I’m here. But I don’t have time for writing now, sorry. All I can say for now is that I AM PEACEFUL and my friends are too. Please don’t believe the liar Bush. We are no terrorists, we are completely innocent. The terror comes from another direction, you know which. Trust your inner feelings! Your leaders are liars, the truth is buried but still alive. THINK! Cui bono, that is the question, and the answer. Free yourself and live in peace. America disarm your soldiers, we are not your enemies. God is the same, for you and us.

Abdul Hamid vomits, All I can say for now is that I AM PEACEFUL and my friends are too. Please don’t believe the liar Bush.

What are you talking about?

We are no terrorists, we are completely innocent.

Please, no jokes.

The terror comes from another direction, you know which. Trust your inner feelings! Your leaders are liars, the truth is buried but still alive. THINK! Cui bono, that is the question, and the answer. Free yourself and live in peace.

What in Sam’s Hell are you talking about?

America disarm your soldiers, we are not your enemies.

Who is not our enemies? Have you checked out the current conflicts in the world there Abdul? See a pattern by chance?

God is the same, for you and us.

Your God is Satan.

Dear Rod, I’m sorry but I don’t understand your low-brow English. It’s fine they have Internet access in the American slums now, but maybe your leaders should give you a Webster’s dictionary instead of a computer ? Please don’t take this as an insult, you are a victim of your system.

Again: what in Sam’s Hell are you talking about?

Islamic culture is many centuries old, and your nation is simply barbaric compared to us.

Islamic culture – murder, rape, killing the rape victim because she is "defiled", torture, dictatorships, stonings, brainwashing and child abuse, killing kids for Allah, insanity, riots, ignorance, clitoridectomy, molestation, slavery, beastiality, beheadings, and terrorism.

America is none of those things.

It’s not your fault. You have big weapons but no culture. The U.S. is like a drunken teenager compared to more civilized nations. Come again in 800 years.

That’s pretty bold considering that Muslim culture is about 1300 years behind eveybody else.

Robert, I’m not so sure that they were the ones who started this.  America has a long history of meddling in others’ affairs.  Like I said before, they seem to be resorting to what is in their power.  They can’t come over here and bomb us all to hell, like we’ve done to them.  We fight with our massive weapons and they fight with what weapons they have.  I think they resort to such ugly methods of violence because it’s the only way they can counter us.  Neither one is justifiable.  If we’re fighting them because they’re fighting us and they’re fighting us because we’re fighting them, then when does it all stop???  We can’t stop the existence of terrorism.  The more we meddle over there, the more we kill, the more hatred we breed from the Muslim world.  And if we can’t stop the existence of terrorists, wouldn’t it be better to put the focus on protecting ourselves from it with better national security?  (And, just to be clear, the people who are responsible for 9/11 should be brought to justice.  But we’re attacking countries, not the terrorists.)

Now it all makes sense.

I wonder what ‘other direction’ Abdul Hamid thinks the terror is coming from.

Quite possibly it is thinly-veiled anti-semitism, the famous brain-rotting disease quite common among muslims. The Middle East is replete with the vicious slander that JEWS are responsible for 9/11.

Hey, Abdul, we aren’t the ones killing each other over CARTOONS you ignoramus.

 

It’s those "down-trodden people" that I am trying to defend, not the terrorists.  I do not condone what they do.  But I don’t condone what our country has done either! 

By the way, Iraq was not where the terrorists were hiding.  Under Saddam, Iraq was a secular state that had no tolerance for religious fanatics.  Why not choose Saudi Arabia to invade if it was terrorists that we were looking for? 

Tammi: Read some US History.  Our country is basically isolationist.  We fight when provoked, for the most part.  China started its part of WWII in 1937;  Germany in 1938.  We entered the war at the end of 1941, after the Japanese attacked us.  If you read the Koran, you would discover that Islam declared war with the "infidels" a long time before the US existed.  That would make them first, in any sense of the word.  I’m dismayed at your sympathy and compassion for the terrorists, but it is something I have come to expect from lefties. 

Pursuing legal action against the 9/11 terrorists would be like us arresting all the Japanese pilots who participated in bombing of Pearl Harbor, and would be just as effective.  Wake up! 

I don’twant to communicate with idiots like you. You are the problem!

So, tammi, who is the Mullah you have submitted to? You being female gives you options. You can be a harem slave until you become pregnant.Then you will be given to a worthy husband, and bear him children till you die. Or you can be a harem slave till you become pregnant. At which point you will be executed by stoneing, because you became pregnant. There is no 3rd option.

There is too much hatred against the Muslims in this country.  The actions of a few terrorists does not make the entire Arab world terrorists.  There are radical religious groups within all societies.  We’ve got them here, too.  Since we have religious freaks over here does that makes us all freaks?  If we maintain this course of hatred and fear against the Muslims, there will be no end to the violence.  Violence breeds violence.  Our government has killed tens of thousands of innocent Arabs.  If some fringe group from over there wants to retaliate, can we blame them? 

I mean, think about it.  If you lived in a small country unable to defend itself from one of the world powers, you would use whatever resources were available to defend yourself, wouldn’t you?  I don’t advocate violence in the least.  However, Americans are far from innocent in this "War on Terror."  I’m pretty sure we terrify them…

And, all this talk about religion and politics…  This talk about the Christian inquisitions and how the Muslims are not so evolved got me thinking…  Do you think the United States somehow regressed to the times of the Christian Crusades? 

I just don’t think we have the moral majority to be the world saviours…  nor do we have the means…  And, no it wasn’t the left who cherry picked that information.  It was the administration itself.  That’s what mobilized this country to action – fear of being attacked…

And, if your argument is true about the weapons being in Syria, then this war which was touted as a complete success was a complete failure.

As for whether or not there were terrorists in Iraq…  Saddam was a megalomaniac according to your own words, according to this administration, according to the left and right.  So, we agree on that one.  However, do you really believe that a megalolmaniac such as himself would have been fine with religious fanatics/terrorists hiding out in his country?  They represent a threat to his total dominance, to his power.  Unless of course, the terrorists were submissive to him and working solely for him, which of course has no basis in fact either.  Saddam wasn’t a religious man.  Anyways, I’ve heard both sides of the argument.  But believing that Saddam would compromise his total dominance over his people just doesn’t make ANY sense.

Tammi asked:

Do you have any direct quotes leading up to the war that mention other reasons for going into Iraq?

 Why, yes I do. From a speech given by Bush on Feb 26, 2003:

The current Iraqi regime has shown the power of tyranny to spread discord and violence in the Middle East. A liberated Iraq can show the power of freedom to transform that vital region, by bringing hope and progress into the lives of millions. America’s interests in security, and America’s belief in liberty, both lead in the same direction: to a free and peaceful Iraq.

The first to benefit from a free Iraq would be the Iraqi people, themselves. Today they live in scarcity and fear, under a dictator who has brought them nothing but war, and misery, and torture. Their lives and their freedom matter little to Saddam Hussein — but Iraqi lives and freedom matter greatly to us. 

Bringing stability and unity to a free Iraq will not be easy. Yet that is no excuse to leave the Iraqi regime’s torture chambers and poison labs in operation. Any future the Iraqi people choose for themselves will be better than the nightmare world that Saddam Hussein has chosen for them.

[SNIP, SNIP]

The passing of Saddam Hussein’s regime will deprive terrorist networks of a wealthy patron that pays for terrorist training, and offers rewards to families of suicide bombers. And other regimes will be given a clear warning that support for terror will not be tolerated.

That speech and many, many, many more giving multiple reasons other than WMD can be found at <a href="http://www.whitehouse.gov/infocus/iraq/archive.html">this link</a>.

Dave, considering you chose to quote me directly, it surprises me you didn’t see the word "I" in front…

Robert, I remember quite vividly listening to Bush, Cheney, Condaliza, Rumsfield… all tell our country about the need to go to Iraq before they used their WMDs against us…  They spared few details.  I don’t remember ONE speech about any of your 15 other reasons…  Although I can say sincerely that I’m interested to know what they are.  As for the true reason for going to Iraq, I think that’s yet to be seen…  Was it for oil/money?  Was it to distract us from domestic issues?  Was it to establish military bases in the Middle East?  Was it to vindicate his father?  Was it to help the oppressed?  I mean, who the hell knows other than Bush and his administration.  I’m still waiting to see. 

And I don’t believe that the U.S. should be in charge of helping the oppressed peoples in the world.  Who gets to decide who needs help and when???  There seem to be a lot of casualties every time we get involved so I’m not sure I’d like to leave that up to our leaders alone to decide…  That’s the duty of the U.N.  If you’d like to help the oppressed peoples, revitalize the U.N. and our participation in it.

Tammi: If our religious nuts were blowing themselves up with regularity in public places, planting car bombs and roadside IEDs, you might have a point.  Since they don’t, you don’t have a point.  They attacked us(9/11, WTC ’93. Munich ’72, etc.).  If they could let us alone, we would be leaving them alone.  They started it, we are going to finish it.  Many other totalitarians have learned that lesson, and so will they.  Islam is, unfortunately, a totalitarian religion(read the Koran).  The Crusades were about driving out the Muslims who had invaded and subjugated the Holy Land.  We have progressed since then, they haven’t.

Collective-ism, everyone being equally miserable. Ain’t that special. Got to love the Borg, they give you a target rich enviroment, if nothing else.

You got no concept of anger. You have the freedom to spew your stupidity because men like me fought to give it to you. No thanks asked, none expected. Fuck you.

Tammi: Your memory is selective.  Most of the speeches were about Saddam violating the UN directives since 1991.  As far as why we went to war against Saddam, the answer should be blindingly obvious:  To finish the job we started in 1990.  Saddam had announced his intentions to run the entire Middle East, and an Iraq that is a beacon of modern civilization and an ally of the US is better than Saddam’s brutal dictatorship and takeover ambitions.  As far as helping the oppressed, the UN has never accomplished anything in this direction all by itself, so why do you keep expecting them to do it?  As far as revitalizing the UN, the President sent John Bolton.  Ultimately, the UN reflects world values, not our own, and that is how it should be.  If  we ran the whole thing, it wouldn’t really be the "United" Nations, now would it?  You don’t think we should help oppressed people of the world, but we should revitalize the UN.  Why the double standard?

If your looking for thugs in three piece suits, you don’t have to look overseas. We’ve got enough of them here. don’t get me wrong, I LOVE my country. I’m just not so fond of the people elected to represent it.

Please defend your stance on the Iraq Problem. WWII. Destroy the Nazi power structure and return Europe to a stable condition. Where is the coda to this war? Maybe and if are loose terms. Free the people from Sadaam’s grasp, we have. Install a democratic government, they have. Why are we still there? To protect "OUR" interests?

 

Rob, unfortunately I didn’t tape the president’s speeches, and I don’t like to misquote people.  How about you though?  Do you have any direct quotes leading up to the war that mention other reasons for going into Iraq?

And I agree that the U.N. is not doing its job.  (We didn’t help it any by undermining its authority before the war.)  However, the answer to that is not us stepping in and taking over…  We need the U.N. to work.  Why aren’t we interested in participating in the world community?  Who made us God?

As for Saddam, he did allow the U.N. inspectors in Iraq.  They didn’t find anything.  That’s why the U.N. did not support this war.

Robert, I know you and I will never see eye to eye on this.  You seem very willing to believe in what comes out of Washington.  However, I am not.  One could go through word for word most of the things that this administration has said, and show how later on it was proven to be untrue.  You excuse that as lacking foresight.  I see that as a blatant attempt to mislead the public.  Even the comments you made were proven to be untrue… 

And, by the way, the reason I sent such a long excerpt was to avoid you thinking that I was cherry-picking…  If you had read that excerpt with an open mind, you would have heard quite clearly the intention of the adminstration to scare the public about Iraq’s WMD.  Each speech is carefully written and each word is specifically chosen.  That speech, one of many, was meant to scare the public into war.  It obviously convinced many of you that the threat was real.  Otherwise, you wouldn’t be arguing so forcefully.

Who is?  The political class lives off of the rest of us, then has the arrogance to tell us we aren’t paying enough for the privilege of being subjected to their "programs".  They can’t make an accurate budget, so we are told that we have a budget deficit. At least this administration got the defense spending right.

Dave, as I’m sure you’ve figured out, I don’t believe in violence.  So, no, I doubt I would.  However, I can think of some Americans here that might…  especially if their families were killed by the "infidel."  But Americans haven’t really embraced that kind of violence yet.  They seem to have more fun with their guns.

As for the article itself, I tend to look at most things pertaining to religion with a skeptical eye.  I think religion is the corrupt outcome of man’s interference with spirituality. 

rod continues, No, I do not hide behind pathetic excuses. That’s Bush’s job

Oh, whatever. Great argument.

I now believe that you were projecting.

Signing off for the night,

Ohio voter for Bush.

Nice Doc Dave.  I am joining this late but I wanted to throw my 2c in…

My strongest memory of why we went to Iraq was (I hope) near-quote from one of the speeches.  It went along this line:  We will plant the seeds of Democracy in the Middle East and allow the other nations to see that it works, leading to their adopting it on their own, eventually.  

I admit it may be a summary of a speech point or a pure fabrication.  Anyone have the same memory?

But the point to me was that it was due, as Robert has well-identified already (ie; the UN sanctions, etc) and that it would take many years, a "long slog".  I wasn’t around for the Marshall Plan or for ? Japans recovery, but those took (are taking) decades!  Get a grip here, people. 

One last point that I believe ties in very well with Roberts proof.  Notice that Iran has been under the watchful eye of the UN for several years now, and they have just announced their coming out party.  Hmmm…

What I find facinating is how each side seems to have their own truth.  Each nation employs their own devices for  propaganda and the truth is that all Monothiest religions begin with the same God.  There have been since the beginning of time, those who sought to corrupt faith.  There is only one God, Allah, Yaheveh- His is the author of us all and not matter how we try to blame the other side for what those who work with "the evil one" do, we are caught in the crossfire of hatred.  They wish us to have hatred for others.  To conquer, one must first divide- how best to start with the ultimate higher power and to confuse the masses.  I believe that He is watching us now as we strive for answers and look to the wrong places for them, it is not in governments, it is not in "religions", it is not in monetary systems or forms of educations, it is not in classes, or genders or races- it is in the heart of mankind- allowing all of those who would tear us down internally and externally to have reign of our minds.  Abraham taught about one God- and that is the only place to find the answers.  Sometimes the enemy lays confortably within (and beleive me he is on both sides of this world’s problem of trouble in the Middle East).  So my friends, if you truly want a scapegoat- look to the evil one, he is the author of it all-

There’s no hate on my part…  just real concern for our country and in what direction it is heading…  By partipating in this blog, I thought that we would be able to find some middle ground.  We all seem educated enough.  However, this past week has shown me that there doesn’t seem to be a middle ground.  You believe what you believe, and I believe what I believe.  Our beliefs seem to be too much at odds.  I wish you all the best, however.  It was interesting to see how the "other half" thinks…  But like you so aptly put, I do have better things to do.

 I’m afraid that we have very little basis for conversation because you’re then operating in the territory of blind faith in a discredited position.

I watched you guys tear this girl apart and claim that that George Bush Never claimed that his biggest concern was W.M.D.s but unlike everyone one else on this blog, I remember the speaches made to congress claiming that Sadaam had nuclear capabilities and was more than willing to use them. Now we can all sit and B.S. about the good old days when Collin Powell was on-board and confirmed these stories, but he jumped ship, just like everyone else who knew the truth. Sadaam had NO WMDs, he kept those murderous bastards on a chain and kicking his butt out left the country open for the insurgents that have run-amok in that country. Why are we there again?.. to oversee thier compliance with U.N. resolutions? Time and time again I have seen people bash the U.N. What is the U.N. anyways but our ideals pressed upon the rest of the world. Maybe those poor bastards don’t want democracy. Maybe they’re happy with a boot on thier neck. Who am I to tell them otherwise. And if you ask "Who Am I"  I’m just a John Q. Taxpayer just like you.

 Are you sure your not a woman?

Who the fuck is this rod shitbag, and why should anyone care what it says?

rod: In answer to your question about the original theme of the thread, Tammi ‘jacked it.

I’ve got an idea… How about we work on unemployment. No, gotta war to win. How about healthcare for the American people? No. Gotta war to win. How about making sure every American has a home to live in. Nope, Gotta war to win.

 

as far as the"Plan" is concerned…I don’t have a plan and neither does he. But I’m not in charge.

I’ll tell you what, See the BIG PICTURE, find what your grandmother or great-aunt is missing and then tell me if you think they’ll find it in Iraq.

“ I’m afraid that we have very little basis for conversation…”

 
Rod, you could have left it at that, and saved yourself the tantrum… and the rest of us the boredom.

Just to remind you, I was posting an opinion. You decided to spew the retoric.

Bush said they were in Iraq and then Syria. I’m going by your intel.

It’s that whimsical mixture of cynicism, paranoia and megalomania that characterizes the Michael Moore lefties.  Yes, rod, you know better than anyone else.

Rod, post a link to the Constitution that shows us where "I’ve got an idea… How about we work on unemployment. No, gotta war to win. How about healthcare for the American people? No. Gotta war to win. How about making sure every American has a home to live in. Nope, Gotta war to win." is.  Last I checked it was not the Gov’ts job to provide every citizen a job, healthcare, and a house.

While you are there, I’ve got one that shows "The President shall be Commander in Chief of the Army and Navy of the United States, and of the Militia of the several States, when called into the actual Service of the United States".

Personally, I wouldn’t live in that s#&!hole. I live in SoCal. Hell, I wouldn’t live in Vegas , for that matter. But then again, this isn’t the war for Vegas, is it?

Tammi says, Saddam wasn’t a religious man.

Uh…yeah. The guy wrote the entire Koran using his own blood. But he wasn’t a religious man? Yeah right.

Robert, I remember quite vividly listening to Bush, Cheney, Condaliza, Rumsfield… all tell our country about the need to go to Iraq before they used their WMDs against us… They spared few details.

Do you know why the WMD reason was the loudest one touted? Because it is the one area that most of the world agree on.

And I don’t believe that the U.S. should be in charge of helping the oppressed peoples in the world. Who gets to decide who needs help and when??? There seem to be a lot of casualties every time we get involved so I’m not sure I’d like to leave that up to our leaders alone to decide… That’s the duty of the U.N.

The UN stands by and hides when hostility breaks out. They’re too busy raping little girls.

Well Robert, what do you got… want to talk about my nipples and how they tilt to the left?

as i can see ur way of tlking and having conversations stills  not devloped, it looks the same as my kids way of tlking, if u wanna have a gd conversation u should respect the other point of view. without insulting!!

I thought the hype about going to war in Iraq was because they had weapons of mass destruction and were planning to use them against us…  Wasn’t that the talking point that got us into this war?  When did it become our goal to free the oppressed peoples of this world?  Did that happen when they couldn’t sell the weapons of mass destruction concept anymore?  Hey, if we really are "saviours," then why stop at Iraq?  Let’s get a move on!  There is an abundance of oppressed peoples needing help!  We can make this a full-time job!  That’s not what Iraq was about and you know it as well as I do!  Sure this administration has turned it into that, but that was definitely not their motive for attacking.  Remember the president’s speeches and the sinister warnings given by members of the administration leading up to the war?

No, I do not hide behind pathetic excuses. That’s Bush’s job

And no, Robert, I am not some hippie peace junkie looking for my leftist fix. Is that all you have in your bag?

Since your memories seem to be highly selective and you need me to refresh them.  Here’s an exerpt from an October 7, 2002 speech from Bush.  It is a bit long, but then again I think that would SUPPORT my view that this administration convinced this country to go to war out of fear of WMD.  If you’d like, I could send you more quotes…  When you’re reading, note Bush’s choice of words "mushroom cloud"…  I don’t know about you, but that seems pretty deliberate to me.

"…Some ask how urgent this danger is to America and the world. The danger is already significant, and it only grows worse with time. If we know Saddam Hussein has dangerous weapons today — and we do –  does it make any sense for the world to wait to confront him as he grows even stronger and develops even more dangerous weapons?

 

In 1995, after several years of deceit by the Iraqi regime, the head of Iraq’s military industries defected. It was then that the regime was forced to admit that it had produced more than 30,000 liters of anthrax and other deadly biological agents. The inspectors, however, concluded that Iraq had likely produced two to four times that amount.

 

This is a massive stockpile of biological weapons that has never been accounted for, and is capable of killing millions.

 

We know that the regime has produced thousands of tons of chemical agents, including mustard gas, sarin nerve gas, and VX nerve gas. Saddam Hussein also has experience in using chemical weapons. He has ordered chemical attacks on Iran, and on more than forty villages in his own country. These actions killed or injured at least 20,000 people, more than six times the number of people who died in the attacks of September 11.

 

And surveillance photos reveal that the regime is rebuilding facilities that it has used to produce chemical and biological weapons.

 

Every chemical and biological weapon that Iraq has or makes is a direct violation of the truce that ended the Persian Gulf War in 1991.

 

Yet Saddam Hussein has chosen to build and keep these weapons, despite international sanctions, U.N. demands, and isolation from the civilized world.

 

Iraq possesses ballistic missiles with a likely range of hundreds of miles — far enough to strike Saudi Arabia, Israel, Turkey, and other nations — in a region where more than 135,000 American civilians and service members live and work.

 

We’ve also discovered through intelligence that Iraq has a growing fleet of manned and unmanned aerial vehicles that could be used to disperse chemical and biological weapons across broad areas. We are concerned that Iraq is exploring ways of using UAVs for missions targeting the United States.

 

And, of course, sophisticated delivery systems are not required for a chemical or biological attack — all that might be required are a small container and one terrorist or Iraqi intelligence operative to deliver it.

 

…

Many people have asked how close Saddam Hussein is to developing a nuclear weapon. We don’t know exactly, and that is the problem. Before the Gulf War, the best intelligence indicated that Iraq was eight to 10 years away from developing a nuclear weapon; after the war, international inspectors learned that the regime had been much closer. The regime in Iraq would likely have possessed a nuclear weapon no later than 1993.

 

The inspectors discovered that Iraq had an advanced nuclear weapons development program, had a design for a workable nuclear weapon, and was pursuing several different methods of enriching uranium for a bomb.

 

Before being barred from Iraq in 1998, the International Atomic Energy Agency dismantled extensive nuclear weapons-related facilities, including three uranium-enrichment sites.

 

That same year, information from a high-ranking Iraqi nuclear engineer who had defected, revealed that despite his public promises, Saddam Hussein had ordered his nuclear program to continue. The evidence indicates that Iraq is reconstituting its nuclear weapons program.

 

Saddam Hussein has held numerous meetings with Iraqi nuclear scientists, a group he calls his "nuclear mujahedeen" — his nuclear holy warriors.

 

Satellite photographs reveal that Iraq is rebuilding facilities at sites that have been part of its nuclear program in the past.

 

Iraq has attempted to purchase high-strength aluminum tubes and other equipment needed for gas centrifuges, which are used to enrich uranium for nuclear weapons.

 

If the Iraqi regime is able to produce, buy, or steal an amount of highly-enriched uranium a little larger than a single softball, it could have a nuclear weapon in less than a year.

 

And if we allow that to happen, a terrible line would be crossed. Saddam Hussein would be in a position to blackmail anyone who opposes his aggression. He would be in a position to dominate the Middle East. He would be in a position to threaten America. And Saddam Hussein would be in a position to pass nuclear technology to terrorists.

 

Some citizens wonder: After 11 years of living with this problem, why do we need to confront it now?

 

There is a reason. We have experienced the horror of September 11. We have seen that those who hate America are willing to crash airplanes into buildings full of innocent people.Our enemies would be no less willing — in fact they would be eager — to use a biological, or chemical, or a nuclear weapon.

 

Knowing these realities, America must not ignore the threat gathering against us. Facing clear evidence of peril, we cannot wait for the final proof — the smoking gun — that could come in the form of a mushroom cloud.

 

As President Kennedy said in October of 1962: "Neither the United States of America nor the world community of nations can tolerate deliberate deception and offensive threats on the part of any nation, large or small. We no longer live in a world," he said, "where only the actual firing of weapons represents a sufficient challenge to a nation’s security to constitute maximum peril."

 

Understanding the threats of our time, knowing the designs and deceptions of the Iraqi regime, we have every reason to assume the worst, and we have an urgent duty to prevent the worst from occurring. …"

This is heartening, but I feel the problem with Islam is not so much who they worship but rather that their society hasn’t evolved like western society.  They seem trapped at the stage of evolution equivalent to Christianity’s "inquisition" era.  Back then Christians tortured and murdered "heretics."  Today extremist Muslims torture and murder "infidels."