Say Anything Blog

Did they give an estimate of what it would cost if we didn’t get ANY legislation passed.

I’d take 500,000 illegals over another 6 million any day (1/2 of 12 million who came here over a span of 20 years).

Why should we have less abortions if it’s not really killing someone?

Rob, this CBO study is the first objective measure I’ve seen.

I’m afraid I’ve mostly stayed clear of the debate on this blog, because I see a lot of hot tempers with lots of “gotcha! politics” usually reserved for the left. 

There isn’t much or any room for rational discussion in that atmosphere.

In the mean time Will raises a valid point… what’s the cost of doing nothing?

I’m sorry, the cost of doing nothing, i.e. status quo, is better then passing some patchwork comprehensive illegal immigration reform that does nothing that isn’t already covered with current laws on the books, with the exception of some new Government systems and bureaucracy.  National Review Online has done an excellent job debunking and correcting the claims proponents of this bill continue to make.

This bill is wrong and addresses the wrong issues.  We want enforcement and border security first before dealing with the illegals already here.  The government needs to show us that they can stem the flow of illegals first before taking care of those already here.  The triggers in the this bill are unclear and subjective.  They have no teeth and will not handle the increase in illegal immigration this bill is sure to cause. 

We have been let down by our government time and time again when it came to do something about illegals, why are we supposed to believe this comprehensive reform package is the real deal?

I’m sorry, the cost of doing nothing, i.e. status quo, is better then passing some patchwork comprehensive illegal immigration reform…

this is clearly where I differ with you. Rome wasn’t built in a day my friend.

Why should we have less abortions if it’s not really killing someone?

will, why do you think that this time around we are actually going to enforce this new law?

What makes you think that an already strained, undermanned government agency can handle this increased workload this bill is sure to require?

Why the need for some new fancy comprehensive bill when we already have laws on the books that do exactly what this bill does, the exception being a ridiculous Z-visa.  People here on legal immigrant visas will have less rights than those illegals who suddently get this Z-visa, it’s obscene and insulting to everyone who has immigrated here legally. 

What makes you think that the border is going to be secured first with this bill and how soon do you think that will happen?

What assurances have we been given?

why do you think that this time around we are actually going to enforce this new law?

Someone on the other immigration thread accused me of being a “defeatist” by “giving into this bill”. I have to tell you this is even more of a defeatist attitude. It’s been 20 years, we have a chance to try this again.

Look, to me, it’s worth a shot. It sounds like almost all conservatives like what the bill will do in terms of stopping new immigration regarding building better walls, technology, and agents.

Why should we have less abortions if it’s not really killing someone?

It sounds like almost all conservatives like what the bill will do in terms of stopping new immigration regarding building better walls, technology, and agents.

I’d really be interested in knowing those you would term “most conservatives” as it is tied to your above statement?

I’d really be interested in knowing those you would term “most conservatives” as it is tied to your above statement?

I was considering you, for example. Is there more in the actual bill they could do that you want? If so, what specifically? And I’m not talking about the Z-Visa. I’m talking about in terms of locking down the border for future illegals.

Why should we have less abortions if it’s not really killing someone?

No on immigration bill…inforce laws we have!!!

inforce

enforce

btw, CONGRESSS - DOES - NOT - ENFORCE - LAWS

...they make laws. And everyone keeps complaining about how congress isn’t doing anything. But they did - they made the law decades ago. So, you have a democratic congress and people screaming to fix it. So, if you’re a republican, it’s reasonable that they try to agree with a bill like this. They feel they need to react to the people. The problem is the people are barking up the wrong tree. They need to talk to law enforcement (attorney general or border patrol, yes?). The president?

Conservatives don’t have a plan on this, really. That’s what we always accused liberals of not having. And really, I’m sick of hearing “enforce the laws”. That’s not a plan. Saying that doesn’t change JACK SQUAT. That’s a stick in the mud “my way or the highway” attitude. It doesn’t motivate anybody to enforce the laws.

So if you’ve got a better idea, write your own plan. If you don’t, quit whining.

Why should we have less abortions if it’s not really killing someone?

As a LEGAL immigrant to many countries before comming to America, I have something to say. I was considered a refugee by U.S. policy and granted the privilage….and that’s what it is, to come to U.S. I waited 9 years. My country doesn’t even exist anymore, I moved to 3 locations in EU waiting for my time to come to U.S. Now as I waited for 9 years so did my children, our lives on hold job, proper school for children, but wait we did, hoping that the life we wait for is better. But I didn’t know all we had to do was fly to mexico and walk across. Like honest people we did things “correctly” and paid the cost. My children who had their land ripped from them through war were put WAY behind drug smugglers, and criminals. NO OTHER COUNTRY does this. The immigration policy from 86 puts the lowest common denominator first. I find the American people a caring people, but many misguided. You cannot ensure anything for these people. Many systems of gov. are near ruin. U.S. couldn’t take care of places hit with catastrophik weather but we can take care of 12 million plus people with the same broken infastructure??? There is nothing wrong with fixing these things first instead of trying to look humanitarian and failing at all levels.  Please read this I found interesting. Thank you for everything America, let’s not take advantage of her in the name of humanity.

http://www.hawaiireporter.com/story.aspx?e22672c4-b938-4bc6-bc25-f4775a27119d

Will,

Perhaps its just my age, but I don’t recall anyone screaming for another immigration reform bill.  What people want is for current laws to be enforced, for the borders, particularly our southern border, to be secured, and then, and only then, to develop a consensus on how to reform our immigration laws and processes.  The idea of “catch and release” policies toward illegal aliens is an insult to everyone else legally in this country.  If the feds, the Border Patrol, the various state police and local law enforcement aren’t enforcing the law, then we need to replace them.  Any of them.

After all, if we aren’t going to enforce the laws currently on the books, what’s the point of writing more laws?

“Capitalism is optimism monetized.”

Carrick,

I’m afraid I’ve mostly stayed clear of the debate on this blog, because I see a lot of hot tempers with lots of “gotcha! politics” usually reserved for the left.

I guess I haven’t noticed the debate over illegal immigration be all that different on this blog than debates over other subjects…

But, frankly, I think not passing an illegal immigration bill at this point is better than passing one that gives illegals more reason to come here.

When we granted amnesty during the Reagan administration illegal immigration jumped.  Why wouldn’t it happen again this time?

The purpose of government shouldn’t be to do good, but simply to refrain from doing evil.

Rob, there is a hard edge on this debate that I have seen on few other topics.  We have people on this blog discussing the impeachment of Bush over it. 

When people get made enough, all you’re going to do by confronting them is draw their fire.

However, I’m like you.. I think the current bill is terribly flawed, and should be replaced by a series of bills addressing border security, internal US enforcement (a point raised by future US President The Whistler), and finally a normalization process.

As I’ve said on other threads, I really think that getting real data is part of the answer.  We need a “virtual fence” not just to stop terrorists but because it can be used to hold our congresscritters accountable for their actions or lack of it.

The failed “comprehensive immigration bill” would have given amnesty to an unknown number of people who broke our laws. While the number 10-12 million is bantered about, many experts believe it to be 2-3 times this number. Since the proposed fine was a joke and payable in installments and the English requirement only required that you say you’re on a list to learn English, and the fact that the length of the wall was cut in half (of what was already voted into law a year and a half ago), it is obvious that politicians are simply pandering to future voting blocks in exchange for our country’s future. 10-12 or 20-30 million people given amnesty can bring all their relatives….mostly uneducated, unskilled, and non-English speaking. This is a social and economic disaster waiting to happen. We will become the largest welfare state in the world.
Natural attrition can occur if we deny any government benefits (including birthright citizenship which ties one into government services immediately), and strictly and forcefully fining and taking the license of any business that hires illegal aliens.
There are billions of poor people in the world who would like to have a better life. It’s not practical to personally take care of every one. There are probably things we can do to help countries increase the job opportunities there.
Amnesty, path to citizenship, regularization, or whatever ridiculous name you want to call it….we are selling out our country to a 3rd world country who just happens to live next door. I don’t blame the illegal aliens…the fault lies with the Mexican governments willing to let us care for over 10% of their poor (even though they are NOT a poor country) PLUS our own government giving into the likes of the Chamber of Commerce looking for cheap labor and special interest groups like LaRaza, etc who preferentially want Latinos to be able to skip to the head of the line. When Obama says they will go to the back of the line, he’s crazy. They will continue to come here, receive government assistance, free education and health care, etc. while waiting in line for the gravey train. Wow…what a penalty!

I’d be interested to know what the impact of any of the provisions in any proposed might be.

The Senate, for some ungodly reason, keeps reviving the Amnesty corpse, calling it a different name, and attempting to stuff it down America’s throat.

Talk about not clear on the concept.

Maybe they look at this with the mindset of: what part of yes didn’t you understand?

Clearly, there are a raft of reforms that need be made:

- providing funding for local police to be trained to enforce federal immigration laws as provided by section 245(g), I believe, of the Immigration Reform Act.  While this provision has languished on the books, localities on up to State level police organizations are for one reason or another not taking advantage of it, despite the cry and fury of the populace to do something.  That has to change;

- build the fence

Actually, I have an idea of how to build the fence and keep the costs down.  Although the intial Entry Without Inspection (illegal immigration) is treated as an administrative infraction, perhaps as a misdemeanor, and the second offense a felony, there are numerous laws illegal immigrants break every day they are here past the normal 90-day sojourn permitted tourists, be it ID Fraud (five years prison), identity theft, obtaining benefits under false pretenses, W-9 fraud, tax fraud, voting fraud and so on.  Make those offenses punishable by hard labor—say—six months…. building the wall, followed by deportation to the Southern tip of Mexico;

- to include those illegals who use Mexico as an entry way to the US, make deportation not to home of record, by to country of departure (here’s your illegals right back atcha - Meh-hi-co);

- go after employers BIG TIME, for W-9 fraud, failure to pay payroll taxes, failure to comply with OSHA, pay FICA and so on—basically disincentize them hiring illegals rather than Americans.  Make repeated violations punishable by imprisonment, not just low fines that can be paid as a cost of doing business;

- compulsory reporting - government routinely compels reporting requirements, such as child abuse by health care providers and teachers—any governmental functionary that illegal touch base with, be they asking for taxpayer-funded transfer payments, social security, medicare, medicaid, entry to schools, universities and particularly involvement with crime, would trip reporting to the relevant Immigration and Customs Enforcement authorities.

- cut off all the incentives, both to illegals and the employers who hire them, and the law of the free market will work to reverse illegal immigration—no need for mass round-ups;

- compel ICE to action.  Any mass demonstrations would be probable cause for an investigative stop.  Have prisoner buses and immigration detention areas on notice.

- provide for seizure of illegal aliens funds and property, gained while in the USA, to defray the costs of immigration enforcement;

- No more anchor babies.  No longer follow the doctrine of ius solis, but ius sanguius, followed by most other countries.

There is lots that can be done, but I don’t see Washington going in this direction.  I do see them pushing for a merging of the USA with Mexico, without advice and consent of the people and congress of the United States. 

My guess is this latest bill prolly won’t include many of Zigs-Suggestions, hey?

...for great justice

Whether they are defending the Soviet Union or bleating for Saddam Hussein, liberals are always against America. They are either traitors or idiots, and on the matter of America’s self-preservation, the difference is irrelevant.” —Ann Coulter, P. 16

http://i44.tinypic.com/t89p3s.jpg[/IMG]”]

AMERICANS FOR TRUTH

NO PRIDE. LV

MASS RESISTANCE

THE PINK SWASTIKA

Probably not…  but are you available to run for the senate?

“Here lies, in honored glory, an American soldier, known but to God.”

Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other vews.

William F. Buckley Jr.

Nobody has asked me.

I’ve got one helluva platform though. 

The MSM will be hating on me big time.

...for great justice

Whether they are defending the Soviet Union or bleating for Saddam Hussein, liberals are always against America. They are either traitors or idiots, and on the matter of America’s self-preservation, the difference is irrelevant.” —Ann Coulter, P. 16

http://i44.tinypic.com/t89p3s.jpg[/IMG]”]

AMERICANS FOR TRUTH

NO PRIDE. LV

MASS RESISTANCE

THE PINK SWASTIKA