If You Don’t Support Universal Health Care You Don’t Care

So says Michael Millenson in the Washington Post:

Despite much media hand-wringing on the subject, most of us give about as much thought to those who lack health coverage as we do to soybean subsidies.The major obstacle to change? Those of us with insurance simply don’t care very much about those without it. It’s only when health care costs spike sharply, the economy totters or private employers begin to cut back on benefits that the lack of universal health care comes into focus. Noticing the steadily growing ranks of the uninsured, the broad American public — “us” — begins to worry that we’ll soon be joining the ranks of “them.”

I’m reminded of a passage from Frederic Bastiat’s The Law:

Socialism, like the ancient ideas from which it springs, confuses the distinction between government and society. As a result of this, every time we object to a thing being done by government, the socialists conclude that we object to its being done at all. We disapprove of state education. Then the socialists say that we are opposed to any education. We object to a state religion. Then the socialists say that we want no religion at all. We object to a state-enforced equality. Then they say that we are against equality. And so on, and so on. It is as if the socialists were to accuse us of not wanting persons to eat because we do not want the state to raise grain.

In this instance it is the liberals accusing us of not wanting people to have medicare care because we do not want the federal government to provide it.
This is a common theme for the liberal left. If you oppose yet another attempt of theirs to expand America’s already too-large entitlements system (the one that isn’t sustainable even at current spending levels) then you don’t care about whatever victim group they’re busy pandering to at the moment. Usually some combination of single mothers, the elderly, minorities and/or children.
The truth is that opponents to universal health care do care, it’s just that we know government-run health care would be a solution that’s worse than the problem. In order to extend health care coverage to the minority of Americans who don’t have it now, thus making it “universal,” we would have to lower the quality of care received by the majority of Americans who have no problem affording their own health care.
Because you cannot supply an unlimited supply of something on a finite budget. Under a government-run health care system you wouldn’t be able to get all of the coverage you’d want. Services would have to be rationed. Waiting lists would be drawn up for certain procedures so that government hospitals could be kept on budget. Bureaucrats would have to decide whether or not it was worth expending tax dollars on procedures for the elderly. Your knee surgery might have to be postponed for months, and even years, because someone else needs a MRI and the bureaucrats decided that they’re a higher priority than you.
And if you get cancer in your 70′s…well…some bureaucrat may decide that you’re too old to be worth fixing, which is a sad story an elderly breast cancer survivor who came to America for care told my grandmother and I at a cancer support meeting.
Is government-run health care – and all the limitations, frustrations and exorbitantly high taxes that go with it – really the price we want to pay for expanding coverage to the relatively few Americans who don’t already have it within their means?
Look at it this way: No health care system is going to be perfect. In all systems people will fall through the cracks and not receive the care they deserve. Given that reality, our goal should be the best possible coverage for the maximum number of people. And the best way to reach that goal is not to lower the quality of care to the lowest common denominator so that everyone in America can enjoy mediocre care but rather to have a health care market where each individual seeks out the best health care solutions available to them.
Which still isn’t perfect, but at least in such a system the individual has a choice. In a government-run system there is no choice. You either get your care from the government, abiding by the limitations and regulations they set, or not at all.

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  • http://Array Hannitized

    You see, there is a bigger issue here that none of you are “getting”.

    What is called, if you care enough to aid a citizen who crosses the street illegally and is then struck by a car? Is that sense of social responsibility limited only to situations that don’t cost you money?

    If Universal Healthcare provided you the choice to choose your own doctors, and pay for insurance if you wanted better care, would you still have enough social responsibility to “care” for those citizens who are in need?

  • 2Hotel9

    In the end it is not my or anyone else’s job to care about you not being able to afford anything. Period.

    Socialized medical care is a failure, and it strips all citizens of medical care. As Algore says,”The debate,,,is,,over.”

  • chris

    Hannitized you have only by your logic you don’t care either all you want to do is pay for the medical care and wether or not they actually get care is pointless you paid for it. tell me how you care.

  • 2Hotel9

    And yet another spambot heard from.

  • http://www.acupunctureworldinfo.com/ acupuncture

    Great article, well said. I’m definitely going to pass this on…

  • Hannitized

    The old man at the crosswalk was probably covered by Medicare like the nearly 40 million others of his age.

    And what if he didn’t? Besides, here is a little fact you aren’t understanding;

    Medicare is a social insurance program administered by the United States government, providing health insurance coverage to people who are either age 65 and over, or who meet other special criteria.

    Hospitals don’t deny service: so, there’s no linear rationale between saying why is it okay to help someone get treatment, but not pay their bill for them.

    You mean except for the linear rationale that YOU ARE “paying their bill for them”, to use your words.

    That’s ridiculous.

    Welcome to planet Earth. This is the reality, today…..got it?

    Why does the left think it’s okay to get in my pocket to pay for things/services that make them feel better.

    Do you wan’t an paramedic to be a social service or not? How about Fire and Police services?

    What do you think we have as services to support the public? Private enterprise?

  • Davinski

    Evidently, The crowd here thinks everything is just fine with our health care system. Fortunately you guys are in a minority.

    You can always tell when a conservative’s argument is weak; the only thing they say is socialism! Single payer universal health care is not socialized medicine. It is a health care payment system, not a health care delivery system. Health care providers would be in fee for service practice, and would not be employees of the government, which would be socialized medicine. Single payer health care is not socialized medicine, any more than the public funding of education is socialized education, or the public funding of the defense industry is socialized defense.

  • Hoss

    The old man at the crosswalk was probably covered by Medicare like the nearly 40 million others of his age. Hospitals don’t deny service: so, there’s no linear rationale between saying why is it okay to help someone get treatment, but not pay their bill for them. That’s ridiculous. I can have the desire to comfort someone until they get treatment, but not have the desire to pay their bill.

    Why does the left think it’s okay to get in my pocket to pay for things/services that make them feel better. There’s no greater infringement of liberty and freedom than for the government to increase their demands on my labor and pay. If you guys on the left really want to feel better, why not have all registered democrats pay 5-10% more on the marginal tax rates targeted explicitly for expanding health insurance for the poor and other various social programs? Wouldn’t that be fair, because then you’re really putting your money where your mouth is. And then you don’t have to worry about us wing-nuts bitching about the ever-increasing nanny state.

  • docdave

    Evidently, The crowd here thinks everything is just fine with our health care system. Fortunately you guys are in a minority.

    There is nothing wrong with our current healthcare that can’t be made worse with a government sponsored healthcare system.

  • http://magyartruth.blogspot.com/ Chief RZ

    Spoken like a true communist. I care, I help others. Others also have the ability to help themselves fill up empty jugs of water, but some refuse to for some perverted reason. They would play the victims to their deaths apparently.

  • http://proof-proofpositive.blogspot.com/ proof_positive

    Rob takes on a truthful statement and can’t disprove it.

    Troll has RPDS.

  • http://www.dartemis.net/blog/ sayanything-42

    goon,

    Either a porposition/idea has merit, or it does not. While I subscribe to Heinlein’s proposition as regards the true measure of another man’s genius, even such a genius will at some point diverge from my positions. While I grant a significant minority here are reliable contra-indicators (also viz Heinlein on civic duty and voting), they may on very rare occasions find a nut of an idea. Granted the 2:1440 ratio is adverse.

  • http://www.dartemis.net/blog/ sayanything-42

    goon,

    your flattery gets you no more than overcompensating elinas’s did…

  • Hoss

    Oh, I’m getting it, you’re not.

    Social responsibility is up to each and every individual to define. Your definition could be that each of us throws our paychecks in a pile and everyone, including the non-working, could take whatever they wanted. I don’t “owe” anybody anything. And no, I don’t want any form of socialized healthcare (already stuck with Medicare and Medicaid), and I definitely don’t want to pay more to get better care than is provided by a gaggle full of bureaucrats.

    I noticed you didn’t answer my question: if you guys care so much, why don’t you put your money where your mouth is. Why have to rely on my money to assuage your conscience.

  • Hannitized

    I am looking forward to your answer how you display the fact that you care about people who don’t have health insurance?

    Don’t worry, I won’t expect an answer.

    Folks, what Rob has adequately displayed is that he wants the hurt guy taken care of, because he wants to feel good about himself when he goes home. But, he doesn’t realllllly care if the guy he got off the street is saved or not, because if he doesnt have healthcare….well…thats his own fault.

    Maybe before Rob pretends to help the next guy who is struck by a car, for not using the crosswalk, he will ask him if he has insurance first…before he helps him?

    Because remember? This guy is probably some liberal commie who expects to be taken care of, and showed no personal responsibility to either use the crosswalk or get himself some insurance.

    Right Robbie?

  • 2Hotel9

    The ongoing efforts by socialistic atheists to redefine Christ’s words into Marxist dialectic is absolutely comical.

  • http://magyartruth.blogspot.com/ Chief RZ

    I support freedom to choose, the Constitution of the United States and personal responsibility to choose behaviors and take consequences, good or bad for those personal free choices. I do not want anyone else forcing me to choose from a limited list of doctors or otherwise. Glad to debate this with you.

  • http://www.dartemis.net/blog/ sayanything-42

    Hoss,

    The left have only two postures, hands up in surrender or hands out demanding money from the wallets of others.

  • http://www.dartemis.net/blog/ sayanything-42

    Government Healthcare:

    Customer service like the Post Office.

    Technical Expertise like the Census Bureau.

    Commitment to Positive Results like the BATF.

    Government is the single largest problem with healthcare now (tax policies with regard to employer provided insurance skewing the market). Government is not the solution, it IS the problem.

  • docdave

    Typical socialist action – ‘You will accept government aid whether you want to or not’. How socialism/communism is not a form of totalitarianism boggles my mind.

    no, insannitized, I wasn’t responging to your always idiotic posts which I never read.

  • http://proof-proofpositive.blogspot.com/ proof_positive

    Rob still failed

    Rob, the complete nitwit

    I had asked Rob

    Rob is in the moral dilemma

    I don’t really know what Rob thinks?

    (Was that really a question? )

    His logic is so illogical and self serving, it is sort of hard to tell.

    From the troll’s original post here. If he spent half as much time arguing his case (or finding one to argue) as he does fixating on Rob, there’s a fighting chance he might make sense someday!
    (Well, no, I don’t really believe that either, but you have to offer the troll some hope!)

  • Hoss

    You mean except for the linear rationale that YOU ARE “paying their bill for them”, to use your words.

    In the case of Medicare maybe, but not in all cases. And look at what a cluster Medicare is.

    This is the reality, today…..got it?

    Wow, that’s some powerful evidence there. Got it.

    Do you wan’t an paramedic to be a social service or not? How about Fire and Police services?

    A paramedic’s not a social service. They work for a hospital or as an independent, and bill accordingly. Fire and police are protective services, I’ve lived in a district with no immediate police or fire, just a volunteer FD and a couple Sheriffs deputies.

    And I notice how every time you guys have something you want the actual taxpaying public to pay for it you go to the “it’s not socialism” card.

    socialized medicine:: medical and hospital services for the members of a class or population administered by an organized group (as a state agency) and paid for from funds obtained usually by assessments, philanthropy, or taxation.

    You can argue with Merriam-Webster that they’re wrong. No amount of obfuscation can hide the fact that when government is controlling all functions of insurance as healthcare driver (boy, that’ll be great for costs and services – you lefties can go stick your heads in the sand again on that one)from treatment to payment it’s socialized medicine. It’s about who’s controlling the “service”, and yes, doctors would be de facto employees of the government. Changing from “socialized” to “universal” for the term is as dishonest (because it’s a loser) as changing the term from “global warming” to “climate change.” You on the left couldn’t see how stupid socialized healthcare would be through all the empirical and anecdotal evidence that’s out there in the world from countries now enslaved to it.

    I can see it now: well, our socialized/universal healthcare isn’t working as good as it should because it’s just not getting enough money. And like with public education, no amount of money would ever be “enough.”

    Any answers yet as whether the left is willing to put their money…..

  • 2Hotel9

    Plas, sannitized does not miss obvious, it sees obvious, lying on the carpet, and steps over it.

  • http://www.dartemis.net/blog/ sayanything-42

    Would anyone care to comment as to the source of the current system of employer paid health insurance and the motivation for it?

    Subsequent to that, would anyone care to argue the Constitutional justification for “Universal Health Care” congruent with the meaning of “general welfare” as understood by the Founding Fathers?

    Well?

  • Hannitized

    Chief,

    I understand and respect your choice of personal responsibility.

    But I ask you, for the sake of argument, and because this is what the post is about; if you do not support Universal Healthcare, how do you demonstrate that you in fact care about people who are i need, but can’t afford it?

    Where is the demonstration of caring? From the looks of your response, you are telling them they suffer the consequences of their choice.

  • HG

    O sacred Head, now wounded, with grief and shame weighed down,
    Now scornfully surrounded with thorns, Thine only crown;
    O sacred Head, what glory, what bliss till now was Thine!
    Yet, though despised and gory, I joy to call Thee mine.

    What Thou, my Lord, hast suffered, was all for sinners’ gain;
    Mine, mine was the transgression, but Thine the deadly pain.
    Lo, here I fall, my Savior! ‘Tis I deserve Thy place;
    Look on me with Thy favor, vouchsafe to me Thy grace.

    What language shall I borrow to thank Thee, dearest friend,
    For this Thy dying sorrow, Thy pity without end?
    O make me Thine forever, and should I fainting be,
    Lord, let me never, never outlive my love to Thee.

    Speaking of Christ, here is the perfect example. What we could not possibly pay except with eternal separation for God, Christ paid on our behalf.

    As for the fishes, they were voluntarily given to him by the lad, and miracualously multiplied. It was the miracle that demonstrated his deity.

    Jhn 6:26,27 Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled.
    Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.

  • robert108

    In order to extend health care coverage to the minority of Americans who don’t have it now, thus making it “universal,” we would have to lower the quality of care received by the majority of Americans who have no problem affording their own health care.

    That’s not the worst of it; many people choose not to carry health insurance, and the socialist do-gooders want to take away their right to say “no” to healthcare insurance. If you don’t have the right to say “no” to govt, then you are living in a dictatorship, no matter what it calls itself.

    Once again, collectivism requires coercion, individualism requires freedom. Big difference.

  • http://magyartruth.blogspot.com/ Chief RZ

    Yes, Medicaid is one of the latest socialist schemes designed to make people feel helpless. What did we do before Medicaid and the bankrupt Medicare? We relied on our own personal responsibility. We were much more careful in protecting our personal health, we exercised more and did not engage in risky sexual behaviors nor used large amounts of illegal drugs.

  • Hannitized

    Hoss,

    I noticed you didn’t answer my question: if you guys care so much, why don’t you put your money where your mouth is. Why have to rely on my money to assuage your conscience.

    Um, I am willing to pay my share of taxes. What is your excuse, besides the fact that you don’t care?

  • Hannitized

    Oh, how cute, you went to the “you don’t care” card again. Straight from the 2008 democrat play-book of playing on emotion…

    OK, educate me. How do you demonstrate that you care??? Besides saying..”I care”, that is.

    Once again, would you like to see the democrat put forth a requirement that all registered dems pay extra higher marginal tax rates. Yes or no, do you guys really care or not. Quit bullshitting and trying to deflect.

    First, that is just a ridiculous comment. Second, since were talking about fantasy land, as long as only democrats got Universal Healthcare….sure.

    Now what?

  • 2Hotel9

    And once again an atheist Democrat is telling us what Jesus would do.

  • Hannitized

    Don’t worry Doc. You don’t have the capacity to follow along anyway.

  • robert108

    …only democrats got Universal Healthcare.

    Now you lefties want to redefine “universal”, eh?

  • http://dougeefargo.blogspot.com/ dougee

    if you do not support Universal Healthcare, how do you demonstrate that you in fact care about people who are i need, but can’t afford it?

    I have a question for you Hannitized. For those who are in support of Universal Healthcare, how caring are you when reports surface that close to 200 Canadian patients died last year waiting in ambulances outside the emergency room because by federal law they are required to care for them completely within 4 hours of them going through the front door? How is that compassionate? Has any American died because the emt’s wouldn’t bring them into the emergency room right away because they might break a universal healthcare regulation?

    I will tell you how us conservatives care although I doubt you will comprehend it. We want the free market to control healthcare and allow citizens the liberty and freedom to buy healthcare plans from any company, even out of state corporations. This will allow competition and drive costs down. Also, allow people to chose what types of coverage they want so they aren’t paying for acupuncture or alcohol rehabilitation if they don’t drink. One would think that allowing health insurance to become more affordable so more people can buy it would be a form of the coveted “caring” you libs cry so much about.

    But there are still people out there who will choose not to buy insurance no matter the cost because not paying for insurance would allow them to buy a hdtv or get that new car. I don’t believe these people are my responsibility. Personal responsibility needs to come into play sooner or later.

  • http://www.dartemis.net/blog/ sayanything-42

    docdave,

    Indeed.

  • Hannitized

    Plasmodium,

    Hey Genius, instead of pretending that you know what you are talking about, why don’t you fucking demonstrate it.

    Here, educate yourself!! Dolt.

    Medicaid is the United States health program for individuals and families with low incomes and resources. It is an entitlement program that is jointly funded by the states and federal government, and is managed by the states.[1] Among the groups of people served by Medicaid are eligible low-income parents, children, seniors, and people with disabilities. Being poor, or even very poor, does not necessarily qualify an individual for Medicaid.[2] Medicaid is the largest source of funding for medical and health-related services for people with limited income.

  • http://sayanythingblog.com/ likwidshoe

    Davinski said, Evidently, The crowd here thinks everything is just fine with our health care system.

    Evidently, you don’t know how to read.

    You can always tell when a conservative’s argument is weak; the only thing they say is socialism! Single payer universal health care is not socialized medicine.

    You stay on that dishonest track, Davinski.

  • http://insanereindeer.blogspot.com/ Kenny

    The leftist remarks show Rob’s whole point in quoting Bastat:

    Socialism, like the ancient ideas from which it springs, confuses the distinction between government and society. As a result of this, every time we object to a thing being done by government, the socialists conclude that we object to its being done at all. We disapprove of state education. Then the socialists say that we are opposed to any education. We object to a state religion. Then the socialists say that we want no religion at all. We object to a state-enforced equality. Then they say that we are against equality. And so on, and so on. It is as if the socialists were to accuse us of not wanting persons to eat because we do not want the state to raise grain.

    Because we say that the state is inefficient and will lead to more deaths (and can point to this in England and Canada), suddenly were are uncaring. Granted there is no real level of personal hurt if a stranger dies for conservatives…but this is also true of liberals. Unless it is our family and friends on the chopping block, we have no emotional attachment. It’s just that one side convinces themselves that they’re angels while the other side looks at the evidence. Leading to such stupid comments as:

    OK, educate me. How do you demonstrate that you care??? Besides saying..”I care”, that is.

    This is the entire leftist canard that they care. They are desperate to embrace a system that the rest of the world is desperate to distance itself from. But teh facts of the matter is irrelevant, because the “niceness” behind it trumps results.

    Jesus liberals are stupid.

  • 2Hotel9

    Government is not the solution, it is the problem. Leftards want to punish Americans by forcing them to crawl to the government and beg for basic healthcare while at the same time stripping them of 80 cents from each dollar they earn. Socialism is what universal healthcare is. Period.

  • Plasmodium Pete

    Hannitized,

    Go back to my post, note I pointed out that there are a plethora of programs. Now, I know that you may only have heard of medicaid, but “plethora” means there are many programs, not just medicaid, though I used EMTALA, medicaid, and free clinics as examples – I could have easily have said medicare and SCHIP, they too are part of the plethora.

    Though you crack me up with your predictability, it really is sort of sad that you are so consumed by your narcissistic need to score imaginary points, that you routinely miss the obvious.

  • Hannitized

    Kenny,

    This is the entire leftist canard that they care. They are desperate to embrace a system that the rest of the world is desperate to distance itself from. But teh facts of the matter is irrelevant, because the “niceness” behind it trumps results.

    Look dipshit. The post is suggesting that you guys care. I am simply asking for you guys to demonstrate how you do.

    Don’t get mad at me because Rob takes on a truthful statement and can’t disprove it.

    Jesus Conservatives are stupid.

  • http://insanereindeer.blogspot.com/ Kenny

    Look dipshit. The post is suggesting that you guys care. I am simply asking for you guys to demonstrate how you do.

    I addressed that:

    Because we say that the state is inefficient and will lead to more deaths (and can point to this in England and Canada), suddenly were are uncaring.

    This is the entire leftist canard that they care. They are desperate to embrace a system that the rest of the world is desperate to distance itself from. But teh (sic) facts of the matter is irrelevant, because the “niceness” behind it trumps results.

    Rob also addressed your point before you ever made it:

    The truth is that opponents to universal health care do care, it’s just that we know government-run health care would be a solution that’s worse than the problem. In order to extend health care coverage to the minority of Americans who don’t have it now, thus making it “universal,” we would have to lower the quality of care received by the majority of Americans who have no problem affording their own health care.

    Since we have addressed why socialized medicine sucks, and since the facts prove that our system is better than either Canada or Englands (as even admitted by the Canadian who devised their system), it’s clear that our solution is the better, more compassionate one.

    In return, you call us all evil bastards and ignore the fact that we have effectively handled the lame challenge you set forth, BEFORE YOU EVER ISSUED IT.

    So I repeat:

    Granted there is no real level of personal hurt if a stranger dies for conservatives…but this is also true of liberals. Unless it is our family and friends on the chopping block, we have no emotional attachment. It’s just that one side convinces themselves that they’re angels while the other side looks at the evidence.

    Our way works, your way doesn’t. What shows that YOU care besides you saying “I care”?

  • HG

    The ongoing efforts by socialistic atheists to redefine Christ’s words into Marxist dialectic is absolutely comical.

    Comical, yes. But more accurately, heresy.

  • 2Hotel9

    It damned well won’t be any of you socialists, lestupid.

  • http://ndgoon.blogspot.com/ goon

    Rod ?

  • Hannitized

    After all this bullshit, Rob still failed to tell us HOW they display their desire to provide healthcare for those who can not afford it?

    This goes to his earlier argument about “personal responsibility”. Although Rob, the complete nitwit, confused “social responsibility” with “personal”, his argument was that people SHOULD be selfless and help others when in need.

    And that is a fine argument if you are in fact helping others because in your heart you feel it is right. For, doing it out of your own self-interest IS a personal freedom.

    Having someone tell you that you NEED to help others out of their desire, is….well, according to most of the SAB audience, Socialism.

    Now, I had asked Rob earlier to describe how having the desire to help someone who was struck buy a car is any different than wanting to help someone who has a broken arm, and can’t afford healthcare.

    You see, Rob is in the moral dilemma, in that he want’s to help the old man who was struck by a car get to an ambulance, supposedly to save his life, but he DOESN’T ACTUALLY CARE if the guy is saved or not. Because if he didn’t have health care coverage….well….that is his own fault. Unlike crossing the street where there is no cross walk, I guess??

    I don’t really know what Rob thinks? His logic is so illogical and self serving, it is sort of hard to tell.

  • robert108

    Matthew 25:40

    “Then the righteous will say to him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and give you something to eat, or thirsty and give you something to drink?

    That’s a call to personal responsibility, not confiscating peoples’ earnings and redistributing them by the ruling elite. Can’t you read?

  • Lestat

    And once again an atheist Democrat is telling us what Jesus would do.

    Somebody should, you sure can’t figure it out on your own.

  • Hannitized

    Kenny,

    Since we have addressed why socialized medicine sucks, and since the facts prove that our system is better than either Canada or Englands (as even admitted by the Canadian who devised their system), it’s clear that our solution is the better, more compassionate one.

    In return, you call us all evil bastards and ignore the fact that we have effectively handled the lame challenge you set forth, BEFORE YOU EVER ISSUED IT.

    As I said in MY FIRST POST; After all this bullshit, the conservatives STILL can not demonstrate how they care!

    Aside from saying “I care”, how do you demonstrate it? Here is a hint Kenny: saying that Universal Healthcare sucks is NOT demonstrating HOW YOU CARE!!

    I can’t believe you are that negligent.

  • 2Hotel9

    Hey, Plas! Your being lectured by a meth head who supports terrism and wants everyone to pay for its medical care and drug habit. Don’t you feel special?

  • http://ndgoon.blogspot.com/ goon

    Rob said: SCHIP covers people who make more than double the poverty level, and Medicare/Medicaid pretty much covers everyone else.

    That is a miss use of our money. It is vote buying.

  • Hannitized

    Why should hard working individuals have to pay for SOMEONE else’s health care. Go out and get a fricken job if you don’t have health insurance.

    Thats a good point Goony. Thanks for not proving Robs point.

  • Hannitized

    And let’s be clear Kenny. The medical system that you love so much today does not mean all Americans have medical insurance.

    The challenge I have offered is based upon the idea of taking care of those who do not have health insurance. You are merely saying “I like driving my car better than taking the bus, therefore I care about public transportation”. Lame.

  • Hannitized

    We don’t have a shortage of health insurance.

    Idiot.

    Universal Healthcare is not a solution to provide an abundance of medical care, due to their being a lack of it. It is a solution to provide medical coverage, care, insurance to people who can not afford it.

    You are just trying to shape the conversation in a way that you can debate it. That is childish and retarded.

    How can you still say “duh”?? You sound like a fucking moron in every single instance you use it.

  • http://ndgoon.blogspot.com/ goon

    Hoss,

    The left have only two postures, hands up in surrender or hands out demanding money from the wallets of others.

    This rod guy is smart. :)

  • http://ndgoon.blogspot.com/ goon

    Back to name calling when you lose the argument eh Hannitized.

  • Bat One

    Incidentally, even assuming that your purported $40K tax bill is accurate, it too is irrelevant.

    You’ve been trying to justify yet another, enormously expensive entitlement, spending everyone else’s money to do so.

    The question was, given the fact that we cannot pay for the entitlement commitments already on the government books, why would we the people accede to yet another?

    Why make the promise if there is no hope of keeping it and you only drag down the quality of everyone’s healthcare to do so?

  • http://insanereindeer.blogspot.com/ Kenny

    As I said in MY FIRST POST; After all this bullshit, the conservatives STILL can not demonstrate how they care!
    Aside from saying “I care”, how do you demonstrate it? Here is a hint Kenny: saying that Universal Healthcare sucks is NOT demonstrating HOW YOU CARE!!

    We are keeping a failed system from being implimented here. We are pushing real reform to lower prices so more can afford care.

    Other than simply calling us all assholes you. don’t. have. a. point. The reason you keep focusing on caring is because the system you want sucks. While our system may be imperfect, replacing it with something worse is not caring.

    So, YES, saying “universal health care sucks” and fighting it does show we care. We are keeping a system from being implimented that has killed hundreds a year in Canada and England.

    So our actions save lives. That proves we care. What do you have?

  • http://ndgoon.blogspot.com/ goon

    Subsequent to that, would anyone care to argue the Constitutional justification for “Universal Health Care” congruent with the meaning of “general welfare” as understood by the Founding Fathers?

    Well?

    Good point Rod there is no constitutional justification for socialized death care.

  • robert108

    MAybe I am misreading your premise and your real desire is simply to force McCain to the right.

    You just don’t get it, moron, which is why I say “Duh” to you a lot. We have a shortage of healthcare, not healthcare insurance. None of your leftie “pie in the sky” programs address the shortage of healthcare, and therefore, they not only can’t help the real problem, but they will drive prices higher and supply shorter. All govt schemes will result in rationing of healthcare by the govt, instead of market forces supplying the amount of healthcare to meet the demand. You just don’t get it.

  • HG

    No one person is denied medical care who cannot afford it in America. Hospitals write off these losses every year. The problem with universal or nationalized healthcare is the freedom and quality of care we will most certainly lose.

    I’ve demonstrated before how that many can afford medical care without expensive insurance. My appendectomy cost over 30k. I have a major medical policy that costs 140/mo. I pay cash for all minor medical issues which because I have a relationship with my doctor instead of my insurance company, I pay only a portion of what insurance companies pay for office visits. Sometimes as little as $20. I a prescription is necessary and my doctor has a sufficient supply of samples, he will give them to me at no charge. This he does for a other private pay families I know. Anyways, all said and done my appendectomy cost me $2900. That can be paid in a number of ways.

    Healthcare is still affordable and those of us who pay for it subsidize the losses of those whose care gets written off. This is all done without any government interference. We don’t need another failed gov’t program to screw up what foreigners come here to get — the best healthcare in the world.

  • robert108

    What do I have? I have the audacity to vote for UHC to ensure those who don’t have it today, have it in the future. Thats what I have.

    All you really “have” is profound ignorance about how economics works. You will never get what you think you will. You’re buying pie in the sky, and with others’ money. Pathetic.

  • http://magyartruth.blogspot.com/ Chief RZ

    (who cant afford it)

    which is it?

    Or, are you seriously making the stupid statement that people have access to healthcare, but that they can’t afford it?

    People who have the ability to move around, find food, find drugs, multiple sexual partners, beer at a 7-11, make plans to rob people’s homes, find the best free lunch, etc, have the ability to work and pay for their own health plan. They could even join the military and it will be included!

    Your argument can never be satisfied because of your own metric: (people) who can’t afford it. That measure will constantly be changed by the liberals to include people who are now 250% over the “poverty” line, which is a made-up notion. Is it possible to bring every person out of “poverty?” Yes, in a “true” communist system, but then the top 10% have access to everything and the slaves not much.

    Where are these people who “can’t afford” healthcare? Do you think there are any persons who refuse to buy health care for personal reasons?

    Would you force them to buy something they do not want?

  • HG

    H continues to ignore the fact that every American has access to healthcare regardless of an inability to pay.

  • Bat One

    OK. Come up with a plan to ensure every person in the US (who cant afford it) has healthcare and I will gladly admit that you care.

    What you don’t seem to understand is that I’m not the least bit concerned with whether or not you think I “care”. I stopped worrying about the opinions of others when forming my own views years ago. Like accusation of racism, opinions such as your about whether I “care” and to what extent, don’t interest me in the least.

  • Hannitized

    Kenny,

    So, YES, saying “universal health care sucks” and fighting it does show we care. We are keeping a system from being implimented that has killed hundreds a year in Canada and England.

    So our actions save lives. That proves we care. What do you have?

    What it looks like is that you are worried about yourself, and any conversation about it reveals how you worry for you, you still don’t address how people who can not afford healthcare can get it.

    Chopping the cost of a BMW from 55k to 45k doesn’t make it affordable for people. Some people would be happy with a VW. If you want to pay for your BMW, go for it.

    What do I have? I have the audacity to vote for UHC to ensure those who don’t have it today, have it in the future. Thats what I have.

  • Politically Incorrect

    It is a solution to provide medical coverage, care, insurance to people who can not afford it.

    The UK has that nice system. When my relatives were over in the UK recently, they brought one of their family members in to the hospital for a lower respiratory infection. They waited 12 hours to see a doctor, but their visit and medication were free. What a great deal universal healthcare is.

  • http://ndgoon.blogspot.com/ goon

    Hoss,

    The left have only two postures, hands up in surrender or hands out demanding money from the wallets of others.

    This rod guy is spart.

  • HG

    What do I have? I have the audacity to vote for UHC to ensure those who don’t have it today, have it in the future. Thats what I have.

    To paraphrase:

    H has the arrogance to vote to have more of our money confiscated by the government, a portion of it lost to a new huge, inefficient bureaucracy, the remainder used to pay for gov’t regulated medical costs and practices, which subsequently remove consumer choice in doctors, care, and payment all to prove he cares.

    If you cared H, you wouldn’t vote to confiscate others money to ease your own conscience. If you cared H, you wouldn’t vote to give up freedom. If you cared H, you would want the best healthcare possible to be available to as many as possible while maintaining liberty, choice, and quality. If you cared you’d find a just means of accomplishing that end.

  • Bat One

    So then the proper (read: politically correct) metric for measuring one’s concern for others is how much money you are willing to spend on their behalf? That seems more than a little crass… never mine simplistic.

    But since the money isn’t yours to spend in the first place, what if the people whose money you propose to spend object to having their money appropriated and spent in this manner?

    Of course, the FACT of the matter is that there is not enough money to pay for the entitlement commitments already on the government books. Nor do those on the left who are so insistent on underwriting even more entitlement obligations, such as Universal Healthcare, have any sort of clue how to make up the current deficits (Here’s a clue: Obama’s “donut” proposal to fix Social Security doesn’t!)

    So perhaps some less crass and less simplistic metric for measuring “caring” is in order. One that we can afford?

  • Hannitized

    But since the money isn’t yours to spend in the first place, what if the people whose money you propose to spend object to having their money appropriated and spent in this manner?

    You act like I don’t pay taxes. I paid over 40k in taxes last year. I rather my money go to UHC than the wrong war, in the wrong place, at the wrong time. But I view the importance of a military as important as UHC.

    So perhaps some less crass and less simplistic metric for measuring “caring” is in order. One that we can afford?

    OK. Come up with a plan to ensure every person in the US (who cant afford it) has healthcare and I will gladly admit that you care.

  • robert108

    Once again, angry teenage economic ignoramus, the problem is a shortage of medical care, which is why prices are too high for some people. You leftie morons don’t address the real problem; you keep trying to pick our pockets to increase the amount of health insurance, which is not the problem. Duh. We don’t have a shortage of health insurance.

  • http://ndgoon.blogspot.com/ goon

    A survey last year by the Employee Benefit Research Institute found that more than two thirds of Americans were willing to pay 1 percent more in federal income taxes to make sure that everyone had health insurance. This counts as progress, as does the bipartisan Healthy Americans Act, a significant step toward universal coverage proposed by Sens. Ron Wyden (D-Ore.) and Bob Bennett (R-Utah).

    I am not I am sick and tired of paying the taxes I have now.

  • Plasmodium Pete

    The ignorance is strong with the leftoids this evening, I see.

    Evidently, The crowd here thinks everything is just fine with our health care system. Fortunately you guys are in a minority.

    Just so — yet again we have a devotee of selective reading; according to this report only 29% of Americans are deluded into wanting socialized health care.

    Single payer universal health care is not socialized medicine. It is a health care payment system, not a health care delivery system. Health care providers would be in fee for service practice, and would not be employees of the government, which would be socialized medicine.

    One of the many points lost on a sub-literate like Davinski, is that in a single payer system, the single payer gets to decide who gets paid what for what procedures and treatments.

    As such, it is socialized if the government is the single payer, because the government and the armies of bureaucrats are the ones who set the reimbursable amount for any given procedure or treatment they may deign to allow, and who cut the check for that amount. Hence, regardless of whether a doc works for himself or Kaiser, if the only way to get paid, other than under the table, is the government, then that doc is a de facto, though not de jure, government employee. The defense “analogy” is inapt, in that Boeing, for example, gets its revenues from the govenment and private customers, not just the govenment.

    After all this bullshit, Rob still failed to tell us HOW they display their desire to provide healthcare for those who can not afford it?

    For starters, try looking up EMTALA, dolt. Try getting an education instead of hanging out at DU or whatever well of insipidness and misrepresentation you have been guzzling from.

    It is a total fiction that there is anyone in the US who cannot get medical care “because they can’t afford it”. Aside from EMTALA, there are a plethora of other programs for the indigent from medicare, to free clinics. Further, the care they receive in public facilities and ancillary support may not be as posh as something in Beverly Hills, but if the facility is Joint Commission certified, the quality in terms of outcome will generally be equivalent. Yes, there are occasional horror stories from public facilities, and yes, there are also horror stories from the private sector; in some places, the public facilities, for example, a public university hospital, may have better care than the private facilities.

    Now Hannitized and Davinski, you really need to quit trolling around here, and spend the time getting educated.

  • http://insanereindeer.blogspot.com/ Kenny

    What it looks like is that you are worried about yourself, and any conversation about it reveals how you worry for you, you still don’t address how people who can not afford healthcare can get it.

    I’m not insured. I will be unaffected by UHC one way or the other. I pay for my health care costs out of pocket. It’s less expensive for me than having insurance. I have however, seen the joys of UHC up close and personal. Walter Reed was government run health care. My father is dead because of the idiocy of government health care. While I no longer have a horse in the race, I still have seen the joys of what awaits everyone else under UHC

    Chopping the cost of a BMW from 55k to 45k doesn’t make it affordable for people. Some people would be happy with a VW. If you want to pay for your BMW, go for it.

    .

    Right. But forcing people to buy the BMW when all they want is the VW makes it unaffordable. If the government mandated automobiles like it does health care, a lot less cars would be on the road.

    What do I have? I have the audacity to vote for UHC to ensure those who don’t have it today, have it in the future. Thats what I have.

    And as I said. That system SUCKS. England’s cutting back on it. Canadians flood over the border to our hospitals. Cuban single payer system is a nightmare. You are trying to impliment in America the system that the whole rest of the world found out didn’t work.

    So at the end of the day, all that shows that you care is that you say “I care!” Your actions say otherwize. That’s not compassion. That’s simply you voting for something that’ll make you feel better about yourself, and to hell with how it’ll affect others.

    OK. Come up with a plan to ensure every person in the US (who cant afford it) has healthcare and I will gladly admit that you care.

    No one here, including yourself, can do that. I can’t afford health care. And being a 25 year old guy, who’s only health problems are the occasional ingrown toenail and flu, I wouldn’t pay for health care if it cost me 30 bucks a month. Therefore, since I will continue to list it as something I can’t afford…no plan will satisfy your criteria.

    Your critria is stupid anyways.

  • Hoss

    Um, I am willing to pay my share of taxes. What is your excuse, besides the fact that you don’t care?

    Oh, how cute, you went to the “you don’t care” card again. Straight from the 2008 democrat play-book of playing on emotion when getting your ass stomped with logic. Nothings ever enough for you guys. I get smacked by the AMT every year, I don’t need some nanny-stater telling me I’m not paying my fair share. Once again, would you like to see the democrat put forth a requirement that all registered dems pay extra higher marginal tax rates. Yes or no, do you guys really care or not. Quit bullshitting and trying to deflect.

  • http://sayanythingblog.com/readers/author/realitybasedbob/ realitybasedbob

    Yes, the fishes and the loaves was one of the older socialist schemes designed to make people feel helpless. What did we do before the fishes and loaves? We relied on our own personal responsibility and unfortunately some of our people starved to death. But that’s the way it goes sometimes. Why waste my fish on someone who has no arms to fish with. Besides he was old anyway and his employer didn’t have health insurance. That’s his problem right, RZ?

    Matthew 25:40

    “Then the righteous will say to him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and give you something to eat, or thirsty and give you something to drink?

    Do ya know what comes next, RZ, do ya?

  • Hannitized

    Hey, Plas! Your being lectured by a meth head who supports terrism and wants everyone to pay for its medical care and drug habit. Don’t you feel special?

    Hey gut shooter, do you want to compare resumes?

  • http://magyartruth.blogspot.com/ Chief RZ

    Hannitized: If we are to be free, we must be free to decide how to spend our time and efforts. Money is just one way to exchange these things. If, and I repeat, If “a person” is concerned about their health, then they will spend their time and efforts enhancing their health. Some people, Hannitized, you must admit do not care about their health. The use and abuse illegal drugs, risky sexual behaviors, etc.

    Shall we continue? The repair or patching up on one is just one part of health care. Same thing with economic resources. That person would, for example decide not to have a luxury car (SUV) or a large house, or hundreds of clothes, etc. and instead put their money into health insurance.

    Do you understand this concept?

  • Spartacus

    Look up the definition of parasite.

    par·a·site Audio Help /ˈpærəˌsaɪt/ Pronunciation Key – Show Spelled Pronunciation[par-uh-sahyt] Pronunciation Key – Show IPA Pronunciation
    –noun
    2. a person who receives support, advantage, or the like, from another or others without giving any useful or proper return, as one who lives on the hospitality of others.

    Seems to fit most of those yelling the loudest in favor of UHC.

  • Over Hannitized

    To Hannitized:

    It’s been proven… ignorant people use profanity when they can’t come up with anything else. And why so insulting? Can’t you just have a discussion without the personal attacks? I would give much more credence to what you say if you weren’t so antagonistic. You sound just like my children when they argue. Trying to make someone else look stupid does not make you look smarter… just makes you look like a jerk.

  • Dave

    Its not a question about the poor getting care which the original article seemed to say most about. The poor DO get care and they do not owe a cent on it if they know how to use the current system.

    The problem of health care is for people like me, middle class income, independent contractor, denied health insurance for my high blood pressure. I cannot go and get an emergency procedure. Sure I can afford a doctor’s visit. But if I need major care I am SOL. I have to decide whether I get care or lose my house. I’d rather die and give my house to my family than the hospital.
    Hospitals overcharge private pay people in a major way. Insurance companies force both doctors and hospitals to lose money to care for the insured, then they pass the costs to people like me and all the rest of their losses they use to cover up any profit.
    The insurance companies have perverted the health care system and have all the political power. I do not care about universal health care. I want to bankrupt the insurance companies, I want them punished for manipulating the half-socialist system we currently have. Then once everyone is broke and the system is totally thrown out, we can start over again without all the special rules that are in place now.

  • Ron

    I’m not sure what Hannitized is going on about earlier on this thread. Is he saying that it’s impossible to both 1) disagree with National Healthcare… and 2) care about those without healthcare?

    If he says that 1 and 2 are impossible, I disagree.

    National Healthcare will force everyone to pay for everyone’s healthcare. I don’t want to be forced to pay for the healthcare of others. I don’t want to be forced to pay for my own. I want to pay for my own healthcare and my own healthcare only. If I choose not to pay, I should accept the consequences.

    This doesn’t mean that I don’t care about other people.

    If I see a man, in the street, hurt… and he doesn’t have insurance, I’d help him. I’d care about his health. I may contribute to certain charities or private organizations that this man could turn to for help. This doesn’t mean that I’d want to support a National Healthcare program which forces charity.

  • http://magyartruth.blogspot.com/ Chief RZ

    HG. Welcome. Thank you for pointing out the personal responsibility that each of the 12 took in giving up their own personal lives to follow our Lord Jesus Christ.
    robert108, thanks for your quote. I had gone out with my family.

    That’s a call to personal responsibility, not confiscating peoples’ earnings and redistributing them by the ruling elite.

    Render unto Caesar what is Caesar’s and unto the Lord, what is His.
    What trying times to have lived under the total control with no way to vote them out of office, and yet have had Christ our Savior on the earth at the same time.

  • http://ndgoon.blogspot.com/ goon

    And let’s be clear Kenny. The medical system that you love so much today does not mean all Americans have medical insurance.

    Why should hard working individuals have to pay for SOMEONE else’s health care. Go out and get a fricken job if you don’t have health insurance.

  • Mark

    Hannitized, you are an idiot.
    I’m a medical student who volunteers at charitable clinics a couple of times a week. Seeing patients in that environment is a great way to provide healthcare for those who need it and can’t afford it. What do most people in this country need? They don’t need expensive hospital stays and lung transplants – they need preventive medicine and good primary care. That can be provided by good doctors, nurses, PA’s etc. on a volunteer basis.
    Your logic is also contingent on the idea that the government exists to meet all of people’s needs. Do we see that in the founding father’s intentions? They seemed to believe that the federal government existed to provide for the national defense and establish free commerce between the states.
    In many counties, paramedic services are provided via privatized contract services, so they are not a ‘socialized’ endeavor. Besides – if those are managed at a local level, can’t healthcare be managed the same way? We don’t need a federal system for doing it.
    The issue here is not whether or not people have value as human beings (of course they do) but whether or not medical care should be a universal right to every person in the country. If we are going to include medical care, why don’t we also include all of the other necessities? To argue that medical care should be covered for everyone by the federal government because it is a necessity means you have to extrapolate that and say that the government should also provide food, housing, clothing, gas, water/electric bills and education for everyone in the country. In essence – we would only be responsible for paying for luxuries of life – vacations, eating out, going to movies, etc. I doubt we could afford any of those if our income were being taken to provide for the rest of the nation to live. Sounds like communism.

  • Bat One

    I’m not sure what Hannitized is going on about earlier on this thread.

    Ron,

    Its highly unlikely that anyone else knows either… and that includes Hannitized himself!

  • Puzzlefeet

    Over hannitized: you’re gonna love 2hotel9. He’s got the best profanity laced writing on this blog.

  • http://magyartruth.blogspot.com/ Chief RZ

    No reply. No answers, not even more questions. This issue is an attempt to put government in charge of paying doctors and hospitals. The next logical step will be to federalize hospitals and doctors. The first could be done because they are just bricks and steel. The second would be enslaving persons to work for government forced wages.

    Our system is the best in the world. Keeping government out of our health delivery system would be a good thing.

    I am a bit frustrated that no one will debate this issue, but then again, we would get around to personal responsibility for prevention and maintenance and the liberals do not want to look at that.

  • http://sayanythingblog.com/ likwidshoe

    Ask any hard left radical if they trust the government.

    They invariably say “NO!”.

    Serious questions abound about the sanity of people who would give their health care over to a group that they don’t trust.

    I say “no”. But who’s asking? I’m made out to be some kind of heartless demon if I wish to keep control of my own health care.

  • Hannitized

    H continues to ignore the fact that every American has access to healthcare regardless of an inability to pay.

    I am assuming that you meant to say that they have access to healthcare and will get it, without having to pay?

    Or, are you seriously making the stupid statement that people have access to healthcare, but that they can’t afford it?

  • Steve L.

    As someone with Medicare (because of a disease and not age) and private insurance, I can tell you that Medicare is no great shakes. The Medicare premiums are better (about $140 a month for Parts A, B and drug coverage.) However, under Medicare, you pay a 20% co-pay on everything. I have dialysis three times a week. Under my private insurance, I pay nothing. Under Medicare, I would be forced to pay 20% of $17,000 or so a month.

    If it is going to be free for poor folks, it is going to gouge the rest of us.

  • 2Hotel9

    sanni gets exactly what it earns. As do you.

  • http://sayanythingblog.com robport

    After all this bullshit, Rob still failed to tell us HOW they display their desire to provide healthcare for those who can not afford it?

    We already provide health care to people who can’t afford it. SCHIP covers people who make more than double the poverty level, and Medicare/Medicaid pretty much covers everyone else.

    Plus, no hospital can deny emergency care to anyone.

    Evidently, The crowd here thinks everything is just fine with our health care system. Fortunately you guys are in a minority.

    That’s not actually true. I think there’s a lot wrong with our health care system, it’s just that I don’t think government-run health care is the answer to those problems.

    I think we could go a long way toward making health care and health insurance a lot more affordable by doing things like emphasizing health savings accounts, which introduce market forces into the health care industry, and ending insurance mandates which force millions of Americans to pay for coverage they don’t want or need.

    For instance, why am I being forced to pay for coverage for addiction counseling? I don’t have any drug or alcohol problems. I don’t gamble. I don’t plan on ever using that coverage, and if I did suddenly need it one day I could probably afford to pay for it out of my own pocket?

    So why not let me keep an extra $20/paycheck so I don’t have to pay for that?

    There are plenty of problems lie that in our health care system that could be fixed, but all you liberals can think about is getting control of the health care system by nationalizing it.

    After all, what better way to control people than to control their health care?

  • http://sayanythingblog.com/readers/author/sparkiearbuckle sayanything-81

    He’s got the best profanity laced writing on this blog.

    Its pretty admirable!

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