Monday, June 30, 2008
Comments
Womens rights in Iran. They don’t have to worry about color clashes, do they?
You don’t have to be a moron to be a liberal Democrat but it sure helps.
It is only pathetic if that particular women would not want to wear that burka.
If it is her cultural choice that equates to nothing more than cultural difference than there is nothing to see here, except your own cultural elitism and ignorance.
Not to mention their is no indication that is his wife or if she would be required to wear it.
What we have here is a clear indication of simple minded American assholery on display.
It’s a guy wearing the Burka to keep up the image of no homosexuals in Iran.
Not that there’s anything wrong with that.
What’s going to happen to US industry when the global warming extremists like John McCain double the price of electricity? I would think all these factories will close and set up in countries where they aren’t scared of technology.
It is only pathetic if that particular women would not want to wear that burka.
If it is her cultural choice that equates to nothing more than cultural difference than there is nothing to see here, except your own cultural elitism and ignorance.
I’d agree that if it’s really her choice then, by all means, live and let live.
But honestly, Hannitized, do you really think she’s wearing that horrible thing by choice? Do you honestly believe that, or are you so convinced that anything which comes out of a conservative’s mouth is a lie that you’re going to defend the burka?
When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.
-- Thomas Jefferson
Rob’s recently listened-to songs:
If it is her cultural choice that equates to nothing more than cultural difference than there is nothing to see here, except your own cultural elitism and ignorance.
Except it is not her choice; choice implies that she could decide not to wear it. She is required and forced to wear it. Whether or not she minds wearing it is entirely a different subject. The choice to wear it was never hers to begin with.
Sorry, Rob, I posted the exact same point that you just made. Your comment didn’t show up until after the page reloaded.
Not much room for free choice of anything for women in Iran.
...for great justice
Rob,
But honestly, Hannitized, do you really think she’s wearing that horrible thing by choice?
The honest response would be, I have no idea. But neither do you. So why are you pretending that you have some insight here?
I encourage you to actually learn something about Iran, instead of collecting bits from right-wing blogs.
The number of women graduating from Iran’s universities is overtaking the number of men, promising a change in the job market and, with it, profound social change.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5359672.stm
Do you honestly believe that, or are you so convinced that anything which comes out of a conservative’s mouth is a lie that you’re going to defend the burka?
I believe some women wear burkas because they want to, yes. Do I believe every women who wears a burka does because she wants to? No.
At the same time I don’t believe every woman wants fake breasts but they get them, don’t they? Why? Because rich American men like big breasts.
Different cultures do really strange things. It just depends what side of the fence you are on when you are looking into the other persons yard.
is that cousin It?
Why should we have less abortions if you’re not really killing someone?
Ken,
Except it is not her choice; choice implies that she could decide not to wear it. She is required and forced to wear it.
No she is not. Where do you get that idea? Do you even know what the different types of headdress are in the ME? NO, of course you don’t.
This is why it is hard to take people like you seriously Ken, you just get so many things wrong so often.
http://www.voxmagazine.com/stories/2007/10/25/islamic-veils-and-headdresses/
Islamic veils and headdresses
BY
OCTOBER 25, 2007 | 12:00 A.M. CSTThe word hijab comes from the Arabic word for veil. It refers to the scarf Muslim women wear around their heads to cover their hair and neck. The hijab is the most common form of head covering for Muslim women living in Columbia, but it is not the only type of head covering Muslim women wear. Vox explains the variations:
Hijab
A hijab can be a square scarf pinned tightly or wrapped loosely around a woman’s head. Her face will be completely visible, and the hijab could drape low enough to cover her shoulders. Hijabs are acceptable in any color or pattern, which allows women to mix and match with their outfits.Niqab
The niqab is a veil that covers a woman’s face from the bridge of her nose and cheeks to her neck. Most commonly found in black, it has ties or an elastic strap that goes around the back of the head to keep the veil in place. A niqab can be worn along with other head coverings but is not required of Muslim women.Chador
In Iran, women are required to wear a chador when they leave their houses. It’s a full-body black cloak that tucks in around her waist or is held closed in the front. The chador also leaves the face exposed.Burqa
The most conservative covering for Arab women is the burqa. Taliban rule required Afghani women to wear this full-length garment outside their homes. Often blue fabric, the burqa covers a woman completely except for a small square of netting for her to see through. Since the fall of the Taliban in 2001, women no longer are required to wear burqas.
I would suggest you take the time to familiarize yourself with what you are talking about before you open your mouth Ken.
Im going for a run....i dont have time for this.
Instead, the new Parliament has called for placing more restrictions on women’s attire and on their social freedoms.
Since the 1979 Islamic revolution, women have been forced to cover their heads and wear long, loose coats in public. But many had defied the restrictions since Mr. Khatami’s election in 1997 and started wearing tighter and more colorful coats and showing more hair.
In recent months, though, newspapers have reported that scores of women have been arrested in Tehran, the capital, and around the country because they were wearing what the authorities considered to be un-Islamic dress.
Women Are Being Beheaded for Taking Their Veil Off”: Honor Killings On Rise in Iraq
In Basra alone, police acknowledge that 15 women a month are murdered for breaching Islamic dress codes. Others say the number is higher.
Iran’s police stop 10-year-old girl for “mal-veiling”
Students protest forced veiling
Free cultural choice?
It’s like clockwork.
Why do Leftards consistently come to the defense of tyrants?
...for great justice
H. ,
When you see the picture above of a woman burried in preparation to be stoned and you post the B.S. above, you show your real colors.
Please add am I to your future posts to identify yourself as an idiot. This will save many precious time.
atease
atease
When you see the picture above of a woman burried in preparation to be stoned and you post the B.S. above, you show your real colors.
We are not talking about stoning you moron.
Please add am I to your future posts to identify yourself as an idiot. This will save many precious time.
You are about a dumb as they come. Spare me!
There....my ipod is synced. Now somebody else baby sit these fucking retards.
Nice whitewashing of the burka as a ‘cultural difference’ Hannitized.
You know, since you are a world-recognized expert on Iran compared to us ignorant hicks apparently, that Iran was once a westernized nation where the vast majority of women did not wear, and were not required to wear, any kind of head covering at all.
Women are now required to wear a symbol of inferiority on their heads, as a matter of law, not cultural choice.
Like Rob says, you want to defend that?
If you were really concerned about women you should look here first at lets say, the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. But there is no payoff is there. No oil to grab, no war profit, no real vote grabber.
So you let slide the forced marriage, the child rape, of American citizens.
Shame on Rob, starting shit just to start some shit.
No she is not. Where do you get that idea? Do you even know what the different types of headdress are in the ME? NO, of course you don’t.
This is why it is hard to take people like you seriously Ken, you just get so many things wrong so often.
First, my comment wasn’t in reference to the burqa specifically, but rather the fact that women are forced to wear specific types of headdress/garments with the punishment being imprisonment and/or corporal punishment. Secondly, you can’t really be this dumb, can you? Your own link refutes you:
Chador
In Iran, women are required to wear a chador when they leave their houses. It’s a full-body black cloak that tucks in around her waist or is held closed in the front. The chador also leaves the face exposed.
So your whole argument amounts to, “Well she gets to choose what style of headdress she’s forced to wear”. That’s the same as saying, “Well you’re a slave but you get to chose what style of shackle you wear. See, you do get a choice!”
I would suggest you take the time to familiarize yourself with what you are talking about before you open your mouth Ken.
And I would suggest you familiarize yourself with logic and reading comprehension before you open your mouth. The fact that you can defend this practice is abhorrent.
If you were really concerned about women you should look here first at lets say, the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.
Breaking News: Polygamy is still illegal!
But there is no payoff is there. No oil to grab, no war profit, no real vote grabber.
Where in this post has anyone advocated or even suggested invading Iran?
So you let slide the forced marriage, the child rape, of American citizens.
More Breaking News: Forced Marriage and Rape are Still Illegal in America! Rob, and everyone else on this site, has repeatedly said that if concrete evidence of sexual or physical abuse is discovered, the children should be removed and perpetrators prosecuted to the full extent of the law.
But nice straw man and distraction.
First, my comment wasn’t in reference to the burqa specifically, but rather the fact that women are forced to wear specific types of headdress/garments with the punishment being imprisonment and/or corporal punishment.
Your comment was based on the picture of the mysterious woman wearing a BURKA, who you said was FORCED to wear it.
Really Ken, if you are going to go about flapping your lips, please make an honest effort to recite what it is that actually came out of them.
To go back and claim that you really weren’t talking about the Burka specifically sort of puts your ability to lecture anyone about reading comprehension and using logic in it’s proper place. So give it up brother!
So your whole argument amounts to, “Well she gets to choose what style of headdress she’s forced to wear”.
Then why did Rob agree that if she wore that extreme example of a Islamic suppression of women, it would be a cultural difference? Because the issue of the topic was to discuss the specific example of the BURKA.
This post is nothing more than right wing hyperbole used as an effort to slight a culture that currently has differences between ours. We can talk about the punishment of violating those laws, that is perfectly reasonable, but in all honesty, its their country and they can make the laws that reflect their cultural morality. How idiotic of you to argue otherwise.
If they want to outgrow that cultural belief system, that is up to them, NOT YOU.
Further, cultural difference is cultural difference. There are people in this country who are outraged that they can not perform sodomy with their wives behind closed doors. Where do you draw the line?
Do we draw the line at exposing breasts? No, that can be done at Mardi Gras in NO. It can be done at select nude beaches around the country. The bottom line is we have our cultural boundaries that suit our culture.....and our respective laws that reflect them.
You really are that dumb, aren’t you?
We can talk about the punishment of violating those laws, that is perfectly reasonable, but in all honesty, its their country and they can make the laws that reflect their cultural morality. How idiotic of you to argue otherwise.
You don’t even believe this Hannitized. Don’t tell me you would be perfectly happy with the custom of sati, in which Hindu women were thrown on their husband’s funeral pyres.
Not all customs are great and wonderful because they aren’t American, Hannitized.
Ken,
I am not even sure I know what your point was, but mine was certainly clear.
You guys aren’t pretending to be upset with the punishment, even though that would be the only reasonable complaint.
Instead, what you guys are in a huff about is the fact that women have to wear headdress in Iran. Face it, that is a cultural difference that you are intolerant about. It is really no different than girl being forced to have to cover her breasts and not expose any flesh. That was a one time cultural custom of the US.
What this post was, was nothing more than another “I hate Muslim culture” posting that lacked any rational argument or point.
It gets a little old watching you guys defend that.
The point is that women in Iran, and many other Muslim countries are required to wear burka/hajib. And if you”....i dont have time for this.” why are you defending the practice of forcing women to wear burka/hajib? Why are you here at all?
Buzz, care to prove Mormons are selling women as property? We are waiting, with bated breath.
Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem
That burka is as much of a cage as the real thing with bars.
The libs just don’t get, can’t see past their own twisted logic.
Election ‘08 - We Are So Screwed
It is only pathetic if that particular women would not want to wear that burka.
That statement is so incredibly stupid it could only come from insannity. Don’t you think that if burkas were fashionable some women would be wearing them in western countries? Duh!! Oscsr Levante promoting burkas? Get real.
You don’t have to be a moron to be a liberal Democrat but it sure helps.
Im going for a run....i dont have time for this.
Try the hiway.
Interesting how the Republicans in here defend this womans “human” rights and the Democrats in here defend the totalitarian social control of the male in the picture. But then again the Democrats didn’t respect Hillary either.
I’m sorry, I just can’t help it…
“cousin it” - the adam’s family
Why should we have less abortions if you’re not really killing someone?
For his eyes only.
Womens rights in Iran.
Compared to Saudi Arabia, its like a Woodstock festival in Iran.
I caught a glimpse of nose. Hubba hubba.
Read an article by a woman having to spend significant time in the ME, full veil and everything. She related how much back and shoulder pain she had whenever she got back because of the stoop you unconciously take when veiled. You can see it in the picture.
Compared to Saudi Arabia, its like a Woodstock festival in Iran.
Some of the things I give credit to Bush for is getting the Sauds to actively fight the terrorists and their slow, painful push towards more liberal freedoms. 10 years ago we never even heard of womens issues in Saudi Arabia, now they debate drivers licenses. They might possibly enter the 20th century anytime now.
The point is that women in Iran, and many other Muslim countries are required to wear burka/hajib.
That is NOT the point of this post. If it was, it was so deeply buried in that the author needs to go back to school to learn how to deliver a premise.
Additionally, even if it was the point, and it was not, SO WHAT? If that is their culture, that is their culture? How is it any different that the laws we have preventing women from exposing their breasts? It’s all in your head.
I am sure many women would rather not wear them. But many women rather wear scantily clad clothes to work...but guess what? They cant!!! Why??? Because there is a cultural tolerance that only goes so far.
Get real.
Don’t you think that if burkas were fashionable some women would be wearing them in western countries? Duh!!
What stupid fucking moron!
1) Women DO wear burkas in the US.
2) Many more women wear Hijabs, Niqabs and all sorts of headdress!!!
Only the famous idiot Doc could say something so patently stupid.
Wow, y’all got sanni all in a tizzy.
Spin, leftard, spin!
Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem
American Burkas
Now that the good people of America are so focused on liberating people who are being forced to wear certain traditional outfits with absolutely no benefit to society other than to conform to somebody’s favorable opinion of the past, maybe someone will take it upon themselves to liberate the people in the white dominated corporate world who are being forced to wear ties, business suits and other attire that have absolutely no positive influence to job performance. And yet all too often many company managers, business representatives, and other corporate personnel who are the gatekeepers to employment, promotions, or potential business relationships feels justified to judge a candidate’s value or potential to their company by the their conformation to western business attire. No matter how much we admire the company that thinks outside of the box in their working environment the standard practice is that job applicants had better dress the part to get the part.
http://brotherpeacemaker.wordpress.com/2007/10/24/western-burkas/
EEHHAAAA!!!! Its up to 2300 rpm already.
Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem
Here is a hint, meth head. In America, the government does not force women to wear burka/hajib. In Iran, it does.
Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem
http://www.crescentlife.com/thisthat/feminist%20muslims/burka_&_the_bikini.htm
The Burka and the Bikini
Islam has respect for women hard-wired into its fabric. While Islam makes much of the equal status of women to men, it also specifically acknowledges that women are different. This is different from the rhetoric of Feminism in the West, which asserts that women are “equal” to men. The difference is subtle but profound.
Along these lines, comparisons of women’s status, especially with regard to oppression, can be made between Islam and western culture. The degradation of women in Saudi Arabia, for example, is reprehensible, and only defended by those few Muslims who have succumbed to tribal impulses and the inexplicable allure of ignorance, lacking basic human decency as well as coherent understanding of their own faith. Westerners and Muslims (and Western Muslims) alike can agree on the obvious fact that the burka, as practiced by Wahabis and the Saudi theocracy, is oppression in its purest form.
But if we Muslims are to cast a critical eye at ourselves, surely the West can do the same? For example, in the matter of the bikini. Far from being an expression of freedom, the bikini is as much a tool of oppression as the burka.
Here follows a justification of this statement, from an Islamic perspective (rather, of many possible Islamic perspectives. Your mileage may vary). But to understand the nature of the bikini, we must revisit the burka.
In America, the government does not force women to wear burka/hajib. In Iran, it does.
Did you figure that out all by yourself you middle American neanderthal?
Your lil buddy suggested that they are not “fashionable” and that women don’t wear them in Western countries.
That statement was so profoundly stupid, that I am not even sure where to begin to answer it. There are a multitude of responses that range from the fact that women from the ME bring that culture to America, because it is a cultural tradition.
You guys are probably the single best example of why America is so hated and fucked up. Congratulations morons.
Westerners....so civilized!
DUTCH city is to cut benefits for unemployed Muslim women whose refusal to take off their burkas stops them getting jobs.
Utrecht City Council voted for the measure the day after the Dutch Government announced plans to ban women wearing the burka in some public places as a security measure, and on the same day that Maria van der Hoeven, the Education Minister, urged a ban on burkas in schools.The burka, a traditional women’s dress in some Muslim societies, covers the entire body except the eyes. The sanctions also apply to women wearing a face-concealing veil, or niqab.
Utrecht made the decision after two Muslim women receiving €550 (£380) a month in unemployment benefits told the jobcentre that they did not attend job interviews because no one would employ them because of their burkas, which they refused to remove.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article578327.ece
American women who admit to wearing ME Headdress....
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080217135046AAwfFfR
Again, since all the meth you are doing has blocked your ability to comprehend. In America, the government does not force women to wear burka/hajib. In Iran, it does. And in many other Muslim majority countries.
I’ll type it again, V-E-R-Y slowly, so you can read it. In America, the government does not force women to wear burka/hajib. In Iran, it does. Period. Full stop. 33
Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem
In America, the government does not force women to wear burka/hajib. In Iran, it does.
In America, we force women to wear other things. And???
You can type it ten times, you can type it slowly. Regardless of what you do, you will still not have made a point that doesn’t pin you down as a cultural elitist and a complete moron.
The real issue is the punishment for not wearing headdress. You idiot.
IN IRAN, THE GOVERNMENT DOES NOT PAY WOMEN TO SACRIFICE THE LIVES OF THEIR CHILDREN…
Your comment was based on the picture of the mysterious woman wearing a BURKA, who you said was FORCED to wear it.
You’re assuming that Rob was saying the fact that she’s wearing a burqa is pathetic. Its plain to everyone else that he was criticizing the fact that women aren’t even treated as second class citizens, but more like property, and are forced to wear specific restrictive garments with the punishment being severe. It’s not my problem that you misinterpreted the point of the post.
This post is nothing more than right wing hyperbole used as an effort to slight a culture that currently has differences between ours. We can talk about the punishment of violating those laws, that is perfectly reasonable, but in all honesty, its their country and they can make the laws that reflect their cultural morality. How idiotic of you to argue otherwise.
If they want to outgrow that cultural belief system, that is up to them, NOT YOU.
Of course it’s their country and they can make any laws they wish. Have I suggested that we forcefully change their laws and beliefs? Am I not still free to criticize and disagree with their laws?
Further, cultural difference is cultural difference. There are people in this country who are outraged that they can not perform sodomy with their wives behind closed doors. Where do you draw the line?
Well I draw the line quite simply: People should be free to do whatever they want so long as it does not infringe upon the rights of others. And yes, I do believe that many of the laws in the US are unjust. That doesn’t mean I can’t criticize laws in other countries though.
Instead, what you guys are in a huff about is the fact that women have to wear headdress in Iran. Face it, that is a cultural difference that you are intolerant about.
Yes, I am intolerant of cultural practices that allow men to treat women as property.
It is really no different than girl being forced to have to cover her breasts and not expose any flesh. That was a one time cultural custom of the US.
Just because it was once a cultural tradition of the US doesn’t mean I agree with it. It was also alright to own slaves in the US but that didn’t make it right. If the US still treated women like property, I would criticize it for that too. But don’t use the argument, “Well we did it to long ago”. I’m not concerned with or have any control over the past, only the present.
What this post was, was nothing more than another “I hate Muslim culture” posting that lacked any rational argument or point.
Well it was more like “I hate certain aspects of Muslim culture” posting. However, I do agree that there wasn’t an argument presented.
But many women rather wear scantily clad clothes to work...but guess what? They cant!!! Why??? Because there is a cultural tolerance that only goes so far.
But here’s the kicker: the employer is not allowing her to wear revealing clothes to work, not the government. And she wouldn’t be beaten or imprisoned either. Plus, if she really wanted to be scantily clad in the work place, there are jobs she can get that allow and encourage that style of dress.
BTW, what’s your point about the Dutch? I think their stance on burqas is dumb too.
One other point: I don’t have a problem with the burqa (or other styles of women’s dress), only people being forced to wear one. If a woman wants to wear a burqa in the US, fine. It doesn’t bother me because she actually had the choice.
Sparkie,
Amen. The double standards are terrible. I can’t criticize Iran’s human rights violations without also criticizing the Saudis as well.
One more time, since your drug addled mind is clearly not grasping this VERY SIMPLE CONCEPT.
In America, the government does not force women to wear burka/hajib OR chaddor. In Iran, the government DOES force women to wear burka/hajib OR chaddor. I see, now, that leaving off a category of compulsory dress confused you. So, one more once, really, very, excruciatingly slowly I will type this so you may, perhaps, when you sober up, understand.
“In America, the government does not force women to wear burka/hajib. In Iran, it does.”
Now, when you have gone 12 or so hours without smoking or snorting or whatever any more meth you might possibly figure this out.
Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem
You’re assuming that Rob was saying the fact that she’s wearing a burqa is pathetic.
I am not “assuming” anything, it is a fact. If he meant something different, it is on him, not me.
Its plain to everyone else that he was criticizing the fact that women aren’t even treated as second class citizens, but more like property, and are forced to wear specific restrictive garments with the punishment being severe.
There is nothing that suggests he was talking about being treated as second class citizens. The post is about having to wear the very conservative Burka. That was the example he used.
You tried to extend it to all headdress. To extend the conversation to all headdress reduces the conversation to culteral differences that are mandated by government. They have theirs, we have ours.
Rob’s point was to use the Burka, as dramatic hyperbole to make the distinction larger. The fact that you don’t see it is an admission of your willing participation to promote that behavior.
Have I suggested that we forcefully change their laws and beliefs? Am I not still free to criticize and disagree with their laws?
You are free to be a cultural elitist, yes. Now what does that get you?
People should be free to do whatever they want so long as it does not infringe upon the rights of others. And yes, I do believe that many of the laws in the US are unjust. That doesn’t mean I can’t criticize laws in other countries though.
..the employer is not allowing her to wear revealing clothes to work, not the government.
Its the same end result. At work you are representative of your company.....or their property....to use your terminology.
It is becoming very clear to me that you just can’t comprehend the similarities and or reasons why some women choose to wear headdress.
And she wouldn’t be beaten or imprisoned either.
That is another subject.
Plus, if she really wanted to be scantily clad in the work place, there are jobs she can get that allow and encourage that style of dress.
Just not the one she wanted, or applied for.
Get real, why can’t she do the job she wants and dress sexy????
BTW, what’s your point about the Dutch?
To refute Docs completely stupid statement, and to show that we also harm women who wear Burkas, due to our cultural intolerance. Same difference, different result.
We have laws and rules that prevent people from wearing what they want. The difference is only in degrees.
Yes, I am intolerant of cultural practices that allow men to treat women as property.
All headdress does not do that. The laws do not demand women wear Burkas, like many of your idiotic commentors have stated.
Well it was more like “I hate certain aspects of Muslim culture” posting. However, I do agree that there wasn’t an argument presented.
Either way, it served no greater good or purpose other than to demonstrate cultural elitism.
In America, the government does not force women to wear burka/hajib OR chaddor.
Did you just crack a Bud Light and fart as you typed that derelict?
I know. I know. In America, we have laws that force women to wear clothes and not to expose breasts. That is our cultural legal system....in Africa, they do not arrest you for exposing your breasts.
It’s a matter of cultural differences you completely ignorant moron.
OK, I ain’t one to quit. Clearly we have not punched through the haze of meth and cheap beer that permeates what is left of your brain. One more once.
In America, the government does not force women to wear burka/hajib/chaddor. In Iran, the government does force women to wear burka/hajib/chaddor.
I know that is an awfully complicated concept for you to grasp, since you have utterly failed to grasp it during the last 22 hours. Lay off the meth and you might, MIGHT, wake up.
Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem
2HotelWhiner,
Why do you keep saying the same stupid thing and not comprehending that it doesn’t matter??
In America, we force women to conceal their breasts. In your feeble mind, there is a difference between having to wear garments on your head and garments on your upper torso. The only difference is cultural interpretation.
I will try one more time, since you have not, obviously, grasped this vastly complicated concept.
In America, the government(you know? the people elected to office and appointed to positions of authority)does not force women to wear burka. In Iran, the government(etc,etc) does force women to wear burka/chaddor/hajib.
Got it?
Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem
Was that enough semantic, grammatic variance for you, meth head?
Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem
You are an idiot.
And yet, you can not understand that in America, the government does not force women to wear hajib/burka/chaddor. In Iran, the government does force women to wear burka/chaddor/hajib.
Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem
Page 1 of 1
nunez
Craig
realitybasedbob
Carrick
robert108
Sparkie Arbuckle
