Pil, Will, we done already smacked wetback around. It trolls through from time to time, spewing bile and moronicy upon all and sundry. And its screeching appears to have evaporated.

Bye-bye, wetback, seeya in a few months. Don’t skip your meds.

WTF–

Who the hell is this other “Justin B”?

Don’t come around here and use my name and start some shit dude.

That is part of the problem with this country, too many people like you just don’t care, you don’t care that our country has been sliding into a moral sewer for several decades now; people like you have no absolute standards of right and wrong anymore, you proclaim your tolerant nature in accepting a little evil today, a little more evil tomorrow, until you wake up to discover one day that there is nothing so low and vile that it will stir up any moral indignation in your heart, except maybe Christianity.

Public displays of homosexual conduct and things like Transsexual politicians, homosexual marriage, abortion and etcetera severely lowers the overall code of public deceny and standards of morality. We, as a people, no longer think anything is right or wrong, and nothing causes us to feel genuine shame anymore; and this tolerationist attitude grants these people and their behavior our national imprimatuer, things which only a few decades ago were considered vile, wicked and unspeakable. Oh, you might rage today against something like sexual molestation of children; but in Germany they tried recently to call upon fathers to massage the vaginas of their 1 year and older daughters and the penis of their little boys, all to develop a healthy sense of sexuality. When it comes to America, you might at first object but as more and more people engage in such conduct your moral barriers will fall once again and you will say you just don’t care.

In the 1950′s nudity was confined to a few dirty burlesque houses in the seedy sections of big cities and even then pasties over female nipples were the standard of public decency. Then magazines like Playboy came out – with interesting articles to be sure, and quickly pornography even at home was fashionable, then the next thing was topless bars, topless-bottomless dancers, topless waitresses, simulated sex acts on stage, to gay bath houses and public participation nude theaters. In the middle of all of this homosexuality became fashionable, a thing to be accepted as long as it was quiet and not seen, to the point now where they march down the streets of our big cities appearing and behaving in ways that only the most vile humans would consider acceptable public behavior. This behavior better fits in ancient Rome or Greece just before those empires fell into the trashheap of history. Now to speak against homosexuality is a hate crime and anyone not accepting homosexual relationships and behavior have become redneck, hated conservative Christians; and that was when the world was turned upside down: Homosexuality, transgenderism is now acceptable, but taking the Gospel to the streets and even being a Christian is something that is being forced into the shadows and the closet where all shameful attitudes should be kept.

But, that’s okay, because after all, your just don’t care!

Nieman…

I seem to have struck a noive.

If you’ll read the post carefully you’ll discover that I wasn’t endorsing any of those activities. I am slamming our idiots in office.

And, no, I don’t care. Race, religion, or sexual preference should not be used to determine the character of a person. A good person is a good person without regard to any of those. On the other hand, an asshole is an asshole regardless.

I care about how myself and my family are treated by individuals, whether or not they’re honest or honorable, not who they sleep with or what color they are.

Calm down. I can assure you that I’m not the cause of moral collapse in this country. The expanded parameters of behavior is.

For the record, nobody defended me. And for that reason alone, I know I am on the right path. Let the world hate me, because I am not of this world, and proudly so.

For that reason alone?

Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall. Proverbs 16:18

You forgot the cardinal rule of male peeing.
“Never pee into the wind”

Dear Anna: Unspoken is not the same as forgetting!

Rob, you like wear women’s underwear don’t you?

Please, under no circumstances ever defend me about anything

You and Hey Boy will be safe tonight!

And since you don’t think God is doing a very good job of Judge of all the earth, there’s this:

John 8:3 And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst,

4 They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.

5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?

6 This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.

7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

Could it be that you are living life in a closet?

Funny! Coming from someone who signs itself “unknown”. Better the closet you know than the one you don’t???

If Roman’s was carried out literally, you do realize that it would not allow for capital punishment, right?

Except, perhaps for that whole “bearing the sword in Romans 13!

1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:

4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

I think capital punishment falls in there.

Pilgrim: It only hits a nerve because I have personally witnessed the steady, inevitable moral collapse of this country for over six decades, wherein our world has truly been turned upside down; and while I cannot change anything by myself, I must at every opportunity express my outrage at how far we have fallen and how far we will yet fall into the moral sewer.

A good person is a good person without regard to any of those.

Even atheists and agnostics, mistakenly call Jesus a good philosopher; but he said no one is good but the Father, He condemned the world as utterly sinful. So, according to whose standards do we say this person is good and this one is not, when the only good Person that ever lived said there is no such thing as a good person. How, if we are, depending upon your belief in God or lack thereof, going to violate either Natural Design or Creative Design with our bodies and still be thought of as good? If a man does evil things and yet seems to treat you okay, is he good or evil? How can that which is inherently evil produce anything good? If by our toleration of such things we allow our children to believe such things are acceptable and not something to feel ashamed to witness, then how will your children have any standards upon which to measure good and evil?

Calm down. I can assure you that I’m not the cause of moral collapse in this country. The expanded parameters of behavior is [are?].

Were good Germans that stayed silent in the presence of Nazi evil accomplices in that evil? If I see a man raping a woman and I do nothing to stop him, don’t I share his guilt for the crime? To be silent and inactive in the face of things which destroy our sense of right and wrong is to be a cause of that evil and even worse evils that will follow. If you see our country suffering a moral collapse, it is not expanded parameters of behavior that caused it, it is you and me when we do not resist it, fight it and overcome it. Frankly, that is my attitude about Iraq, these Islamic murderers are evil and we must resist, fight and overcome their evil before they destroy us.

Yet, by your words it appears in all of this you find my responses to be an emotional overreaction. But, going back to the Germany example, I would rather protest evil and even die in the attempt to stop it, than to be passive in the face of evil and by doing nothing allow it to prosper.

Justin B.:

Did their constituents by virtue of the popular vote (or electoral college) rightly cast their ballots and elect them to office?

And if it was a Hitler, Chavez or other dictator, would your response be the same?

I am only concerned when we are silent and seemingly permissive in the face of evil. If S.F. is the modern Sodom and/or elects a child molestor to office, while I cannot do anything to stop them or keep the person from taking office, am I not still responsible to object and say the Emperor has no clothes? Or, should I remain silent and allow evil to prosper without opposition?

A redwood tree, 2 inches tall, is still a redwood.

So, you’re saying your reasoning, though small and stunted, may someday be equal to the task?

Two inch redwood? Meet my lawnmower!

Hitler was a charismatic speaker who exploited the zeitgeist of a nation oppressed by the Treaty of Versailles, who found his way to power. WETBACK is an Internet geek who alienates people with his poor grammar and crackpot ideas, who might not be able to find his way out of his Mom’s basement.
Oh, yeah! BIG time comparison with Hitler!

will: Maybe you can hire a few Sherpa and climb some of the molehills in MY yard?

I do, actually. Quite a bit. Not for myself, of course, but on my wife?

I actually prefer them OFF of my wife, but that is neither here nor there.

the country’s largest sex toy companies

I am just curious how many of us would care if our commissioner held this CEO position. (not to mention the many other positions she has experience in)

also neiman sixty years ago, before the moral collapse you refer to, african americans were 2nd class citizens.

also, sparkie, sixty years ago, before the moral collapse referred to, telephones weighed over five pounds and were tied to the wall by a cord! And here! This may add some relevance to your argument, sparkie…the phones were…black!

And if you can’t see the harm in what Wetback is saying, you are naive my friend.

Oh, puh-leease! You start making Hitler comparisons over some bargain basement bigot and I’m naive?
When some twit shows up with obnoxious ideas, you squash his ideas, not him. If you want to take the Hitler comparison to its logical conclusion, maybe you’d like to advocate killing WETBACK to prevent some imagined holocaust? (There’s irony for you!)
Which is more naive? Taking a rational look at the odious comments of an individual and labeling them as such, or inflating them (and him) by equating this pissant with Hitler?
Take a chill pill will!

Sparkie: I believe Neiman was very specific in what he labeled as “moral decay”, and playing the race card has nothing to do with what he wrote. It’s simply a distraction, like I said. You really are Chomskyesque, you know. Look for the bad and characterize that as telling the whole story.

I take it that you agree, that the people who support these people are underminingly (sic) destroying a healthy moral society. But disagree on putting them to death.

“I take it that you agree” -no, you’ve got that wrong, too!
“healthy moral society”? Not so sure about that either! By your own standards, if I find you undermining a healthy moral society (perhaps by unjustly calling for people to be executed without cause) I should put you to death? I prefer a nation of law based on morality. You propose killing people, not for what they’ve done, but what they are. (If you base this on some misguided religious belief, it certainly isn’t Christianity!)

My distasteful solution may be irrational

So close! Get rid of “may” and seek counseling!

I don’t believe this is done in a vacuum

Ironic, because after reading the article, it leads me to question if “Good Vibrations” sells anything involving vacuums. In that case it would be “done with a vacuum”.

At least she is a transsexual, not a simple cross dresser. Last time I was in SF, I picked up a hooker, and it turns out she was a crossdresser instead of a chick. Which normally I would be like “ewww”, but it kind of intrigued me. Turns out that because of her specialty equipment package, she wanted to charge me double.

Net of the story is that I just saved my money and went to this nice Asian bath house. Fist time I have ever gone to take a bath and felt dirtier coming out of the place then when I went in.

A sex change is not something that makes the country less moral.

Really? What is its effect, then? I await your logical argument.

As is typical of lefties, you attempt to justify everything on the playing of the race card, when this example has nothing to do with race. Like comparing so-called “gay marriage” with interracial marriage. The first one isn’t marriage at all, while the second one is marriage. Not the same at all.
In the same way, forcing taxpayers to pay for this weirdness isn’t related to racial discrimination at all, but it makes good political theater, if you’re a leftie.

sixty years ago, before the moral collapse you refer to, african americans were 2nd class citizens.

This statement is irrelevant to the subject; typical leftie distraction in place of reasoned debate.

Sparkie:

sixty years ago, before the moral collapse you refer to, african americans were 2nd class citizens.

You are correct and it was shameful. However, may I point out it was mostly white Christians and white Christian ministers that were at the vanguard of the anti-slavery movement in England and here; and that while many Southern white Christians were not very supportive of the Civil Rights movement, many millions of white Christians were in the lead in opposing our racist policies and attitudes in this country. In other words, we saw slavery and racism as a positive evil and had the moral clarity to say the emperor had no clothes and fight for justice.

Homosexuality and transgendered behavior is not like race, it is a lifetsyle choice and depending upon whether you are a Christian or no, it is either a clear violation of Natural Design or Divine Creation, it brings with it serious health risks to those involved and has a negative inpact on society. Therefore, it is an evil that must be opposed.

Important note: While homosexual behavior is condemned in Scripture and outside Scripture harms human beings; God created every human being, He loves them unconditionally and any hatred toward homosexuals, transgendered people or Lesbians would be a sin. Hating sin (behavior) and genuinely loving every human being God created is not a contradiction!

Pilgrim – I think that in Texas they’d say he was “all hat, and no cattle”.

He’s harmless. There are people who want to see me exterminated, and if they had the chance, would actually take action to that effect. But not this one.

It’s not the nazi-wannabes that I fear: it’s the genuine Eichmanns, the bureaucrats to whom I’m subhuman filth, an “it”.

The Australian Passport Office doesn’t issue passports to people like me: the Australian Passports Determination 2005 states that it is “unnecessary or undesirable” to give passports to those being extradited, deported, repatriated, or who are Transgendered. Instead they give a “Document of Identity” that only a few countries recognise as a travel document, and which does not guarantee right of re-entry back into the country.

If I attempt to enter the US, for example, I have to do it on my UK passport. Now my UK records state that my Birth Certificate says “Boy”, even though the sex on my UK passport is “F”. Depending on the port of entry, I can not merely be refused entry, but odds are pretty good that I’d be put in a Male holding facility, along with AIDS victims, Drug Addicts, and Psychos.

Such things have happened, with the predictable results. What’s so unfair is that airline security won’t even allow a glass sliver through so you can open your veins and end it quickly.

There are people I fear: this guy isn’t one of them.

I do, actually. Quite a bit. Not for myself, of course, but on my wife?

Hey, whatever happens in Rob’s room stays in Rob’s room.

Trans-genders are known pussies….but let’s get tough on crime!

Good Vibrations. I’ve seen their ads. They’ve got this one vibrator in the shape of a rubber duck!

Gives a whole new meaning to the Sesame Street song:

Rubby ducky, you’re the one!
You make bath time lots of fun!
Rubber ducky, I’m awfully fond of you!

Will said:

The only thing refreshing was that the article was over.

I seriously want to take a shower now.

My, my….I don’t ever expect everyone to agree with me when I write an opinion piece. That’s the whole thing about ‘opinion’. Everyone has a different one about almost everything. Otherwise sites like this would be a boring place.

But, hey, Will….I didn’t write that piece to entice you into some nasty ol’ perversion. It was basically satire and a slam on our politicians. NOT an endorsement of a lifestyle. Maybe I should have been clearer on that when I wrote it.

BUT…..if it turned you on to the point where you needed a warm shower with your soap on a rope, well, have at it, cowboy. It’s a free country, 21st century and all that.

Transgendered behaviour a lifestyle choice? Not for those who are transsexual it isn’t.

See
Kruijver F.P.M, Zhou J.-N, Pool C.W., Swaab D.F. (2000)
Male-to-Female Transsexuals Have Female Neuron Numbers in a Limbic Nucleus

And many other papers on the subject. It’s a gross simplification, but captures the essence of the syndrome, to say “Female Brain, Male Body”. Or the reverse, “Male Brain, Female Body”.

It’s as much a lifestyle choice as having a cleft palate. The difference is, that those who get surgical treatment for cleft palates don’t get anathematised by medically and scientifically illiterate groups. There’s no talk about “God doesn’t make mistakes” when an infant is born that way. Nor are they told to “bear the thorn in one’s flesh”. The problem gets fixed.

I’m not a resident of SF, but I wouldn’t think merely being the CEO of a sex toy company is a particularly useful qualification for a police chief.

On the other hand, being a member of a minority group who suffers a congenital anomaly, and also has a rate of being murdered 19 times the average, over 5 times higher than the next highest minority group (young urban black males), then I think that is.

From some of the comments here, I think I can see why the murder rate is so high. Not that anyone here would actually kill someone for being transsexual – but they won’t weep too many tears if it happens, and won’t be too concerned if the murderer isn’t caught. Not as much as for a “normal” person, and not a freak.

Oh yes, I admit to being a freak – biologically I am, I’m intersexed as well as TS. Just don’t call me a Lefty, Ok? That’s fighting talk.

I know a doctor in Houston who performed that surgery when he was an intern in New Orleans. He said the psychological testing on the patients were extensive. BUT what it did to him he might never know. He said the patients undergoing that are so intent they would do anything to rid themselves of their male appendages. I can’t imagine personally how someone could be so uncomfortable with their own gender that they would go to such great measures to reassign themselves.

That’s the whole thing about ‘opinion’.

I didn’t say you couldn’t have one, I just thought there were some things that couldn’t be left unchallenged.

It was basically satire and a slam on our politicians. NOT an endorsement of a lifestyle. Maybe I should have been clearer on that when I wrote it.

I thought you were being pretty honest and considerate, and I gave you credit for that in my first response. Being transgender does not and should not need to be the story. When your business is a sex toy store, it reinforces the headline and you’re not helping matters.

One of my profs in college was in the beginning stages of the transsexual process and I don’t consider him when I think of transsexuals. Male, female or transsexual … the guy was a nut case and certainly not one I would want to base my overall opinion on. I guess it just goes to show you there’s an odd one in every group.
Zoe Brain … my point about the commissioner being the CEO of that Co. is it probably would not be tolerated or acceptable in any other communities simply because most places, umm … simply wouldn’t.

Sparky said

One person’s decision to have a sex change is not an ‘effect’ as such. It is merely one of the benefits to being an American as we Americans have a lot of positive autonomy as long as it doesn’t infringe on someone else’s negative autonomy.

Er, not quite. It doesn’t work that way.

First, you have to see a gender specialist – a qualified psychologist or psychiatrist specialising in the area.

Then, after at least three months of diagnostic observation, hormones may be prescribed. Anyone who is merely transvestite or delusional, and who has managed to fool the professional, tends to get upset at the physical changes, the atrophy of the genitalia etc. They stop, and the changes reverse. To the correctly diagnosed TS person, it feels wonderful, they become more productive, more functional, often any co-morbidities vanish.

After some time on hormones, and with a changed appearance from them, the patient then starts the “Real Life Experience”, living in the target gender role. That means changing the name, getting as much documentation as possible changed, and so on. This is a risky and challenging time for those whose appearance doesn’t look so good. Many end up being victims of violence, but that’s just the way things are.

After at least one year of the “RLE”, the patient then gets referred to another specialist, with a PhD in psychiatry, also specialising in the area. The patient must be OK’d for surgery by not one, but two shrinks. They must both be sure that it’s a congenital problem, and not some other syndrome, such as Borderline Personality Disorder, or some delusional psychosis.

Then and only then will a surgeon consider operating on them.

It’s not a matter of “Oh, I think I’ll have a sex change today”. In some ways it’s not even voluntary, the hurdles are so high, with the risk of losing family, home, job, life savings, that only the truly desperate will attempt it. Many fail. Many die. Most of the rest lose at least part of the things they value, often being denied access to their children for example.

But it’s transition, die, or get institutionalised with an increasingly dysfunctional mind. Courage as such is not required. Desperation, determination, and sheer indomitability is.

Zsa Zsa wrote:

I can’t imagine personally how someone could be so uncomfortable with their own gender that they would go to such great measures to reassign themselves.

The point is, they are comfortable with their gender. It’s the fact that their bodies don’t match their gender that causes the discomfort.

Perhaps you would be perfectly comfortable if you had a male body. Beard, body hair, genitalia, the works. You’d still know you were female, of course, and would have known since age 4-7. You’d have exactly the same feelings and emotions as you do now, though the testosterone would be warping your mind, and you’d know it. It feels horrible, perverse even. And it gets worse with age, female pattern brains don’t work too well with a male hormonal mix. Think of the worst menopausal symptoms imaginable, all the time, for 30 years. See now why many are so desperate to get the problem fixed?

robert108 wrote:

as long as I don’t have to pay for it, do what you want.

Of course we have to pay for it ourselves! It’s not covered by medicare, and if you look at your insurance policy, you’ll see a specific exclusion for anything to do with sex reassignment, or its consequences. Many insurance companies refuse all claims after sex reassignment, on the grounds that the broken leg or whatever may possibly not have happened if there’d been no surgery.

And the IRS is now claiming that it isn’t tax deductible, that it’s just cosmetic. Of course the same government insists that surgery be perfomed before they will issue a passport in the correct gender. And it’s a precondition to getting the birth certificate changed. Though 3 states won’t change the BC anyway. They make lesbian marriages legal, as long as one of the women is TS.

Would you say the same if the surgery was to correct a cleft palate?

A cleft palate and a transgender operation are not in the same catagory at all.

ZB: You make it sound like some courageous endeavor. As long as I don’t have to pay for it, do what you want.

But give me a social and fiscal conservative transgender person anyday over Rudy.

Ha!!! LOL! You made my point. I think our elected cockroaches – and most of the candidate wannabes – are pretty creepy people, their disingenousness and slithering obvious to anyone who just takes a good look.

Character-wise I think we’ve hit bottom in Washington.

Anna: I most respectfully disagree!

1. Epileptics have a physical abnormality in the brain which often causes violent or what is called grand mal seizures; and until that fact was determined by advances in medical science, the professionals were left with no choice but to institutionalize something they could not diagnose.
2. In the case of Hermaphrodites, we are talking about external observations by medical professionals to try and help the patient with both sexual organs to determine which gender best fits the overall physiological traits and characteristics they observe and measure.
3. Transsexuals are basing their lifestyle choice and decison for gender reassignment solely upon their emotions, whether they feel more like a woman than a man or vice versa; although it should be noted that females changing to males represent such a small number that when compared to the total so-called trassexual population the latter group is statistically insignificant. The problem here is not physiologic but psychological, by every physical measurement they are one and only one specific gender and it is only by what they say they feel that they determine they have the wrong sexual organs. I would submit that a more emotionally feminine man, which factor is usually caused by environment, having homosexual lusts falsely believe they have the wrong genitalia and choose to change their sexual organs to match their feelings. But, first to last transsexualism is a matter or emotions and choice and not dictated by any genetic predisposition.

OH …so it is a chromosone deformity?

Look, imagine you were confused about gender roles and who you were. You live in a society that does not tolerate this kind of behavior. Furthermore, you live in a family that does not tolerate it.

It is this constant internal struggle between being who you think you are and being what everyone else wants you to be.

I want you to be normal. But clearly as a man who longs to be and honestly believes he is a woman, that does not fit the traditional definition of “normal” by most standards. It certainly is not even close among the deeply religious. But hiding it does not make you any more normal. It makes you deeply self loathing because you cannot be who you think you really are. And having surgery is usually going to completely drive off every single person you ever have known or had a relationship with–family, friends, co-workers. You want to move across country, change your name (which you already did), and completely leave the world behind. You want to find acceptance.

The problem is that we (as the regular society) do not and probably never will offer acceptance for a behavior that so clearly violates the cultural norms. This is not like being black. This is probably not even the equivalent of deciding you are gay. Imagine doing something 1000x more difficult than coming out as gay. We are used to that. We may not like that, but we know all kinds of gays.

It is some weird shit, but these people need our support (though I do not believe support equates to our agreement or justification). Simply our compassion. I don’t believe that the kind of psychological trauma that the surgery, hormonal changes, and the past experiences of a lifetime of problems associated with gender role issues make these people–NORMAL. These are people that have tortured and tormented lives and I don’t know if surgery makes it better, but I am inclined not to take that chance when I comes to electing them to police commissioner.

I think it would be pretty cool to be a man at times. Especially if you are out hiking! It would be so much easier to relieve yourself… Men are so cool that way.

2Hotel9
What you said is quite ironic. No-one who is “mentally unstable” qualifies for surgery.

On the other hand, individuals who refer to other human beings as “It” bring to mind Buffalo Bill in “The Silence of the Lambs”. Many shrinks would think such a person may well be in need of therapy.

I don’t. I don’t even think you’re particularly bigoted. Just very, very ignorant of the medical facts. But that’s pardonable, most people are. I was, until I did some research.

It was as long ago as 2003 that a comprehensive judicial review of the scientific evidence was conducted by the Full Bench of the Family Court of Australia. Here’s what was found in the “re Kevin” case:

At paragraph [252]: ‘The traditional analysis that they are “psychologically” transsexual does not explain how this state came about. For example, there seems to be no suggestion in the evidence that their psychological state can be explained by reference to circumstances of their upbringing. In that sense, the brain sex theory does not seem to be competing with other explanations, but rather is providing a possible explanation of what is otherwise inexplicable’.

At paragraph [253]: ‘In other words (as I understand it) the brain of an individual may in some sense be male, for example, though the rest of the person’s body is female’.

At paragraph [268]: ‘It seems quite wrong to think of these people as merely wishing or preferring to be of the opposite sex, or having the opinion that they are’.

At paragraph [270]: ‘But I am satisfied that the evidence now is inconsistent with the distinction formerly drawn between biological factors, meaning genitals, chromosomes and gonads, and merely “psychological factors”, and on this basis distinguishing between cases of inter-sex (incongruities among biological factors) and transsexualism (incongruities between biology and psychology)’.

At paragraph [272]: ‘In my view the evidence demonstrates (at least on the balance of probabilities) that the characteristics of transsexuals are as much “biological” as those of people thought of as inter-sex’.

At paragraph [136]: ‘I agree with Ms Wallbank that in the present context the word “man” should be given its ordinary contemporary meaning. In determining that meaning, it is relevant to have regard to many things that were the subject of evidence and submissions. They include the context of the legislation, the body of case law on the meaning of “man” and similar words, the purpose of the legislation, and the current legal, social and medical environment. These matters are considered in the course of the judgment. I believe that this approach is in accordance with common sense, principles of statutory interpretation, and with all or virtually all of the authorities in which the issue of sexual identity has arisen. As Professor Gooren and a colleague put it:-

“There should be no escape for medical and legal authorities that these definitions ought to be corrected and updated when new information becomes available, particularly when our outdated definitions bring suffering to some of our fellow human beings”.’

She’s a She, not an It. Another piece of irony: you typed your comment using a personal computer, a piece of technology that would have been impossible without an invention by Professor Emerita Lynn Conway. She too was born with this condition. Why not go to her webpage and see just how many medics, scientists, and engineers there are who make no secret of their medical history. I’m just a plain old rocket scientist, still working on my PhD. Unlike, say, the chief scientist of NASA’s Aimes Research Labs.

It’s thanks to people like you that most live in Stealth, trying to hide their past.

It is some weird shit, but these people need our support (though I do not believe support equates to our agreement or justification). Simply our compassion.

Bingo. Compassion does not equate to support. Further, my compassion does not extend to the phonies, the flamers, the gay pride in-your-face-if-you-don’t-like-my-lifestyle-then-you’re-a-bigot morons.

Despite some of the more hard line stances on this issue the fact is that compassion and understanding have helped to make this country great every bit as much as any other factor.

A possible Problem with a Transsexual Police Commissioner, how about forcing city employees to either violate their conscience or losing their jobs if the they do not support homosexual conduct?

Four firefighters are suing the city of San Diego for being forced by their superiors to attend the annual “Gay Pride” parade where they endured a barrage of sexual taunts and lewd gestures.

San Diego’s fire chief, Tracy Jarman, is an open lesbian who called the July 21 parade a “fun event” in which “all employees are encouraged to participate.”

But the firefighters said, unlike previous years, they were ordered into uniform to participate in the parade in their fire truck, despite their repeated protests.

The firefighters’ legal counsel, the Thomas More Law Center, said the men were “left with the Hobson’s choice of either violating their conscience or being disciplined for disobeying a direct order.”

I have never really equated my genetalia to a cleft palate, though I have thought about placing mine in one.

Hermaphrodites have male and female genitals and secondary sexual characteristics must be considered to allow them to choose a permanent gender assignment. It is a birth defect, very complicated emotionally and often gender assignment by removing one genital structure and using hormone therapy is delayed until the person has sufficient maturity to make their own choice, although until recent decades the parents made that choice for them shortly after birth to avoid the even worse emotional conflicts durign their growing years.

Malformations of sexual genitalia are likewise a birth defect, but gender assignment is not in question, just surgical and sometime pharmacological intervention.

Transsexualism is when a person: A. Emotionally identifies themselves as being of the opposite gender that their sexual organs seem to dictate. Until recent decades such men were labelled sissy (momma’s) boys or the girls were tomboys or butch. These people may dress and act like they are of the opposite gender, but sexually function with the organs of birth. B. So strongly identifies themselves as being of the opposite gender that their sexual organs appear to dictate, and they are determined to live like the opposite gender, so they choose surgery and hormonal therapy to make their sexual organs and physiology more closely match their emotional gender preference.

With hermaphrodites or sexual organ malformations it is not a matter of lifestyle choice, medical intervention is required and there are no social/moral dilemmas involved.

With transsexuals they were clearly born physically to be of one gender and one gender only; and because of severe emotional conflicts, raher than seek psychiatric help to adjust to their sexual organs, they deliberately choose to change their gender assignment that they might engage in the sexual lifestyle of that gender. If you think about it, a man changing to be a woman is a man with homosexual desires and a feminine personality, a woman is a lesbian with a masculine pesonality. I must add for clarity that homosexuals or lesbians can, in a number of cases have an emotional make-up that matches their gender, but because of various psychological problem in their youth, molestation or other factors, they simply cannot stand to have intimate physical contact with their own gender, and choose to engage in such intimacy with others of their own gender.

Nonetheless, in the case of transsexuals, homosexuals and lesbians, as with anyone else having an abnormal sexual or other desire, they can choose to act or not act on those perverse desires and if they choose to act on them, then it does involve social/moral problems of the first magnitude. Further, while it is wrong to hate, be violent or even angry at people making those lifestyle choices; society has always asserted a right to not recognize those desires and behaviorisms as being normal, demanding children not have to confront it in the public square and in general making sure a sense of shame is attached to it that people with those desires in future generations are less likely to act out in public or private.

This is hardly exhaustive, but may prove helpful to some.

In this case, a transsexual in a high profile public position has been given the moral imprimatuer of the city and state to flaunt what should be private behavior and an aberrant lifestyle choice.

Zsa Zsa: Yes it does!

Transsexual means having the genitals of let’s say a man and wanting them removed to sexually appear to be a woman. Who will that man with an artificial vagina have sexual intercourse with, women? No, they feel like they are women and want to receive the male genitalia in a female appearing sexual orifice. So, we have a guy, now absent a penis having a artificial vagina having sex with other males, sounds like homosexuality to me. You see he was and still is a guy, despite hormones and no penis and he is having sexual desires and relationships with other guys and I think we call that homosexuality.

Proof, I never thought of that. How much fun!

Proof, You forgot the cardinal rule of male peeing.
“Never pee into the wind”

likwidshoe: Everything you said were your personal, subjective opinions…

No they weren’t. It’s not my “subjective opinion” that some people with male bodies have female brains. I’m just detailing the reality there, not my opinion.

…and you are guilty of judging others…

Who am I judging and what is the judgment?

I only made the comment that some of ya’ll need to lay off. Looks like I hit the target if you’re telling me that I am the one doing the judging.

while you condemn them for judging transsexuals.

What condemnation? Where?

No…

So you didn’t choose, but you believe that everybody who isn’t hetereosexual did.

…I am a male with natural sexual attractions to females, if I had unnatural affections…

What is “unnatural”? And this is where you lose the argument. There are six billion people out in the world. You find it hard to believe that there are some natural variations in sexuality, gender, and the like? Really?!? When has nature ever been so consistent?

…I would hope I would be responsible and choose not to act out on those perverse desires.

Hmmm…one wonders how you’d council a four year old transgendered on his/her “perverse desires”. (They do exist and they are born that way.)

Since God clearly condemns homosexual behavior…

“God”? Whose God? Yours or mine?

You bring up God and argue from a position of authority that means nothing to an atheist such as Rob or an agnostic such as me.

I’d have to ask this God why He makes so many homosexuals if He condemns the behavior. Doesn’t seem very logical to me.

If the Bible is true and God created man and woman with sexual organs designed to work fit the opposite gender, then to violate that Creative Design is to be disobedient to God and he calls that disobedience idolatry and a most grievoius sin.

So why does this God make some males without penises? Is it a violation of “Creative Design” to fix that? (I’m not kidding on the no penis thing. My old Marine Corps dad was once a recruiter and had to get a medical waver for a guy who was born without the organ. Are you telling me that God intended for this man to never piss? This is where the “Creative Design” argument breaks down.)

For those of you choosing to reject God’s existence: Any superficial examination of the the male and female sexual organs would cause any intelligent human being to conclude they are designed to fit the opposite gender…

Well there’s your problem. You’re just superficially examining the situation. You’re spending all of your time looking at the penis, that you failed to notice that the biggest sexual organ is the brain.

I don’t want to waste my time detailing the many ways their perverse sexual relationships place you at risk and affect your life…

Transgendered people and gay people do not affect me.

…but as an example, there is no question that homosexuals have more sexual partners than most heterosexuals, they more often engage in dangerous, unprotected sex, and they also often engage in sexual intercourse with heterosexuals; and thereby venereal diseases are transmitted to people in the heterosexual community not having any direct relationships with homosexuals, being victims of both the homosexuals promiscuous and dangerous liaisons, but also that of their uncaring heterosexual partners. This disease transmisson has other costs to our society which are incalculable.

Those are sluts. Sluts know no gender and sexual barrier.

Lastly, while you have a right to defend your homosexual,lesbian and transgendered friends and partners; surely other people, like yours truly, have a right to protest what they believe is a wicked and dangerous lifestyle choice.

Did you choose? Why do you assume that everybody who isn’t straight chose? It’s not a very nice assumption. It’s not a “defense” of anybody to point out this logical fallacy.

Neiman,

With hermaphrodites or sexual organ malformations it is not a matter of lifestyle choice, medical intervention is required and there are no social/moral dilemmas involved.

What do they use to decide what gender is correct?

likwidshoe: Everything you said were your personal, subjective opinions and you are guilty of judging others while you condemn them for judging transsexuals.

Not everybody cho[o]ses. Did you cho[o]se?

No, I am a male with natural sexual attractions to females, if I had unnatural affections, I would hope I would be responsible and choose not to act out on those perverse desires. While I am not comparing them, as an example, a pedophile has sexual desires for children, but society rightly demands they not act out on those desires – choosing to force them to control unnatural and perverse sexual desires. There are many desires of many human beings which are unnatural, perverse and harmful; those people would claim they have no choice but to act out on their sexual desires, just like homosexuals but as a society, we not only demand they not act out on those desires, we often exact punishments against them if they do act out.

There are billions of people with all of the variety that nature/God brings.

Since God clearly condemns homosexual behavior, He said in Roman’s that He would allow them to indulge in those unnatural desires if they chose to do so, and their punishment would be just for disobeying Him. Thus, by God’s condemnation of that sexual lifestyle in Scripture, He clearly rejects the notion that He created anyone as a homosexual. If the Bible is true and God created man and woman with sexual organs designed to work fit the opposite gender, then to violate that Creative Design is to be disobedient to God and he calls that disobedience idolatry and a most grievoius sin.

For those of you choosing to reject God’s existence: Any superficial examination of the the male and female sexual organs would cause any intelligent human being to conclude they are designed to fit the opposite gender and when that natural design is violated there are distortions and abusive use of those sexual organs with their own health risks; and penis to anal intercoure and penis to mouth intercourse or mouth to vagina intercourse presents the risk of disease transmission that natural sexual relations between a man and woman for a lifetime does not present.

They don’t affect me.

I don’t want to waste my time detailing the many ways their perverse sexual relationships place you at risk and affect your life; but as an example, there is no question that homosexuals have more sexual partners than most heterosexuals, they more often engage in dangerous, unprotected sex, and they also often engage in sexual intercourse with heterosexuals; and thereby venereal diseases are transmitted to people in the heterosexual community not having any direct relationships with homosexuals, being victims of both the homosexuals promiscuous and dangerous liaisons, but also that of their uncaring heterosexual partners. This disease transmisson has other costs to our society which are incalculable.

Lastly, while you have a right to defend your homosexual,lesbian and transgendered friends and partners; surely other people, like yours truly, have a right to protest what they believe is a wicked and dangerous lifestyle choice.

Zoe Brain…Do you consider this a disease?

lol, yeah, I’d rather have someone in office with a brain, a male organ and a pair of breasts than a president with an enlarged male organ, no breasts, and no brain.

I think we’re speaking the same language now. But still, I’d want them to convert their Sex Toy Store into a home, say, for unwed mothers

That statement is manufactured out of your anti-Christian bias and gross ignorance. 1. Everyone and anyone not accepting Christ as their personal savior are not condemned to hell by God, they go there by their own Free Will choice. 2. Christians are commanded not to judge anyones eternal fate, as even if we were right at the moment, not having God’s knowledge we could easily be wrong in the final analysis and have hurt someone unnecessarily. 3. God loves every one He created, Jesus died to save them all because He is God and loves every human being; therefore, no true Christian would every act in hate or condemn anyone to hell, rather they would love everyone, including homosexuals, Lesbians and transgendered people unconditionally just as God loves and forgives us, as we are as to our flesh, no better than the worst sinner.

Make a biblical thread about whats written above and I’ll debate you there. Jesus came for His sheep only, not everyone. Paul said Homo’s will not inherit the kingdom of God. I would love to have a biblical debate with you, and yes I am a Christian.

It’s just like your liberal love the sinner hate the sin bull shit

Sorry for the double post but I didn’t think the first one posted. By the way…can likwidshoe or Rob tell me if this “wetback” guy is the same guy as “Roe” on another post or are we just blessed with two new, really hostile and ugly posters?

I agree that the Kinsey study was flawed. I made no mention of it.

I was tempted to write off that argument as a “Straw Man”, but reading the rest of your post, you raise a very valid point.

Academia has been infested with “Political Corectness” now to such an extent that finding objective data on anything to do with Human Sexuality has become very difficult. The PC view is that Gender is a social construct, and biology has little to do with it. It was only recently that the President of Harvard was hounded out of office for mentioning “Inconvenient Truths” about biology.

The trouble is that no research is being done in the USA on this topic. The American Psychiatric Association relies on figures from overseas that are 40 years old when it estimates prevalence of HBS.

There are two main sources of funding for research. The first is conservative philanthropic institutions, and they want nothing to do with such Freaks as myself. The second is left-wing academia, and any research that might contradict their post-modernist views on Gender as a Social Construct cannot be allowed to happen.

Now Anne Lawrence is a controversial figure in her own right, and I disgree with much of her analysis. But she’d academically honest (albeit mistaken in my view) and her data gathering is rigorous and exacting.

The problem is that you’ve asked for objective evidence, yet automatically reject anything not confirming your eccentric views, unread, as being biased.

The way to fight bias is with facts. That is why I asked you for your own data. If it doesn’t exist, then you should seriously question whether you are prejudiced – conclusions first, facts afterwards (if ever).

As for Singapore, you seem to be mistaken. It was a world leader in treatment for HBS in the 70′s,though this is changing.Wikipedia is not the most reliable of sources (to say the least), but it gives links to primary sources which are reliable.

In 1973, Singapore legalized sex-reassignment surgery. A policy was instituted to enable post-operative transsexual people to change the legal gender on their identity cards (but not their birth certificates) and other documents which flowed from that. There was no specific provision in the statutes which allowed the Registrar to do this, so it existed probably only at the level of a policy directive. However, for over 20 years, this policy seemed to have operated smoothly
…
Transgender people were officially granted their wish (to have their marriages validated) on 24 January 1996 via an announcement by MP Abdullah Tarmugi without much public fanfare or opposition.
…
The Gender Identity Clinic (GIC)at the National University Hospital quietly closed in 2001. The official explanation was that the gynaecologist in charge had left for private practice, and without him, the clinic did not have the skills to perform SRS. However, as early as 1987, the Ministry of Health had been directing hospitals to stop doing such operations on foreigners. It also discouraged them for Singaporeans, saying ‘the increased danger of AIDS with such patients poses unnecessary risk to hospital staff’.
…
The transgender community petitioned for the GIC to be reopened and were successful, with the clinic discreetly resuming it services in 2003, helmed by Dr. Ilancheran. However, owing to the discrimination against transgender people in Singapore even within some segments of the medical community, the high financial outlay involved and the necessity for psychological clearance, many preferred to have their operations performed sans the hassles in Bangkok, which had by then become the première centre for SRS.

From Yawningbread.org :

Vitit didn’t seem to be aware that Singapore has recorded the change in status for over 30 years, and recognises marriages of sex-changed persons as well.

As my friend Russell Heng remarked, “Even when Singapore does something right, nobody knows, and they don’t get any credit for it.”

I suspect the Singapore government doesn’t want anyone to know. They may think it embarrassing that there was ever a time when they were liberal-minded. In these days when the government takes pride in their homophobia, this stain on their past behaviour is best hidden away. Just like a woman with a past.

Please do some research and make sure what you know is true actually is true before stating an opinion.

Zoe Brain:
Regarding the use of published statistics regarding homosexuality: “The ten percent figure is false. It stems from the 1948 report by Alfred Kinsey, Sexual Behavior in the Human Male. The study was profoundly flawed, as later psychologists studying sexual behavior have agreed.

Kinsey’s subjects were drawn heavily from convicted criminals

;

1,400 of his 5,300 final subjects (twenty-six percent) were convicted sex offenders–a group that by definition is not representative of normal sexual practices.”

Furthermore, the ten percent figure includes people who are not exclusively homosexual but who only engaged in some homosexual behavior for a period of time and then stopped–people who had gone through a fully or partially homosexual “phase” but who were not long-term homosexuals. Recent and more scientifically accurate studies have shown that only around one to two percent of the population is homosexual.”

Why is this important: It is not sufficient just to read a study and if it favors your views to promote the results as being the end of the debate. I have invested time in my life to designing and analyzing medical research studies and I have learned the hard way that it is critical to rule out all factors that can influence the results of the study, but have no direct bearing on the results. Further, as I stated, I have far from read all the studies on this subject nor do I care to, I don’t have sufficient interest; but I would have to know where they found the transsexuals, as in Singapore such behavior results in the death penalty, and I would have to know a lot of the particulars and like the aforementioned Kinsey study, I suspect I would find it to be highly flawed. I mentioned it before but as to Dr. Barres, in the West no scholar or scientist will get published and they will have their careers ended if they violate liberal orthodoxy by producing results contrary to accepted homosexual dogma.

So, all things being considered, you have not produced any data that would stand up to objective scientific scrutiny thus far; and as it is late, I will sign off for now.

Neiman wrote :

I mentioned it before but as to Dr. Barres, in the West no scholar or scientist will get published and they will have their careers ended if they violate liberal orthodoxy by producing results contrary to accepted homosexual dogma.

Er.. my point was that Dr Ben Barres was born Barbara Barres. TS men don’t stand out, even when in plain sight. Even when someone metaphorically sends up signal rockets, sounds sirens and waves flags to draw your attention to them. Statistically insignificant? I think not. You just refuse to see them.

I freely admit that I’ve made an idiot of myself in public before now, especially when over-tired, so you’re not alone. The important thing is to learn from your embarrassing mistakes.

Hial Hitler!

will: If you’re going to resort to reducio ad Hitlerum, at least spell it correctly! It’s Heil!

WETBACK,

the normal,healthy young people.

You just excluded yourself from your own life. You may be young and healthy but you are so far from anything considered normal ya stink

Besides which, it was my impression that gay guys aren’t terribly interested in girls. I always did have a (shallow) depth rather than a length when at rest, despite the footballer body. The rest was masculinised, that wasn’t. Not completely. But now, after reconstruction, I look normal. Things work now too.

As for me, it’s embarrassing to be a 49 year old virgin. I think the odds of ever finding a “Mr Right” are approximately zero though. No matter, I’ve had true love in my life, and some never get that, no matter how many partners they’ve had.

Making love with someone you’re in love with would be wonderful. But I think that’s not scheduled for me, not in this lifetime. Time will tell. Meanwhile, I have a son to parent.

Some of the Sources – just to show that I’m not trying to blind with science, or baffle with BS:

Sexuality before and after Male to Female Sex Reassignment Surgery (PDF) Lawrence A.(2006)

Transsexuals want out of GLBT SF Bay Times, Oct 12 2006

Changing your sex changes your brain: influences of testosterone and estrogen on adult human brain structure European Journal of Endocrinology, Vol 155 Hulshoff Pol H.E, Cohen-Kettenis P.T., Van Haren N.E.M, Peper J.S., Brans R.G.H, Cahn W., Schnack H.G., Gooren L.G.J., Kahn R.S. (2006)

A Sex Difference in the Human Brain and its Relation to Transsexuality.(PDF) Zhou J.-N, Hofman M.A, Gooren L.J, Swaab D.F (1997)

Male-to-Female Transsexuals Have Female Neuron Numbers in a Limbic Nucleus(PDF) Kruijver F.P.M, Zhou J.-N, Pool C.W., Swaab D.F. (2000)

Frequency of Transsexualism Conway L. (2002)

Harry Benjamin Syndrome Informational Resource

Re Kevin In Perspective Deakin Law Review 2004 vol 22

So much ignorance, so little time…

There are not dozens, but hundreds of different Intersex conditions. To me, the most amazing are not even the 1 in 1 million who are fertile hermaphrodites, it’s the 1 in 100,000 who are serial hermaphrodites. These people usually have 5ARD or 17BHD deficiency (Google it). They are born looking like baby girls, but masculinise at puberty. There are rarer conditions where someone can look male for much of their life (well, mainly male), then start looking female (well, mainly female). That’s about 1 in 3.5 million, we think.

The best estimates are that 1 in 3000 women and 1 in 10,000 men have this condition. The number of FtoMs is not “statistically insignificant”, it’s just that they get less publicity.

68% of TS women are lesbian before surgery, 32% afterwards. So the comment about “it’s always so they can have sex with guys” is contrary to the facts.

A large proportion (24%) are celibate after the surgery. Partly that’s because of the risk of violence, partly because some don’t look so good, and partly because of psychological hangups. 9% are asexual. It’s not about sex, it’s about having a body that matches the brain.

Pychiatric therapy has been as successful at curing Transsexuality as it has been curing epilepsy. Or for that matter, heart defects. It can sometimes help the patient live with it and find coping strategies, that’s all.

Guys, imagine you had a nasty accident, and were bobbitised. A surgeon offers you re-attachment, and a shrink offers you therapy that might help you with it, in an attempt to turn you gay so you don’t mind it so much. Which would you choose? And would it be a real choice?

Now it just so happens that I’m one of those rare 1 in 3.5 million, my transition was pretty much forced on me. April 2005 I had my Gender Dydphoria under control. Women with a male-ish body? Ok, so what? Worse things happen at sea. By the end of July 2005, I was getting homophobic threats, people calling me a “Drag King” and “Butch Dyke”. I no longer “passed” as male. So I transitioned, and the relief was indescribable. The point is, the psych tests showed I was a typical TS woman, and I identify as that, rather than Intersexed. The only difference is that I didn’t have the courage, or desperation, to transition as others do. My case was mild in comparison.

It was also Hellish. I can’t imagine what most go through, nor how they can stand it for so long. Many don’t, of course.

May I suggest that those giving their opinions do a bit of research first? Lynn Conway’s site is a good beginning.

The majority of people with HBS – Harry Benjamin’s Syndrome – commonly called Transsexuality or Congenital Neurlogical Intersex – are very uncomfortable with being lumped in with the GLB and transgendered crowd. Virtually all Intersexed people are too. But we weren’t consulted. Some of us are Gay, others Lesbian, but that has nothing to do with our medical condition. We accept the criticism by the GLBT lobby that we’re out to affirm gender norms, not violate them. Not to be “Gender Outlaws” or exhibitionists, just … men and women with an unusual medical history.

I don’t know. I can quote scientific research papers, statistics, medical articles, even Judicial assessments of the situation, Facts and Figures and they get ignored as Psychobabble, simply because they contradict ignorant prejudice. “I know what I know, it’s common sense, don’t confuse me with the facts!”

I’m used to getting that from the Left, being told that Science is just a patriarchal tool of oppression, no more valid than mere opinion. To get it from the Right is disheartening.

Look, just go down to the library, and borrow a copy of the “Praeger Handbook of Transsexuality”, written by a Professor of Psychology. Or see Prof Conway’s site. Then give an informed opinion. Please.

By the way Zoe,

While there may be people on this site who disagree with you and your lifestyle, and some even strongly disgree, the disgreements here are generally handled on a much more adult basis. Waterhead there is an exception.

Neiman – likwidshoe: I refuse to debate you because in my opinion you are incapable of civil discourse, rather you enagge in demeaning, insulting and rude language which comes from the abundance of hate within you.

The standard answer I get from you when I shine a mirror onto your debate techniques. You’re only letting me know that you can’t hang.

I do wonder what you think the “abundance of hate” is and I also wonder why you see hate where it doesn’t exist. I can only conclude that you are filled with hate Neiman and that this hate of yours colors everything you see. Either that or you’re just a fool who sees things that don’t exist. Both answers make sense to me.

Good luck convincing transexuals that they “chose” their lot in life. As if they wanted a life of hell from illogical people like you who believe that they speak for God. As if they chose being born with a body and a mind that don’t match.

Neiman, you’re a man who projects his hate onto everybody else. How sad. And you’re too damn chickenshit to stand up for your assuming beliefs, that’s why you run away every time I call you on it. That’s why you project your hatred onto others. And that’s why just about everybody here dislikes you.

You’d do yourself well to work on your hatred Neiman. You’d also do yourself well to stop projecting that hate onto others. It’s not healthy.

Wetback is a poor excuse for a human. His mother must have dropped him on his head…

Probably the combo of paint chips, his mother dropping him on his head, and the toxic foundation his home was built on???

Paint chips. I’ll bet it was paint chips. Eating lots of paint chips as a child will do it, too.

Zoe Brain:
The verses you refer to admit the existence of eunuchs, which means a man having his testicles removed or non functioning. However, in studying scripture it is obvious that eunuchs include those who are eunuchs by birth defects not able to function sexually, those forced to become eunuchs, those involved in self-mutilation to become eunuchs, and those choosing to be eunuchs in a spiritual sense to devote themselves to ministry.

It seems to me that if a person capable of having sexual relations chooses gender reassignment, which is self (voluntary) mutilation; and after such surgery are still capable of sexual relations they cannot be defined by these verses or any common definition to be eunuchs. They are simply people having undergone gender reassignment.

In all cases, in Scripture it refers to people unable either physically or by spiritual choice to engage in sexual relations. It also demands that such eunuchs be engaged in daily worship of God and obedience to all his commandments. In such cases these eunuchs are candidates for God’s Grace and salvation. I must add that sexual relations outside marriage (fornication) and/or sodomy or other unnatural sex acts are forbidden even for heterosexuals. We heterosexual Christians are not always conscious of that uncomfortable fact.

Tell me, do you condemn those Transsexual women attracted to other women as Lesbian?

I don’t condemn anyone – ever, as that term has to do with the eternal fate of a person. If they are female as to sexual organs and have gender reassignment to have male genitals, they remain female and yes they are Lesbians (a woman who is sexually attracted to other women)as I understand that term .

What about the many TS women who are 47xxy, not 46xx (F) or 46xy (M)? What about the many TS women who are mosaics (and a few chimerae) so have both 46xx and 46xy cells in their bodies?

There are studies, recent studies, suggesting that such changes involve hormonal therapy while the fetus is in the womb and thus the hormones would cause these changes and it is not therefore a genetic phemomenon. I have always argued that in the cases of so-called genetic connections to homosexuality they have not been determined to be cause or effect.

tragically, a significant number of us were surgically made transsexual by well-meaning surgeons confronted with an infant with ambiguous genitalia. They should wait till they know the gender of the child, that’s usually by age 3-7. But all too often the surgery is performed based on guesswork within the first month of life.

I believe you are talking about someone born a hermaphrodite and were surgically assigned a gender as an infant. If so, I agree that more time is needed to determine more gender characteristics and perhaps allow the person to make that decision for themselves.

you’ve shown something much harder, and more worthy. Tolerance (which does not mean acceptance). Humanity. Hating the Sin, but loving the Sinner. I think He would approve.

Thank you! I would add though that I hate the word tolerance as it has been so often misused to demand that we accept things we believe are unacceptable or be guilty of bigotry, which cuts off all civil discourse.

We are having a civil debate about a complex human and spiritual issue. My objections to your data or points of view are unfortunately, by some here, being falsely interpreted as being hateful of transsexuals or wanting them punished in this life or the hereafter; nothing could be farther from the Truth, I am presenting my views as you are yours; but I wish you no harm to you now or ever. While I maintain the belief that both homosexuality and transsexuality are wrong/sinful, please notice I specified sexual activity not directing my comments to judge the people involved.

If God wanted people to be able to change their gender we would have the tools to do it with.

Uh….surgery?

If I were Rob, I’d have your IP banned. Everyone can have their opinion, but anyone who publicly tells someone else they want to kill them just lost their right to free

If Rob asked me to leave I would cease from posting here with out a grudge.

Will: Apparently you have no idea what your talking about. Ban my IP LOL, what are you going to do ban a whole slew of possible IP addresses, or my Internet Provider itself, along with millions of proxy servers? You do know if you have a static IP address it can be changed don’t you? Of course you didn’t.

And to all my other fans, I LOVE YOU 2

The bottom line is these people should be quarantined.

Camps maybe? With barbed wire and dogs….a Nazi wet dream. You, my little friend, are EXACTLY what mankind should steer clear of.

If we quarantine transsexuals, why not everyone we view as living lives we find unacceptable? How about Evangelical Christians? Of course all liberals should be included, right? There is no end to such actions! Isn’t that kind of what the Nazi’s did to the Jews, Gypsies, Homosexuals and others, and didn’t they call them Concentration camps? I am wondering if you are recommending a Final Solution?

Quarantine is used to keep those with a communicable disease away from those who don’t, to prevent transmission of said disease. While it isn’t appropriate for transsexuals, obviously, neither is it in any way to be compared with concentration camps or The Final Solution. This is pure hyperbole, and unworthy of you, Neiman.

Pil. Thats scary. I was going to post that.

Jesus refused to engage in vain disputations with even the religious leaders of his day. He spoke the Truth and refused to debate the matter.

That’s cute. Neiman is favorably comparing himself to Jesus and he assumes that he holds “the Truth”.

While I am a sinner saved by grace; nonethless, His behavior is good enough for me and when people act, as Jesus mentioned, like swine when pearls of wisdom are cast before them and only turn an attack because that is all they can do, I will not waste my time.

So Neiman is acting like swine when pearls of wisdom are cast before him and the lesson here is that I shouldn’t waste my time with such people.

Zoe Brain on the other hand engages in civil, decent debate and sticks to the issues, never attacking and never engaging in obfuscation…

I give Zoe Brain credit for continuing to talk to someone who insists that she chose her situation. I give her credit for continuing to civilly talk to someone who all but insists that she’s a liar.

One wonders if Neiman will ever drop the assumptions and the holier-than-thou attitude.

Zoe Brain: We are getting tangled up in our own language. Let me try once more from my end and see if at least I can explain myself better.

Let us say someone is born with only male genitals and feel inside they are female and before and after gender reassignment they are sexually attracted to females, damn confusing situation! They were not lesbians as long as they had male genitals and were engaged in sexual intercourse with women – despite their emotional beliefs they are female, and yet absent the male genitals they are still attracted only to women. After surgery are they Lesbians? You are right, that is a tough one! No matter what I say, I reserve the right to think about it some more and possibly restate my position later. If I understand your proposition correctly, physically they are not Lesbians as it is male to female intercourse; but emotionally they feel they are women making love to women and so I guess they are emotional Lesbians.

I disagree on one other point, those born male with sexual attractions to men, once they have had gender reassignment to female they are still sexually attracted to men and are homosexuals. Unfortunately, while I stay away from all pornography there is enough of the male to female transsexuals promoting their transsexual natures in homosexual relationships in various media and so few of female to male or male to female with sexual attractions to women being publicized that you must understand that the former situtaion appears the most prevalent. I don’t trust most statistics, so I will accept your insider information; but I would like to see some really objective data.

Sodomy I don’t consider a sin, just icky and distasteful, again a personal preference.

We’ll agree on the disgusting part and disagree on the sinful part. Zoe I see it as sinful because God condemns the act of sodomy and because it is an unnatural use of the rectum, with resulting health hazards.

I hope I’ve made the case that being TS is not an automatic disqualification from high office.

While the recent case of a Lesbian Police Chief in San Diego might not be common, wherein she forced male fire fighters having religious beliefs against homosexuality to attend a gay pride parade, there is the possibility of such abuse of office. Next, such a police chief or commissioner may choose to not pursue illegal activity at gay bath houses, or gay public sexual intercourse, nudity or crude sexual gestures in public, etcetera. A gay principal and School District Superintendents have promoted homosexual conduct to students with religious beliefs, making them feel bigoted if they object; and in some cases such people in authority in school systems have promoted homosexual how-to seminars, even in elementary schools.

Lastly, for those with religious beliefs, such a high position seems to give the governments imprimatuer to behavior we teach our children is sinful and while we should handle it at home, it is unnecessarily confusing for children. So, my point is it is not as clear a matter as you might prefer. On the other hand, if they are best qualified for the position, I cannot see how they should be denied the job; I would just make sure they kept their sexual preferences out of their professional duties.

Getting tired so I might not stick around very long. I must say we have had a long, decent, civil debate on this issue; and while we cannot hope to agree on everything, I think it has been educational from both sides and has produced a little better understanding and foundation for communication.

Robert108: Perhaps I said it badly, but I was talking about a possible extreme outcome if such thinking were allowed full rein, it could step by step move in that direction.

This person was talking about the quarantine of transsexual just because they are transsexuals, not because some might havecommunicable diseases; so my point was treating one group in a very severe manner simply because of who they are can have unintended results for other people from different groups.

Get it now?

Wetback”

The bottom line is these people should be quarantined.

If we quarantine transsexuals, why not everyone we view as living lives we find unacceptable? How about Evangelical Christians? Of course all liberals should be included, right? There is no end to such actions! Isn’t that kind of what the Nazi’s did to the Jews, Gypsies, Homosexuals and others, and didn’t they call them Concentration camps? I am wondering if you are recommending a Final Solution?

You cannot change hearts by behaving like an indecent, unloving human being; it is like ape when he was fighting for Ron Paul, his anger and hatred were counterproductive to his own ends. I find transsexualism, homosexuality and lesbianism objectionable lifestyle choices and against my Christian beliefs; but I know that you cannot force people to change what they believe and when you refuse to treat them with kindness and decency, you only make them more times your enemy and you get consumed with your own hatred, see the note below and the 3rd and 4th post above for examples, you two have much in common.

likwidshoe: You are only demonstrating you lack of civility, common decency and the ability to engage in polite debate, you are saying absolutely about me you are only exposing the weaknesses in your own character. You and Wetback should form as club!

Neimen wrote:

After surgery are they Lesbians? You are right, that is a tough one! No matter what I say, I reserve the right to think about it some more and possibly restate my position later.

How can anyone rationally do otherwise when posed such a conundrum? It’s not as if you’ve ever considered the question before, and thought of it for years. It would be unreasonable of me or anyone else to force you into a quick, off-the-cuff answer without giving you time to think about it.

If I understand your proposition correctly, physically they are not Lesbians as it is male to female intercourse; but emotionally they feel they are women making love to women and so I guess they are emotional Lesbians.

Exactly. Now, and this is what the crux of feeling TS is like… they feel the same way even when they have male genitalia. Their Church, their Society, their Family pressures them into being what is, to them, Lesbian. That can be awfully confusing in figuring out what is moral. A female brain running on male hormones is often asexual, yet they know that to have children they must pretend to be male, even in the bedroom. Some can. Some can’t. But what should be a relaxed, happy and joyful experience is very often anything but. Most can give, but few can receive, they’re too busy acting, trying to conform to everyone’s expectations. Unless they really are Lesbian, the male hormones can do that to you. It still feels un-natural having a male body though.

Now can you imagine what it must be like for guys? There was about a 1 in 10,000 chance that you would have been in that position. Can you imagine what it must feel like to be “Daddy’s Little Girl” when young? When you know you’re a boy? Can you imagine what it must be like to have everyone expecting you to marry and have sex with another guy?

If you can imagine that, if you can imagine a situation where your only chance of having a son so you can take him fishing, or kite flying, or shooting, is to engage in an act so un-natural, so perverse it is abominable to you? Worse, the female hormones in your system bend your mind, making the prospect seem not so bad… and you know that that is happening, and part of you is silently screaming in horror.

See now why so very many of us suicide to stop the torment?

It would be only slightly easier if you were gay. Gay men are Men, not Women. Their brains are male, not female. Being attracted to another guy would seem comfortable, but not having a male body too would be hideous.

I must say we have had a long, decent, civil debate on this issue; and while we cannot hope to agree on everything, I think it has been educational from both sides and has produced a little better understanding and foundation for communication.

Absolutely. And while I appreciate the very human support given me here by various posters, to me you have shown not a shred of hate. I may have been a little vexed at your seeming obtuseness at times, but I’m guilty of having strongly held beliefs myself.

To those who think Niemen here showed hate – consider how you would react if a self-confessed paedophile activist started posting. Someone who your every instinct told you was sick, perverted, evil, and probably insane. Could you have shown the courtesy to another Human Being that Nieman has? For you see, his whole world view depended on seeing me as being at best sick, at worst perverted. Try to see things from his viewpoint.

We still disagree, but he’s never been discourteous. Had our positions been reversed, I hope that I would have the same degree of politeness.

Ok, he can be maddeningly obtuse, stubborn, recalcitrant… but those of us who have survived 40 years of being TS tend to be a little strong-minded too.

If Nieman had been born TS, with 46xx (Female) chromosomes, I have no idea what he’d do. Transition early, and let a misunderstanding world do what it may? Or tough it out, being the best wife and mother any Man could be? I don’t know. I do know that whatever course he’d decide in, it would be because he felt it was Right. Not comfortable, nor convenient, but Right.

Maybe he’s end up on Lynn Conway’s Transsexual Men’s Successes page. I hope he has a look at that. Then has a think about his beliefs. Because if he’s right, those men are actually girls, and any man sleeping with one would be having straight, not gay, sex.

As for Wetback – perhaps he might like to see the TS Women’s Successes site, and ponder just how much talent would be “Quarantined” or “Re-settled in the East”. There are 10′s of thousands of us in the US alone. But because of people like Wetback, most of us are “Stealth”. Only a few are stupid brave enough to not hide our past.

Hi Neiman! It seems we have a few points of agreement. That surgical intervention on Intersexed children should wait till we know what gender they are, so we don’t surgically create transsexuals. That being TS is certainly not completely genetic, that there is a large foetal environmental component and quite possibly no genetic cause at all. Both propositions are backed up by mountains of evidence – even if it does come from Lefties sometimes.

I also agree that fornication is sinful, even though practiced almost universally, but that’s me. Sodomy I don’t consider a sin, just icky and distasteful, again a personal preference. Onanism – that is coitus interruptus not masturbation, is probably not a sin, as it was prohibited by the same kind of “old law” that prohibits wearing polycotton shirts, and requires the death of kids who mouth off at their parents.

I’m actually revoltingly conventional and staid, which I think makes my whole situation quite ironic. Homophobic too, but I never let my ugly little prejudice there stop me from treating people as people, not cyphers or things.

If they are female as to sexual organs and have gender reassignment to have male genitals, they remain female and yes they are Lesbians (a woman who is sexually attracted to other women)as I understand that term .

I referred to TS women. That is, those whose birth certificates said “male”, and who usually have 46xy chromosomes. After sex reassignment, if they retain their attraction to other women, as a substantial fraction do, are they now lesbian? They are quite capable of sexual relations, just in a lesbian fashion. Some in fact would never have been capable of orgasm with male genitalia, it feels so terribly perverse to have it. Others would never have had normal male genitalia in the first place.

Sorry to confuse you with such difficult cases, but they do happen, and are not that uncommon. The situation by its very nature is confusing.

My point is, that these women born male aren’t attracted to guys at all. Some are butch, others femme, but they’re all lesbian. To say that they had surgery so they can engage in “sex with other guys” shows a truly profound level of misunderstanding, as well as an astonishing ability to ignore inconvenient facts.

Now there’s a case for saying that TS women who are attracted to men are gay, and those attracted to women are lesbian, so they should remain celibate. I’m not saying it’s a good case though, it seems logically inconsistent.

And now for something completely different: getting back on track with the main topic. I hope I’ve made the case that being TS is not an automatic disqualification from high office. Sure, being TS is terribly traumatising. So is being a POW, or being raped, or being a Cancer survivor. None of those are usually considered disqualifiers, so why should this one be?

Whether the woman concerned is the best person for the job, I don’t know. But being TS has at least as many advantages as disadvantages when it comes to qualifying for the position.

ANNA: you mean Heaven?

Wetback: We cannot debate Scripture here, I have engaged in incredibly lengthy debates with very reputable biblical scholars from around the world, bring exacting interpretations to every word, and this has rarely produced even the most minute change of mind.

“This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief.” I Timothy 1:15

“For the Son of man is come to seek and save that which is lost.” Luke 19:10

The Bible tells us the ‘whosever” believes in Him are saved, tell me which persons ‘whosoever’ does not include? You could not be more wrong, Israel had killed the prophets and when they rejected Christ, Salvation came unto the whole world. Jesus then paid the full price for every sin of every human being that ever would live, that as many as would believe that simple Truth and accept God’s Pardon in Christ, would be saved. All of those not saved will have done so out of their own free will rejection of God’s Grace.

When Christ encountered the worst sinners, like Paul, a man much worse than any TS, he persecuted, tortured and killed Christians; him he saved and appointed an Apostle to the Gentiles. When He encountered those with Leprosy, them He healed and saved. Jesus is working today through His Spirit in men to bring the Gospel of Salvation to every human being; and then and only then, will He return as Judge. Until then, He ministers in Love (Mercy) and just like when He walked upon this earth, He still spends His time with the worst sinners, He loves them just Aas much as the most faithful saint.

likwid: I’m not sure about this, but it seems to me that the differences between the male and female brains are physiological, rather than anatomical. As I remember, anatomy deals with physical structure, while physiology deals with function.

It’s both. The physical differences start in the womb. Estrogen and testosterone are powerfully molding hormones. If you or I were to get estrogen shots, our brains would immediately start physically changing.

It’s also scientifically understood that male brains are both bigger in physical size and more functional in cognitive capability. Those poor female brains are better wired for womenly duties such as cooking, housecleaning and crying at stupid movies.

Hah! I kid on the last paragraph.

Doc Dave: In his original post on this issue, Wetback wanted all TS quarantined; meaning in the absence of their being diagnosed with a communicable disease, they were to suffer enforced isolation solely for social or political reasons. He didn’t specify camps, hospitals, homes and etcetera, nor did he mention they had been diagnosed with any communicable disease. Therefore, in the absence of some qualifications it was an extreme suggestion and if any state would be willing to forcefully isolate (imprison) TS people solely because they are different, then what is to prevent them from isolating another group and another until your group is included?

As to AIDS or any sexually transmitted disease, I am troubled when people in the homosexual or heterosexual community are not required to be registered and their sexual partners contacted once they are diagnosed. However, that is not quarantine as it was up until about 05-06 decades ago, when signs were posted on homes or towns and armed people were assigned to stop anyone violating that quarantine. If AIDs or other STD’s could be transmitted in the air, water or the food supply, other than a deliberate act of terrorism, then I would support quarantines, until then I just want people registered and their partners contacted.

As to Wetback’s concern that their very existence poses a moral risk to our children and what their public acting out says about the moral decline of America. If evil were that easy to deal with, maybe it is worth considering; but, there are a host of things we believe are immoral, evil in our world today like pornography even on our cable television at home, which children can easily access and it does pollute their souls to be sure. So, do we also quarantine all pornographers, distributors of pornography, those who act in pornographic films, those who air pornography, those who watch it? Where does it end? If we are to follow this course, then everyone, including me, should be quarantined along with Transsexuals, because I am a sinner as well? I am sorry to be so disagreeable, but no matter how benign you think Wetbacks suggestion was, and I have been attacked for seeing its extreme implications, it is simply unworkable, inhumane and unChristian.

Lastly as a Christian, when all the TS are quarantined how do we demonstrate the love of Christ and have an effective witness when we have forced them out of our society? Would Jesus quarantine TS (cast them out) or would He love them just like they are and through love hopefully bring some of them to Salvation? If He would just love them, how can any Christian do less?

Um.. HG.. don’t know how to tell you this… but I’m Australian

That changes nothing.

I like the attempt to equate a geographical assumption with the accuracy of my opinion on sexuality. The two are hardly related. Such tactics are typical of lefty political debate

Really, though, sarcasm aside, I’ve never liked loudmouthed bullies, especially those who are all mouth and no brain.

Because I recognize that Zoe had the class to engage in a conversation on a controversial subject without resorting to the idiotic name calling wetback did doesn’t mean I share any of her proclivities.

I do, however, respect anyone who can present a rational argument when faced with fools like you.

Will:

I would consider him more liberal than conservative in terms of his compassion, love for the poor, the sinner and the cast-aways of society.

1. That is your personal, biased interpretation of both Christ and conservatives. I believe in both cases you are wholly wrong. 2. T. Austin Sparks refers to the otherness of Christ, He is not just different or opposite, He is totally other than we are in every way. He was apolitical and while He was compassionate He commands us to take up our cross daily, putting the desires of the flesh under the control of the Spirit and to learn the fellowship of His sufferings, sufferings He could relieve but for our good and His glory He lovingly allows us to endure. 3. Conservatives are not heartless and absent compassion at all, that is just the lie the left has sold the public for decades. Democrats out of a misplaced sense of compassion want to feed the hungry man every day, which makes the man wholly dependent upon them for food each day. Conservatives in compassion for that same man in need wants to give each man the tools necessary to earn his own bread to feed himself and his family for a lifetime and not have to depend on the government or any political party. Liberal compassion breeds dependency, poverty and contempt. Conservative compassion makes men (women too) independent, prosperous and happy.

Do you remember Christ’s best friends? A former tax collector and a former prostitute.

Where does it say they were His best friends? John was the Apostle He loved according to Scripture, Peter was the one chosen to be the chief Apostle and Paul His former enemy was given the greatest grace and ministry after Christ’s resurrection. Yes He dearly loved Matthew and Mary Magdalene as He does all His disciples (children), but I find no warrant whatsoever in scripture to support your best friends statement.

Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me. But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me. I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but by me.

Neiman: If you want to debate your point biblically, using the New Testament, Jesus came to what? separate didn’t He? Who was He sent for? the lost sheep of the house of Israel right? Not everybody.Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

Take the Aids epidemic for instance, Anyone with a half of brain would have to agree that they should all be quarantined.

Or neutered.

Wetback wrote:

Pilgrim: you remind me of that Jew who wrote “Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, The wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me. I lift my lamp beside the golden door.” And the other Jew who got it put on the statue of liberty.

Oh, someone else with Jews on the brain.
As I said, all Hat, no Cattle.
Last month I was at Haifa Naval Base, actually doing something concrete to help.
You’re here, impotently posting hate.
Suits me.

“I Was Born This Way”

Just another way of saying “The devil made me do it”. When people that are born with physical and/or mental handicaps, we applaud them when they manage to overcome them. Not so with the homosexuals who exalt over their differences instead of trying to do something about them.

Now now WETBACK, there is enough room in the SAB sandbox for all of us to play nicely. That is, if we put a lil’ effort into anyway!

Besides, you know, dang well, you goin’ to hell doesn’t come as a shock to you

Wetback: Isn’t odd that you are the only one under this thread to mention oral copulation:

I would of asked you, how much cock did you suck last night?

Why do YOU have such a preoccupation with people engaging in oral stimulation of another mans penis? Are we witnessing some latent homosexual desires on your part? Oftentimes anger at the sexual actions of someone else betrays a hidden desire to engage in those same actions. Maybe you better do a little soul searching!

Unknown big mouth: Affection means to have a fond (liking somebody) or tender (kind & sympathetic) feeling toward somebody or something. So, if you find a TS or gay person that are pleasant to be around, civil, decent in their personal and professional interactions, to feel affection or fond feelings for that person is what, wrong? Whenever you feel affection for anyone, does that always translate to sexual feelings for them or you have a tendency towards their sexual proclivities? How about your father, did you feel affection towards him, expressed in sexual desire?

My point is that to accuse someone of having affection for someone else and to equate that with sexuality is stupid!

What about the fact that someone is so confused about their own sexuality. I mean it isn’t exactly rocket science to recognize your penis means you’re male. He obviously enjoyed sex with women and knocked one up, something only a male could do.

You may say the sexuality isn’t a issue, but someone this confused about their own nature isn’t someone I would choose to head up a police department.

As for the apparant boldness of the individual, it looks more like defiance to me. Rashly defying nature and the laws of such is no virtue in my book.

Wetback: I didn’t call you anything, I was just asking questions about your male to male oral sex preoccupation. Did I hit a sensitive nerve? I believe teaching our children God’s path at home and giving them over to the Lord’s protection by daily prayer is more than sufficient to protect them.

HG: If you look at all my posts, I never agreed that TS or homosexuality was in any way normative, healthy and I still maintained that activity was sinful and not approved by the Lord. On the other hand, extending God’s love, not wanting to harm people caught up in these lifestyles or as Wetback suggests quarantine (imprison) them. I never agreed this person was setting the right moral example and I indicated how such people holding some offices could actually cause more harm.

WETBACK, If my name was Antonio you wouldn’t have noticed anything of the sort.
I was merely pointing out that when it comes to the pearly gates it shall be moi, on the inside, waving to you on that path of hot coals leading to hell

It’s not easy sometimes. But support from people like you makes it far easier. Thanks.

It’s not so much that I support you, just that I’d rather see you treated like any other human being (which may not be much of an improvement, but still).

In any regard, I support what you’re doing here. You’ve been unfailingly polite and informative against the many ugly personal and character attacks upon you. I don’t know how you do it, but I admire your maturity.

And I take back my earlier comment saying that it’s not worth it. You may not change Neiman’s mind, but you could help bring about an understanding with the many silent readers this site gets. You never really know how far your words will reach. So keep on doing what you’re doing please. And take a gander at the rest of the site if you would so kindly. I’ve read some of your writings at your blog, and I like what I saw. Speaking of that, the post titled, “Tolerance and Acceptance” that spoke, in part, of the liberal orthodoxy that currently reigns at college campuses was excellent. More of that please!

we don’t want someone else’s sexuality, especially if it’s not normal sexuality, pushed in our faces.

How do you define normal? Normal for you may not be normal for everyone else.
For some, sex other than in the missionary position is a no-no and anyone who opts for anything else is a sexual pervert. It’s all subjective.
Do you object to homosexuals in office? Is this too in-your-face? Or (as someone else noted) do you object to adulterers and womanisers?
Some people may object to a naturalised American becoming Governor of California.
It should be the person and their good works (or lack of them) that shapes your opinion of them, not what they look like. I didn’t think you were that shallow!

However, that is beside the point.

Gender dysphoria or Transexualism is not (as we have heard) generally an issue of sexuality.

I was merely pointing out that when it comes to the pearly gates it shall be moi, on the inside, waving to you on that path of hot coals leading to hell

Anna: And I will blow a kiss to you as the tears of seeing me run down your cheeks.

Neiman: Do you believe that God has already chosen, or do You believe it is up to us to choose God?

likwid: I’m not sure about this, but it seems to me that the differences between the male and female brains are physiological, rather than anatomical. As I remember, anatomy deals with physical structure, while physiology deals with function.
The difference is that physiology is addressable, at least to some extent, while anatomy is fixed by DNA.

“unknown” said, Pilgrim, while following this thread, it would lead one to believe you’re having affectionate feelings toward Zoe. Could it be that you are living life in a closet?

Why are you using the e-mail of MFainaru-Wada@sfchronicle.com, which happens to be San Francisco Chronicle reporter Mark Fainaru-Wada’s e-mail address?

Are you Mark Fainaru-Wada? Why are you insinuating that someone is living “life in a closet”? Is this the San Franciscan “tolerance” that we hear so much about?

likwidshoe wrote:

Good luck changing that mindset Zoe. Personally, I don’t even think it’s worth the effort. Why it’s not worth it: he’s attributed false motive to your changes (“based solely on sexual desire”), denies your corrections, calls you a sinner, insists that this was all your choice, and insists that “moral people” shouldn’t approve of you. Neiman is backed by “God”, dontcha know, and he will never change his mind.

Thanks so much for your support. I think you’re being a little hard on Neiman though. Yes, he said that stuff, but you must take into account his background.

The only exposure he’s had to TS people has been to the Jerry Springer Performing Seals, the “Out and Proud” in-your-face GenderBenders and Lefty Queer Activists. He’s had second or third hand reports about “SheMale Porn”, and news reports of criminals in jail wanting public funding for treatment. He had little knowledge, and less interest in these crazies, irrational leftists and attention-seeking freaks.

He doesn’t know, or didn’t know, about the neurosurgeons, the Rocket Scientists, the many dozens of Silver Star winners in the military, simply because we don’t seek, but shun publicity. Suddenly he’s confronted with the assertion that there are not dozens of us, but tens of thousands of us. Some doctors, some scientists, some ministers, and many, many genuine war heroines. This goes against everything he knows.

I can’t blame him. 3 years ago, I felt the same. Transition was for showgirls, not Geek Girls like me. Having a “sex change” was out of the question, why, it was more likely I’d convert to Marxism!

Since April 2005, I’ve had to learn a lot.

Schroer is extraordinarily well-qualified for the job in question, terrorism research analyst with the Congressional Research Service, a division of the Library. She is a 25-year military veteran, having served in “numerous critical command and staff positions in the Armored Cavalry, Airborne, Special Forces and Special Operations Units, and in combat operations in Panama, Haiti, and Rwanda.” She is highly educated, with relevant advanced degrees, and spend the last portion of her military career with the U.S. Special Operations Command, an outfit specifically charged with planning and executing special operations against terrorists. After the 9/11/2001 terrorist attacks against the U.S., she was appointed director of a special classified organization to track and target “high-threat international terrorist organizations,” and in that position she was analyzing “highly sensitive intelligence reports” and briefing top security officials.

She’s not unusual. Also not unusual is the employer deciding not to hire her when she told them she was TS.

It has its funny side. As a Scumbag Contractor who’s spent some time on subs, I’m an honourary bubblehead. A group of us with submarine experience sometimes chat amongst ourselves.

It’s hilarious when one guy hits on one of us, and is boasting of his heroic exploits in Subs, when we’ve had more war patrols than he’s had hot feeds.

It has its tragic side too. A gal I know managed to nurse the 2/3 of the A-10 she was piloting that was left after it was hit by an Iraqi SAM back to a crash landing in Gulf War I. She got a Silver Star for that. Now by court order she must bind up her boobs and dress in unconvincing male drag every time she sees her son.

Neiman has suddenly been shown things he knows cannot exist. He’s instinctively reacted with tolerance, while remaining highly sceptical. My aim is not to ram my opinions down anyones’ gullets. It is merely to elucidate the medical facts, and to be. And just by existing, to cause people to re-evaluate their opinions in the face of the facts. I cannot change their minds; only they can do that. And it takes time.

Frederick Douglas did far more for Civil Rights than Malcolm X. Just by being himself.

It’s not easy sometimes. But support from people like you makes it far easier. Thanks.

For some, sex other than in the missionary position is a no-no and anyone who opts for anything else is a sexual pervert. It’s all subjective.

It’s quite simple for me, my friend. Sex is for the bedroom, leave it there. Period. Don’t advertise it, don’t put it on billboards, and don’t complain about it.

Neiman, I agree with most of what you say.
We’re not sure what causes TS. We do know that exposure to cross-gendered hormones in the womb is one cause. It’s sufficient, but may not be necessary.
Personally, I feel the evidence for multiple causes is strong. The same as for other Intersex conditions.
The fact that so many TS people have other Intersex conditions too suggests a common cause.

Where I disagree with you is in the reversibility. I had enough Androgen insensitivity so that any effective therapeutic dose of testosterone would have likely caused liver failure. It would only have affected my body, not my brain. That’s hard-wired in the womb, and although hormones do cause re-wiring, there are limits. My brain was already as masculine as it was ever going to be, and that wasn’t much. It works far better, and I’m far more comfortable, now that I have a blood chemistry that matches the brain’s configuration.

I sent you personal data privately, because my own situation is by no means typical, and should not be construed to be normal in any way.

As you can see from the photos, something extremely odd happened. Changes from hormones just cannot happen that fast. I had the equivalent of 3 years change in 3 months. The only hypothesis we have that fits the facts involves two separate and quite common Intersex genetic mutations, which in turn cause an anomalous reaction to a particular medication.

I was lucky to survive. At one stage, the odds against that were pretty high.

Most TS people have at least some ability to control the pace of the change, even if for psychological reasons they feel compelled to transition. I didn’t feel the compulsion as strongly as that, but my body changed anyway, as happens in some Intersex conditions. I had no control over the timing, and it was going to happen whether I liked it or not.

Fortunately I’m TS, so I liked it.

Anyway, normalising hormone therapy has been tried to cure TS. As has Lobotoby, Leucotomy, Electro-convulsive therapy, anti-psychotics, MAO and SSR inhibitors, group therapy and so on.

The “best” that can be hoped for is to allow the person concerned to live with genitals of the wrong sex without too much discomfort. Some can, though it gets worse with age, and they transition at age 55 rather than 35. Or die. A lot do that, substance abuse, suicide, the discomfort is terrible. The usual anti-depressants don’t work. There have been exactly zero peer-reviewed cases followed up in the long term that showed a “cure” without surgery. There probably are some, but none that we know of definitely.

The only therapy that has shown consistent, reliable improvement is surgery. The worst results (n=12), where the surgery was successful only 1/3 of the time, still show 2/3 of the patients had no regrets 5 years later. The figures for n=1700 over 30 years showed 97% had no regrets.

Now on to something completely different. Notice how just being civil to me can cause you to be labelled “N..ger Lover” or the equivalent? Think about that.

Really, folks, I was gonna stay out of this and leave poor wetback alone to dwell in whatever dark places – or under whatever rocks – he finds himself. But, since I can resist anything but temptation I just can’t seem to keep myself from putting this little shitweasel in his place.

I’m beginning to think Pilgrim suffers from the same disorder as Zoe, having the brain of a female. Perhaps that is the reason He is so agitated about my comments.

Lighten up Pilgrim, there are a few comforters here who are willing to give you that big hug your yearning for.

Now, nudge wetback awake and whisper in his ear that you put that mean ol’ Pilgrim in his place. Then you can both go play with your gerbils.

Pilgrim: I don’t need anyone to help me fight my battles, and if I have something to say, it will be posted under WETBACK. I don’t play childish games. And if I had any notion that your a flamer I would of asked you, how cock did you suck last night.

resorting to the idiotic name calling wetback did doesn’t mean I share any of her proclivities

Show me one post where I singled one person out and called them a name. This is what you have done to me, or are you that blind you can’t see your own actions?

Great, now I’m the homo. Well then I guess I’ll see the rest of them in Hell, along with all you other people who did not protect God’s children.

I couldn’t possibly be any more socially conservative. I have worked feverishly to elect strong conservatives and patrol the abortion mill sidewalks every week. I helped us get the marriage amendment passed. I wrote stinging editorials against Dorgan’s cloning bill and support for gay marriage.

But listening to people like wetback vocally state in public announce that he wants to kill people like Zoe is exactly the reason why San Francisco Nancy Pelosi liberals exist today. They listen to some of you whacks go on about how these people should “burn in hell” because they were born 1/2 male and 1/2 female.

But as a Christian and Catholic, I have been taught that just because you were born with a mind and body built to kill and rape people, doesn’t give you a free ticket to do so. That’s what makes us different from animals.

Having homosexual/transexual feelings is not a sin. Acting out or promoting immoral sex, straight or gay is what I have a problem with.

Wetback, I find your grammar more disturbing than anything you’ve said. I’ve heard worse (here).

Will, if the person is not Christian and lives in a secular country (like the US), then who defines the morals?

also – But, being born male with no other female anatomy…

“No other female anatomy”? What about the brain?

Neiman, it was not I who introduced sexuality to the discourse. There have been societies that have embraced what you describe as sexual perversions and others that have and still do tolerate them. Thank goodness! (BTW, our sexual organs fit together in so many more marvellous ways ways than those intended for procreation.)
Can you not see the difference between intolerance for child molesters (causing harm to innocents) and that for transsexuals (innocents themselves)?
If one person thinks that another is morally inferior for not following a particular god’s word, is he not, in some way deluded?

This constant mentioning of the brain in various posts by you and others,
as if thinking is solely a electro-chemical process needs to be dealt with:
“world famous neurosurgeon Wilder Penfield declared, “The mind is independent of the brain. The brain is a computer, but it is programmed by something that is outside itself, the mind.” “All purposeful acts begin
with a thought that does not exist as a physical part of the bodily organ, the brain. Ideas are held in the mind. The brain is physical but the mind
is not.

Absolutely. We have a choice whether or not to act on those thoughts, so human behavior is not genetically determined.
Though I might be strongly tempted to shoot the driver of the car that just cut me off on the freeway, as a civilized human being, I must resist that temptation. Not just for my own good and that of the driver in question, but for the structure of society and civilization in general. We are always responsible for what we choose to do and not to do.

Zoe Brain:

Now on to something completely different. Notice how just being civil to me can cause you to be labelled “N..ger Lover” or the equivalent? Think about that.

Yes, I have noticed, you and I can hold a civil conversation and enjoy our debates, while for some strange reason I get attacked, especially by Likwidshoe who seems to hate my Christian faith. It doesn’t matter though, I won’t let them incite me to strike back.

You do seem to have a very unique situation and all I can say about your rapid changes under female hormones is that exceptions don’t make rules in science. I am not questioning the reality of your situation, only if it has much if any bearing, at least for now, on the research and various conclusions about TS generally.

I think the rest of my body is probably 46xy too. Maybe 70% chance. Not that it matters if it isn’t. I had about as good a life pretending to be a guy as any woman could. Before my endocrine system went berserk, I would have done anything to safeguard my son, and my marriage of 26 years. Anything.

I believe you are absolutely sincere in those comments and I applaud that devotion to both your marriage and your son.

(To Likwidshoe) Thanks so much for your support. I think you’re being a little hard on Neiman though. Yes, he said that stuff, but you must take into account his background.

This is a dangerous point in our conversations. A. In this comment, it appears to me that you implied I was ignorant because of my ‘background,’ yet I have offered references to medical studies and have tried to counter many of your assertions with sound scientific arguments. B. I don’t mind Likwidsoe’s hatred of me or my Christian faith, God says we all have Free Will, which accounts for the evil around us, as we most often choose to disobey God’s Commandments and live for ourselves, so Likwidshoe or anyone has the freedom to reject God and His Word. Nonethless, I will not stay silent and allow it or the Lord to be denigrated so that others may think themselves superior or to try by their hatred to reduce Christianity to a fable. When you suggested to Likwidshoe that one had to take my [Christian] background into account, presumably the cause my ignorance on this subject, then I am offended as I hardly think I am completely ignorant on the subject of TS and I still maintain that living contrary to the gender of your genitalia is contrary to God’s desire for your life and if that is not faced then I sincerely believe there is spiritual danger in your life.

This constant mentioning of the brain in various posts by you and others, as if thinking is solely a electro-chemical process needs to be dealt with: “world famous neurosurgeon Wilder Penfield declared, “The mind is independent of the brain. The brain is a computer, but it is programmed by something that is outside itself, the mind.” “All purposeful acts begin with a thought that does not exist as a physical part of the bodily organ, the brain. Ideas are held in the mind. The brain is physical but the mind is not. Quite clearly, thoughts precede and cause neural activity in the brain. They do not result from anything happening in the physical brain, nor can thinking be explained on that basis. Thoughts about truth or justice, for example, could not originate through any physical stimulus (and thus could not result from any evolutionary process), because they are totally unrelated to any physical quality such as weight, texture, taste or smell.”

I could go on but that would be pointless for the atheists here, on Likwidshoe’s part these are only fodder for his hateful diatribes and I refuse to engage him in vain disputations.

I enjoy your posts and our discussions and I believe you are honestly struggling over this very real situation in your life; but if you are going to join with Likwidshoe in intimating that I am intellectually inferior or ignorant because of my strong Christian faith, or as you did in this comment accuse me of saying things I have not said, then we should stop our commenting to one another on this thread. I am trying to be understanding of your situation, never to be unkind to you, to accept your situation and your struggles, while never agreeing that the science is anywhere near determinative regarding the cause of TS, never agreeing that this is not a lifestyle choice, and always believing that this situation is spiritual in nature and that this spiritual defect can still be reversed by the same loving Lord that promises a new spirit to everyone that believes in Him.

Read what Likwidshoe and others say here when attacking me and also my posts to you; and then determine which of us are saying hateful, mean things to others and which of us are, while being honest in our opinions, always striving to be kind, considerate and civil.

uknown,

Okay, you got me. Thanks for the careful psychoanalysis. I coulda paid a lot of money for that but you nailed it right off. I’m free! Thanks.

Now, nudge wetback awake and whisper in his ear that you put that mean ol’ Pilgrim in his place. Then you can both go play with your gerbils.

It’s not so much that I support you, just that I’d rather see you treated like any other human being (which may not be much of an improvement, but still).

Exactly. Well said.

Neiman (continued because of that stupid 5000 character limit) – I could go on but that would be pointless for the atheists here, on Likwidshoe’s part these are only fodder for his hateful diatribes and I refuse to engage him in vain disputations.

Can you tell me exactly what was supposedly “hateful” in my comments? I honestly don’t know. I have a hunch that you don’t either. You can easily point out some rude comments of mine, just as I can yours. But hateful? Give it a rest.

I enjoy your posts and our discussions and I believe you are honestly struggling over this very real situation in your life; but if you are going to join with Likwidshoe in intimating that I am intellectually inferior or ignorant because of my strong Christian faith…

Well, why not? You do that to Zoe. She says that there was no motive of sexual desire. Ahh,..you just ignore that and restate it. You insist that Zoe is engaging in a “lifestyle choice”. Zoe insists otherwise and has laid out some personal information refuting this assertion. You ignore that as well. That’s all quite insulting Neiman. Are you trying to be rude to Zoe? You’re not just intimating that Zoe is ignorant of her own situation, you’re pretty much out-right saying it by attributing motives to her that she keeps on denying. What’s your deal Neiman? Why are you doing this?

I am trying to be understanding of your situation, never to be unkind to you…

So why do you keep on denying what she is saying? It’s not like you have a leg to stand on here either. You insist one thing, Zoe corrects the record, you restate your old tired assertion. Your script hasn’t changed throughout this thread.

…never agreeing that this is not a lifestyle choice…

Well there you go. Neiman says to Zoe, “you’re a liar. But I’m saying this nicely!”

…this spiritual defect can still be reversed by the same loving Lord that promises a new spirit to everyone that believes in Him.

Loving Lord, loving Lord – the children’s cancer ward is calling. They want to know where the loving Lord is at. He’s absent from the children’s cancer ward. Please call in loving Lord.

Read what Likwidshoe and others say here when attacking me…

Oh goodness. You’re such a victim.

…and then determine which of us are saying hateful, mean things to others and which of us are, while being honest in our opinions, always striving to be kind, considerate and civil.

Yeah Zoe. Who are you going to pick? The guy who insists that you’re a big fat liar or the other guy who keeps on bugging the assuming ass?

Wow. Hard choice. And a stupid game. High school was nearly 50 years ago for you Neiman. It’s time to move on from those childish games.

Proof, that’s a pretty naive statement, even for you. Anybody who wants to kill a group of innocent people is more than worthy of being compared to Hitler.

Where do you think this sort of sick Virginia Tech shit starts? Do we have to wait until Wetback follows through on his intentions before we take him seriously?

Here we go with this hate speech shit, isn’t that just like a liberal. I’m guilty before I even commit a crime.

Hey Will:

I know the Bible got to be on your list to burn along with Mein Kampf as hate literature.

Like Proof insultingly pointed out, I wish I was half as intelligent as Hitler was and yes I do admire him.

WETBACK is an Internet geek who alienates people with his poor grammar and crackpot ideas, who might not be able to find his way out of his Mom’s basement.

Actually the only part that is true here is my poor grammar, I don’t think it alienates people though, but maybe. Anyway thanks for thinking of me.

HG wrote:

I like the attempt to equate a geographical assumption with the accuracy of my opinion on sexuality.

Did you? I didn’t think you would. Hardly an “assumption” anyway, for if you’d read my posts it was obvious. So either you’re making opinions without looking at the data, or are showing carelessness.

The two are hardly related.

Carelessness or lack of observation in one area though does cast doubt on others. That’s why I thought it best to leave it up to others to decide whether it had any bearing or not. In this particular case, I think it does, but I’m hardly unbiased.

Such tactics are typical of lefty political debate.

Right, that’s it. You can call me late for dinner, but don’t compare me with Lefties. That’s fighting talk.

Note to self: what this place needs is some <humour> and <sarcasm> tags.

Wetback…

There there….calm down. Have a Jew burning fantasy and settle down. Shhhhh. Better now? That’s a good little Nazi. Listen to Zoe’s advice. Ironic that the person you’d like to exterminate is a better human being than you, isn’t it?

But listening to people like wetback vocally state in public announce that he wants to kill people like Zoe is exactly the reason why San Francisco Nancy Pelosi liberals exist today. They listen to some of you whacks go on about how these people should “burn in hell” because they were born 1/2 male and 1/2 female.

I stand by what I said in the name of every healthy civilization. What I prescribe is a cheap and effective solution to deal with the dangers of the lifestyle that these people display.

If any of you suggest that we ought to ship them to some island giving them the opportunity to live or die by there own hands, then I will agree to this so long as we wash our hands of them once they get dropped off there.

If you feel the need to send gifts there fine, but don’t tell me I or anyone should be required to do the same.

To insist that these types of people should be treated equally is erroneous. And to allow them to be amongst young healthy impressionable children is a sin.

You may not like what I have to say, but it is the truth. You people who support these people are underminingly destroying a healthy moral society.

What a completely juvenile and inaccurate thing for any thinking, decent, civil human being to say to anyone!

Neiman, you’re also thinking we should have ethnic cleansing? Or you don’t think the holocaust happened? I’m confused…

Neiman asserts, Likwidshoe: You should be very happy, despite my attempts to engage in long civil, respectful, honest…

Civil, respectful and honest does not equal attributing false motives and then denying the corrections.

…Zoe has chosen you as her champion…

Let’s not get carried away.

…and even agrees with your view that Christians are beneath contempt for their gross, redneck ignorance about everything.

Oh goodness. Let’s make up some more shit.

You better watch yourself Neiman. My mother is a Christian and I won’t stand for you to talk that kind of shit on her.

I stated above that I find the Christian faith to be silly, nonsensical and a bit insulting. I never once stated “beneath contempt” or “redneck”. So why did you say it? Why are you lying about me Neiman?

Maybe this is where you think I’m hateful – with things that I have never said.

You are incredibly intolerant of any opinions but your own and dismiss any contrary information…

I’ve heard this from you before, but when asked, you never give examples. Why is that?

…even when it is backed up by credible scienitific data or solid intellectual arguements, as always being wholly inferior to your own greatly superior human intellect over every other human being on earth.

Can we do less with this kind of garbage talk? It isn’t helping.

I am quite frankly shocked that there is not a Likwidshoe Idol, Altar and religion as such a vastly superior intellect as your own deserves worship…

Haha! Funny dude.

…except as an atheist you probably would reject it as hypocritical on your part.

I’m not an atheist. Atheists believe that there is/are no God/gods/higher power/afterlife. This is their faith.

By contrast, agnostics grant the possibility of all or some of the above. Personally, I grant the possibility of just about anything. To me, just the fact that we exist and are conversing back and forth is an amazing thing that is hard to believe. I place all possibilities of an afterlife/God/gods/nothing into the equally preposterous category. And yet, one or more of them are true. I’m an agnostic.

I will say one thing though – I’m no god and the thought of worshiping idols creeps me out.

I did not read one word of your posts above, because in my opinion you are simply incapable of civil, reasonable debate.

HA! You say this every time I call out your debating techniques. In fact, you’ve already said it in this thread. So who are you kidding, eh? We both know that you’re reading and we both know that you’re just saying this to avoid answering some of my questions.

You have that right, you have the right to hate Christians and dismiss Christianity as a fable of the weak minded…

You are lying about me Neiman. Once again, I don’t hate Christians. And I never once said that they were a “fable of the weak minded”. That only came out of your mouth. You’re simply arguing against your own construct here.

as I have the right to ignore your hate filled diatribes.

You don’t even know my positions. You just make up your own narrative, attribute it to me, and then declare it to be “hate filled”. This is the argumentative technique of an amateur. It’s called a straw man, and you’ve been busy setting them up and knocking them down.

I actually agree with you on many subjects, but still ignore you as much as possible for the reasons stated.

Pfft. You don’t even know me or where I stand on certain issues. You only know what you tell yourself.

Will: You are NOT allowed to pick on Proof; He is royalty and above reproach, Proof is The crown Prince of Puns and he has been engaged in such serious conversations lately he is failing in his royal duties!

Leveller, sounds like SF is simply more integrated than (most of) the rest of the US (and possibly the world). What could be more American than equal opportunities for all, regardless of race, ethnicity, creed or (trans)gender?

Lik, I don’t think it is fair to compare Neiman and Wetback. Wetback does not seem able to debate in a way which encourages one to heed him, whilst (we know) Neiman can, but often wallows in his (religious) persecution complex.

It could explain his persecution complex.

Likwidshoe: Prove, that is, document one lie I have told or prove yourself to be a liar. You will have to document that I knowingly said something I knew beforehand to be objectively false and said it anyway.

Now put up or shut up! You have made this slanderous (a false and malicious statement that damages somebody’s reputation)charge against me, now it is up to you to one by one document those lies or expose the liar in your own soul!

You have completely, utterly failed to document even one lie! You cannot prove I have lied about anything — not one thing. You failed miserably in your post to demonstrate one lie.

A lie means that I would have to know that something is factually false and asserted it was true; or, that I knew something to be factually true and knowingly asserted it to be false.

Sarcasm, imagery and humor are not lies, To take statements made by others and to assert that those statements cannot stand up to reasonable scrutiny and to offer contrary opinions, or as I have often, provided facts that are contrary is not to call the other person a liar. To make reasonable assumptions about another person’s attitudes or beliefs based on their own words, even if the first person disagrees with those assumptions, does not make the second person a liar.

The truth is you have absolutely no idea whatsoever what a lie is or is not! You seem to take any disagreement with your opinions as accusing you of lying, or when people make reasonable assumptions about your emotions or beliefs; based on your own words you accuse them of lying.

In your accusations against me, you have demonstrated that either you have absolutely no concept of what a lie is; or that you deliberately calling others liars like a cheap school yard bully trying to intimidate them into agreeing with you, despite the fact they do not agree.

as odious as WETBACK’s assertions are, he’s no Hitler!

Proof, that’s a pretty naive statement, even for you. Anybody who wants to kill a group of innocent people is more than worthy of being compared to Hitler.

Where do you think this sort of sick Virginia Tech shit starts? Do we have to wait until Wetback follows through on his intentions before we take him seriously?

A redwood tree, 2 inches tall, is still a redwood.

Despite SF’s gay-friendly reputation, transgender people are still pretty marginalized in this town. This will undoubtedly be of some comfort to many of the posters here

No. That will be of much comfort to a couple of the posters here, namely “WETBACK” and Neiman, two illogical and illiterate peas in the same pod. Just for background, “WETBACK” is universally decried around these parts and Neiman is often mocked for his sermonizing hypocritical bullshit. Not to mention that he’s an admitted liar using his own logic.

Please don’t judge this site using those two assholes.

I also like:

Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me!

It applied in the playground and it still applies now.

Hey Leveller, I saw that you just signed up and reposted your comment under your new sign-in. Welcome aboard!

I erased the other duplicate comment.

Wetback is naturally upset because he sees the moral depravity into which our nation has fallen in recent decades, everything from the wholesale slaughter of innocent children in the womb to teaching how-to oral sex classes in elementary schools; and he is feeling terribly impotent to change this trend and the in-your-face flaunting of aberrant lifestyle choices, so he rages on about killing or forcefully removing from society the people that are at the center of the storm of immorality all around us. It is like a father enraged at his daughter being raped and wanting to kill the bastard that violated his dearly loved child.

The difference is that the father of the raped daughter, knows that murder is murder and if he is sane he finds other more healthy emotional and physical outlets for his rage. Wetback seems emotionally unable to do that and so he recommends another, much greater evil to resolve his problems – the murder of those that are forcing their aberrant lifestyle choices on his children and this once proud Christian country. He is wrong, terribly wrong, like a Timothy McViegh he would like to force his will on others, to make them pay for their offenses and putting his children at risk.

I do not defend Wetback in the smallest degree on this issue, I am only explaining his rage; and further I would suggest that a verbal gang rape of Wetback will only reinforce his feelings of impotence and increase his rage. The solution is to strongly disagree with what he is saying without equivocation, then try and help him see the problem with his solution and encourage him to calm down and deal with this in a more mature way. I don’t think name calling helps anyone, it only makes the one calling others names feel a false sense of superiority.

Proof:

if you judge them for their sin being sin and execute them, you have sealed their eternal fate without the possibility of repentance

.

I wholeheartedly agree! Judging sin to be sin is not judging the person, killing them certainly is judging them and playing God.

Proof:
1. The passage in Matthew refers to not judging a person as to their eternal fate; that is, whether or not they are saved, it does not say, as other verses do that we are to judge sin as being sin and judge the spiritual fruits in the lives of those calling themselves Christian.

2. If Roman’s was carried out literally, you do realize that it would not allow for capital punishment, right? It actually means we are not allowed to kill anyone because they are our enemies as children of God or to take vengeance on those that misuse or abuse us, allowing the Lord to balance the scales.

John 7:24

Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment

Romans 13:1-5

Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil. Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.

I think capital punishment falls in there

That is what I am saying.

Neiman: I remember having a debate with someone here on the subject of whether or not America was founded upon Christianity. I believe without question, it certainly was and there are Compacts, Charters, Ordinances, Agreements and State Constitutions to back it up. Not to mention a Supreme Court ruling and various laws that was once upheld.

for he beareth not the sword in vain.
The “sword” is an emblem of the power of life and death, the civil magistrate is invested with, and includes all sorts of punishment he has a right to inflict; and this power is not lodged in him in vain; he may and ought to make use of it at proper times, and upon proper persons:

Of course, I already agreed that capital punishment is permissable under God so you are arguing with me about a point of agreement.

I said about your original passage in Romans:

“It actually means we are not allowed to kill anyone because they are our enemies as children of God or to take vengeance on those that misuse or abuse us, allowing the Lord to

” That statement was about the meaning of the passage for Christians.

Roman’s 12:19
“vengeance is mine, I will repay, saith the Lord;
vengeance belongs to God, and to him only; it is proper and peculiar to him, not to men, unless to magistrates under God, who are revengers and executioners of his wrath on wicked men; otherwise it solely belongs to God the lawgiver, whose law is broken, and against whom sin is committed: and there is reason to believe he will “repay” it, from the holiness of his nature, the strictness of his justice, his power and faithfulness, his conduct towards his own people, even to his Son, as their surety; nor will he neglect, but in his own time He will avenge his elect, which cry unto him day and night; and who therefore should never once think of avenging themselves, but leave it with their God, to whom it belongs.”

Proof: I wasn’t disagreeing with or reproving you, I was only trying to show to others that judging sin (behavior) was not meant in that first passage; and that you were right to point out that vengeance was not approved by God.

In Wetback’s case, showing him why God would not approve of killing TS peole, the What Would Jesus Do line of reasoning is more helpful than name calling and that is exactly what you did, appealed to his Christian beliefs to help him see reason.

HG: You are right about Wetback misunderstanding and misapplying scriptural text, but Jesus even loves the misinformed, the malcontent and those wanting to harm others to achieve their ends – He loves every human being He ever created. He does not love or approve of the way sinners (all of us) think or what they do, and He doesn’t love Wetback any less than He loves you or Zoe; and so I would rather appeal to Wetback on the only sure foundation; that being, Who Christ was/is and how He would deal with this situation. If Wetback or any Christian gets their eyes on the Lord, they cannot hate or want to harm other human beings that God created and loves.

In my opinion, no true Christian could hate Zoe or want to do him any harm and they would feel genuine compassion for this terrible struggle he is facing; but that does not mean that it is okay from a Christian perspective for a person born with male or female genitalia to change their gender just because of who they think/feel they are inside; and if it were not for the ‘kill them and admire Hitler’ comments, it wouldn’t make Wetback a bad person, cruel or unkind just to object to Zoe making that gender change.

God is a God of Love and yet He never sacrifices any of His other characteristics and attributes to express that love. The truth is God hates all sin and He never forgives sin, He forgives the sinner for having sinned; but in Christ He judged sin as being hateful to Him, and so a Christian is able to love other sinners like themselves and hate the sins they all commit, including and most importantly their own.

Wetback: The truth is you have to honestly place your desire to kill TS and homosexuals and an admiration for a person like Hitler in Jesus mouth and feel sure He would react as you have, or you need to get your reactions in line with His. Tell me one time Jesus said He wanted any sinner to die, when he said we should quarantine TS and homosexual people or anytime when He expressed a desire to see anyone in hell. If you cannot, if you are a true child of God, you need to get out of the Old Testament and walk and act as Jesus would, that is what it means to be a Christian. None of us do it perfectly, but that should be our goal. In everything, we need to ask ourselves if Jesus would do this or that or say this or that and if He would not, then for us to do it is a sin and because He loves us He will bring Divine correction to our behavior and attitudes or we should stop claiming Him as our Lord.

HG wrote:

I’m arguing for the privacy of sexuality.

Apart from saying that I’m not Lesbian (despite being married to another woman), where have I talked about sexuality?

Perhaps you should address Niemen et al, who seem to think that sex is what it’s all about. Now it is part of it, but not all, not even the biggest part.

Or, you could just kill anybody that doesn’t live up to your standards!

Got tired of defending wetback proof? Refreshing to see…

Is there an echo in here?

Wetback:

I believe protecting God’s children is the most important thing one can do in this world.

That is idolatry, placing yourself on God’s Throne. Just think about it, if God decided to allow harm to come to your child or another child pof God elsewhere, let us say something easy like a severe case of Chicken Pox, do you really think you can take control and protect them from getting Chicken Pox? If He decided your child should not get Chicken Pox, then no exposure to CP by the most careless and evil person could possible give it to them. Your job is surely to love and protect your children and God’s children everywhere, as he leads, with His power and guidance you can succeed, just by your own will power you will fail.

I agree my comments that call for exterminating these types are extreme, but I also suggested other solutions. But none of you offered any solution to this growing dilemma other than to accept these peculiar people.

We will always have evil among us, we cannot and should not exterminate them – such exterminations would never end, that life and death decision is up to God alone. But, we can pray for the protection of our families and we should pray for TS and homosexual people that God will help them see His Will and Way and He will help them change their behavior by showing them the better way. I can tell you hate won’t help anything!

Which leads me to believe that a great deal of you are willing to sacrifice morality for equality. You’re willing to sacrifice normality for immorality. Just where will America go from here?

How can we be responsible for anyone elses morality? Wherein in the New Testament has Jesus told us to act in hate or anger towards other sinners, we Christians are no better than the worst sinners in the world, we are saved only by God’s marvelous grace, but as to our flesh we are just as guilty and deserving of hell as the most vile sinner we have ever heard about. If God offered us His Mercy and Jesus paid for our sins though we were so undeserving, surely we should rejoice if He offers that mercy and Salvation to every TS and homosexual person on earth, suerly we should pray He will and that He will protect them until the day He has chosen for their salvation.

In that regard, let us say a gender conflicted TS person, no matter how sinful would ten years from now accept Jesus, be saved and then be used of God in a powerful, miraculous way to help other TS people find Christ; but you had them killed or made so hateful of God by quarantining them that they never found Christ and your act of anger, hate or whatever your feelings are actually kept those many souls from finding Christ. How do you know what plans God has for the life of that TS person and yet you would play God and kill or permanently harm their soul and then you think you would escape God’s heavy hand?

Pray for your children, home school them, raise them up in the fear and admonition of the Lord and He promises when they grow old they will not depart from the faith no how depraved the world has become. Do not fail from callling sin – sin, while never failing to share the Love of God in Christ at the same time. I do empathize with your concerns over the fallen nature of this land; but I think you solutions are decidedly unChristian.

Zoe Brain:

I must admit that if he keeps on analogising me to a child’s rapist, I might start to get miffed. Nah. He didn’t mean it. Just an unfortunate turn of phrase.

Yes I did mean it, absolutely! It was quite deliberately chosen, for purposes I made quite clear.

I had carefully explained I only only used this example in a very limited application; that is, both persons have desires that are perverse (<- that only means deviating from a socially accepted normal course of behavior) and both persons can make a conscious decision on whether or not they should act out to fulfill those aberrant (deviating from what is normal or desirable) desires. More than once I was careful to make sure by my use of words that the difference was clear and delineated and the comparison was very limited in nature. It is easier to use extreme examples that everyone will understand than to be too clever and get into endless debates because your comparison was not as easy to grasp.

I also made it perfectly clear when I chose the avatar and signature it was to convey the message that I often ride passionately and impulsively to the defense of people under attack, as the aged knight of lore rode to defend fair Dulcinea. Of course, now that it has been made into something less valiant than the pure motives of this knight of old, I’ll change both my avatar and signature.

Zoe Brain:
what the heck should I have done?

Having Free Will you and you alone had to make that choice; but no matter how hard the choice might have been, it was a choice! No matter what was going on in your chromosomes, you had a choice, it was a Hobson’s choice to sure, but a choice nonethless !

During the Korean War an officer was faced with giving military information to the enemy or see his fellow American prisoners tortured and killed. He decided to save the lives of his comrades. It may seem admirable, an act of compassion by a man suffering great mental and physical torture every day. But, he was and should have been Court Martialled for cowardice and violating his sacred oath. The pain was not an extenuating circumstance.

You had to, after decades of real mental, emotional and physical torment decide to make this gender change, that is your right and your decision alone. No one can make it for you and no one has the right to force you to change your mind. But, having the right to do something does not make that something right, suffering alone does not justify extreme actions to alleviate that suffering.

I am as weak as anyone and if I were in your situation, I cannot claim to have some moral, emotional or mental strength greater than your own. But, whether it was me or in this case it is you, you will have to live with the resuts of that decision until you leave this physical life, and I only hope it will have been worth it for your sake.

Roman’s 12:19
“vengeance is mine, I will repay, saith the Lord;
vengeance belongs to God, and to him only

Neiman: I understand that there are so many good Christians who believe just as you. The love the sinner and hate the sin theologists, to me it is in great error to leave them unpunished.

Deuteronomy 32:35

To me belongeth vengeance, and recompence; their foot shall slide in due time: for the day of their calamity is at hand, and the things that shall come upon them make haste.

Clearly here “vengeance is mine” was recorded by Moses at the time where the laws stated in Leviticus where upheld even so despite God(Jesus) speaking those words.

I agree, America has unfortunately strayed far away from God. But I still have my God giving right to voice my opinions and to my death they will remain with me.

I honestly believe differently than you and the average Christian on the reasons why Jesus(God) did as He did, but to answer your question I believe Jesus would say: Separate your selfs from amongst these people.

Robert108: I find it very disturbing, regrettably it is the new America.

Think Condoleeza Rice’s attitudes towards Black professional victims. Not everyone who’s born with socio-economic disadvantages become criminal. She
made it. Others can too.

Condi didn’t undergo plastic surgery to become a black woman. I see you have adopted the leftie trick of equating “disadvantaged groups”.

Here’s another one afflicted with the “choice” of naturally changing gender.

Wouldn’t a person who actually was a prostate cancer survivor posting about their life story, with medical links etc be germane? Or would they too be considered “publicity hounds”?

You’re comparing sexuality with cancer? Sorry, nothin’ doin’. The two are completely unrelated.

Look, you are free to be whatever you wish; just don’t expect American society to accept your sexuality, or, you as a victim.

Carelessness or lack of observation in one area though does cast doubt on others.

No, it just means I don’t care to read all 323 posts before offering my own opinion.

Zoe,

Nobody here would have known about your wish to be a woman if you hadn’t advertised it complete with photos, and links to your life story.

Don’t tell, and we’re deceivers infiltrating society.

Not exactly true. Not telling your potential partner would be deceitful. Not telling everyone else is a right to privacy… at least in America. There are situations where society would expect you to share your sexuality such as a boy scout troop leader or such the like, but for the most part nobody cares what you and your doctor do with your genitals.

HG wrote

The thing that always amazes me is why many who suffer from a sexuality identity crisis tend to dump it on society. If you’re happy being a medical experiment in sexuality then why does everyone need to know about it? Why does every man-made sexuality need to be general knowledge?

Because of stories like this. Because of the prurient interest Society has in our medical past.

Look at the original story. The new Police Commissioner’s fitness or otherwise for office has been discussed entirely within the context of her medical condition.

I’d like nothing better than to be stealth, just another woman. It’s what all but a handful of TS people dream of, to be treated normally. But that’s not the case, except for those who make supreme efforts to hide their past.

Tell about our situation and we’re publicity-hounds. Don’t tell, and we’re deceivers infiltrating society.

Have a look at my page at the Uni. I don’t advertise my situation, but I don’t hide it. There’s links to my blog, where I often discuss TS issues, and another to a page on IS and TS human rights. But apart from that, I’m just another female academic, and that suits me fine.

Wetback: Understood!

If you believe in the Bible you know that God prophesied that before the end iniquity would abound, that good would be called bad and bad things good and there would be a great falling away from the faith, indicating a growing atheism in the world. Further, there is nothing in Scripture (New Testament) that even hints that His children will change any nation or people from the rapidly advancing downward moral path they have chosen to trod. The only thing any true Christian can do is raise their children in the fear and admonition of the Lord and testify to the Gospel, as led by the Lord, that individuals might find Christ and His Salvation.

I have often been accused of hate, I am constantly called a liar and attacked personally for presenting my Christian views when appropriate to comments being made by others, that is a price every Christian must pay for their faith. The only difference on this issue is that I cannot see Jesus calling for the deaths of sinners, when He came to save sinners; or demanding their removal from society (quarantine) as He went to the worst of sinners and those with even disgusting, infectious diseases that He might heal and save them. So, without engaging in vain doctrinal disputations with you, until I can put some of your words in His mouth and proposed actions as part of His Being, I must side with Him and not you on this issue.

By the way, if I knew what Christian denomination or sect you belonged to, by private email if you choose, I would be able to short cut any learning curve and be aware of most of your beliefs almost instantly.

HG wrote:

Zoe is a man who couldn’t hack being so and decided to change into who he thinks he is.

Partly true.
I tried doing the Boy Act for 47 years. Eventually I couldn’t any more. As a friend of Christine Daniels said “You fight this thing for 40 years. Then you lose.”

I’ve given evidence of differences in the brain’ structure, both coarse and fine, associated with this – whether it’s treated or not. I’ve shown that some drugs can cause TS, the same way Thalidomide causes phocomelia.

It’s true that my chromosomes are 46xy. But it’s also true that my endocrine system became closer to normal female than normal male before treatment. That nearly killed me.

Given the NATURAL change shown here:

The Hormones I had in August were 1/8 of the full dose, which started in January. Just enough to see if I could tolerate them, not enough to cause a change. Enough to reset the wildly swinging levels though, possibly saving my life. I stopped losing a pound a day, the fevers and night sweats went away too.

Anyway, given that change, and the fact that since age 7 I’d always considered myself female, and the fact that I was Intersexed… what the heck should I have done?

What I did do was just to relax, stop pretending, just be me, whatever that was. M, F, some freak in between, whatever. As it turns out, I’m far more feminine than I ever thought possible. Had I known this, I would have transitioned volitionally a long time ago, instead of having it happen to me.

But that means I would not have had a child. So it turned out for the best.

I must emphasise that that set of shots is not normal for transition. The changes over 7 months without a therapeutic does of HRT were more than many get over 3 years with HRT. The usual rate is about the same as that in Puberty.&lt;/textarea&gt;

HG wrote:

That’s fighting talk.

Your masculinity is showing.

What can I say? Pretend to be a guy for 47 years, well, some old habits die hard.

Besides which, I can tell you’ve never been on some women’s forums. Or even read their blogs. Gals say it too.

My chromosomes are male, nothing can alter that, but many other women have the same problem, even though some have born children. I’ll never be able to bear children, though many other women can’t do that either, even if they are chromosomally female. My brain’s area dictating gender is female, but there are other bits that are more typically male. That’s true of a lot of female engineers.

I gave up doing the Boy Act. I’ve had enough of pretending, and I won’t conform to some saccherine Doris Day stereotype just in order to conform with some MCP’s idea of femininity. I guess you could say I’m secure enough in my own womanhood, such as it is, not to worry too much about it.

That was an attempt to prove that I was what, “an effeminate guy”? Well they go around saying “that’s fighting talk” all the time, right?

Can you honestly imagine John Edwards saying that?

WETBACK wrote:

For the record, nobody defended me. And for that reason alone, I know I am on the right path. Let the world hate me, because I am not of this world, and proudly so.

They laughed at Newton! They laughed at Einstein! Yes, but they also laughed at Coco the Clown.

Malignant Narcissism, and a Martyr complex which sees the rest of the world as being wrong and unfair, is a feature of many psychological illnesses. It’s also a feature of radical Islam, and some of the more militant and less rational minority groups. “For the Race, everything, for the rest, nothing.” as the Aztlan nutters say. The sense of Racial Superiority, the Great and the Good oppressed by the subhuman filth who should really be their slaves (or exterminated altogether), that’s a feature too.

Neiman has it right though. It’s possible that some of the same symptoms can be caused by people actually being oppressed.

The Nazis have been demonised, and rightly so in view of Auschwitz. But we cannot understand them unless we realise that they were acting out of the highest motives. As did Osama Bin Laden and the Taliban, and for that matter, Pol Pot. Bin Laden was out to cleanse the world of the Ungodly, to get rid of the sinners and fornicators, the pimps, panderers, and purveyors of pornography. Ok, so he believes that an exposed female elbow is pornographic, but that’s because Allah tells him so. The rest of the world may think him a bloodthirsty Loony, but he knows he’s right, becuase he’s so alone. Well, apart from the millions who think he’s right.

Recognise anyone there?

Just as the Utopian idealistic Left can become Pol Pots out of the best of motives, so we on the Right can become corrupted, also out of the best of motives.

You were subject to what has been rightly called a posting “gang bang”, or words to that effect. Now there are two ways you can react to that. The first is all too human, to react with righteous anger which all too easily becomes hatred. The second is to try to prove to others that you have a point, by acting in accordance with your highest ideals. I think it’s called “turning the other cheek”. For one thing, it riles your opponents far more than mere name calling, so you get the guilty pleasure out of discomfiting them while appearing almost saintly. Dr Martin Luther King was a past master of it.

Many have asked how I could tolerate the verbal slings and arrows that have come my way. Most of it is that it’s small stuff, I have genuine problems that make it negligible. “Sticks and stones” has real meaning for me, X-rays of my skull still show the damage I took from being beaten unconscious with a crowbar at age 8. That happens to TS girls, they don’t “Vibe right” as boys even then. As I said, I have a typical TS life history.

Part of it though is insufferable smugness that I’m better than the ones insulting me. I’m a very flawed individual, as are we all. It helps to be scrupulously honest about your own motives – to engage in introspection, and not deceive yourself that you’re better than you are.

I ask you to have a look inside yourself. Then if you’re still so very sure that you’re right, that extermination is a moral act as Himmler said it was, Publish and be Damned. I know you won’t actually do anything about it though: talk is cheap, and I bet you’ve never killed anyone in your life.

LF: This thread is about a police commissioner in SF. I know some people crave attention, but that’s their problem.

LF: What I said was that undergoing the operation to adjust to your feelings is evidence of weakness of character and possible bias for others who share that weakness of character, and so while it is just fine in private life, it seems to make that person unsuitable for the job of police commissioner.

robert108 – you do bring up a good point. A TS Police commissioner in SF would be just as likely to be sympathetic to TS people there as, say, a Chinese Police commissioner in 1920 would be sympathetic to Chinese Americans.

OTOH they would be less likely to have patience with TS criminals, they wouldn’t buy the “Poor little me” defence.

Think Condoleeza Rice’s attitudes towards Black professional victims. Not everyone who’s born with socio-economic disadvantages become criminal. She made it. Others can too.

ZB: Nice tale of victimization, but it only happens if you choose to have the surgery, which is my point. Other minorities don’t have a choice like you did.
How about all those gay men who were welcomed into the Catholic priesthood? Who ended up the victim there?

Ah, but I’m TS remember, just like the new Police commissioner. Thus weak of character, and valuing feelings over rationality, according to you.

You lie. What I actually said was that acting on those feelings, to the extent of performing extensive plastic surgery to soothe them, exhibits weakness of character in someone who wants to be police commissioner. I have pointed out at least twice that being TS or having surgery as an individual is entirely a private matter, as far as I’m concerned. In fact, I would rather not know about it. When it comes to being the chief of law enforcement, however, there is a different standard. It’s not the being, it’s the doing. Thought I made that clear at least twice.

What I was concerned about was some people not being willing to put themselves in another’s place because if they do so they will have have to question beliefs that bring them great comfort. When this happens they can deny the reality of other’s plight and call them liars rather than live with doubt.

I posted because I thought I saw this happening. It was only a mild example of it, but I think it was there. If you fully admitted the reality of the situation that many of those that you call perverted are in, if you truly saw things through their eyes then you would have to question what you see as God’s commands. And I think I know how uncomfortable that would be for you. I wouldn’t blame anyone for flinching at the prospect.

But still you have to do it. It is wrong to look for see evil in others so that you can hang on to certainties. I think you have to live with uncertainty. It is wrong

I do not see it as admirable for someone with chronic pain to refuse pain-killing medicines because they think that it shows strength of character. I don’t see it as weakness for someone who is profoundly uncomfortable with their body to change their body to reduce the discomfort. I don’t see it as wrong for homosexuals to seek sexual relationships that they feel comfortable with rather than ones that feel wrong or none at all. Yes, as a heterosexual the idea of homosexual relations with another man is distasteful to me. So are some heterosexual variations. They are also none of my business so long as they do not impinge on any intimate aspect of my life.

I do not accept your natural law arguments. Just because things fit together most naturally one way does not mean that fitting them together in a different way is wrong. I believe sexual morality should be based on honest and loyalty, not on purity.

For Teresa Sparks to have continued with the male act would not have shown strength of character. Rather, it would have been self delusion that would have really rendered her unfit for the job, mostly from the stress involved.

Male and female are fuzzy categories. Most people clearly fall into one or the other. Some don’t. We have to make allowance for that and not grudgingly.

Male and female are fuzzy categories.

This has got to be the most ignorant, backwards statement ever read on SAB.

We have to make allowance for that and not grudgingly.

Says who, less than .01% of the population?

This is ridiculous. TS is not a medical condition, but a mental one. Society has no obligation to make allowances for anatomical males like Zoe, who wish to be female or vice versa.

Robert108, you don’t get it.

LF: You don’t get it; it’s not the same as being black and female. It’s still a matter of choice to take any specific action(or any action at all) on this condition. Moreover, ZB’s condition isn’t what this thread is about. I just don’t buy into that “pay attention to me because I’m different” consciousness.
I don’t begrudge any individual doing what they decide to do; just don’t try to push it in my face without asking first, and if my answer is “No”, then backing off. It’s just common courtesy.

For someone who chooses not to pay attention, you sure have been posting a lot about it. Methinks the Lady protesteth too much. Or Gentleman, as the case may be.

If my problems, and the problems of the incoming police commissioner are irrelevant to you, how come you’ve become involved so much with the debate?

And, while we’re on it, I’m Australian. The implication that I could want you to pay for something for me beggars belief.

As fpr victimology, the second time you’ve mentioned that, in order to be as victim, you must acquiesce to that. I’ve never done that, and hopefully never will. To that end, I try to lay facts before such as yourself. I admit that it helps that I’ve had so much support from family, friends, and colleagues, so I have the luxury of being able to help others, and not be too wrapped up in my own problems.

Even if those others are on the other side of the Pacific.

However, none of what I’ve said in this post contributes to informing other people, so I’ll leave it at that.

The result of this kind of thing:

I was not fired because of real or perceived sexual orientation but I was fired specifically based on my gender expression. The Human Resource department was very careful in being explicit as to why I was being fired. My story of anti-transgender discrimination isn’t unique, there are hundreds just like it. So I ask you, where do we go to demand these rights? Where exactly was I supposed to go to demand justice for losing a job where I had spent years working holidays and weekends, sacrificing time that could have been spent with my family?

If she was a Gay Guy, this would have been illegal in Massachusetts, the strong Gay Lobby there has seen to that.

That’s why it’s so ironic that the initial story said

I do not care about the homosexual implications of the whole thing.

Anti-Gay Activists universally say we’re Gay, so should not be protected against discrimination. Gay Activists universally say we’re not Gay, so should not be protected like they should.

It’s ironic to see agreement between two such disparate parties.

No. That will be of much comfort to a couple of the posters here, namely “WETBACK” and Neiman, two illogical and illiterate peas in the same pod. Just for background, “WETBACK” is universally decried around these parts and Neiman is often mocked for his sermonizing hypocritical bullshit. Not to mention that he’s an admitted liar using his own logic.

Please don’t judge this site using those two assholes.

likwidshoe on August 12, 2007 at 01:37 am

Sorry if I leapt to conclusions…I shouldn’t judge the site by the opinions of two bigots…and guess I shouldn’t post whist(slightly)drunk…:)

By the way, I admire the libertarian prospective contained herein…

OK, I’m gonna go sober up now…

All the best,
Leveller

Hi Joanna! Yes, there is Strength in Unity, but really we have such different concerns from the GLB majority that it takes a special place to make things work.

Tell me, how are the Intersexed treated in SF? Here in Australia, there is a natural cleavage between the TS and IS on one side, the TG and GLB on the other.

That’s based purely on pragmatic grounds, the former have medical issues nothing to do with sexual orientation, the latter have sexual issues nothing to do with medical ones. The only thing we have in common is that it’s the same kind of people who want to kill us.

In Australia, we have subsidised health care. So the Government has a say in what drugs can be prescribed for what conditions. IS and TS people face legal problems that GLBs don’t. Thus when I was deemed more M than F, I was prescribed Androcur (Cyproterone Acetate – not FDA approved) for ‘Reduction of sex drive in a deviant male’. But just a few weeks later, the same stuff was prescribed for “severe androgenisation of a non-pregnant woman”. The medics have to be very careful they don’t leave themselves open to charges of fraud. A month’s Androcur cost me $38 at the subsidised price but would be $400 on the open market. It cost me even less when being used as a chemical castrator for a “deviant male”, the subsidies depend on the diagnosis.

The more normal TS cases face similar problems, but there the dividing line is surgery. Before, one sex on the database, after, the other. It’s only when a TS woman gets prostate problems, or a TS man gets cowper’s gland ones, that there are issues.

Try explaining that to GLB activists, and see the blank stares you get. They don’t know, and they don’t want to know. Explain to them that Transgendered people are denied passports here, and again, incomprehension. Their concerns and ours are worlds apart.

In the US I imagine it’s different. I’ve seen almost no involvement of IS people in the GLBITQ activism.

Pretty much everyone has been exposed to TS people on TV. Yet 1 in 100,000 births are serial hermaphrodites, that means about 50 are born in the USA every year. There are thousands of them – us – usually with 5ARD or 17BHD deficiency. A few dozen like me. All of them have bodies changing apparent sex over their lifetime. Yet few have heard of us. Most don’t believe we exist, or that we can exist. We cause far t