‘propaganda’.
Maybe you are the one who needs to open their eyes.
And yeah, if the 9/11 terrorists were named O’Leary and Sullivan you bet your freckled ass Ireland could expect an invasion if they trained and supported them.
Rob: “Uh…Robert? The lady herself, in the video above, says that she’d like her kids to lay down their lives for their religion like the folks in Palestine do.”
Becky was not talking about suicides. I believe she meant with the same fervency and determination as the “folks in Palestine.” Not in the same way! When have Christians ever suicide bombed? “Lay down their lives” meaning Christian martyrdom, which is different, as in, the person is in a situation where they have to denounce their faith or die. That stuff goes on all the time around the world. And the Christians who do it don’t kill other people in the process. They die because they choose to stand up for what they believe in. That’s what she was talking about.
likwid: Actually, in Ireland it’s very important “where you are from”. It’s a leftover from the old tribal days. It’s a remnant of a society based on family heritage.
Generalisation? I just called you Americans… You are ….arent you?
I agree. The real big problem is that the radical Muslims use exactly the same terminology, but mean it literally. This gives the anti-Christians something to be scared about, because they interpret the Christians to mean what the Muslims mean by it. Paradoxically, many people, despite their actions to the contrary, hold that the radical Muslims are talking spirituality rather than actual war and killing. Weird. Bias, maybe?
R108,
I think you misunderstood. Evil which is invisible manifests itself in the physical.
That doesn’t make it a metaphor. A metaphor
is a similtude. So I grant you the terms ’soldier’ and ‘warrior’ are metaphors to the Christian. My mistake for lumping them all together.
R108, the proper term is not “literally” — ‘physically’ would be more accurate. The words are not metaphors in either case, but in christianity it is believed there is a literal battle that must be fought between the personal soul and the evil within and the evil influences without. To the Christian this evil is not in physical form, rather, it is spiritual.
Erin Go Bragh
HG:
That is exactly true, and is the definition of metaphorical.
Muslims mean it literally, and Christians mean it metaphorically.
Rob: It’s like when a standup comedian says, “I killed tonight.” It’s metaphor, dude.
R108,
The difference between the use of the terms is seen in the objectives of Muslims as opposed to Christians. Muslims fight and war for world domination. Christians are to fight and war for personal holiness.
Christians do also fight and war for the truth. This is commanded to be done by speaking the truth and living one’s life consistant with truth.
In no case is it to be done through physical means.
Paranoia? No, more like shame.
Shame that something like this goes on in my state.
Shame that these people are lumped in with me under the umbrella of Christianity.
Quit pushing it on everyone.
Let people discover Jesus for themselves.
Why is that such a bad thing?
…..in this context(Jesus camp)it sounds a little like
Jihad is not violence, it means the self conflict to do good in life,the word jihad has been narrowly interpreted in the non-Muslim west as “holy war,” reducing it to the sole dimension of physical violence. In fact jihad also means effort, or struggle, along the path toward God,
Mohamed Kotb on September 18, 2006 at 10:56 PM
Jesus..Are you two a tag team.? I guess 12 it is then. Ken’s age that is. Ever wonder why the rest of the world think Americans are so arrogant? You two… thats why… I dont care what you say about the Irish but its a typical example of you tarring everyone with the same brush… I didnt mean to come across as holier than thou but there certainly is no reason to start delibrately insulting them… which is what you two guys do best… I guess no one is allowed to have an opinion in this world except the Americans…. who always know best of course….
lisa:
Cheers Rob.
HG, that’s my only hope. Okay, gotta mow now.
Actually I am not trying to start a fight. Bring Ken back… all is forgiven…lol
Oh yes, by all means, the psychotic mullahs in Iran, and the dictator Bashar Assad in Syria must be protected and coddled at all costs!
Otherwise, who knows, something terrible might happen like democracy breaking out there or something awful like that.
More fodder for Iraqnam.
More PTSD for the USA when they come back in pieces.
Becky Fischer ought to be dropped naked with a Bible into Baghdad.
Any parent who gives this woman their kid for even 5 minutes is a lunatic.
“Two hands working can do more than a thousand clasped in prayer.”
What a waste. And in this country! And we call ourselves “enlightened!” Ha!
..SOME of what she says.
I don’t what to play mister smartass but you obviously don’t know jack about the Reformation period. Thousands of people were slaughtered on both sides over issues that were brought on because of the Reformation. Each side declared the other the Anti-Christ and it created a horrible back and forth of burning people on a stake.
annsie, it’s what they do best.
Welcome to the extrie cripsy nutter blog.
aNON: This woman and her children(or organization, if it exists) aren’t killing anyone, converting by the sword, enriching uranium, flying airliners into buildings, making IDEs, sending suicide bombers out to kill people in shopping malls and pizza parlors, or anything of the kind. See the difference? Ideas are covered under the First Amendment; actions aren’t. This is the difference. If you try to suppress ideas out of fear, you violate the founding principles of this country.
Gee, that wouldn’t be a dreaded GENERALIZATION, would it?
7-year-olds in camouflage face-paint performing war dances….
a driven, self-assured children’s educator who announces that “democracy is designed to destroy itself”…….
“The reason you go for kids is because whatever they learn by the time they’re 7 or 8 or 9 years old is pretty well there for the rest of their lives,” Fischer says
You can’t have it both ways!
It’s wrong any way you slice it!
It’s an Irish phrase … when you lose the run of yourself it means that you have lost sight of your objectives…
Well, just to let you know, America hasn’t lost the run of itself. We haven’t elected Democrats to majority. If and when we do that, then your criticism will be spot on.
annsie cries, Ever wonder why the rest of the world think Americans are so arrogant? You two… thats why…
Wow! Who knew that Say Anything blog commenters had that much power?
I didnt mean to come across as holier than thou but there certainly is no reason to start delibrately insulting them… which is what you two guys do best…
Insulting whom again? Seems you did that in your first comment. You’ve done it in every comment. I wouldn’t go so far as to say that it is what you “do best”, but it seems to be what you do often.
I guess no one is allowed to have an opinion in this world except the Americans…. who always know best of course….
Hey, let’s get stupidly ridiculous.
You’ve been called out onto the carpet for your hypocrisy and the only thing you can do is insult.
Guys Guys Guys… Thank you so much for making me laugh so much. You gotta love Americans…..
See. Liberals don’t understand the virtue of liberty, rather they prioritize the supposed virtue of world opinion.
No, we don’t always know best, but don’t come here with a holier-than-thou superior european attitude and expect anything other than what you got.
If you want to dialogue, fine, but accusing us of listening to propaganda instead of listening to your superior european intellect is not a way to make friends or get started on a good foot here.
Now, what was your point again, this time in a civilized manner?
annsie continues, You gotta love Americans…..
Is this the same person who was bitching about “tarring everyone with the same brush”?
Your hypocrisy knows no bounds annsie.
Now that you’ve run through your course of insults, assumptions, and hypocrisies, do you have anything else to add?
Or do you just want to continue laughing?
I’m disturb with what she is doing. However, I think it would be rediculous for the government to step in and suppress what she is doing, so long as the parent know full well what she is doing and still consent to their kid attending the camp (something that seems to be the case) and that she doesnt do anything illegal (judging merely by the clip I would say what she is doing if perfectly legal and even protected under our Constitution).
I really don’t like what she is doing, which is basicly the indoctrination of highly impressionble kids into her PERSONAL views of Christianity. However, I don’t see any legitimate reason why the government should restrict it, and I would be against such a drastic measure. ..unless the state laws are changed while still remaining true to our Constitution, something I don’t see can be done.
“realitybased”bob spews, annsie, it’s what they do best.
Welcome to the extrie cripsy nutter blog.
More hypocrisy.
Whatever you do, don’t focus on the topic at hand.
None of those are the reason why I find what she does and say disturbing. ..See the difference?
..and where have I advocated for her freedom of speech, religion, to congregate and other constitutionally guaranteed freedoms be restricted/suppressed?
annsie said, Liberty? Good god… America is losing the run of itself…You should care….
How are we “losing the run of itself”? What the hell does that even mean?
A lot of Americans are anti war… Should your government not listen to them?
Those anti-war people lost the election. So now what?
aNON: I didn’t misunderstand you. I reject your equivalence between Christianity and Islam. The reality of Islamic terrorism is not comparable in any way to a few extreme Christians shown in this video. I would love to see and embrace those “non-terrorist, peace loving Muslims”, as soon as they make themselves known to the public by speaking out against the atrocities of their fundamentalist bretheren, and by turning them in. Then I’ll believe.
“More fodder for Iraqnam. More PTSD for the USA when they come back in pieces.
Becky Fischer ought to be dropped naked with a Bible into Baghdad.
Any parent who gives this woman their kid for even 5 minutes is a lunatic.”
Mark,
I should assume by your apparent hatred of Christians that you are a liberal democrat. Am I correct?
Ken, I have to say.. I am getting rather fond of you…
This is for the attention of my good friends whom i was talking too earlier…
DOUBTS ABOUT BUSH’S FREEDOM AGENDA: “President Bush will face a tough, and in many cases hostile, crowd when he addresses the United Nations General Assembly today,” the New York Times reports. “The mayhem in Iraq, his flouting of the Geneva Conventions, the hectoring tone of his previous appearances will all make it much harder for him to elicit the respect or even the full attention that any American president should command.” Bush will discuss his “freedom agenda,” and focus on the Middle East as the “main battle ground” in the fight to “defend civilization and liberty.” Bush has an uphill battle to convince UN members. A recent German Marshall Fund survey found esteem for the US has fallen over the past five years. (In Europe, 37 percent of those surveyed said the “US should exert strong leadership in the world,” compared to 64 percent in 2001.) Iraq is making things worse. The war has “become the shorthand summary of American foreign policy,” making it difficult for Bush to “resonate much with the world.” The administration’s approach to terrorism adds to doubts about U.S intentions. “If you just look at how we are perceived in the world and the kind of criticism we have taken over Guantanamo, Abu Ghraib and renditions,” former Secretary of State Colin Powell said, “whether we believe it or not, people are now starting to question whether we’re following our own high standards.” The administration’s plan to redefine Common Article 3 of the Geneva Conventions only “adds to the doubt” about Bush’s agenda, Powell added.
annsie said, You will probably go off now saying all the Irish and the Rest of Europe are fools…
No. Just the ones like you.
Oh no,, sorry you wouldnt… because you dont insult and demean anyone… Just try reading back some of your earlier comments..
I called you onto the floor for crying about insults while insulting yourself. I threw some of your own insults right back at you to show the hypocrisy. No need to make it out to be anything more than that.
Bye now!
Hey Bezu Hows it going? Why do you be up at that hour on the night… Surfing the internet looking for things to moan about?
ROB, if Jesus Camp planning on advertising on this site?
Mark: In this free country, you are certainly entitled to your opinion, as is Becky Fischer. Iraq is almost an exact parallel to postwar Nazi Germany; it has almost no relation to Vietnam, except for the press lying about it. That is the only parallel.
Nice to hear you want to wreak violence on those who disagree with you, like the enemies of this country want to do.
Re likwidshoe…
You really are a rather angry person arent you? Is this what you do all day? Looking for someone to argue with? I have enjoying blogging with you.. How about getting down off your High horse for a moment…What part of the states are you from?
annsie assumes, You really are a rather angry person arent you? Is this what you do all day? Looking for someone to argue with?
No. No. No.
How about getting down off your High horse for a moment…
Back up. How about you get off of your high horse?
What part of the states are you from?
None of your business.
It’s obvious that you’re trying to pick a fight.
lisa: You are just wrong. Christianity is fundamentally different from Islam, and therein lies the difference. While Islamic jihad is worldwide and a mass killer of innocent people, there is no such thing as Christian jihad. The terrorists not only dress like civilians, but hide behind civilians, on purpose, to incur civilian casualties and deceive well-meaning but gullible lefties like you to attack your own country and your own people. Shame on you!
V,
I see your new. I hope you do feel as welcome as I did a couple of weeks ago.
Sorry if I sounded harsh. Just agreed with your “longwinded” comment, but R108’s response got me thinking.
I have more faith on the reporter been a good reporter than I do on Becky Fischer.. ..nevermind, I won’t even go there
Bush Desperate To Legislate Mengele Style Torture
Phony intelligence from false confessions needed to maintain Al-Qaeda myth, sexual mutilation of children advocated by White House legal architect
The Bush administration’s desperation to legitimize and legislate torture in the face of revolt from Congress, the Senate and even Colin Powell, is an attempt to rescue the need to have a constant supply of phony intelligence obtained from torture to justify the war on terror – while the real horror of how the administration advocates sexually mutilating children under the same legal definition remains hidden from the U.S. public.
A large portion of Americans still support the use of ‘rendition’ and ‘pressure’ because they are told that the information obtained from such methods protects them from terrorists. Not only is that information crude, unreliable and often misleading – but the suffering inflicted on the victims is a horror show in comparison to the milquetoast edited version presented via the media.
The philosophy of the Bush administration’s approach to torture is encapsulated by John “torture” Yoo, professor of law at Berkeley, co-author of the PATRIOT Act, author of torture memos and White House advisor.
During a December 1st debate in Chicago with Notre Dame professor and international human rights scholar Doug Cassel, John Yoo gave the green light for the scope of torture to legally include sexual torture of infants.
Cassel: If the president deems that he’s got to torture somebody, including by crushing the testicles of the person’s child, there is no law that can stop him?
Yoo: No treaty.
Bezu, your right. The video is very concerning.
worshipping to a picture of Bush? ..isn’t that completely un-Christian?
Annsie,
America has a foriegn policy based upon America’s guiding principle of liberty, not on pleasing and appeasing the world. Liberals can’t understand the virture of liberty taking priority over world opinion. To put it plainly, America doesn’t care what you think about our commitment to liberty.
“Rude” perhaps…”man”–definitely– “little”–no
but maybe blunt would be a better way to describe it
pumkin’
When the shit hits the fan and the shrapnel starts flying, people like Annsie will come a runnin’ (after pissing in their pants)begging for shelter and protection. They always have and they always will!
But lil’ darlin’, “pumkin’” is a term of endearment… not a patronizing name.
How could you so badly misunderstand me?
I’m deeply hurt; even beginning to feel a bit melancholy.
Now see what you’ve done….{crocadile tear rolling down my cheek)
Can’t we all just get along??? sniffle..sniffle
Rich,
The equivalence is seen in the fanatical behavior.
Not in commitment to suicide, martyrdom, hate, etc.
It is the frenzied emotional manipulation and motivation that is concerning and is not Christian. Just a reminder, the comparison was first made by Becky herself.
To HG… Thank you for explaining your take on it.. And I appreciate the fact that you havent let yourself down the way Bezu has.
As I mentioned before, I’ll be getting a review copy of the movie (tomorrow I’m told) and will have Fischer herself on my show next week on Friday.
Rob on September 20, 2006 at 11:13 PM
Rob
I hope you ask her some hard questions!!
You also resort to calling me patronizing names… Does it make you feel all manly and grown up…
FROM yesterday’s Daily Show, ..
“a large proportion of male homosexual enjoy drinking each other’s urine”
said by another religious loco:
Paul Cameron of the Family Research Institute
This is the same guy that also believes gays should be branded on their faces so they could be easily recognized, much in the same way the Nazis did with the European Jews. This same guy and group based on the sexual orientation of homosexuals has advocated for their arrest, and imprisonment.
That depends on what the definition of the word christian is.
Annsie,
You complain about others calling you names, then you speak of our President in these terms?
Your post is more liberal tripe with no basis in reality. Our President is not the animal you and other lib voices make him out to be. Your and others obsession with the our President’s response to terrorists says much about world opinion. Where is the outrage over all the documented horrific acts of Sadaam and the terrorists? There is no proof of the accusations you make against President Bush. This is why world opinion has no credibility with the majority of Americans.
I ask because in surfing dailykos.com I came up with one of their ad (on the right side of the page, about half-way down)
As I said earlier, bingo. It’s a Jargon problem. Those who are a part of the faith hear these words completely differently than those outside. It may sound alarming to those outside until you understand what it is they are talking about…
Michelle Malkin and Bill O’Reilly would had love this,
….had all the references to Christianity been references to Islam instead ..had “Kids on Fire” been a Muhammad camp..
Now, compared to some other blogs, this blog is provides a huge sigh of relief. Even those of you who oppose this type of camp are measured in your response. Many of the other blogs are calling for the annihalation of all Christians who attend this type of church camp. The Democrat blogs are whole heartedly condemning every Christian as more dangerous than the most radical muslims. Church camps have been conducted in this manner for over 100 years. They have not been documented by film in this manner. Those who attended these church camps 10-20-30 years ago are now honorable, productive contributors to the peaceful and prosperous society in which we live.
“Laying down” one’s life in this context describes doing the will of God in obedience to the New Testement as a “living sacrifice”. It also relates to one having a willingness to die as the result of persecution. From the response I have seen to this film, it may be necessary to teach Christians the history of religious persection in which Christian are killed for their faith.
likwidshoe It’s an Irish phrase … when you lose the run of yourself it means that you have lost sight of your objectives…
and…also in the news….
It’s been discovered that galactic ruler Xenu brought billions of people to Earth 75 million years ago, piled them around volcanoes, and blew them uo with hydrogen bombs, sending their souls flying every which way until they landed on the bodies of living humans, where they still invisibly reside today.
This is a lie; Cassel brought it up. Got any examples of the torture of infants, except in Islamic countries?
Thanks for the exposition of all the far-left crazy propaganda, annsie!
It does call into question the objectivity of the reporter. I have never know a christian organization or people who worship the President.
That’s not to say it can’t happen.
Congress and the Senate are not even close to revolting. Just watch and see what happens.
We don’t need phony intelligence to justify the war on terror. We are not trying to justify but rather to enlighten. We are just because our cause is just. In light of 9-11 and other terrorist murders, justice demands our action in order to protect Americans and our libeties. We do not need the world to agree with what is right in order for America to do what is right.
New here. In fact, this is my first post to a blog. I’m not a Catholic, but, as saints are, historically, some of the greatest Christians who ever lived, I think that we can look to how they professed their Christianity, with the whole of their words and actions, and glean some idea of how the power of God works. I preface that to ask, did anyone check out the link provided in the first half of these comments to the saint who is celebrated today, St. Januarius?
He led to the conversion of upwards of 5,000 people to Christianity, in the space of minutes or less, not by directly imploring them to convert, but simply because he was thouroughly converted. He sought with his full being to serve God, and so God used His servant to reach the multitudes that He loves. I have no studious knowledge of what goes on at Jesus Camp, only the clip I just saw from the MSM (I might add that typically, on blogs of this persuasion, it seems that most view anything from the MSM through a, rightful, prism of skeptism, questioning not only the omission or comission of facts in quotes presented, but also in video footage used), and the simple statement by the journalist in narrative that they have their children pray to George Bush alone leads me to easily dismiss their opinion on it as a basis for what factually goes on there. C.S. Lewis warned in his theological writings of “Christianity and” movements, whereby, instead of seeking the most authentic relationship possible through sincere service to God and, from that, serving Him in all things properly, people, purposfully or inadvertently, would seek to apply Christianity to a specific event going on in the world, or a specific political manisfestation, or psychological or philosophical movement, etc. To paraphrase Lewis, many times, Christians would perceive one of these “movements or issues” as a part of his religion, to then seeing it as the most important part, to finally coming to see his Christianity as as merely part of the “cause” because of the arguments it produces for the cause’s position. Instead of treating temporal affairs “primarily as material for obedience”, or as the backdrop, whatever the time, place, and circumstances, to serve God through mere Christianity, and thus in faith, reason,and action grow into what God intends each of us to be, many use Christianity as a means to some worldly end. For each Christian individual, this is exactly opposite of what God intends…the world is supposed to be a means to arrive at Him. Though I do not trust, ever, how the MSM might portray any Christian movement, I do suspect, though I would need more information to feel confirmed in my suspicion, that Jesus Camp, even if it is intended to be a purely Christian movment, is actually one of the “Christianity and” movements that Lewis alludes to. Part of any child’s maturation into adulthood, those children included, is the determination of truth from falsehood. If any of them continue to sincerely seek to know and to serve God, to the extent that they do, God will remove the error and illusion of their upbringing and stregthen it wherein laid truth, because He loves every one of us equally and desires completely for us to know Him, and deception is no part of God. Regardless, if every Christian were to follow the example of St. Januarius-absolute service to God and availability to be used by God to His purpose, no matter what is required-instead of attempting to use God to our purpose, then the flood of sincere conversions would undoubtably be enormous, and the peace and joy of so many unfortunate peoples’ souls would be a wonder to behold, no matter the condition of the world that served as the backdrop. I am sorry if this was too longwinded or ineloquent; I am not a great communicator. Take care.
COOL
aNON: The funny part is that the exact same outcome would happen if we dropped Mark naked with a Bible into Baghdad.
“worshipping to a picture of Bush”..? ..isn’t that completely un-Christian?
Hey Bezu i`m lisa,as i told all of you that i`m so new to all this Computer,and net thing,July was first time.Please i have lost yesterday`s site NAME and can`t seem to know how to get back to Admin,so could you tell me the site/name?
Robert you are doing it again, being a hipocrate and a double standard. I have seen the video for the first time and was shocked,as i never thought this type of Brain washing will ever happen in the WEST.The same behavior and passion that Islamic Schools drill to their kids. They always always start mild and basic,talking about love of their Religion and Prophets,but when they are older some take the extreme road.you cannot become extremist unless you are taught how to love your religion.
This is the SAME thing the west contradicts Islam for drilling their kids ,only to turn round and do the same.Please don`t say “it is not the same” because it is and it is only the BEGINING.Kids are not terrorists but when they become older then who knows!
You say they have the right to do it. But do you agree with it?.There is no difference in giving your life for a cause which has only ONE meaning = DYING in the process of killing some one else WITH YOU,ANd taking some ones life by sacrificing yours in the process.
Her phrase has been said by some Muslim mothers about leting their children lay their lives for Religion.
This prooves that every human being have the ability and mind to react the same way when push comes to shove,EVEN YOU!.If anyone hurt my kids, i will hurt them, and if some one kills my kids or member of my family i will kill them (unless accidently,but will not accept the excuse from Israelis,as every time they kill a child they claim it was an accident).So we can sit here in the west protected and criticize these people who kill for reveng,because it is not our loved ones.Look at 9 11 the whole country went to war because they lost fellow country men,so that is the same as an indivisual who does not have a country to do it for them.
aNON:
Guess what? They are called madrassas, and there are thousands of them in the Islamic world, turning out real terrorists who will actually go to war, not metaphorically, like these kids. Not only that, but they have an infrastructure that supports them; in some cases, a nationwide political and religious infrastructure, unlike this country…
Why don’t you know this?
The little Irish lasse is soundin’ a wee bit cacophonous; like a deafening, discordant, ear-piercing howl
I’ll be needin’me a headache power now.
YOU completely misunderstood me.
Here is what I said:
..same exact video, not filmed in Pakistan but in North Dakota.
I don’t know if you know this there’re actually some good non-terrorist, peace loving Muslims, specially here in the United States.
HG, now I am embarrassed!
I wind-bagged again and then read your post. I really am sorry about that; sometimes what I want to say, I cannot say succinctly and feel I am being clear. It is a defect in how I communicate in print, but I will try to be more succinct, with varying success, I am sure. I didn’t take you to be harsh, but, by all means, you can be if you wanted and I would not discount you. I’d rather true reason, true emotion, and the combo, than PC blah-ity, blah, blah. Now I will go mow. No more books from me for now! 
Actually I am not trying to start a fight.
Well, if you really want to know annsie, the answer is that I don’t know how to answer your question. I’ve lived for more than a year in six different states and have spent my entire life moving about for one reason or another. I don’t feel that I can say that I “am from” any one single part of America. Some days I feel like I am a southernor while other days I feel like I am an east coaster while still other days I feel like I am a mid-westerner.
Why did you ask to begin with?
To Bezu fache..from the Da Vinci code…. You are a rude little man..
Verisimilitudinous, I am glad you read the link.
This post was should have been more about what Verisimilitudinous was talking about instead a bunch of you started discussing things totally inrelated and trading insults. I wish people would have comments germane to the topic.
MORE of Pastor Becky Fischer’s words:
Oh my God!!!
I agree with dave…….
I’m melting….melting…..melting….
Bezu: Don’t tell Dave about the Saudi schools…
So, you’re the commissar now? Sounds like they are finding their own way, but it doesn’t agree with what you think their way should be. Now opens the door to totalitarianism.
Those who don’t follow your way shall be imprisoned. That’s the next step, after imposing your ideology. Very good, commissar.
Just calling on you to be consistent. You are much more excited about this excuse to be anti_Christian than anything else I have ever heard you preach against. Notice I didn’t say it made anything OK.
the FIRST one making comparison among Muslims extremist and Christians at “Kids on Fire Camp” is Fischer herself.
Some would argue she’s to some extent seeking to mold her camp after those extreme youth Madrassa and camps in Pakistan, Palistine and other places in the Muslim word
She seems to admire what is done in the extreme religious camps of the Muslim word and want to mold hers after them.
Do you not concur?
Yeah, words do mean things. To the Christian, they have been the same words in the same book and have meant the same thing for 2000 years
I understand why such language sticks out to you in this age of Islamic terrorism, but this is nothing new in the Christian jargon. Just trying to explain it to those that aren’t familiar with it…
Awesome, I’m very interested in that.
V,
Nothing to be embarrassed about here. Nobody even knows who you are. Besides you’re doing fine. Stick around it gets very interesting around here.
HERE’S the official movie trailer for “Jesus Camp”:
“..I pledge alligience to the Christian flag”
Were there a similar camp in America for Islamics, there SHOULD be outrage… there is a vast difference. One religious group has a history of carrying out massive terrorist attacks in this country. The other does not.
There is NO equivolence.
That should be “…radical Muslims…”
oh, man.
Now I can’t get that picture out of my head!
Annsie,
You’re welcome.
To HG, I did not intend to come across as a sermon. In the context of the original subject of this thread, and taking up what I thought to be Joe Miller’s reason for linking to an explanation on who St. Januarius was-an example of the power of actual Christianity as God intended it-I went on to contrast what seems to me to be difference in Jesus Camp from true fundamental Christianity. I am cautious to say that the camp is false definitively because I would need more information, and much more importantly, because, at best, I am a fallen Christian and so not wise enough to make strong judgments about what is true or false Christianity or to what degree some particular movement is tainted by religious fallacy. My opinion, if I had children, is strong enough that I would not send them there. No offense taken HG, and I hope I did not offend. But I do think, for this particular subject and thread of comments, that my post was relevant to the matter. If I post on other topics, you will see that while I won’t restrain from making my points from my moral view, it will be appropriate to that subject on which I post. Again, I meant no offense.
To Joe, thanks for the link; it’s powerful to consider what true Christianity can bring about. I hope that I will find my way back.
To Robert108, thanks for the welcome! There is definitely a fundamental difference between Christianity and Islam. By looking at the text of the Qu’ran itself, along with the the Hadiths, and then with the commentaries and jurisprudence produced by relevant imams and scholars throughout its existence, it is impossible to dismiss the probability,and historically, the actuality, that its followers can find religiously backed prescription for proactive violence against non-believers as well as, at the very least, a spiritual right to dominate them. With Christianity, no such reasonable understanding of the Bible can lead to similar actions. No accounting of Christ’s words can render such a result, nor the apologetics that follow after the Gospels. I will not say that there has never been a Christian scholar, philosopher, or clergyman whose statements or writings have not led to attrocities commited in the name of Christianity, but I will say that, if you go back to the words of Christ and the subsequent chapters that follow in the New Testament, no such account of the attrocities can be logically defended or confirmed to be of Christian origin. Heinous acts commited in the name of Christianity are, along with being simply evil, additionally an abuse of true Christianity. Unfortunately, the attrocities commited in the name of Islam can be directly connected to the Qu’ran as prescriptive.
But finally, as concerns Lisa’s comments, if my suspicions about how Jesus Camp operates are true, then a greivious wrong is being done to those children- not the teaching of Christianity, which I think is absolutely righteous, but the teach of a thing which is not Christianity, but being called so. If that is the case, it is the duty of Christians to seek to correct it, if it is correctable, or to seek its peaceful abolition, not only to protect those children and to correct the instructors, but, with equal importance, to make certain that all Christians and non-Christians alike are not misled to think that what is being practiced there is authentic Christianity. Now, as far as 911 and so on goes, while I do not think America is completely innocent in all of its actions throughout all time, it is a great error to think the uprisings among Islam is an attack on the West due to actual acts of injustice that may be laid at the West’s feet. It is an attack on the West due to its supposed spiritual inferiority as kaffir, coupled with the religious right and duty, given by Islam, to subdue the entire planet for Allah, by any means necessary. You can be sure that, were Islam to utterly dominate the world, the violence would not stop; some Muslims are not Muslim enough, as their blood shed by other Muslims and the history we live through clearly demonstrates Whether we like it or not, whether we can accept it or not, and as history warns us, we are in a Holy War.
Verisimilitudinous,
Your sermon would be better suited for a religous blog or church service. No offense.
aNON:
In the sense that the woman wants the same fervor and dedication to saving our world that the radical Muslims have to destroy it, yes.
In terms of any similarity between the actions of “radical” Christians and radcal Muslims, no.
oh, man.
Now I can’t get that picture out of my head!
..it remind me of a scene of the WWII series “Band of Brothers” I saw on HBO: an American soldier running right in front of a multitude of German soldiers and the German soldiers been so shock they couldn’t manage to shoot him.
..I think the same would probably happen to the Muslum extremist in Iraq, lol.
This is another one of those new-age charismatic movements that differs from Christianity. They’re caught up in “speaking in tongues” and a “second baptism” and that sort of thing. Those are not Biblical teachings. The apostles originally spoke in tongues on a few occasions, but they weren’t spouting off gibberish like today’s modern charismatics do. They spoke in their language and others heard it in their own language. And every time they did so, it was to glorify God, not themselves.
Then there’s this “second baptism” of the Holy Spirit that they say is separate from regeneration through salvation. That flies in the face of scripture as well. What these people are doing is chasing around the Holy Spirit to try to build themselves up, because they are trying to claim new “gifts” from God that others have not achieved. But the Bible says that the Holy Spirit will NOT testify of himself, but point to Jesus. That’s a part of scripture that charismatics and wackbags like this want no part of.
As an aside, let me point out that when a wacko starts acting in the name of Jesus, Christians line up around the block to declare his heresy and say that they’re NOT a Christian. Try to find the Muslims doing that after a beheading, a convenient new hadith, or fatwa.
V,
Well then get back up. The Christians ability to judge is based not only upon empowerment, but truth also.
No matter how far we have fallen, and we often do, we can always get back up.
It is what it is: a sick distortion of Christianity.
There is ‘no’ justification to excuse Becky Fischer’s provocatively incendiary words nor is there any theological (Biblical)basis for their rationalization.
It’s an “in your face” “see we can produce martyrs too” sopomoric effort ( I think directed at muslims)to scare people into believing that there is significant “potential” for The U.S. to create an army of violently radical religious wackos too.
Besides that, Fischer’s a “headline grabber” and an opportunist looking for a quick buck and she’s using religion to do it.
I thought this was the best post of the thread from Verisimilitudinous;
V is at least giving Fischer the benefit of the doubt. i.e. that Fischer’s just a misguided but nevertheless sincere christian who’s doing the wrong thing for the wrong reason.
Heh, Annsie, do you have red hair by chance?
DJC: No idea; I never had one, so I don’t miss it.
Europeans are beginning to see Americans as a terrorists…
What a world I live in! Where those who go after Islamic theocracies hell bent on getting WMDs are the terrorists. Where those who go after people like Hussein and Mahmoud Ahmadinejad are “the danger” in the world.
Europeans are stuck in a Chamberlain sense of mind. Chamberlain was wrong. Europeans are wrong.
Liberty? Good god… America is losing the run of itself…You should care….A lot of Americans are anti war… Should your government not listen to them?
Christian,Muslim and Jewish zionism are the most dangerous.Notice all of the extremists have nothing to do with religion but use it to camoflage their anger and idiology(not religious one)Like Atta of 9-11 he did not even pray,had girlfreids,drank,so as the others,so how could they do what Islam tells them not to do? Reall Muslims should not take any ones life including theirs unless to deffend them selves from being attacked or invaded as in war.
As all 3 books teach some form of violence, but people only choose to act them when it suites them.
Rob writes:
Are you going to tell her to murder all economic centrists or State employees? Have her pray to a poster of Milton Friedman and recite verses from Ayn Rand?
Remember the television images of young Muslim children dancing in the street after 9/11? They “chose” that form of Islam just as much as these children are “choosing” Christianity.
I sympathize with your POV Rob (I plan on raising my children to be vegans and animal welfare activists), but we’re talking about two different things. Telling your daughter why she should be a conservative is a helluva lot different from brainwashing her into belief in an afterlife (and all the other horrible, irrational and potentially dangerous things they’re learning at this camp).
If this camp were run by Scientologists and not Christians, we’d all be pissed. We need to recognize that faith is always dangerous.
Thanks for your respones regarding my question as to whether you believed that your government were really going after terrorists or whether it was just an excuse to exploit these third world countries… Another question,,, I am from Ireland and we have terrorists called the I.R.A…. Do you think America would be within its right to occupy Ireland and root out the terrorists involved?? Or is it just Third world countries with Oil… Did any of you guys hear propaganda? Thats what your president uses to frighten you guys into agreeing with war…. I hope u guys wake up..And insulting Europeans isnt the way around it… We have a clearer view that you guys as we are not caught up in the war on terror as you are. I am not trying to aienate you..I would really like you to think for yourselves instead of listening to propaganda…No need to jump on everyone that disagrees with you… Blind faith is a dangerous thing. Just keep and open mind guys.. Not a lot to ask
Not even close to any story. When you stop quivering in fear of the “Christian Jihadists”(a woman and a few children), you might want to remember to be ashamed for the hate you are preaching in your ignorance. I consider you and those like you to be far more dangerous than this women and her students.
FUNNY how an ad before it for a book is titled: “Religion=Madness? Letter to a Christian Nation” by Sam Harris
Rob108
OKy doky…R—do you know what happened to all the gravatars?
I don’t know that I’ve seen a more active comment thread about this film anywhere else on the blogosphere, what a riot!
Regarding Becky Fischer’s comments, she said:
Lets take a step back and breathe for a moment. This is classic evangelical language dating as far back as Christ himself, “Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends.” Or “You will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me.” Or consider Paul the Apostle’s language: “If you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.” Or “Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry.”
The language of death and dying in Evangelicalism is first metaphorical, referring to what we consider to be spiritual things. On another level, though, it’s literal. As Christ said, there is no higher honor that do die for a friend. And this is sometimes what happens to missionaries … they give their lives up as martyrs, not suicides, not bombers. TO conflate the entire history of Christianity into an equation where fervent Penteocotals = militant muslims is, frankly, ignorant.
Regarding the camo and face paint, what isn’t clear in the clip footage you’ve seen is that this is a skit, or “human video” acted out at a church months before the camp at a church in Lee’s Summit, Missouri. This is a dance presentation that the children have choreographed to song. Yes, it’s militaristic, yes there’s camo. Yes, there’s face paint. But it’s a dramatic presentation!
Let’s not confuse our categories here. Kids dancing in a choreographed musical routine do not equal children being trained to shoot a moving target with an AK-47.
I have seen the whole film, and I’ve taken notes on it (I’ve virtually transcribed the whole thing). I am not personally comfortable with the camp activities, and I have several points of disagreement with Becky Fischer’s methodology and her theology, and I really, really don’t like the fact that kids like Levi are being goaded into public ministry at far too early an age.
But I also don’t like the fact that Ewing and Grady–perhaps unaware of their biases–have served up a highly biased presentation. It is nowhere near as even-handed and objective as Magnolia and others would have you believe.
If you’re interested in my reviews on the subject, I have a couple articles:
Regards,
Rich
BlogRodent
I covered this on my college radio show tonight. I’ll give you a link as soon as it’s up!
Well said !!!!
I concur completely.
LIkwik.. I live in the real world and and comunicate out side my Space.As a non Muslim who sees and Judge i could not be Blind by BIASM like your self.Racist against who???,against my self? or maybe you think you are Nostradamos.
YOU must have memory problem too,cheecky of you to say “TIT for TAT,and”action of long dead people.ISN`T THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT YOU HAVE BEEN DOING? bringing long dead people like the Pope did and Slandering a long dead Man? isn`t history is what is causing all this problem
You are wrong and i am right in the case of Hollywood,only a few films portrays Natives to be good.Hey how many John wayn moveis have you seen?
Did any of my accusations made you feel Guilty or ashamed?Do you think the Hollocust should be commemorated???? cause it is in the Past.were you have a great example of a hypocrite,you may quote the past but others cannot.For these reasons you talk from you A.S cause you don`t read history or rather read sanitised version of it.
The past is important as the present and the future,so people like you think twice before they open their lazy mouth.Every act has it`s reason whether wrong or right.there are people in the world suffering because of Injustice while we sit on our A.ses eating pop corn and watching Jerry springer.
Unfortunatly isn`t this what America did after 9-11 a TIT for TAT action against the wrong country ? correct me if i am wrong.Or only the Christiandom is allowed to practise TIT_TAT?
what i made are not excuses but FACTS and people should know.Other wise every murderer can go unpunished so no fingers are pointed.
If a problem needs solving you have to start from the begining not the Middle.I am not saying that these nutters should have done what they did,but we have to understand why,so we try to avoid another problem.Every human has his character and fuse and react differently, but as i said before
“If your house is made of GLASS do not thow stones at other people`s”
” when you smell of Shit don`t ask who farted”
Denial just isn’t a river in Egypt.
V: You made some great points. Welcome. There is a fundamental(pun intended) difference between Christianity and Islam, and that applies to the radicals in both camps, as well. This is what is wrong with what Rosie said. It’s simply not true, on any level.
What is this lisa character going on about? She sure seems hell-bent on defending Islamic terrorism by excusing it by the actions of the past.
She has no case for trotting out such blatant tit-for-tat excuses and it appears that she is too blinded by religious ferver to see this simple truth. Not to mention her blatant disregard for reality. The “midia and Hollywood” always portray “Native Americans as the Bad agressors”? That’s news to me. Usually it’s the other way around.
lisa is a lost soul. You can’t reason with such a racist and unreasonable creature. They make up excuses and refuse to take responsibility for their actions. It is always someone else’s fault. And if that doesn’t work, it’s the actions of people long since dead. This is what Muslims do. They point their fingers at everybody else rather than accept that their religion has some serious problems.
Rob i am more ashamed of what the Christian west did up to a 100 years ogo (there are still people alive who can teach you about America`s history )We seem to explain terrorism as only killing some one else by meansof a Bomb,Why?the word existed before Islamic extreamism became wide spread.You know why? because if you think that it only happened after the Unacceptable invasion of Palestine,by the same people who were being GASED,STERVED,and EXPERIMENTED on by the Christian TERRORIST not MUSLIMS,so every one has their time yeh?!!.Only to turn round and inflict it on other people.So realy ALL these WARS are for LAND and not religion but religious verses are used to try and strengthen their point.
1:how was America created? does GENOCIDE ring any bells?
2:How and why were Blacks SLAVES treated when they refused to CONVERT to Christianity ?.Hung on trees and photoes of their liveless bodeis were sent as post cards to White people`s family and freinds.
another barbaric way was to cut them into peices and feed them to the HUGS.You know i would rather dei being blown up instantly than be tourtured ,because it takes a monster and an animal like White supremists to watch a person kicking for their life.
Killing is killig ,which method you use does does not make you less or more civilised.Only difference is that one kills for COLOUR and RACE ,while the other kills because he would not be Occupeid and his Home and land stolen and for their basic human needs.Terror is experiencing it and KNOWING that you are going to dei in the Hands of a couple of CHRISTIAN fanatics using the BIBLE to preach segregation and Hatred :KKK+.
Joseph franklin from civilised kentucky murderd in a terrorist act 18 Black people = 2 kids and was sent by KKK, did the state inprison the KKK leaders / NO.Till now a lot of white people don`t send their kids to mixed race schools.KKK say they represent Christianity and their values, well just like Muslim extremists.
Edgar Ray killed black children and was found NOT GUILTY till now.
Midia and Hollywood`s roll in teaching their children Leis about their Barbaric Past,cause always they portray Native Americans as the Bad agressors and Whites as the Innocent fighting to defend their LAND!!!.
crime and terror when blacks were accused for crimes they did not commit,and the state had no problem producing fake witneses.these crimes usualy were comited by Terrorist RED NECKS, but hey they need the votes.
Brothers in crime the white south African terrorists who masscerd hundreds of thousand Blacks to take lands.
The famous Spanish INQUISITION
was Created for CATHARS who are people who held a different religious veiws in France.
And No, the CRUSADERS did NOT Massacre Muslims only , but CHRISTIAN ARABS and Jews.It was not their Land or Race and had no right to it .THey were terrorism at it`s best.they are Europeans and the middle east are Arabs with different religions.Geographicaly the area is ARAB.The land`s rightfull owners were the CANNANITES who were Masscerd and wiped out by the Jews who originaly are from UR (Iraq).TILL now there are Arab famileis with the surname CANNAN and not a single Jew or CHristian .
So not when Terrorism suets us we practice it and when others use it we pretend we are new to it.Lets sort our own school shootings and serial killers who murder for the sadistic reasons ,i think the victimes have had 1st hand terror experience.
lisa kids, As a non Muslim who sees and Judge i could not be Blind by BIASM like your self.
It would better serve us if you would explain how I am “be Blind by BIASM”, whatever that is supposed to mean.
Racist against who???,against my self? or maybe you think you are Nostradamos.
How cute. To refresh your memory, you brought up race. Remember? You said, and I quote,
Why else would you say that?
YOU must have memory problem too,cheecky of you to say “TIT for TAT,and”action of long dead people.
No. That’s what you’re doing. It’s ironic because you complain about it in one breath, then advocate such measures in the next.
ISN`T THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT YOU HAVE BEEN DOING? bringing long dead people like the Pope did and Slandering a long dead Man?
Can you show me where I’ve done that? Thanks.
isn`t history is what is causing all this problem
No. It’s people like you excusing such actions and those who commit them.
You are wrong and i am right in the case of Hollywood,only a few films portrays Natives to be good.Hey how many John wayn moveis have you seen?
You’re backpeddling.
Did any of my accusations made you feel Guilty or ashamed?
No. Why would feel guilty about actions I had no part of and actions that were committed a good time before I was even born? Why the hell would I beat myself up over things I had no part of? That makes no sense.
On the converse, why are you trying to accuse me of anything? Why are you trying to make me feel guilty and ashamed? What’s wrong with you? Why would you do that to me?
Do you think the Hollocust should be commemorated????
Good grief. Yes.
cause it is in the Past.were you have a great example of a hypocrite,you may quote the past but others cannot.
What are you even talking about? Talk about the past, fine. But don’t beat someone up over things that they didn’t do.
Do you always confuse the present with the past?
For these reasons you talk from you A.S cause you don`t read history or rather read sanitised version of it.
Now you’re talking out of your ass. You’re just making shit up here.
The past is important as the present and the future,so people like you think twice before they open their lazy mouth.
More shit talking.
Every act has it`s reason whether wrong or right.there are people in the world suffering because of Injustice while we sit on our A.ses eating pop corn and watching Jerry springer.
Um..okay? (You watch Jerry Springer? Heh. No wonder you argue the way you do.)
Unfortunatly isn`t this what America did after 9-11 a TIT for TAT action against the wrong country ? correct me if i am wrong.
You’re wrong. We declared a war against terrorism after 9/11. We have thus far invaded the right countries and we have more to go. The war against terrorism is in no way limited to those who committed 9/11. REPEAT: The war against terrorism is in no way limited to those who committed 9/11. You should know this already because there has been five years of non-stop talk about the subject so I’ll repeat it again: The war against terrorism is in no way limited to those who committed 9/11.
Or only the Christiandom is allowed to practise TIT_TAT?
“Christiandom”? Where’s that? I’d like to visit to see what it’s like.
what i made are not excuses but FACTS and people should know.Other wise every murderer can go unpunished so no fingers are pointed.
What are you even talking about?
“If your house is made of GLASS do not thow stones at other people`s”
Well,..I am not a suicide bomber, so therefore I can throw those stones.
I am not a religious fanatic hell bent on killing the “infidels”, so I can throw those stones as well.
I am not a genocidal dictator, so I can heft big boulders at that one.
So what were you saying again?
” when you smell of Sh..t don`t ask who FA…d”
That sounds like one you should apply to yourself.
verisimi…either you logically know the real reason for this outrage by muslims and just want want to turn a blind eye to life,reality and facts.The only people who know why they all the terrorist acts are happening are the the Muslims,both who do the attacks and the ones who don`t.
Surly you know Islam is not 20/30 yrs old? and the QURAN HAS BEEN READ AND UNDERSTOOD BY ALL MUSLIMS.So why now?.Remember HADITH are equivilant to the Bibles, as in many contraditive second and third eye witneses.Not all Muslims beleive each other`s Hadith,only logic can be used on SOME,yet like the Bible in the way thatsome things are accepted by different sects.But the QURAN is accepted by all Muslims even though some laws and practises were done at tha time as the Norm.ie: very young marraiges,Stoning Adultrouses,untrue forced conversions to Islam of innocent people…Some of these practises are still practised in a few Islamic countreis and in and by NONIslamic ones too :Hindus in India that marry their children as young as 6&7 but not to be Entered till 12.These laws ALSO appear and were practised by Jews and early Christians,as ChristiANS FOLLOW THE OLD TEST that mean they beleive in it.Religion is not need to practice Barbarism ,history prooves it.
Why then did all these terror acts not happen berfore?the laws have always been known.Yes Muslims aswell as Christians and Jews beleive the other is going to hell if they do not convert to their own.It is preachrd by Fanatic clerks,pastures,and Rabbies.9 11 happened after the intifada and as usual America vitoeing a majority UN discion against Israel.these people had to sit infront of their Tvs and watch Israel snippering on the head or the Heart children throwing stones at Mighty Tanks.I think it has been brewing for some time and thanks to the manipulation of AIPAC who are buying our support to fulfill their Idiology.Our security is on the line to please them.
As for Robert Fisher is not converting NOW as she has no one to,but is training these children to become exactly what we blame Muslims to do.Mind you it is not new in Either Israel to teach children to Hate while critisising Palestinians for doing it.I have vedeos taped from a documentary under cover by ITV?BBC showing Jewish school children on a bus trip singing songs about hatred and throwing Palestinians to the sea and KILLING them with their teacher smilling and conducting them. Another one recently during the Lebanon war after the terrorist attack on Qana,photoes of Jewish children made to sign Missile Bombs with things like :”withlove to the children of Lebanon,and”enjoy this” i think.
Especially your faith in your extreme diet and “animal welfare activism”, eh?
likwidshoe
Circumstantial evidence overwhelmingly proves that Lisa is definitely “NOT” a “non-muslim.”
But she trys to convince us that she is a non-muslim because she mistakenly believes it will make her views more palatable and acceptable to us.
It’s the same tactic deployed by cadillac liberals ;especially at SA.
They pretend to be conservative or republican and moronically believe they can fool and persuade folks to change their perceptions when every single word they write, absolutely reeks of liberal democratic talking points and does just the opposite.
Also, adherents of that liberal philosophy (Readers of Daily Kos etc,) are exhorted (by their demented icons) to apply thses tactics on “right wing blogs”.
It’s part of their strategy of “misdirection” and confusion.
So when I see it (and it’s easily recognizable) a hammer it relentlessly!!
It’s very interesting to me to see the reaction people are having to ‘Jesus Camp’. Just my own personal opinion here, but if you want to talk about extremist Christianity, you should really check into Westboro Baptist Church in Topeka, Kansas whose notorious pastor Fred Phelps is truly infringing on the rights of others in the name of God. Another great example of this radical Christianity, not just an evangelical ministry who is out to “spread the Gospel”, is Spirit One Christian Center in Wichita, Kansas that is led by pastor Mark Holick. Mark Holick was kicked out of the Rhema Ministerial Association International where he trained to be a pastor for refusing to act in a civic capacity that did not infringe on the rights of others in his community. He even went so far as to trespass on abortion clinic grounds and was arrested for his blatant disrespect of the law which he called his congregation to and labeled it a “Rescue”. These so called churches lead a very tight knit community which wreak of Cultism. It is not uncommon to attend a service at one of these churches and to hear the bashing of every other faith that is not that specific churches or of people that have decided to leave the church. It is also interesting to note that pastor Mark Holick calls his congregation to serve him more than serving God, all the while hiding under clever sayings and witty words that make it seem like devotion to God. In the end, this devotion to the human pastor has caused many of the past congregation to face marital problems and family break ups.
I have learned that a good church is one where you can attend and never hear the leaders in that church slandering other faiths or churches or peoples. I read recently, and I think it was Rosie O Donnell who said it, that radical Christians are no worse than Extremist Muslims. This comment was attacked by The American Family Association. However, I think Rosie has it right. Someone can be passionate about their faith and free to share that faith without infringing on the God given rights of others. When people cross that boundary, they are no longer operating in the love of God. It is also my experience that the God that the Bible talks of is a gentleman and has never forced Himself on anyone. So anyone claiming to be spreading The Word that is shouting it at people that don’t want to hear it is really not operating within the mannerisms that God portrays in the Bible. As far as Fred Phelps, well, you know you have infringed on the rights of others when you have other Christian politicians trying to get bills into effect that would limit the churches ability to protest.
I believe you can be radical for Jesus without being a Radical Christian. Radical Christians are the kind who go around bombing abortion doctors and clinics and who stand outside porn shops screaming at people and telling them they are going to hell. I don’t find that there is any love in actions like these, even if the people they are trying to get to are sinners. But then I have to ask……who isn’t a sinner? And if it isn’t the nature of a sinner to sin…..then I suppose dogs weren’t meant to bark and the wind wasn’t meant to blow. It is funny how people get so caught up in the righteousness of God once they find Jesus that they begin making God’s righteousness their own. Not putting on the righteousness of God as they are called to, but rather being self righteous and proud in themselves and therefore end up condemning everyone that isn’t in their thought processes. And that just simply is not how it works. Sin, forgiveness, and all things faith related are a two way street. And every true radical Christian turns their Christianity into a one way street that they try to force everyone else down. Which takes me right back to the fact that……God is, always has been, and always will be a true gentleman. And He expects nothing less from those that decide to follow after Jesus.
Bob writes:
Prove it.
Get a grip folks. This is a propaganda hit piece on Christians. The original footage was over 250 minutes. It was edited and cotrived to provoke leftists to start a persecution against Christians. The sections of the film are taken out of context and remixed to create the illusion that Pentacostals are wild-eyed jihadists. Throw in an extreem leftist, anti-Christian “Christian” from Err America to put his hate spin on it, and you have the perfect blend of Christian bashing. The film is obviously performing just as it was intended, judging from the unbalanced remarks of many who post here.
aNON: To quote Becky Fischer:
She seems to be settling for what she can get, after years of obscurity, rather than wholeheartedly endorsing the video. It is obvious from the quote that she does perceive it as anti-Christian propaganda; she is willing to put up with that in order to get publicity for her camp. Let’s tell the truth, now, OK?
aNON:
I can cherry-pick, too. I think Becky was happy to get the coverage, no matter how flawed it was. It’s the old Hollywood saying: “There is no such thing as bad publicity.” There are two things about this entire affair I find disingenuous:
One, that no one asked the makers of the video to “prove it”. Their version was swallowed whole, while the two dissenters on this blog, Julie and Bob, have been questioned rather closely and critically. Would that equal criticism had beed directed at both sides here.
Two, a highly-edited video is taken as absolute truth, and evaluations of Christians in general have been made on the basis of this highly-edited piece. It has even led to claims of “Christian jihad”, with no supporting evidence than this account, which again, is highly-edited. At least try to simulate a level playing field.
HG,
Is that kinda like the stuff one reads at DU, Koz, and MoveOn.org?
seems like Pastor Becky Fischer and the families of the three kids featured in the movie disagree with you.
Pastor Becky Fischer disagree so much so she is actually enthusiastically promoting and endorsing Jesus Camp.
..I’m sure she’s seen te final version.
Pastor Becky Fischer
You know how you get pissed off about left-wing teachers and professors? Take that, and multiply it by a billion, and you’re close to “Jesus Camp.”
Dave: Prove that it’s accurate. You assume that, and question the other side. Typical of you.
Bob: Thanks for giving the other side. I know a fair number of Fundamentalist, Evangelicals and the like, and while I often find them personally irritating, they are nothing resembling terrorists or jihadists. Reporting, especially about Christianity, is so one-sided today that we often forget that there is always another side, and that people do fake the news to serve their agenda, all the time.
ONCE again, Pastor Becky Fischer thank it does. So much so in fact she’s actually both promoting and enthusiastically endorsing the film.
..I’m sure she wouldn’t had she perceived it as anti-Christian propaganda.
You know, it really amazes me how so many people hate Jesus. But he did say “The world cannot hate you; but me it hateth, because I testify of it, that the works thereof are evil”, and “If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before [it hated] you” …so I guess if you have anything to do with Jesus, you’ll be hated too. Oh well!
Yeah, that’s through blogads. I don’t know how Kos handles his advertising, but for SA all advertising goes through Pajamas Media. They have a contract for advertising space. I get a set fee and they choose the ads (though I do, as I mentioned before, have veto power over any ads I should find objectionable).
Robert, it could well be that I’m not well-versed on the terminology Christians use in their sermons and teachings these days and that is why the footage in this video disturbs me.
Still, I had always associated Christian teachings with peace. Turn the other cheek type stuff, not kids dressed up as soldiers, calling themselves warriors and talking about laying down their lives. If these kids are “soldiers of God” then who are they fighting against? Non-believers?
That troubles me in a profound way.
Regardless, I’m going to try and get Fischer on SAB’ers talk radio this week and see if we can’t clear some of this stuff up. If she doesn’t want to do that I’ll see if I can at least ask her a few questions as this obviously seems like a hot topic for a lot of people.
Robert, for crying out loud I wasn’t saying that the group should be closed down. I was just saying that what was portrayed in the video made me uncomfortable.
I was offering criticism, not calling for censorship. Don’t be so quick to jump to conclusions.
Cool Dave.
As I mentioned before, I’ll be getting a review copy of the movie (tomorrow I’m told) and will have Fischer herself on my show next week on Friday.
Oh wow Free, c’mon. While I find what’s going on in this camp disturbing, let’s not go off the deep end with the Nazi comparisons. I didn’t hear anyone in the clip calling for genocide.
Quit with the knee-jerk reactions and think before you type.
Just to let everyone in the thread know, I talked with Becky Fischer’s media people today. They’re sending me out a copy of Jesus Camp to view/review and we’re working on setting up an interview with Fischer for SAB’ers Talk Radio some time next week (hopefully).
Robert, I have no fear of Christians. I find the warrior/soldier/lay down your life stuff to be both disturbing and possibly dangerous.
I don’t react that way out of an anti-Christian bias. I am, at worst, ambivalent toward Christians and frankly spend a lot of time on this blog defending Christianity from the sort of knee-jerk anti-Christian types you apparently think I am.
Brent, I’ve already got you blogrolled and on my reading list. We ND bloggers gotta stick together. All viewpoints are welcome on Say Anything, but since it is politics on the internet things do get a little heated (as you can already see from this thread). We all get a little hot under the collar, but there aren’t many regulars here on SA that I wouldn’t sit down for a beer with.
Joe,
I understand that, but is the warrior/soldier/lay down your life stuff really necessary? I think it promotes a militant frame of mind that, frankly, can be dangerous.
Robert,
I think calling kids “soldiers of god” comes dangerously close to teaching conversion by violence. Soldiers do violence. I know this lady probably isn’t teaching these kids to threaten non-believers, but I find the terminology she’s using to be disturbing.
I think that’s over the top based on just the short bit of film.
But as robert says, if you think this is child abuse feel free to call child protection services. I think they’d probably laugh at you though.
Wow, hysterical much free?
Honestly, do you really think the left/right breakdown is between folks like Becky Fischer and the defeatist Democrats?
Get a grip.
Does freedom not extend to passing our beliefs on to our children? Are you suggesting that I wait until my little girl is an adult before telling her my beliefs about capitalism and limited government?
Honestly, Free, how much caffeine have you had tonight? You’re coming off like a deranged, reactionary twit.
Uh…Robert? The lady herself, in the video above, says that she’d like her kids to lay down their lives for their religion like the folks in Palestine do.
I find that very disturbing.
Spaghetti, talk of laying down one’s life for religion smacks disturbingly of martyrdom to this outside observer.
I don’t know guys. Words mean things, and I think its dangerous to use these terms and phrases that have militant connotations.
I’m not saying they can’t do it, it’s just not anything I’m comfortable with.
Brent, first let me say welcome to a fellow North Dakotan. Not sure if you’ve commented here before or not, but I always like to say hi to my ND readers.
This is the first I’ve heard of this movie, or even Fischer’s group. I aim to find out more about what’s going on with it, if I can.
Hope you keep reading SA.
Free, the rest of us are discussing this and somewhat disagreeing with one another rationally. You’re carrying on like an excited child with too much Mountain Dew in his system.
How many times is Free going to get his feelings hurt, leave for a little while, and then come back?
Anon, I don’t have any hand in deciding who advertises here. I have a contract with Pajamas Media, and they run the ads. I can veto ads I don’t like, but I don’t negotiate for advertising.
The Jesus Camp folks are providing me with a review copy of their movie, and Fischer has agreed to an interview with me set for next week.
Spaghetti:
I just got confirmation that the interview will happen next Friday. Should be fun/interesting.
I’ll also be getting the movie on Thurs. so I should have a review up Friday or Mon. at the latest.