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Friday, April 04, 2008

Inner City Schools Are “Drop Out Factories,” Teacher’s Unions Are To Blame

Denver Post columnist (and Say Anything reader/podcast guest) David Harsanyi has an interesting column about dropout rates in America and what’s causing them.

He notes that in areas where dropout rates are the worse tend to be urban (Baltimore, for instance, has a 66% dropout rate), but some of the places where dropout rates are much better are the suburban areas just outside of these urban areas (the Baltimore suburbs have a 19% dropout rate).  What’s the difference?  Suburban parents tend to be much more affluent, and thus can better practice school choice by moving to different school districts or sending their kids to private school.  Urban parents, however, tend to be less affluent and less capable of such moves.

Thus, urban parents are unable to pull their kids out of poorly-run schools before it’s too late and the kids drop out.

So what’s the solution?  I think we can all agree that promoting education is one of the most basic and appropriate roles of government, at least on the state level.  But forcing parents who have no other choice to send their kids to bad public schools doesn’t seem much like “promoting education” to me.  So what we need to do is give these less-affluent, inner-city parents the power to choose a school for their kids.  That means school vouchers.

What’s standing in our way?  Teachers unions, and the millions of dollars of influence they exert on the political process.  The unions and their members themselves would say that all of our school woes are the result of funding issues, but the truth is that failing inner-city schools are some of the most expensive in the nation.

The real solution to school problems is choice, and every time the teachers stand in the way of choice becoming a reality they promote dropouts.

Comments

As much as I despise the NEA and the “factory school” model rightly decried by John Taylor Gatto, I cannot saddle them with all of the blame here for a very simple reason; there are an awful lot of asian kids coming out of those inner city schools with their diplomas.  Somehow they negotiate the gauntlet.

I would suggest that the reason some survive, and others don’t--and a big portion of the difference between suburban and urban school districts--lies in the fact that suburban children--and those of asian parents--are more likely to come from intact homes where work and achievement are valued.

This probably dwarfs the negative contribution of the NEA and even the DoEd--and of course, that’s not exactly an argument for the big budget increases desired by the teachers’ unions, either.

Bike Bubba on April 4, 2008 at 10:44 am
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I see your point, Bubba, but think you give it entirely too much credit.

Instances where school choice has been implemented (see: the choice program instituted in Florida under Jeb Bush) saw incredible gains in test scores among all demographics for children who qualified for the program.

Now, the increase in scores was different among the various demographics (blacks and hispanics saw the most growth, whites and Asians saw the least) so that’s probably where parenting plays a role.

I would say that parenting vs. schooling are about of even importance.  But there’s only one of those two things we can fix directly with public policy.


The war against illegal plunder has been fought since the beginning of the world. But how is… legal plunder to be identified? Quite simply. See if the law takes from some persons what belongs to them, and gives it to other persons to whom it does not belong. See if the law benefits one citizen at the expense of another by doing what the citizen himself cannot do without committing a crime. Then abolish this law without delay … If such a law is not abolished immediately it will spread, multiply and develop into a system.

Frédéric Bastiat, The Law

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Rob on April 4, 2008 at 11:41 am
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Could it be that many poor inner city neighborhoods are factories for a culture of ignorance, family degradation and dysfunction from children to the elected school board officials?

M. York on April 4, 2008 at 04:43 pm

Inner-city public school educators deal with chronic truancy, disinterested, even hostile parents, bloated district bureaucracies, lethargic, uninterested students, aging buildings, chronic shortages of supplies and equipment, drugs, guns, violence and massive public disinterest. They see their union - often the AFT, not the NEA - as the only sympathetic force in their classroom, and usually it is!

Inner-city private and parochial teachers are blessed with that most important resource, interested, supportive parents. BTW, in most cities, faculties at these schools are also unionized.


"Here lies, in honored glory, an American soldier, known but to God.”

THIS ELECTION IS ABOUT TWO THINGS: WINNING THE WAR ON TERRORISM AND SAVING THE SUPREME COURT.

pparets on April 4, 2008 at 04:56 pm

What you say is true PP, but then I hear the same stuff about our local and fairly high achieving school.  In a lot of cases it’s a cop out by the school systems to explain their failures.

The one thing that could be done to improve public schools is to remove the kids that aren’t there to learn.  That’s harsh, but then why should kids that want to learn be denied that right to cater to kids that just want to disrupt things?


The Debate is over!  Global Whining has been confirmed.


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The Whistler on April 4, 2008 at 06:13 pm

Whistler:  Public schools used to routinely expel disruptive students; that is, until the NAACP, ACLU and other advocacy groups began filing suits on behalf of ‘at-risk’ kids and getting them put back, along with court orders banning such ‘abusive’ practices by school districts.


"Here lies, in honored glory, an American soldier, known but to God.”

THIS ELECTION IS ABOUT TWO THINGS: WINNING THE WAR ON TERRORISM AND SAVING THE SUPREME COURT.

pparets on April 4, 2008 at 06:38 pm

And who has it hurt the most PP, who has it hurt the most?


The Debate is over!  Global Whining has been confirmed.


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The Whistler on April 4, 2008 at 07:02 pm

Bike.  Well put: 

more likely to come from intact homes where work and achievement are valued.

pparets, yes and the federal government’s labeling 505 as handicapped just because they do not follow rules.  It took years to expel students at our school.

Communism is evil

Chief RZ on April 4, 2008 at 07:02 pm

Chief RZ:  Don’t even get me started on ‘special needs’ students!  They are coddled at every level, sheltered from virtually every classroom requirement and insulated from discipline… and no one knows it better than them.  “You can’t do nuthin’, I’m special ed...!”


"Here lies, in honored glory, an American soldier, known but to God.”

THIS ELECTION IS ABOUT TWO THINGS: WINNING THE WAR ON TERRORISM AND SAVING THE SUPREME COURT.

pparets on April 4, 2008 at 07:10 pm

pparets.  Thanks for your reinforcement of a little known issue that has wrecked our schools.  Someone brought this up to Maxine Waters (D-Calif) her reply was,
“that doesn’t count”.  The question is about how the federal government is interfering our public schools.  Off for the night.


Communism is evil

Chief RZ on April 4, 2008 at 07:15 pm

The one thing that could be done to improve public schools is to remove the kids that aren’t there to learn.

And do what with them? That’s not a rhetorical question. If you suggest removing those who “aren’t there to learn” you’ve got to do something with so what would you suggest?

Don’t even get me started on ‘special needs’ students!  They are coddled at every level, sheltered from virtually every classroom requirement and insulated from discipline… and no one knows it better than them.  “You can’t do nuthin’, I’m special ed...!”

Interesting. Is it your contention that schools would get better if the special needs students were removed or is your statement meant to be an indictment of the inadequate methods of teaching that don’t actually teach special needs students (or any other students) anything?

Samantha on April 4, 2008 at 08:53 pm
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The one thing that could be done to improve public schools is to remove the kids that aren’t there to learn.

Even in that situation I think school choice addresses the matter.  Given parents choice, and let the parents figure out what to do with the kids.


The war against illegal plunder has been fought since the beginning of the world. But how is… legal plunder to be identified? Quite simply. See if the law takes from some persons what belongs to them, and gives it to other persons to whom it does not belong. See if the law benefits one citizen at the expense of another by doing what the citizen himself cannot do without committing a crime. Then abolish this law without delay … If such a law is not abolished immediately it will spread, multiply and develop into a system.

Frédéric Bastiat, The Law

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Rob on April 4, 2008 at 08:56 pm

And do what with them? That’s not a rhetorical question. If you suggest removing those who “aren’t there to learn” you’ve got to do something with so what would you suggest?

By the very nature of your question you’re assuming that their rights to disrupt are more important than the people that are there to to learn.  I really find that shocking.

Better to educate some rather than fail everyone. 

So what to do with them?  I’d say have some alternative schools so if they choose to turn themselves around they have a chance to do so.


The Debate is over!  Global Whining has been confirmed.


The Whistler's signature
The Whistler on April 5, 2008 at 06:36 am

By the very nature of your question you’re assuming that their rights to disrupt are more important than the people that are there to to learn.

No that’s your assumption. I assume no “rights to disrupt.” I assume a responsibility to educate. I assume that the government having taken upon itself the responsibility of educating the population should do so. I also assume that we the people have a responsibility to make sure that the government fulfills its responsibilities (government by, for, and of the people and all). I also assume that we should make an effort to prepare every student to take part in American society.

I would argue that we already have a de facto segregation of students and we aren’t doing any better at educating them.

Samantha on April 5, 2008 at 08:28 am

If a person does not want to learn you can’t make them.

But who cares, thousands of other kids that would learn are not because we pretend that we can change human nature.


The Debate is over!  Global Whining has been confirmed.


The Whistler's signature
The Whistler on April 6, 2008 at 09:43 am

Whistler.  I agree completely and have seen such.  Samantha.  Hello.  Your background with schools? 

I assume that the government having taken upon itself the responsibility of educating the population should do so. I also assume that we the people have a responsibility to make sure that the government fulfills its responsibilities (government by, for, and of the people and all). I also assume that we should make an effort to prepare every student to take part in American society.

Schools are funded for the most part with local taxes.  The people give to the schools their money and support.  There are alternatives:  homeschooling (unless you live in California), independent schools, private, church and/or charter schools.

The federal government has, by its own labeling (505 being a good starting point for example) students as “handicapped” or “disabled” and have bestowed upon them extra-protections from school discipline rules.  If this is the case, then the federal government should establish and fund federal schools to house and educate these federally recognized students.

Where or where do the disruptive students go:  when the leave school, at night, on weekends and over the summers?  Now that that is out of the way, lets address the very few who are trying to get an education.  First, the above suggestion is not a good one.  Our state had alternative as well as night schools.  This would also take care of that “what do they do at night” problem.

Defacto segregation?  Not that again.  We had real integration in my town of Norwalk, Connecticut around 1961-1963 before the race hustlers got a hold of the local schools and wrecked a brand new 7 million dollar High School.

I will be glad to engage in conversations with you about teachers unions and education.  May I suggest you take a look at my profile found on the link with my name first.  I looked, but did not see a profile on your blog.


Communism is evil

Chief RZ on April 6, 2008 at 10:17 am

How familiar are you with IDEA?

Samantha on April 6, 2008 at 04:30 pm

I think we’re on two different conversations here as far as I’m concerned.

I was talking mainly talking about kids that are disruptive not because of an disability.  You know discipline cases. 

Now there are probably a few kids with disability that are hurting the classroom.  In many other cases with the extra help they get in the classroom they very well may improve it.

No one size fits all law is going to work, but by and large I’m in favor of the mainstreaming of kids with problems into the regular classroom.


The Debate is over!  Global Whining has been confirmed.


The Whistler's signature
The Whistler on April 6, 2008 at 04:38 pm

Whistler:  Disruptive kids now qualify as disabled, thanks to - believe it or not - Oppositional Defiance Disorder !!  I kid you not!

Kids classified as ODD [how appropriate] now disrupt, bully, threaten, curse, antagonize and assault at will, because they cannot be expelled. They are disabled!!


"Here lies, in honored glory, an American soldier, known but to God.”

THIS ELECTION IS ABOUT TWO THINGS: WINNING THE WAR ON TERRORISM AND SAVING THE SUPREME COURT.

pparets on April 6, 2008 at 04:47 pm

pparets,

Interesting… sadly!  A little more such “scientific” psycho-babble and every child molester, sexual predator, and psychopathic serial killer will have a ready-made defense of his actions… a liberal-sponsored, “no-consequences, “Get Out of Jail Free” pass for all future horrors perpetrated on the rest of us.

Meanwhile, the mere image of a gun on a T-shirt is enough to get a kid kicked out of school under a policy of “Zero Tolerance”.


“Poverty of goods is easily cured; poverty of the mind is irreparable.”

Bat One on April 6, 2008 at 04:57 pm

I wasn’t speaking of racial segregation by the way.

Samantha on April 6, 2008 at 05:09 pm

By what measure do we determine that all of the disruptive children just don’t want to learn and that there are just a few who do?

Samantha on April 6, 2008 at 05:10 pm

BatOne:  Worse! MUCH worse!!  How about drawing a cross in an art class!  Wearing a U.S. Flag tee-shirt!  Hugging for more than 3 seconds!  Carrying a Bible in a book-bag!! Wearing a crucifix!  Praying! [unless you’re a Muslim, of course] All are suspendable offenses in various school districts.

Its just absolute madness!!


"Here lies, in honored glory, an American soldier, known but to God.”

THIS ELECTION IS ABOUT TWO THINGS: WINNING THE WAR ON TERRORISM AND SAVING THE SUPREME COURT.

pparets on April 6, 2008 at 05:18 pm

Could it be that many poor inner city neighborhoods are factories for a culture of ignorance, family degradation and dysfunction from children to the elected school board officials?

Could be. And could it be that the same parents that care enough about their kids to discipline them, help with their schoolwork, and raise them in a morally upright fashion, would also be the ones that would take advantage of a voucher system?
Although there may be plenty of fault to be found in individual teachers and collectively with their unions, the buck still has to stop with the parents. If parents are too lazy, stupid, self-centered, or immature themselves to care about their child’s education and demand better, how many of their children, honestly, would take it upon themselves to buckle down, study hard, and succeed? Damn few I would guess.

Good Ol Boy on April 6, 2008 at 05:18 pm

the buck still has to stop with the parents. If parents are too lazy, stupid, self-centered, or immature themselves to care about their child’s education and demand better, how many of their children, honestly, would take it upon themselves to buckle down, study hard, and succeed? Damn few I would guess.

Fundamentally the teachers are supposed to be teaching.  Are they given a hard job by the restrictions on them?  Yes.

On the other hand parents are in a hard place having to deprogram the wrong things taught in the school (not by the teacher I hope) and are stuck teaching the very basics to the kids.

If I’m spending hours working on reading, writing and arithmetic than what are the kids doing in the 7 hours they are at school?


The Debate is over!  Global Whining has been confirmed.


The Whistler's signature
The Whistler on April 6, 2008 at 05:22 pm

It is worth noting that pleas by the so-called “teachers’” unions aside, it is those districts with the highest per pupil expenditures that, by and large, are the most failure prone.

We no longer have teachers.  We have “educators” and we, and our children, are far, far the worse for it.  And like all labor union-based enterprises, they soak up ever more resources while assuming every less responsibility for the diminished value of the product they turn out.  Zero Tolerance simply means no responsibility.  Let the cops handle it!


“Poverty of goods is easily cured; poverty of the mind is irreparable.”

Bat One on April 6, 2008 at 05:26 pm

Samantha:

By what measure do we determine that all disruptive children just don’t want to learn…

By the same measure that those children will face in the real world… by their OBSERVED behavior and performance.

What to do with them?  Jobs Corps would be a good start.  Or alternative schools so that NORMAL kids and teachers are not disrupted every three minutes by defiance, attention-seeking, acting out, etc.

The reason WHY inner city schools are failing is simple: So much money, time, talent and resources are being diverted to the disruptive few, that the many are left behind. If you are an educator, you know that.


"Here lies, in honored glory, an American soldier, known but to God.”

THIS ELECTION IS ABOUT TWO THINGS: WINNING THE WAR ON TERRORISM AND SAVING THE SUPREME COURT.

pparets on April 6, 2008 at 05:28 pm

By the same measure that those children will face in the real world… by their OBSERVED behavior and performance.

Fair enough but do you and the real world know what you’re looking at?

Samantha on April 6, 2008 at 06:01 pm

Samantha:  Oh, puhleeze!


"Here lies, in honored glory, an American soldier, known but to God.”

THIS ELECTION IS ABOUT TWO THINGS: WINNING THE WAR ON TERRORISM AND SAVING THE SUPREME COURT.

pparets on April 6, 2008 at 06:07 pm

IDEA, 2004 act.  On the surface, it sounds like yet another federal intrusion into our local public schools.  If you were speaking to me earlier, my answer would be that those who demonstrate a willingness to learn will be educated.  Those who show up only to intimidate other students, sell drugs, prostitute themselves or have sexual intercourse on school grounds should be offered a different or “reasonable accommodation setting” Glad you have not brought the unnecessary diversion of race, but didn’t you mention defacto earlier?


Communism is evil

Chief RZ on April 6, 2008 at 06:32 pm

Chief RZ:  The IDEA ACT is an unfunded mandate coupled to No Child Left Behind.  It is nothing less than a sop to the special education lobby and parents whose children could not or would not succeed on mandated testing.

Congress was supposed to provide 40% of the costs for each participating state; but, up to now, has only provided about 10%, leaving already strapped school districts holding the bag.


"Here lies, in honored glory, an American soldier, known but to God.”

THIS ELECTION IS ABOUT TWO THINGS: WINNING THE WAR ON TERRORISM AND SAVING THE SUPREME COURT.

pparets on April 6, 2008 at 06:49 pm

Thanks, pparets.  Sounds like more of the same:  “remedial education” that begins with 3-4 year old Head Start and continues through college!  Then we get it again in the form of affirmative action!  Simple solution.  Study.  Ask for extra help seriously and pay attention.

Samantha, if you are here today, I would be glad to share and give real solutions and situations illustrating same.


Communism is evil

Chief RZ on April 7, 2008 at 04:49 am
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