Say Anything Blog

To put things gently; while in college, I saw a documentary about the hard core porn industry, and let’s just say that some of the things I learned about are difficult to reconcile with the appreciation for female beauty that Rob describes--but were rather examples of fairly brutal violence to the women involved. 

At the very least, a significant portion of hard core pornography does exactly what Mrs. Seelhoff suggests.  There may be other “skin pictures” which are truly beautiful, but a lot of it is truly abusive to women.

(like the infamous pictures of Mrs. Federline--is that really beautiful, or do people simply like to see her embarass herself?  My take is the latter.)

Robert, it would be helpful if you didn’t put words in my mouth.  I didn’t say that porn was about “beauty” for most porn viewers, I pointed out that it was about activating certain primal impluses.

You show a man a naked woman and he becomes aroused.  There’s nothing all that sinister about that, as much as you might try to attribute such to it.  You may find it distasteful or immoral, but you shouldn’t be reading morbid impulses into activities that don’t warrant it.

And I should point out that you’re steering away from the main thrust of my post, which wasn’t about the porn industry’s treatment of women but rather about why people are interested in porn in the first place.

But if you want to talk about the porn industry, I’d point out that one of the reasons why it is so exploitive is because for most of its history it’s operated on the fringes of society.  There has always been a demand for porn (which goes back to the primal urges I was talking about), but serving that demand has been driven underground by moralizing busybodies so that it has been operated by shady, less-than-savory characters.

You remove the social stigma that has been attached to porn by centuries of moral busybodies and the process by which it is created becomes less exploitive.

Meaning that all this opposition to porn from people like you is the real reason why porn has been so exploitive in the past, and the relaxing of that opposition is why it is less exploitive today.

That may make you angry, but that doesn’t make it any less true.

When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

I think that it’s important to remember that some people consider there to be a difference between pornography which displays normal sex acts vs. that which displays deviant behavior.

The quote by Seelhoff indicates that she does not make this distinction.

The problem is that “deviant behavior” is a relative term.

Robert considers Playboy pictorials to be “deviant behavior.” I don’t.  Which one of us is right?

Some might call gay porn “deviant behavior” but not straight porn. Again, who is right?

I think we, though the government, have a basic responsibility to prevent truly exploitive porn like depictions of rape, snuff films and kiddie porn.  But porn that depicts intercourse between consenting adults?  I think it’s a waste of our time to go after that.  Some we may find distasteful or even morally objectionable, but that’s a personal decision everyone should make for themselves and not others.

When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

Rob, I wasn’t trying to do any such thing.  I am simply pointing out that the primal sexual instinct is not aroused, generally speaking, by brutality, gang rape, and sodomy.  Unfortunately, that’s all too common in hard core porn today (see Wikipedia, look up some names you know and follow Wiki’s links), and Mrs. Seelhoff is 100% correct to denounce this.

She may over-generalize to condemn Venus de Millo and such, but brutality against women is a key part of getting them to “act” in such films, as well as a key theme of such films. 

And no, it’s not because porn is repressed.  In our livetimes, Rob, it’s moved from skid row to Main Street, and in the same period of time, it’s gone from Playboy to Hustler, from “Deep Throat” to movies featuring the worst brutality, gang rape, sodomy, and so on. 

In other words, as society accepts porn, it gets more of it, and more deviant forms of it.

Rob, I wasn’t trying to do any such thing.  I am simply pointing out that the primal sexual instinct is not aroused, generally speaking, by brutality, gang rape, and sodomy.  Unfortunately, that’s all too common in hard core porn today (see Wikipedia, look up some names you know and follow Wiki’s links), and Mrs. Seelhoff is 100% correct to denounce this.

Robert, you are, clearly, trying to confuse my argument so that you can more easily.

My point (which you are now ignoring) is that the issue of women being exploited by porn producers is a separate one from why men want porn in the first place.  The impulse to see women naked really is driven by a natural, ingrained desire to copulate.  Why you would think there’s something sinister about that is beyond me.

But whatever.

Your contention that “the primal sexual instinct is not aroused, generally speaking, by brutality, gang rape, and sodomy” is true, but by making that point you imply that most porn content consists of those things.  It doesn’t.

The vast majority of porn consists of consenting adults in various stages of undress and copulation.  That’s it.

If you’re suggesting this isn’t true you’re being dishonest and trying to use emotion, rather than fact, to win an debate.

I’ll agree with you if you want to say that men who get off seeing women brutalized or raped (be it simulated or not) are exercising fantasies having more to do with domination than simple arousal, I’ll agree with you.  But what you’re talking about represents a miniscule percentage of all porn.

This statement:

She may over-generalize to condemn Venus de Millo and such, but brutality against women is a key part of getting them to “act” in such films, as well as a key theme of such films.

Is pure B.S.  Unless you’re willing to say that a huge percentage of America’s male population (remember how pervasive the porn industry is) enjoys seeing women brutalized.

And no, it’s not because porn is repressed.  In our livetimes, Rob, it’s moved from skid row to Main Street, and in the same period of time, it’s gone from Playboy to Hustler, from “Deep Throat” to movies featuring the worst brutality, gang rape, sodomy, and so on.

You assume that this sort of thing hasn’t existed for, well, ever.  If I searched hard enough I’m sure I could find you some porn images from the turn of the century that are every bit as graphic as that which you’d find in Hustler.  Is there more Hustler-style porn available today?  Absolutely, but how much do you want to bet that the girls appearing in Hustler today are treated better then those girls appearing in the turn-of-the-century porn?

As porn as gone more mainstream it has become less exploitive.  You can deny that until you’re blue in the face, but it isn’t going to make it any less true.

In other words, as society accepts porn, it gets more of it, and more deviant forms of it.

Again, there have been people turned on by rape and brutality for years.  Look at certain Roman emperors for instance.

And again, we run into a problem with defining what is and is not deviant.  Is someone who enjoys watching naked women pop balloons “deviant”?  It’s a little weird, sure, but “deviant” isn’t the right word for it.

But that aside, I don’t think porn moving into the mainstream is responsible for creating more people who enjoy brutality and rape.  I don’t think normal porn can be blamed for that but rather other factors like abuse, mental disorders or molestation.

Let me sum it up this way: There are men who use porn as Seelhoff suggests (as a way to live out fantasies about dominating and brutalizing women).  But to suggest that all men who view porn do so with that motivation is stupid.

Most men view porn because they’re aroused by naked and copulating women, and that’s a perfectly natural manifestation of an inherent reproductive instinct.

When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

In women’s alternative universes they perfect Cinderella like princesses that are all hated, but in particular the beautiful, successful, women who believe themselves untouchable, unreachable, impossible to personally dominate, ergo something most men find intolerable. In reality, they are soccer moms that wear sweats all day and shuttle the kids in minivan while bitching that their husbands spend too much time on porn or professional bookworms who never had a date in their lives and are bitter than men would rather beat off to Jenna Jameson than to listen to them drone on about historical women’s sufferage and french poetry.

This is based on my research in taking a “human sexuality” class in the Women’s studies department for a easy science credit. In that class I learned that A.) everything is men’s fault, B.)Women never do anything wrong, C.) everything is a “cause” of rape andd finally D.) womens’ studies majors are bitches when you hand them their ass in a debate.

Of course, I could be biased.

Ms Seelhoff is projecting her personal hatred and anger on men. Plain and simple. She is pissed off that no one takes her seriously or finds her attractive. Sad and pathetic, why does she do nothing productive with her life?

Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

brutality, gang rape, and sodomy

Oh fucking please.  I’ll be honest here.  I DL DVDs using Bit Torrent.  I easily have some 250 XXX DVDs on my various PC hard drives.  More, in fact, than I could possibly watch in my lifetime, most likely, but then I probably own some 150 PC games (though if I stopped right now and did nothing but play games, I could probably get through them all before I die).

So, I consider myself an authority on this topic.  There is no gang rape in porn.  None.  Period.  As far as “sodomy” goes, are you talking about anal sex ?  Or the more generic term that includes oral sex ?  Either way, your grouping sexual behaviors that normal, healthy American couples engage in regularly as deviant CLEARLY exposes you as the prude that you are.  Really, just based on that, I shouldn’t even continue, nor should anyone consider your opinion as relevant or informed.

Brutality ?  Such as ?  Nobody is being “forced” to do this, and they get paid quite nicely, actually.  Granted, if you want to make a living at it you have make a LOT of movies, and that, I’m sure is challenging in a number of ways. 

Bottom line is, if you don’t want to be in porn - DON’T.  If you don’t like porn - DON’T WATCH.  It’s just that simple.  And if peoples opinions generally aligned with the feminazis or Robert’s then there wouldn’t be money in it.  But there is.

I would also add that everyone on earth is either dominant or submissive to some degree.  That people are aroused by images that depict modest domination or submission is not deviant at all. 

Lets also keep in mind that the crime of “rape” is centered on power and is not inherenly sexual to the rapist.  So making the leap from pornography, which I agree with Rob is completely hardwired to the carnal instincts of men, and thus “sexual” in nature, to rape is a non-starter.  The two things are not connected.

By the way, there is a word, despised by modest society, that can honestly be used for MS. Cheryl Lindsey Seelhoff and it starts with C.  She’s just bitter because of all the millions of men stroking it while watching porn, not ONE of them would ever consider doing it with poor Cheryl.

Most evolutionary biologists agree that roughly 99% of the evolution of our species has occurred up until the point where we were still in small hunter/gatherer groups, i.e. “the caveman days” you spoke about. So no, we haven’t changed much since then. The few thousand years that have passed since those days are a very small blip on our evolutionary timeline. Of course we are all still slaves to our instincts, but it’s our ability to reason that gives us some controll over them. Some people have more will power than others.

Love is strange.

OK, Rob & anon perv, I give in.  Our fathers said “Candy’s dandy, but liquor’s quicker” because they knew you were right; women always choose to divest themselves of their clothes for strangers because they CHOOSE to do so. 

Sorry, but no.  A good look at anthropology reveals not only that men are attracted to the female form, but also that it’s dangerous for the woman to show it to strangers.  The historic penalty for out of wedlock sex is, after all, poverty, STDs, and death from the difficulties of childbirth.  Feminine reluctance to “bare it all” stems from the inherent sexuality of such an act, along with the inherent danger to herself of such an act.

In the same way, the historic way of overcoming a woman’s reluctance to be immodest or have sex with someone besides their husband is to get them intoxicated, assault them, or provide them with a LOT of money.  To get them to use an unnatural orifice for the deed, increase the amounts of drugs, assault, or money applied.

Yes, perv, I have no need to have e coli anywhere but in my intestines.  In the same way, I have no desire to watch other couples have sex, or to watch one woman with three men, or a woman with whatever.  If that maketh me a prude, so be it.

Sorry, but acceptance of this kind of filth in polite society dates back really only to Kinsey in our culture.  Yes, there was porn earlier, but sorry, articles in Wiki make it pretty clear that there were various barriers that have been successively crossed in the past 50 years.  And yes, it’s in and of itself cruel to women.  Again, Rob, look up the implications of anthropology.

Lemme give this a try…

The alternative political universes feminists create for themselves via critiques of pornography are fueled, not by political grievance primarily, but by feelings of hatred and vengeance towards all men, but in particular, handsome, successful, men who are unflappable, unreachable, impossible to personally dominate, something most feminists, find intolerable. It’s not about equality. It’s not in any way about appreciation for men. It’s not really about sex, either.

Robert, I really don’t have the time to take this debate any further, but I think it would be helpful if you moved beyond your prudishness and hysterically emotional arguments.  You cannot talk of porn without throwing out words like “assault” and “rape” and “brutality,” and that’s telling.  You want to win this debate with overwrought emotion and by changing the definition of what porn is (you’d have us believe that all porn portrays acts of rape and thuggery).

I think you need to wake up and take note of the fact that our society has evolved, and for the better.  We’re not living in the 1940’s any more.  This is no longer a nation of Puritans.

Porn has been exploitive and abusive in the past because it was shoved to the fringes by moralists who would have us believe that sex is dirty or wrong.  You don’t want to recognize that, and that’s pretty sad.

When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

DingDingDingDing!! We have a winner! Thanks for playing, jdubious. You have earned the ire and hatred of Feminazis everywhere. Welcome to the club.

Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

Rob, I never said that.  I said that rape is often central to getting women willing to perform such acts, and that’s true. 

http://books.guardian.co.uk/departments/politicsphilosophyandsociety/story/0,6000,458058,00.html

http://www.shelleylubben.com/testimony.html

Read up a little.  I know many of you don’t want to see the truth, but this is it.  Porn is cruel to the actors, and to you if you watch it.

Robert, I get your point, but what I’m saying is that as porn has become more socially acceptable the manipulation of its actors has become less.

What you’re saying is true, to a point, but what is also true is that as porn has emerged from the shadows it has become less shady.

When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

Getting closer, Rob.  Even so, look at the book review again; it clearly notes that it’s a “rough” business and getting rougher.  In other words, it’s not getting better, but worse, and exhibit A is using the wrong orifice in the pelvis.

In other words, although the move from Skid Row to the highway exit may make it look less seedy, what’s inside is even worse, and takes an even worse toll on those who “perform” in it--not to mention those who watch it.

Robert, I think you’re making assumptions based on facts not in evidence.

I suggest that men are interested in porn because of natural instinct, and you suggest that it is because men want to dominate and brutalize women.

You’re a smart guy, but you’re clearly not worth talking to on this subject.

When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

Getting closer, Rob.  Even so, look at the book review again; it clearly notes that it’s a “rough” business and getting rougher.  In other words, it’s not getting better, but worse, and exhibit A is using the wrong orifice in the pelvis.

In other words, although the move from Skid Row to the highway exit may make it look less seedy, what’s inside is even worse, and takes an even worse toll on those who “perform” in it--not to mention those who watch it.

What?  The bolded statement is retarded.  Oral sex is almost equally wrong then.  The industry sells men what they are looking for and if dudes want to see some hardcore ass penetration, the industry is going to show it.

You want some reality?  Here is reality.  Most of the porn actresses and actors have major life difficulties in their childhood like their uncle screwing them at 10 or like serious drug addiction.  Porn is an extremely lucrative profession and unlike working as a hooker, you know your partner is going to be HIV negative because the industry mandates it.

I guess we should do away with porn and let guys stop fantasizing and go and get a hooker to act out their fantasies in real life.  Porn does not equal prostitution.  Not even close.  Prostitution is brutal.  Prostitutes are regularly raped.  They get beat by their pimps.  The porn industry offers these same runaway teens and model/actress wannabe’s an alternative to working the streets that is better paying and much safer.  And most hookers will take it in the ass if the money is right.  Most manwhores take it in the ass anyway.

Why don’t you go ask the head of the Evangelical Association of America if his manwhore took it in the ass and if he had to brutally abuse, gang rape, or sodomize him.  Get a clue dude.  I don’t like this element of our society, but comparing porn and prostitution is like comparing being an illegal immigrant custodian to being an immigration lawyer.  I mean both work with people who speak Spanish and are here illegally.  You need to get your facts straight.  Porn is a hell of an alternative to working as a hooker and it pays well enough that you don’t have to screw your meth dealerto get a fix.

Thanks, Justin, for admitting what this twisted industry is all about.  By stating that it’s somehow “good” that an abused or drug-addicted girl can “work” in this area, you’ve made my point.

That is, it is no mercy to take an abused woman and pay her to repeat the experience in new and degrading ways, knowing that she’s likely to drown her sorrows in drugs before being thrown out of the studio when she gets her first wrinkle--with no way of supporting herself, and with far worse physical and psychological damage, and with a far worse drug habit.

And that is, friends, what this sick industry is all about.

Robert, you’re not going to win this argument by defining porn in a way that’s convenient for your argument.  There’s nothing particularly degrading about a Playboy pictorial.

You can use emotional rhetoric all you want, but you’re not going to convince many people with it.

When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

RP, how long ago were you “diagnosed” as being “addicted” to pornographic images? And how much money has been stolen from you by psychiatrists treating your “addiction”?

Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

That is, it is no mercy to take an abused woman and pay her to repeat the experience in new and degrading ways, knowing that she’s likely to drown her sorrows in drugs before being thrown out of the studio when she gets her first wrinkle

First, she is not repeating the experience of being raped or molested simply by having sex.  The act of sex in and of itself is in no way equivalent to the act of being raped or molested.  You implied that the act of having sex = the act of being raped.  Not even close to true.

Second, there is no shame in working as a prostitute, porn star, or doing internet porn work.  It is a fairly repulsive thing to think of me or you or my daughter or your daughter doing it, but for others, it ain’t half bad work.  Who are we to tell another American that their line of work is degrading?  I would not personally work doing porn and would be disgusted if my children did, but then again, the alternative for some of these people is not much better.

I do not frequent strip clubs or pay for any sort of pornography because I do not agree with the business practices of the industry.  Some folks refuse to shop at Walmart for their business practices.  I don’t like the sex industry, but that does not mean that I look down upon or feel some kind of “White Man’s Burden” to help their poor victimized workers.  Walmart workers are not victims and porn workers are not victims.  The workers are not victims any more than the idiots that did not get out of New Orleans before Katrina were victims.  They are not being victimized by the industry because both parties are willing participants.  This industry pays a relatively high prevailing wage to attract workers and workers choose to work in this field for all kinds of reasons, whether to get drugs or to put themselves through college. 

I don’t gamble for many of the same reasons.  I don’t like their industry because it takes money from old grandmothers who continually plug their life savings into slot machines.  Are grandmothers and the blue hairs at the Casinos any more victims than the porn workers?  Every single one of these people made a conscious choice to work or stick their quarters into the slots.  Being addicted to drugs and doing porn to pay for it does not make you a victim of the porn industry.  Getting molested by your uncle and doing porn does not make the porn industry your molester.  Doing porn is a choice that your other problems lead you to.  You are a victim of drug abuse and chose porn to pay for it.  I guess these people should try crime instead.

Rob:

There’s nothing particularly degrading about a Playboy pictorial.

Nor for that matter, particularly erotic.  Which why I personally wouldn’t even call it “soft porn”.

I actually find babes in skimpy bathing suits (e.g., Sports Illustrated) to be more titillating.

Different strokes, different folks.

When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

2Hotel9; nice attempt at libel, but no, it’s still libel on your part.  It’s very interesting to me that a great portion of the response to Mrs. Seelhoff and myself is unfounded allegations, and I dare suggest that it has something to do with the foundation of evidence for your position.

Justin, I’m glad to see that you’re at least repulsed by what goes on.  Most of us are, despite porn industry propaganda to the contrary.  Again, telling an abused girl that it’s somehow “good” for her to relive the experience for pay is absurd.  It’s like telling your little brother who just got beat up that he really ought to try his hand at boxing or one of those “ultimate fighting” contests.

And yes, Playboy is degrading.  If you doubt this, remember your father’s adage ("Candy’s dandy...") and take a look at the real bios of the Playmates--again, you can do this on Wiki without polluting your eyes.  It includes a fair number of minors (ahem), a fair number of repeat Playmates, and a lot of people from overseas.  It includes a high proportion of drug addicts, people from broken homes, and more.

Again, that isn’t the population that you would expect if “nice girls” posed nude for strangers, but rather the population you’d expect if it took some extraordinary circumstances to get a girl to do this. 

This is, again, exactly what we’d expect from anthropology.  Yes, men respond to the female form, but it’s a foolish woman who invites sexual abuse by displaying her form indiscriminately.

"By the way, there is a word, despised by modest society, that can honestly be used for MS. Cheryl Lindsey Seelhoff and it starts with C.  She’s just bitter because of all the millions of men stroking it while watching porn, not ONE of them would ever consider doing it with poor Cheryl. “

Thank you for confirming that in defense of porn, a boy will sink to any level of misogyny.

(thanks Robert Perry for being one of the few who isn’t making me want to vomit.)

"Porno isn’t about domination fantasies and woman hating, it’s about certain instincts and primal urges that have remained with us from the days when we were just a step or two above apes, and there isn’t anything all that sinister about it. “

Oh no?  Why don’t you go and google “facial” and “abuse” and see what comes up. And, assuming no one becomes aroused, tell me again how “there isn’t anything all that sinister about it.”

And in case anyone’s wondering: the site you’re most likely to find will give you many many free vids of young women the site claims were tricked into enduring a heap of abuse after they agreed to do porn for these women-hating pigs.  You’ll find the site commenting on the vids with things like “this one makes my soul hurt”.  Enjoy.

There’s nothing particularly degrading about a Playboy pictorial.

Bukkake is a group sex practice wherein a series of people take turns ejaculating onto someone. A common form of bukkake seen in such publications will involve a woman or man sitting, lying down, or kneeling while men (or functional transsexuals) approach to masturbate until they ejaculate on his or her body. The semen is left on the face as another man repeats the routine.

I think the porn industry is a lot like the drug dealing industry. It’s really great for the 1% at the very top (your Jenna Jamisons and Playboy models and whatnot); for everyone else it’s torture.

Torture?  That’s something people are forced to do.  I don’t think many of today’s porn stars are being forced to have sex on camera against their will.

When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

Yes, men respond to the female form, but it’s a foolish woman who invites sexual abuse by displaying her form indiscriminately.

Why does this sound almost like what some of those Islamic Imams say about women who got raped?

Shouldn’t the blame for abuse be put with the person doing the abusing and not the women who is simply posing nude or whatever?

When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

Shouldn’t the blame for abuse be put with the person doing the abusing and not the women who is simply posing nude or whatever?

You betcha. Again, what I’m getting at is that something must be overcome before a girl poses nude or has sex with a stranger in front of a camera, and certainly those who persuade her to do so are to blame for what happens to her.  As has been demonstrated by numerous links, that price is drug abuse, sexual abuse, physical abuse, and more.

If you buy a skin magazine, video, or such, that is what you’re buying.  Like it or not, you’re wreaking violence on somebody’s daughter, boys.

Again, what I’m getting at is that something must be overcome before a girl poses nude or has sex with a stranger in front of a camera, and certainly those who persuade her to do so are to blame for what happens to her.

So...girls can’t just enjoy sex and exhibitionism?  It has to be the result of manipulation or abuse?

I think you’re off your rocker, Robert.

As has been demonstrated by numerous links, that price is drug abuse, sexual abuse, physical abuse, and more.

You haven’t demonstrated a damn thing.  You’ve said “go read Wikipedia” a bunch of times, but outside of your prudishness I see little factual support for your position.

When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

I don’t think many of today’s porn stars are being forced to have sex on camera against their will.

As has been demonstrated by numerous links, that price is drug abuse, sexual abuse, physical abuse, and more.

Do you mean to say that porn is the cause of drug abuse, sexual abuse, physical abuse, and more?  Or do you mean to say that these types of abuses are responsible for women choosing to do porn?

The most common mistaken form of logic is when one assumes that two events seeming to go hand in hand = causation.  I do not buy that abuse is the only or even the primary cause of women getting into the porn industry.  IT IS NOT THE CAUSE.  It happens that sexual or drug abuse is a common factor in the backgrounds of porn actors.  Sexual abuse or drug abuse is also a common factor in suicides.  It is a common factor in individuals that get involved in crime.  But being a common thread in a bunch of cases does not equal being the cause of any of these things.

Humans and our society have increasingly opened the doors to allow people to engage openly in deviant sexual behaviors and have allowed these practices to be spoken about.  If you don’t like Sodomy, move to Texas because up until a couple of years ago, they had laws against oral and anal sex.  Basically they outlawed being gay.

Let’s be clear--acting in pornography for an individual who is older than 18 is a consentual act and it is not our place to judge one’s motives for doing so.  It is not our place to cast judgment on them or their past or their current habits.  It is their choice, and in my opinion it is almost universally a bad choice as it has severe consequences.  But my only recourse to discourage these actions and to stop the industry is to not consume their products.  Just like with Pepsi.  If I think pepsi or transfats or candy and junkfood are ruining the world and making us fat, my recourse is to simply CHOOSE not to eat these products.  Same with drugs and alcohol.  They are a choice.

Contrast that to getting f*ed by your uncle.  Not a choice.  That is illegal.  Getting forced into child porn.  Illegal.  Sexual slavery.  Illegal.  Prostitution.  Illegal (most places).  But I would go so far as to argue that prostitution should be legal as it also is a consentual contractual relationship between adults.  Child sex not included.  Consenting adults should be free to engage in whatever behavior they want and video tape it if so desired.  Start even thinking about forcing someone into slavery or doing it with kids and you should be sent to prison to find out the definition of sodomy.

Does your fiancée like having dozens of strange men ejaculate on her face in succession?

Don’t know, never asked her.  I’m pretty sure no, but then she’s never been forced to do any such thing.  Nor has any girl who has done it in a porn movie.

When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

She might, though; because, according to you, every woman who has been in a bukkake film has done so because she really enjoyed having men ejaculate on her face.

Just like every prostitute enjoys risking her life and having sex with strange men.

You know, you probably couldn’t say that people who dig ditches or work in the fast food industry want to be handling a shovel or flipping burgers...but does that mean taking the job was any less their choice?

When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

Justin, the things I mentioned seem to cause people to go into porn ("so humiliated this is all I can do"), and porn leads people to do these things ("gotta dull the pain somehow.").

So although porn or prostitution may seem like a career “choice,” the information around it--again, heavy drug use, violence, etc..--indicates that something else is going on, and we cannot accurately call it a “choice” for most.

Robert, I find it interesting that you take the life circumstances of a few in the porn industry and use those to extrapolate motivations to all porn stars.

As I’ve pointed out again and again, I think your vastly overstating your case.

When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

Unfortunately, the data I’ve provided are more than a few data points.  Put bluntly, the industry does not have its own initiative against drug use because it’s not pervasive.  Rather, it has such because it’s one of the biggest ways their “employees” deal with the pain of being in that industry.

Look up a few dozen names for yourself, Rob.  Don’t trust industry PR, but look at what these women go through.

Let’s see some of the authors other views real quick to put things in perspective. Here is Ms. Seelhoff in her own words at her blog:

Yolanda: I have got to tell you this: “Male terrorism” is not my experience. White Male Capitalist terrorism is.

I meant to say but didn’t that in my view capitalism is a specific form of male terrorism, as racism is as well, as lesbophobia is, as all the isms are.

As to leading in the struggle for liberation, what I think is, as someone I very much respect wrote in other words, white western women have had the privilege of *serving* — not leading — the longest revolution. An important project of feminism, I think, has been, and will continue to be, the reinvention of the struggle for liberation itself. Feminism has always been grass roots and comparatively leader-less, which is a good thing.

Yeah.  So Let’s get back the the author of the diatribe that Rob quotes.  Let’s stop talking about Robert Perry’s notions of what porn is about and let’s start talking about the kind of people that Robert is getting his information from and where the story came from.

I offer this as a retort.  Feminism has long taught that in order to achieve equality, women must break the traditional stranglehold on their lives that men have had.  One way to break these bonds and their bondage is to become sexually liberated.  Stop pleasing men and focus on their own eroticism.  Further, this same “Burn the Bra” movement has produced such ideas as that having an abortion and controlling their own reproductive system finally frees them of the shackles of motherhood.

The original article talks about men who watch porn wanting to degrade women.  What about the women that participate in porn, adopt lesbianism, and want every girl to have an abortion to “liberate” herself from the paternalism of modern society?  Porn as well as the idea that women can flaunt and use their own sensuality and sexuality is derived from the exact same source.  The Vagina is both a symbol of freedom to women and lust to men.  How can that be?  How can the same feminists that tell us that women should be free to express themselves sexually and have promiscuous sex and have abortions and that 13 year old girls should be able to bang anyone they want and have a state funded abortion without their parent’s permission turn around and say that the pornography industry is fueled by men’s desire to have sexual fantasies about subserviant women?

My point--women enjoy porn too.  Women have fantasies about being dominant and getting their offs.  Women like hot chick on chick action.  Lesbians enjoy eroticism too.  They buy their dildoes from the same smut venders that sell porn DVD’s.  The same Adult Bookstores where they get their double headed black intruders are the same places where guys go to get their spank films. 

Why not target the entire sex industry?  The makers of toys?  Fur lined handcuffs.  Shut their businesses down.  Stop allowing folks to have a vibrator or any erotic items whatsoever and to focus on missionary only sex with no double penetration or gang bangs.

Read her blog.  She wants lesbians to be able to do any damned thing they want, but claims that porn is bad.  WTF?  That is what feminism is all about.  Women’s Studies at Universities is about Radical Feminism and joining a softball league so that you can meet other lesbians and figure out who in town has the coolest rainbow stickers.  And she calls white capitalist men terrorists.  I guess I am terrorist.  Wanna defend those statements too Robert?

A comment made by DCLOSER is that perhaps the girlfriends or wives should make amateur porn with their partners if their partners are into pornography. 
The way I see it is that if their men like pornography then it goes without saying that they like the women and men in the videos and the actions these people choose to engage in.  So...why just make amateur porn with just your husband?  If he likes women who will pretty much do anything with anybody than give him what he wants.  Tell him you know how much whores turn him on, and that you’ll do everything in your power to be just like the girls in his porn flicks.
Hey...men say it’s ‘natural’ for guys to want to look at naked women...Well...then it’s natural that we women want more than just our husbands or boyfriends to see us nude.  I’m sure that you’re husbands/ boyfriends won’t mind if you are barely dressed when his male friends come over to visit.  THATS WHAT HE LIKES RIGHT?  GIVE IT TO HIM!
Oh...and if he tells you to cover up when his buddies come to visit; Ask him:  Aren’t I good enough to look at?  If he says something like: I don’t want them to look at you in that way.  Respond by saying:  You mean the way you look at the women in your porn videos?  Is there a problem with that?