You are saying GW has military service?

He flew distant early warning flights in a plane known as “The Widow Maker”(the F102); he risked his life for his country.
Otherwise, how could Rather have lied about his service?
You’re not making sense here.

Nieman, you said:

How incredibly dumb. First, unless you can read his mind or have documents wherein he said he did it to avoid anything, you have no idea as to his motives, you are suffering from advanced BDS. Next, his job even in peace was dangerous in the extreme and belies the claim of his being afraid to fight. Lastly, in the Guard he could have been activated and his butt shipped off to Vietnam and he knew that was a real possibility.

In a 1994 interview, George Bush admitted that he joined the Guard because “I was not prepared to shoot my eardrum out with a shotgun in order to get a deferment. Nor was I willing to go to Canada. So I chose to better myself by learning how to fly airplanes.” (see Wikipedia citiation).
That sure sounds to me like a clear admission that his joining the TANG was an alternative to getting a draft deferment in order to avoid duty in Vietnam.

Yes, the F102 was a dangerous aircraft (However, I would not agree with your ‘in the extreme’ characterization) but Bush had no way to know what he would be flying when he applied to the TANG. Once he found out that might explain why he refused to take his flight physical even after being directly ordered to do so(an act of insubordination for which he was disciplined).

The chance of Bush being sent off to Vietnam as a Guard member was remote. First, the F102 was an obsolete aircraft not used in Vietnem. It’s mission profile didn’t match the enemy threat. Furthermore, it would have been a sitting duck for the more maneuverable MIGs. Also, Bush indicated in writing that he would not volunteer for Vietnam service (see attached URL to his service record (and Kerry’s as well):

http://www.awolbush.com/kerry-vs-bush.asp

So Kerrey was telling the truth and the other highly decorated soldiers serving with him and taking similar risks are all damnable liars and absent honor? Poor guy had to serve with a bunch of cowardly traitors and only he had any courage. Is that your position? It is interesting to note that Kerrey promoted himself for that decoration and pushed his award papers through the chain of command. To make matters worse, after returning home Kerrey dishonored his fellow soldiers by claiming they were all involved in rape, torture, murder and other war crimes, absent any specific details of actual names and places, which makes him a liar!

Who among Kerry’s accusers were “highly decorated?” If any of them were that surely wasn’t widely publicized. In contrast, Kerry’s medals and Purple Hearts were extensively examined and found to be valid. For example, read the FactCheck article: http://www.factcheck.org/article231.html.

The FactCheck article (and other investications) contradicted much of the claims of the “SwiftBoaters.” If you Google “Swift Boat” you will find numerous analyses by various media such as the Boston Globe.

Kerry didn’t accuse all of our troops of being guilty of attrocities but we can’t deny that some of them did commit them. Ever hear of My Lai? Kerry’s accusations were aimed at bringing an end to the war and to bring out troops home. I see nothing dishonorable about that. Of course that infuriated Nixon, who personally encouraged the head of the Swift Boaters to debate Kerry on TV back in the 1970s.

The contrast between Bush and Kerry could not be more stark. One joined the Navy (as I did) and volunteered for hazardous Swift Boat duty (as I did not). The other worked the system to avoid serving in combat – or even overseas. A lot of other people sought deferments for similar reasons. I would not call that dishonorable per se. The real issue with Bush is that while he was evading service in Vietnam he was an outspoken supporter of the war! Talk about hypocricy!

Finally, after taking off his wings (an act that most military pilots I know find reprehensible)Bush lands on an aircraft carrier wearing a flight suit acting like some macho, jet pilot warrior! When he had his chance he woosed out. In my book the guy is a dishonest coward.

And I’ve already spent too much of my time getting this off my chest.

How many Guardsmen died flying that jet?

If the witless child really wanted to know and was not severely developmentally disabled, he could have Googled “F102 casualties”, for example, and found his own answer in seconds:

Regardless, the F-102 was still far more dangerous to fly than today’s combat aircraft. Compared to the F-102′s lifetime accident rate of 13.69, today’s planes generally average around 4 mishaps per 100,000 hours. For example, compare the F-16 at 4.14, the F-15 at 2.47, the F-117 at 4.07, the S-3 at 2.6, and the F-18 at 4.9. Even the Marine Corps’ AV-8B, regarded as the most dangerous aircraft in US service today, has a lifetime accident rate of only 11.44 mishaps per 100,000 flight hours. The F-102 claimed the lives of many pilots, including a number stationed at Ellington during Bush’s tenure. Of the 875 F-102A production models that entered service, 259 were lost in accidents that killed 70 Air Force and ANG pilots.

As to my statement that none of the Smear Boat Liars served with Kerry.

Well….take it from McCain.

Sen. John McCain — who has publicly endorsed Bush and even appealed for donations to the President’s campaign — came to Kerry’s defense on this. McCain didn’t witness the events in question, of course. But he told the Associated Press in an August 5 interview:

McCain : I think the ad is dishonest and dishonorable. As it is none of these individuals served on the boat (Kerry) commanded. Many of his crewmates have testified to his courage under fire. I think John Kerry served honorably in Vietnam.

What was that you were telling me about not being experienced enough to debate this issue Bat?

Yesterday, I wondered whether the MSM would mention the lack of military experience, given how important Kerry’s service was, and how miserable W was to serve in the National Guard instead of the Air Force or the Navy….NOT! Even with the blogs featuring this today, I would bet we won’t hear more than a few mentions about this through November in the MSM.

It doesn’t matter because it’s Obama/Biden.

Well I guess the operative difference between Bush and the Rasta hair-doo’ed StinkyHippies is that Bush did it responsibly and while he served his country.

If he had tried to fly the F-102 (or Deuce, as the drivers called it) while drunk or stoned, he’d be dead. The F-102 was a pretty unforgiving machine.

Teddy Kennedy, on the other hand, couldn’t even pilot a basic sedan over a bridge without augering it in, as airplane drivers are wont to say.

So you can stick that in your ridiculous drug paraphernalia and smoke it.

At bottom, what really is nagging at the back of the Leftist StinkyHippies rudimentary minds, is shame.

They know that in their heart of hearts that others served honorably and that they didn’t.

Their country called for their service and they ran. They chickened out.

Not only that, they wasted their youth, and sometimes continued into Middle Age, if they lived that long, doing drugs and being generally useless dead weights on American society.

They can’t stand to see what they see in the mirror. If they were honest with themselves they would see their own cowardice, dishonor and uselessness.

For those reasons they have warped their own perceptions of reality to avoid that stark truth. They have to avoid that self-hatred at all costs and thus project their fears onto others. They despise the noble institutions because they know in their core of their useless souls that nobility is a quality they lack.

And they can’t stand it.

Kinda sucks to be them, doesn’t it?

Doesn’t being a cog in the Chicago political machine count for something?

To me its most significant meaning is that neither of these people will a have first hand, experiential understanding of self-sacrifice, of a willingness to not just speak of liberty, but to be willing as did our Founding Father’s to risk their fortunes, their lives and their sacred honor in the defense of liberty. To them Liberty is ruling over others, forcing others to accept their views through enactment of laws, of their recieving honors, large incomes, fat retirments, 1st class health care; these being things denied to virtually every fighting man and woman.

It is not about being able to be CIC, of governing a national military force; it is their inability to understand the kind of personal sacrifice that is required of men and women that fight, obtain and preserve liberty.

Robert Borlick,

First, from one Vietnam vet to another, thank you for your service.

That said, I find your moral equivocating on behalf of John Kerry and your disparaging of Mr. Bush’s service to be extraordinarily unbecoming. I have yet to see any authoritative refutation of the Swift Boat Vets’ accusations where Kerry is concerned, and its hardly likely that you can present any either.

Speaking of unbecoming, I wonder if you could take the trouble to explain why Kerry’s original DD-214 has never been released to the public. I supported the Swift Boat Vets, and I would hardly characterize them as “a bunch of disgruntled rednecks.”

I have no particular desire to re-hash the whole Kerry-in-Vietnam-and-after kefuffle, though I am well prepared to do so again. Kerry was, for all intents and purposes, an inexcusably bumbling sacrificial lamb in 2004.

Personally, I think you’ve made for more of this post, and reacted far more defensively, than is warranted. Rob’s intent it seems to me was more to note the anomaly than to disparage Obama or Biden… as you’ve seen fit to do with President Bush.

Kevin,

It does to Mayor Daley.

I don’t think Biden had a high ranking daddy to protect him with a cushy National Guard, part time job.

Nice use of the question to hide your ignorance and your grasp of history is astounding.

All you had to do was go to the second President.

Neither Adams nor Jefferson served.

True they didn’t run together in those days, but Jefferson was Adams VP.

Looked at a calendar lately? This is 2008… not 2004. And PRESIDENT George W. Bush is not running for reelection.

Looked at McCain lately? He’s running for Dubya’s third term.

Regarding criticism of George Bush’s “military experience,” you missed the point. Bush “served” in the Texas Air National Guard primarily to ensure he would not be called to serve in Vietnam. Furthermore, he used his father’s political influence to allow him to “jump the line” ahead of many more qualified candidates. Once in the Guard he didn’t exactly serve meritoriously, having failed to show up for drills for over a year and refusing to take a mandatory flight physical. Why he wasn’t kicked out of the Guard and made immediately eligible for the draft is a “mystery” to this day.

Your reference to Kerry’s “infamous service” reveals where you are coming from. Kerry not only served honorably but actually volunteered for combat! (In stark contrast with Bush’s manipulation of the system to avoid combat). The only thing infamous was the dirty, lying campaign launched against Kerry by a group of disgruntled rednecks financed by a wealthy Texan who is a close friend of George Bush. Oh, did I mention that Kerry deliberately exposed himself to enemy fire to save the life of an Army Ranger and was decorated for that act of bravery.

Yes, it’s true that neither OBama nor Biden served in the military. But neither did Bush or Cheney.

Former Naval Officer – Vietnam Era

F.D.Roosevelt-Garner
F.D.Roosevelt-Wallace
Hoover-Curtis
Harding-Coolidge
Wilson-Marshall
Taft-Sherman
Cleveland-Stevenson
Cleveland-Hendricks
Polk-Dallas
Quincy Adams-Calhoun

These are just the winning tickets with no military experience. I really couldn’t be bothered to research all the losing tickets.

Smear Boat Liars are not adults, they are liars:

Evidence

http://www.factcheck.org/article231.html

On Aug. 22 an officer who was present supported Kerry’s version, breaking a 35-year silence. William B. Rood commanded another Swift Boat during the same operation and was awarded the Bronze Star himself for his role in attacking the Viet Cong ambushers. He said Kerry and he went ashore at the same time after being attacked by several Viet Cong onshore.

Rood said he was the only other officer present. Rood is now an editor on the metropolitan desk of the Chicago Tribune, which published his first-person account of the incident in its Sunday edition. Rood said he had refused all interviews about Kerry’s war record, even from reporters for his own paper, until motivated to speak up because Kerry’s critics are telling “stories I know to be untrue” and “their version of events has splashed doubt on all of us.”

Rood described two Viet Cong ambushes, both of them routed using a tactic devised by Kerry who was in tactical command of a three-boat operation. At the second ambush only the Rood and Kerry boats were attacked.

Rood: Kerry, followed by one member of his crew, jumped ashore and chased a VC behind a hooch–a thatched hut–maybe 15 yards inland from the ambush site. Some who were there that day recall the man being wounded as he ran. Neither I nor Jerry Leeds, our boat’s leading petty officer with whom I’ve checked my recollection of all these events, recalls that, which is no surprise. Recollections of those who go through experiences like that frequently differ.

With our troops involved in the sweep of the first ambush site, Richard Lamberson, a member of my crew, and I also went ashore to search the area. I was checking out the inside of the hooch when I heard gunfire nearby.

Not long after that, Kerry returned, reporting that he had killed the man he chased behind the hooch. He also had picked up a loaded B-40 rocket launcher, which we took back to our base in An Thoi after the operation

H,

There are few things as loathsome and declasse as a busboy who slurps down the last few drops of wine left in the glasses he is clearing from the table, even before he makes it back to the kitchen.

This isn’t about your style of petty rhetorical bullshit. Discussions about John Kerry, Vietnam, and the veterans who opposed his candidacy are above your pay grade, and best left to the adults.

And before you whimper “liberal bias!” like you always do please note that each entry is sourced and footnoted so you may do your own fact checking.

Jack,

Perhaps you should take your own advice and do some fact checking of your own. I have never whimpered… and certainly not before a liberal who is apparently unable to put his feelings into words for himself, but must instead rely on others to speak for him.

I wasn’t looking for a documented research paper on McCain. I just wondered if you could capably explain your change of heart, and whether it was based on facts, issues, and convictions or instead the typical partisan expediency of the “progressive” Left.

Incidentally, my suspicion is that like others of your statist, leftwing ilk, you simply can’t abide the fact that McCain now recognizes the economic efficacy of supply-side theory and specifically tax cuts. The idea that people should be rewarded by a free market, based on their efforts and accomplishments rather than their “membership” in some bogus socio-economic grouping just drives you guys nuts, doesn’t it? Incentives work… intentions don’t mean squat!

First, unless you can read his mind or have documents wherein he said he did it to avoid anything, you have no idea as to his motives, you are suffering from advanced BDS.

So Nieman, did he join the National guard TOO server in Vietnam? Do you have any idea what an incredibly stupid point you have made?

Next, his job even in peace was dangerous in the extreme and belies the claim of his being afraid to fight.

Explain, how was he in danger of combat!!! This should be good.

So Kerrey was telling the truth and the other highly decorated soldiers serving with him and taking similar risks are all damnable liars and absent honor?

That would be the inverse of your story about Kerry, wouldn’t it? So why the double standard? Are you willing to admit Kerry served honorably and volunteered to serve?

…after returning home Kerrey dishonored his fellow soldiers by claiming they were all involved in rape, torture, murder and other war crimes, absent any specific details of actual names and places, which makes him a liar!

He never said “all”…now you’re lying.

Jack,

Looked at a calendar lately? This is 2008… not 2004. And PRESIDENT George W. Bush is not running for reelection.

By the way, where and when was your military service?

So Kerrey was telling the truth…

Yes, he was—and so were the men who actually served with him. Snopes has the whole story

So… the guy who ran so determinedly against Mr. Bush in 2000 is now “running for Dubya’s third term”?

Yes, that’s exactly right. McCain 2000 and McCain 2008 are COMPLETELY different animals. I actually had some respect for McCain 2000! McCain 2008 is a disaster in the making.

More manipulating and twisting from the Smear Boat Liars:

Elliott, who had been Kerry’s commanding officer, was quoted by the Boston Globe Aug 6 as saying he had made a “terrible mistake” in signing the affidavit against Kerry, in which Elliott suggested Kerry hadn’t told him the truth about how he killed the enemy soldier. Later Elliott signed a second affidavit saying he still stands by the words in the TV ad. But Elliott also made what he called an “immaterial clarification” – saying he has no first-hand information that Kerry was less than forthright about what he did to win the Silver Star.

What Elliott said in the ad is that Kerry “has not been honest about what happened in Viet Nam.” In his original affidavit Elliott said Kerry had not been “forthright” in Vietnam. The only example he offered of Kerry not being “honest” or “forthright” was this: “For example, in connection with his Silver Star, I was never informed that he had simply shot a wounded, fleeing Viet Cong in the back.

In the Globe story, Elliott is quoted as saying it was a “terrible mistake” to sign that statement:

George Elliott (Globe account): It was a terrible mistake probably for me to sign the affidavit with those words. I’m the one in trouble here. . . . I knew it was wrong . . . In a hurry I signed it and faxed it back. That was a mistake.

Good catch H.

…he did not join to serve in Vietnam, but there is still no evidence his motivation was to avoid Vietnam either.

You mean except for that little fact that Guardsmen didn’t have to go to Vietnam? You know, when I went to the dentist it certainly wasn’t because I needed a physical.

I never said he was in danger of combat, but as Robert108 said, “He flew distant early warning flights in a plane known as “The Widow Maker”(the F102); he risked his life for his country.’

Oh crap, that’s it? Hell, anyone who works on an oil rig risks their life for their country.

It was still a very dangerous military occupation.

How many Guardsmen died flying that jet?

but his history during that combat service to promote his own medals and to record his own heroism for his resume

So he WAS a hero. Thank you for admitting that.

and his dishonorable activities after discharge have stained that honor.

Are you saying that soldiers in Vietnam never did any bad things, like rape women, cut off heads? Yes or no?

He made general, sweeping statements that stained all the troops with his broad brush and with or without the word,

It pertained to the people who did it. You know this. You are just being childish to lash out.

Had he documented the cases of war crimes and pursued war crimes trials for specific people on specific dates for specific actions, then you could weasel out of this

He had testimony of soldiers who said they say it or did it. He made a bad decision, but he didn’t make it up.

Discussions about John Kerry, Vietnam, and the veterans who opposed his candidacy are above your pay grade, and best left to the adults.

When it came to the Smear Boat Liars, you aren’t referencing any adults as far as I am concerned. They mislead the American public that they actually served “with” Kerry when they merely served at the same time.

You can save your arrogant superiority for someone who pretends to care. I don’t.

Batshit, my last response.

Nor would you be a particularly capable one. Still, you ought to be good at something!

Unless you happen to be a tenured university professor (which, based on your previous posts, I doubt) my education and research capabilities far exceed yours.

As it happens, I have a copy of the DD-215. The Form date listed at the bottom is 2000 and the form itself was signed on 03/12/01! Curiously, the DD-215 “corrects” Kerry’s date of Separation to 03/01/70, but Kerry has not yet offered any documentation (such as an original DD-214) to substantiate that claim. The DD-215 also “corrects” Kerry’s awards, replacing the single VSM with “VSM with 4 Bronze Stars.” This is patently bogus, as Kerry barely served 4 months, and qualified for only a single VSM award. (The official campaigns and dates are listed here.)

Having debunked the 30 ear old DD-215, I ask again, where’s Kerry’s original DD-214? The one separating him from the inactive Navy Reserve?

Batshit, instead of obsessing over the minutae in Kerry’s DD214 why don’t you get a life?

Finally, during your lengthy tour of duty how many Purple Hearts did you get? How many Silver and/or Bronze stars? Could it be you;re suffering from penis envy?

Double post to moving locations….sorrry.

Bat Man,

Go screw yourself. I’m not your staff assistant. Google le “Swift Boat Veterans” and do your own research. There are also copies of Kerry’s DD214 (and DD215 corrections)posted there.

Graeme,

Why aren’t you serving your country in the Armed Forces?

Suit yourself, kid!

I don’t need you to tell me what I am or am not qualified to comment on. Period. You can tell me I don’t know what I am talking about, that’s fine. But do not attempt to limit my free speech.

Without the knowledge or the experience, you will quickly find yourself in over your head.

Perhaps. How many of those Smear Boat Liars served in Kerry’s brigade/platoon?

My support for the Swift Boat Vets wasn’t based on your brand of childish partisan prattle. I served in Vietnam.

Thank you for your service. But your service doesn’t make your judgement any better than the next persons.

Some 6 times longer than did John Kerry. Whatever his conduct while in Vietnam, his conduct after clearly disqualified him from becoming Commander-in-chief.

I didn’t agree with a lot of his conduct, but that didn’t encourage me to misrepresent it.

Arrogant or not, the knowledge and experience are most certainly superior.

You are certainly more experienced in serving in Vietnam. Thank you for your service.

Now, how many of those Smear Boat Liars served in Kerry’s brigade/platoon?

The figure I heard quoted was 68 years since a presidential ticket where neither president nor veep had military experience.

rob

in order to exercise my free speech on foreign policy issues, I need to serve in the military?

No, that’s only what ‘the conservatives’ would have us believe. Just ask Knee-high-man and Zig-zag and Kitty. They’ll ‘splain it to you.

Why isn’t Rob in Iraq or Afghanistan? Pussy.

Great point, Graeme! You do a service to your intellect!

I should note (and I could have been more clear about this in the post) that I don’t really care about Presidential tickets with no military experience. I think military experience is an important qualification to consider, but a lack of military experience isn’t necessarily a mark against a candidate either.

I just think it’s interesting that the media was willing to attack Bush’s thin military record…but when it comes to Obama/Biden they remain silent.

So, in order to exercise my free speech on foreign policy issues, I need to serve in the military?

If I opposed the war would I have needed to go to Iraq and serve as a human shield in front of Obama’s propaganda ministry?