Actually Putin wants the old Soviet Union back and he has been working toward that end for the past several years while our Leftist MSM either studiously ignores it or gives it a one inch stringer on page 48H of the New York Times.

Assuming Georgia is not a fully-fledged member of NATO (an attack on any member is considered an attack on all, and the rest are pledged to come to the victim’s defense) then are there any other defensive alliance obligations which the US is a signatory to, which still obligates us to intervene militarily? Such as the OSCE? It seems that Georgia is a member.

A failure to honor any treaty committments we have toward Georgia would have grave implications down the road (e.g. any treaty we sign isn’t worth the paper it is written on, and we will find it almost impossible getting allies in the future) Also, Russia and any other political bully, will take a failure for the US to live up to its’ treaty committments as a carte blanche to devour its’ smaller neighbors.

We’ve reached an April Glaspie kinda juncture here.

This is made even more critical when the wolves smell the fear and spinelessness of Obama — tanatmount to a written invitation to invade.

They might have pause or even be confused by McCains swings between a volcanic temper and his mollycoddling Leftists (e.g supported Chinese WTO membership, MFN status, and normalized trading relations with Vietnam)

Georgia is in the right and Russia is in the wrong

It’s not a good versus bad conflict.

Russia has had a vested interest in regaining it’s old Soviet satellite territories for years, and there’s no doubt any alliance they can keep with the South Ossetians will be kept, at all cost (and others like it, ones with less strategic importance).

Georgia, like many newly formed sovereigns has been stuck with civil wars and economic crisis after crisis after the Soviet Union turned them loose, and is looking to establish itself as a major player in world affairs. They’ve been trying to enter NATO for years, but have been rejected multiple times (In part owing to their faltering economy, but moreso I think to do with their stilted relationships with Russia), and by attempting to consolidate their splinter territories they were attempting to put on a show for the west, and Russia in one fell swoop.

Problem being, they’ve had years of problems in places like South Ossetia, and Abkahazia, and the majority of the population is ethnic Russian with Russian citizenship.

I can’t speak on the ethnic cleansing rumors. There’s been no facts, no photos, and no major news pieces from sources I trust to have no vested interest in delivering to me (IE, Ones that aren’t Russian, or Ossetian). Propaganda wars have been a major part of new Russia’s conflicts in the suckistans since the dissolving of the USSR, and this is no different. All we know for sure is that the Georgians and the Russians both are bombing the shit out of civilian areas (Russia leveled the capitol’s hospital two days ago) in the sake of cooking some soldiers with the collateral.

If they can bomb their own buildings for the sake of starting a war with Chechnya, they can kill a few villagers and blame it on the Georgians.

We have no business being involved, and quite frankly, there is no absolute right or wrong side. They’re both at fault frankly.

Your remark that all Georgia did to provoke Russia was to seek closer ties to the west is ridiculous.

South Ossetia was an autonomous region within Goergia, meaning Georgian troops were not in South Ossetia. South Ossetia has close ties to North Ossetia which is in Russia. South Ossetia has declared freedom from Georgia in 1992 and 2006.

In the last week Georgia moved troops into South Ossetia, killing an estimated 1,600 and bombarding refugee columns and humanitarian missions.

Now the reality of the situation is that Georgia is going to cave. They have to. They can’t fight the Russian military and the 2,000 troops in Iraq won’t make a damn bit of difference.

Ever since the fall of the Soviet Union we have pursued a policy of isolating Russia by recruiting several former Soviet states into NATO. This has humiliated Russia and now it is payback. The South Ossetian situation has given them a opportunity to flex there muscle and it will not end until Georgia is humiliated.

This current situation may end with an independent South Ossetia or they may be an autonomous region in Georgia, but there will be no doubt who controls the region.

Thank God they are not in NATO where we would be obligated to support them with troops.

Ever since the fall of the Soviet Union we have pursued a policy of isolating Russia by recruiting several former Soviet states into NATO. This has humiliated Russia and now it is payback. The South Ossetian situation has given them a opportunity to flex there muscle and it will not end until Georgia is humiliated.

So it’s NATO’s fault? That is right in line with NOBAMA’s point of view…

Robs criticism of Obama is that he has essentially offered words an no more. Rob praise of McCain is that he has offered up words and no more.

Sound about par for the course for Rob.

Rob put a lot of effort in his post trying to make it look like McCain had some teeth, but when called on it by Lestat, Rob caved and showed that he really is just a guy who expects McCain to avoid armed conflict after all.

So what is the real problem here? Rob want’s Obama to have McCains position and pick sides, even though Rob has no idea what picking sides would mean, or why we should.

So, let me get this straight. Putin has been working to destabilize Georgia, Ukraine, Turkmenistan, Armenia, and Azerbaijan for 15 years. And this is all Georgia’s fault? Too fucking funny.

You mistake understanding reality to support of Russia. I don’t support Russia’s attacking anything outside of South OSsetia or sinking their ships.

The fact is Georgia badly miscalculated Russia’s interest in South Ossetia. They tugged on Superman’s cape and they are now being punished and their is not a damn thing we can do about it.

Maybe you can answer a straight forward question (but I doubt it).

What actions do you think we should take? Doesn’t seem like any conservative here is willing or able to answer this question.

Obviously you do support Russia subsuming its former satellites, as this”in fact the US lost the vote to admit Georgia and the Ukraine, thank God.” clearly indicates.

Killing all Russian armor outside of its borders would be a good start. Killing Vladmir Putin would be a good follow up strike.

You really want nuclear war. You really are a moron.

Russia is going to have influence over the countries on it’s border and there is nothing we can do about it.

It is a common ploy of Statists to give themselves some sort of legitimate causa belli to justify their attacks.

One famous tactic was for Hitler to stage a Polish attack on the German frontier. Thus he was justified in fighting back against the Poles, whose destiny was to be doubled-teamed by the Nazi Wolf and the Communist Bear.

I wouldn’t put too much stock in anything put out by Putin’s news services.

The first casualty in any war is the truth.

AV:TFR siding with Putin. Why am I not surprised?

2Hotel9 on August 10, 2008 at 06:30 pm

They are not siding with Putin. They are being pragmatic.
You on the other hand, are a shit stirer.
Put up, or shut up.

lestupid, make them push the button. Go for it.

Sparkie, Russia is a large, thuggish, capitalist state that’ll seize any opportunity to expand its political and economic influence, or its borders, so it was stupid of Georgia to give Russia a pretext.

Sparkie, which non-US news-source disagrees with my version of events?

With a lot of the US media, the attitude is always that Russia is wrong, and whoever they’re fighting is right, but it may not be that simple this time, Georgia actually seem to be the aggressors, and have deliberately targeted civilians.

Good comment Lestat.

You’re not getting it. First, Russia’s thuggish nature is due to it’s communistic underpinings… — A dumbass

Kenny, you’re a moron. Georgia was part of the USSR too (and Stalin was Georgian), but somehow only Russia has “communist underpinnings”?

You are aware that there are other examples of violence by large, thuggish capitalist states? According to your (lack of) logic, the USA and Indonesia must have “communist underpinnings” too?

If you had any grasp of history, you’d know capitalist countries are involved in far more wars, and by any measure. It’s seems to be an intrinsic property of any system that rewards greed and power-lust.

Also Russia has a long history of this sort of behavior, going back hundreds of years, well before “communism” (though they were never communist, communism has no state).

Sparkie, Russia is a large, thuggish, capitalist state that’ll seize any opportunity to expand its political and economic influence, or its borders, so it was stupid of Georgia to give Russia a pretext.

You’re not getting it. First, Russia’s thuggish nature is due to it’s communistic underpinings, not it’s shallow capitalist facade.

After acknowledging that Russia is clearly aggressive, and will do whatever it takes to get what it wants, you then automatically assume it’s claims are valid. This is idiotic. Even now, it’s clear that Georgia is the good guy. They’re announcing a ceasefire and Russia is rejecting it.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080810/ap_on_re_eu/georgia_south_ossetia_98

We have what we can see, and we have what Russia tells us. Which should we believe?
Why we think you guys are weak on this is the kinds of responses coming from you Lestat.

Damnit, I overtyped. Since I’m lazy and won’t type the same length twice, here are my responses to the imbecile known as Anarchist Vegetarian:

1. I addressed that both Georgia and Ossetia are engaging in hostilities. Between them there is no good guy. But add Russia and we have a clear bad guy. That you ignored my acknowledging of both sides wrong proves you’re not honest.

2. If you’re so bloody stupid that you think we went to war against SOUTH Vietnam, I have no desire to debate foreign policy as you’re an idiot.

3. The Nazis were the National Socialist Party. Sorry, you’re not right.

4. The USSR was the real embodiment of Communism. A “classless society” will not exist without government to ensure it. As even MArx came to acknowledge late in life.

5. All accounts of Che’s death have him cry out “Wait. I am Che Guevara. I am worth more to you dead than alive.” when captured. His utter cowardice on the battlefield is documented by dozens. His “courage” in death is documented by one man who was a clear sympathizer who had to be ordered back in to kill him.

Che was a coward.

Also Kenny, you’re confusing Che’s capture with his execution (and his executioner volunteered). If you had a little more knowledge, maybe you wouldn’t be such an idiot? Wishful thinking?

No, I’m using the fact that he was a coward when he was caught to cast doubt on his “heroic death”. I’m obviously NOT confused because I clearly said “When he was captured”. Maybe you’re too stupid to get what I said, but I still said it. There are varying accounts of Che’s executors willingness to kill him. In the most popular apologetics one, he fled from teh room and had to be ordered back in to kill him. Most accounts have his superior ordering him to do it at one time or another. It’s very unlikely that the coward who screamed “Don’t kill me, I’m worth more alive than dead” suddenly grew a pair when he KNEW he was going to die.

So, you’re admittedly wrong on Vietnam. You’re wrong about the Nazis, you’re clueless about Che. You’re wrong about Cuba. You’re wrong about Georgia/Ossetia. Hell, I’ve never seen you be right. You have no room to call ANYONE an idiot.

I know it is human nature to have an opinion and want control, but why don’t we start taking action with our energies? The great thing about European countries is that the citizens do something about situations continually even if it is just a street protest. They are noticed. Americans have become so narcissistic that most don’t know how or why to do anything helpful for our society. We need to get our morals back as a whole and make change. This relates to everything that we interact with whether a neighbor, a political policy, etc. Stop they gossip, start the action.

National Socialist Party. What part of that do you not understand,AV:TFR?

Meanwhile, Bush has taken no side, no position other than that of being on vacation.

You lie again, H. His visit to Beijing isn’t a “vacation”; it’s a diplomatic mission(I thought you lefties just loved diplomacy)
Here’s the reality:

BEIJING – President Bush sharply criticized Moscow’s harsh military crackdown in the former Soviet republic of Georgia, saying Monday that the violence is unacceptable and Russia’s response is disproportionate.

The United States is waging an all-out campaign to press Russia to halt its retaliation against Georgia for trying to take control of the breakaway province of South Ossetia.

“I’ve expressed my grave concern about the disproportionate response of Russia and that we strongly condemn the bombing outside of South Ossetia,” Bush said in an interview with NBC.

&heellip;

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26124396/

…where is Cheyney?

Here, moron:

Cheney spoke Sunday afternoon with Georgian President Mikhail Saakashvili, Cheney press secretary Lee Ann McBride said. “The vice president expressed the United States’ solidarity with the Georgian people and their democratically elected government in the face of this threat to Georgia’s sovereignty and territorial integrity,” McBride said.

Same link. Once again, you prove yourself an ignorant, partisan liar, H.

I deliberately mentioned South Vietnam because many times more bombs were dropped upon it, mostly fighting the Vietcong, than the North (and than during WWII)

AV,

I’d like to know what “research” you can provide that supports your contention regarding the amount of bombs dropped on South Vietnamese targets versus those dropped on targets in North Vietnam.

All the lefties here are shaking in their boots afraid that the USA will do what’s right in Georgia and other places where their freedoms are threatened. Sucking up to dictators and tyrants is all they know.

Georgia is one of the coilition of countries that sided with us in Iraq. We owe them our support in kind.

Russia is backing them up.

Oops, I was ambiguous, by “them”, I meant the South Ossetians.

Meanwhile, H is your typical ignorant partisan hack making false claims in spite of the truth.

what is going to happen when Iran Gets involved? What is going to happen when Isreal comes to the aid of Georgia since the US is spread too thin? Do you think that we are immune to another world war? When you go to the polls in Nov. you need to remember the isolationist ways and the party responsible for that attitude Also donn’t forget about what Russia said about Poland, we need to nip this in the bud with some “Shock and Aw”. Where is Regan when we need him?

You want us to bomb Russia, the country with the second largest nuclear arsenal in the world.

You are an idiot.

Do you think we would use nukes if our homeland was attacked?

So would they.

Some of the refugees, they were old women from South Ossetia, claim that the Georgians came and burned their houses. Hardly the actions of “good guys”, coming in and burning down the homes of old women.

Many villages have been shelled by the Georgians, targeting civilians is a war-crime.

Interesting to note the types you call “good guys” Kenny, you’re a real humanitarian.

Calling the United States thuggish is moronic. — Kenny

There is ample evidence of every strong state throughout history abusing its position, using violence to achieve political and economic goals. Why would the US be any difference?

Short list: Iran Contra (backing of terrorists, using money from drugs and illegal arms sales, against a popular government in Nicaragua), South Vietnam (a war against peasants wanting their own farmland), Indonesia (supporting Suharto despite him committing atrocities, killing as many as a million people), Turkey (supplying weapons that are knowingly used against Kurdish rights/independence movements), Iran (together with Britain, organizing a coup to topple the elected leader of Iran, Mossadeq), Chile (backing a coup led by Pinochet, he then murders thousands of his fellow countrymen), Iraq (supported Saddam initially, even during his worst atrocities, and even during the Iran-Iraq war, then forcibly toppling him once he was no longer useful).

Russia was indeed Communist — Uneducated Idiot

The goal of a communist party is to lead the country to communism, via socialism. The USSR was socialist, it was never communist, a Utopian society that is most-likely unachievable. The USSR was non-Marxist too, it was Leninist, the belief that socialism, and then communism can be achieved within one country.

I don’t know why I bothered to respond to an idiot that thinks that the Nazi Party were socialists, again. The Nazis were capitalist, conservative nationalists (and you wonder why they get compared to Bush and his gang?). I have had to ridicule countless other idiots for such stupidity on this site. It almost seems like right-wing nutjobs are simply born stupid.

Even your signature demonstrates your stupidity and dishonesty. Cuba was a third world dictatorship before its revolution. They still are, but atleast they have decent healthcare and education now (for a 3rd world country), and the majority are mostly happy with their leadership.

Che’s executioner was interviewed, and Che never begged, his lines were something like “So you’ve come to kill me? … Are you man enough?”
The executioner shut his eyes as he shot Che (and ironically, received free surgery for his cataracts from Cuban doctors many years later).

Put up or shut, e? Just like your socialist thug heroes in Greece? How many people did they murder before they were dragged down? How many, like you, ran away from justice and hid in America?

Actually the South Ossetians appear to be the good guys, Georgia and Russia both seem to be bad guys.

Actually, the South Ossetians are not blameless either. Both they and Georgia have both been aggressors and victims on seperate occasions.

The current conflict started after Georgia claimed Russian forces, who we all admit are clearly the aggressors here, attacked them. They retaliated. Their word holds more weight than Russia’s, due to Russia’s known militant excursions throughout the area.

Russia is showing the west that they will control the countries in that region. The fate of South Ossetia isn’t clear, but regardless of what country South Ossetia is formally a part of, Russia will control it.

So after telling us all how stupid we are for saying Russia is the bad guy, you admit Russia is the bad guy. Dumb.

You’re the one calling moral equivalence where none exists.

Kenny, you’re a moron. Georgia was part of the USSR too (and Stalin was Georgian), but somehow only Russia has “communist underpinnings”?

You called it a capitalist aggressor, when it’s aggressive tendancies are directly related to the USSR Communism days. There is no link between their weak capitalism and their violence.

You are aware that there are other examples of violence by large, thuggish capitalist states? According to your (lack of) logic, the USA and Indonesia must have “communist underpinnings” too?

Calling the United States thuggish is moronic. You show yourself as an idiotic apologist for communism andan opponent of whats good.

If you had any grasp of history, you’d know capitalist countries are involved in far more wars, and by any measure. It’s seems to be an intrinsic property of any system that rewards greed and power-lust.

Hardly. Since Marx’s theories took hold, and socialisms lovely little variances took hold over three continents, Communism has been involved in practically every war going on. World War 2 was the result of National Socialism, which was little different than Communism. Communist Russia was involved in near 80 years of constant warfare as they expanded their empire. So too for Communist China. Cuba’s communist rebels slaughtered innocent men and women and killed dissidents as they managed to outdown Batista’s savagry. No matter how bad the people thought they had it, they now long for the “benevolent days” of Batista. Guerrilla violence ripped apart Latin America as communists tried to take over country after country. Robert Mugabe’s violent socialist goons turned a once prosperous country into a starving hell hole. Vietnam, Cambodia, East Germany, everywhere communism takes hold it causes misery. It outpaces all other violent societies in history combined.

Also Russia has a long history of this sort of behavior, going back hundreds of years, well before “communism” (though they were never communist, communism has no state).

Russia was indeed Communist. While maybe some of your stupid leftist friends will give you the thumbs up to this retarded talking point, it’s utter bunk. It’s hard to imagine a Marx’s vision more clearly put into effect than Russia. The argument that since Communism failed it has never been tried is completely infantile. Put in any other context, the person would be mocked for making such a foolish argument. Hell, taken to it’s other extreme, “Since the markets aren’t 100% free in America, we are not a capitalist country.” Clearly capitalism has never been tried either.

Meanwhile, Bush has taken no side, no position other than that of being on vacation.

If this so important, where is Condeleeza, where is Cheyney?

What is unjustified is the continuance of such groups as NATO. It is outmoded, arcane and it should have been done away with at the end of the cold war. But without diplomacy or international law being given any serious contemplation, the only manner to proceed is by making and remaking these frail alliances. If you verbally shit on the UN, you should feel the same way about NATO. But no one does. In my opinion, there is no good horsie in this race. We are being challenged to get involved by Russia, however indirectly. Our ability to practice restraint is going to be more and more important as more locals flare up and we feel we should get involved. Getting stretched too thin and getting financially overextended to solve everyone’s problems but ours is foolish. Georgia just learned that, having their troops deployed to Iraq.

What about us. Where’s our NATIONAL GUARD?

a democratic ally of the United States?

That’s a nice mix of bullshit and reality. When are the idealists going to get enough of their appendage cut off to withdraw the bloody stump? Therein lies the question.

AV
If you believe one of the two stories, you’re as silly as Rob. In the modern world, with all our communication technology… one never knows what the case is.

I have been reading.

This Georgian leader is an ass. He’s baiting us in a big way. We’ll see. I doubt that the Euro members of NATO will admit someone foolish enough to antagonize Putin. We went into Serbia. Putin went into Georgia. He’s already made the equivalence.

Frankly, its an asinine miscalculation by this Georgian. Putin loves attacking Georgia. Its bound to rally support for him in general. Now Georgia is going to loose two regions, if not a their necks. I doubt we are going to fight to restore these two areas that don’t even want to be included in Georgia anyway.

This pipeline from the steppes to Turkey is another story.

Exciting.