Say Anything Blog

Benjamin Franklin called for daily prayers at the Constitutional Convention on June 28, 1787, reminding the delegates that their daily prayers “for Divine protection” during the Revolutionary War were heard and answered. “And have we now forgotten that powerful Friend? or do we imagine we no longer need His assistance? I have lived, Sir, a long time, and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth--that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid?”

I don’t think Huckabee is claiming he is God’s choice but rather his rise in the race for the primary elections is not by accident.  There is a difference between acknowledging God governs in the affairs of men and a man who seeks to govern by divine decree. 

That said, New Evangelicals like Huckabee make me a little uncomfortable with these biblical comparisons given some of their theology.  I wonder how well they know and understand this difference.

This would make more sense if he makes it to the general election and Hill’s his opponent.  I think we can count on some Divine intervention at that point.  Meanwhile, Huck should credit the lack of competition for his apparent surge.

Actually, no, we didn’t fight a war about the divine right of kings.  That conflict was fought in 1206 when the barons forced King John to sign the Magna Carta, and the War of Independence was fought when King George decided he could get around the Magna Carta’s provisions on taxation,among other factors.  Since the Crown had failed to protect the colonies since the end of the 7 Years’ War, divine right was off the table; the King had more or less abdicated active government until he needed money.

But that aside, Huckabee is only suggesting that God is working in the hearts of voters to support his candidacy.  He’s not exactly arguing divine right to begin with, which would override any vote, don’t you think?

Huck should credit the lack of competition for his apparent surge.

Huck deserves the credit IMO.  He is a likeable guy who connects well with his audience.  At some point his politics will become a greater factor—I hope.

Huck deserves the credit IMO.  He is a likeable guy who connects well with his audience.  At some point his politics will become a greater factor—I hope

Don’t put any serious money on that, HG.  American voters have always favored the most charismatic candidate over the most qualified.  e.g. JFK, Eisenhower (hero worship)

I’m sure that Huckabee is amazed (as well as I am) for his sharp rise from an relative unknown to his current favored candidate position and he is unsure on what basis this happened.  The natural inclination toward unexplained phenomena is to attribute it to the divine.

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You don’t have to be a moron to be a liberal Democrat but it sure helps.

Rob,

Let me translate: I don’t know what is causing my rise in the poles, so I assume it must be God’s will.

It’s not that Huckabee thinks that he and only he is God’s candidate, but that he gives credit to God for everything that happens in his life.  And when he loses the primary (please God, let Fred win the primary), Huckabee will probably attribute that to God as well.  You may laugh at it, but it’s not some dark, sinister plot to turn us into a theocracy.

You understand that I grasp the whole context of Huckabee’s comment.

It’s a language I’m not only comfortable with but embrace. 

I’m glad he uses language like this.  It’s comforting and reassuring.

So, Lets see:
Huckabee Clinton
Middle and right vote Huckabee and he becomes president.
Gulliani Clinton
Middle Splits, Right votes mostly Gulliani.  Christian Vote apathetic.  Clinton Wins.
Thompson Clinton
Some middle and right votes
Clinton wins
Romney Clinton
Most of the middle and right votes, most of the Christian right votes.  Toss Up.

Edwards against any of those.
Huckabee Wins
Romney Wins
against Thompson Edwards wins
Against Gulliani Edwards wins

Obama against any
Huckabee IT’s a toss up. Splitting the middle and the Christian vote
Thompson, Dead meat.
Romney gives Obama a run for his money but Obama wins on the charisma Romney lacks
Gulliani wins but only because the
right and christian right comes out.

So, if it looks like clinton is the candidate, Huckabee is your man.

If it’s Edwards (which I doubt) only Huckabee wins.  The center tips Huckabee

If it’s Obama, we need Gulliani to sell the Islamic Threat.

The problem is, the Islamic threat vote is drifting. 

So, despite the fact that he believes in God, and that’s hard to take, he is the candidate that can win.

Unless it’s Obama.

I’ll bet that’s clear as mud.

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Old Tigers are more dangerous when they believe this is their last hunt.

From , “The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen”
Old tigers, sensing the end,
they’re at their most fierce. 
And they go down fighting.

You might want to watch the conversation with Huckabee on Glen Beck right now, 7 PM Thurs nite.

He will be on at 8 and 11 central time too.

Now, if you watch it and think he is unelectable after that program.

I know that if you are NOT a person of faith this seems hard to accept.  But I’m glad he is there.

He’s my guy.  That doesn’t mean I’ll vote for Hillary if she is nominated and Hillary isn’t.  I’ll vote conservative.  But, I’d rather vote for Mike.

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Old Tigers are more dangerous when they believe this is their last hunt.

From , “The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen”
Old tigers, sensing the end,
they’re at their most fierce. 
And they go down fighting.

From strictly a christian perspective, the language is innacurate.  What Jesus did with two fishes and five loaves was a miracle.  A miracle is “an event or effect contrary to the established constitution and course of things, or a deviation from the known laws of nature; a supernatural event.” (Webster)

Huckabees rise in the polls is no miracle and the comparison unintentionally contrasts the Creator’s miracles with His sovereignty.

Don’t put any serious money on that, HG.

That sounds like good advice, I’ll just keep hoping and praying the efforts of those of us who see the contrast between Huckabee’s politics and conservatism pays off.

Huckabee is speaking a language that I understand, but am not comfortable with.  I am not comfortable because part of this is due to Dobson’s comments to his larger audience that if Huckabee is not the nominee, he supports a third party run.

The Evangelicals spend a lot of time in their sermons and churches talking about supporting Israel because of Revelation and about a variety of issues that seriously call into question the relative importance that their religion plays in their politics.  Huckabee’s only real surge is indeed atributable to his religious stature with Evangelicals who are listening to their preachers and religious leaders that this man should be God’s candidate.  Huck is simply speaking the language that the Evangelical King Makers demand he speak in return for God’s endorsement by James Dobson and others.

I view Huckabee no differently than I do the other reverends that usually turn up in primary elections--Pat Robertson in 1988, Jackson and Sharpton multiple times.  They claim devine will and intervention into the political arena (though Jackson and Sharpton may be slightly more palatable because they tend to invoke God less often than Robertson and Huckabee do).

When one’s greatest qualification is his theology degree and his only conservative positions are social conservative positions, not fiscal conservatism, we need another candidate.  God’s candidate isn’t my candidate in large part because of his stances on taxes and on immigration.  Regardless of how much bread and fish God allows his campaign to make.

But that aside, Huckabee is only suggesting that God is working in the hearts of voters to support his candidacy.  He’s not exactly arguing divine right to begin with, which would override any vote, don’t you think?

That is exactly right! He is saying his increases in the polls appears to be out of proportion to the money he has to spend and his ability to get his message out. So, like any good Christian he would acknowledge that perhaps God has worked in the hearts of voters, while not claiming a divine right to the office or any assurance that he will get the nomination or be elected.

I do not support Huckabee for many reasons, but I don’t discount that idea that God according to the counsel of His own will might have helped Huckabee rise in the polls!

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No matter the age or state of health, for a military man it is always glorious to tilt at windmills, rescue a fair Dulcinea and be a gallant knight in armor in a glorious cause.

Huckabee, perhaps speaking “Christianese”, is not suggesting that God has given him a mandate. He said that many were praying for him. Prayer is a powerful thing.

Likening it to Christ’s multiplication of fish and bread doesn’t implicitly mean his rise is a miracle, but instead is the working of the Spirit. That is a possibility.

If the bible-thumping “values voters” cram someone like Huckabee down the throats of the “fiscal conservatives” wing of the GOP none of us are going to win.

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When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

OMG, did Huckabee actually insinuate that his success in the polls is some sort of miracle from God equivalent to Jesus turning water into wine?

So I guess he wants us to believe God actually wants HIM to win?

Wow, CREEPY is right.

Don’t worry Rob, we won’t.  I think Huckabee’s rise can be tied directly to the media and their sudden discovery of his more liberal policies.

If the bible-thumping “values voters” cram someone like Huckabee down the throats of the “fiscal conservatives”

Bible thumping!?  What the hell (or heaven, probably doesn’t matter since you don’t believe in either) is that?  I’ve been a Christian all my life and have yet to thump a bible.  In all due respect, rob, that was a very demeaning statement but perhaps one to be expected from an atheist.

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You don’t have to be a moron to be a liberal Democrat but it sure helps.

did Huckabee actually insinuate that his success in the polls is some sort of miracle from God equivalent to Jesus turning water into wine?

Actually, I think he blamed it on his gardener !

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Excuse me, you were saying?

In all due respect, rob, that was a very demeaning statement but perhaps one to be expected from an atheist.

I’m sorry, it was too flippant.  I didn’t mean it as an insult, but I understand how it could have come off that way.

I just get a little frustrated when people seem more concerned with someone like Huckabee’s faith than his tax-hiking, soft-on-illegal-immigration, nanny-statist policies.

Same goes for Romney.  Do we want a good preacher as President or someone who is going to promote limited government?  Because neither Huckabee nor Romney are the latter.

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When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

I’ve been a Christian all my life and have yet to thump a bible.  In all due respect, rob, that was a very demeaning statement but perhaps one to be expected from an atheist.

Dude, seriously.  He could have used the term “Jesus Freaks”, which is much more common now and much more demeaning than Bible Thumpers.

This is an ideological split among conservatives.  It is Fiscal Conservatives who are Republicans because of Free Trade, low taxes, smaller government, and good economics vs. the Christian Right that are republicans becuase of abortion, social values, and the fact that Dems are more or less the party of Secular Humanists and have become devoid of any values whatsoever.  I oppose abortion.  But I also oppose the Federal Government ignoring its Constitutional Responsibilities like defending our borders.  I am concerned about socialist policies and taxes and the economy.

I just think about this idea of God answering prayers by politicians and professional athletes and lottery winners.  God causing tsumanis and 9-11.  And we come to a point that in order to follow the new Evangelical movement, one must accept that God wants people to win lotteries and that tithes come back tenfold if we give to Pat Robertson--like a Jesus based pyramid scheme.  We must accept that God divinely intervenes to insure that Terrell Owen’s ankle magically heals so he can play in the Super Bowl, but God doesn’t intervene to make him something other than a complete asshole to his teammates and peers.  Humility isn’t required by God, but rather, as long as one shouts praise Jesus, they can scream at the top of their lungs how great they are.  When Huck invokes Jesus regarding his surge in the polls, it reminds me of TO doing it before the Superbowl. 

God doesn’t give a shit whether you win the Super Bowl, he doesn’t care if you scored that touchdown, and he sure as hell doesn’t intervene to insure that a road 4 point underdog doesn’t score that garbage time touchdown and keep the home favorite from covering the spread.  God doesn’t intervene in professional sports any more than he caused 9-11 anymore than he was behind the tsunami to punish Muslims anymore than he gives a shit about some Social Conservative-Fiscal Liberal preacher from Arkansas surging in political polls.

The right answer is to say, “I just thank Christ for granting me the strength to persevere and the character to continue running a positive campaign.” You don’t liken your Earthly work to a miracle by Christ, nor do you even mention it in the same breath.  But these folks do believe that God turns $1000 in tithes into $10,000 like Robertson loves to say on the 700 Club, so this kind of bullshit talk shouldn’t surprise us.

Q.  Gov. Huckabee--since Jesus is helping you turn two fish and five loafs into food for thousands, what is your position on National Healthcare?  Can Jesus also give you the ability to heal the lepers and the sick?  Make the blind see?

You guys are such hypocrites. 

George Bush has claimed that he was selected by God.

This really is all about his spiritual side and not about his politics isn’t it?

I’m astounded at the nature of the comments I read above.

They represent a profound lack of understanding of the Christian faith in action.  And, they exhibit a fear of people of faith that is equal to the secular left’s fear. 

I don’t understand it.  It’s obvious from the comments this isn’t about his positions or policies.  Sure, there are some you don’t agree with but they are not nearly as scary to you according to the comments above as the fact that he believes as I do in a living God who sometimes does miracles.

IF and that at this point is a big if, Huckabee is the nominee from the right, do you simply not vote, or are you voting for Hillary?  Or, some Ron Paul 3rd party.

As a died in the wool social conservative and less than conservative otherwise I find Huckabee right up my political and spritual alley.

I don’t think I am alone. You will have to decide at some point.

Remember, Huckabee beats Clinton and Edwards and loses to Obama.

Gulliani beats Obama, but loses to
Clinton and Edwards is a toss up.

Thompson is toast.

Romney is without passion or inspiration. 

Who else is there.  McCain? 

Fellows, your fear of the Christian right and social conservatives is ill founded and you exhibit some pretty weak attack mode when you come off as you have.

Should I not have an equal and opposite concern if there is a person who is NOT a person of faith who becomes a national leader?  I certainly would. 

Given a choice I will always choose a person of faith over a person who relies soley on reason.

They have no compass in their lives and if the poop hits the fan they are without a rudder.

That’s the way we Christians see it.  We aren’t all in lockstep but we vote and it matters to us that a man like Huckabee and even Romney are grounded.

And, yes a better health care system would exist if people first believed that it was God’s will for them to be healed and walked in faith in that first rather than faith in the Doctors.  We will have faith in something.  I would rather have faith in God first and then the Doctors.

Oh, and yes, it is always God’s will that every person is healed. 
Not every one is but it’s not God’s will that they be sick. 

It’s also not God’s will that there be wars, poverty, pain, divorce, death or poverty.  There won’t be any of those things in heaven.  No pain, no tears, no poverty, no war etc.

So, when we pray, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven it’s not YET done.  But it’s God’s will that it be done. 

So, it IS supposed to be that people are healed. 

That would be a better plan than socialized medicine.

And there is that western civilization thing.  Without Christianity Western Civilization will collapse. We are well on the way.

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Old Tigers are more dangerous when they believe this is their last hunt.

From , “The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen”
Old tigers, sensing the end,
they’re at their most fierce. 
And they go down fighting.

And we come to a point that in order to follow the new Evangelical movement, one must accept that God wants people to win lotteries and that tithes come back tenfold if we give to Pat Robertson--like a Jesus based pyramid scheme. 
...Humility isn’t required by God, but rather, as long as one shouts praise Jesus, they can scream at the top of their lungs how great they are.

Where are you getting your information about the modern evangelical movement? TV evangelists? What you’re talking about is the Word of Faith and Prosperity Gospel movements, and they do not represent the majority of the modern evangelical movement.

Dear fish, thanks for the barrel.

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Excuse me, you were saying?

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The media hype for Huckabee is to ensure a weak Republican nominee for Hillary to run against.  Kinda like Bob Dole in ‘96.

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The only legitimate role of government with regard to economics is to prevent fraud and provide a remedy- civil and criminal penalties- in case of fraud.

People have the mistaken notion that the free market has no rules.  But it most certainly does.  All our problems are due to government meddling.

Waaa Waaa Waaaaaaaaaa

Always blaming someone/something else, huh Robbie?
Where is your great gop hope? Why isn’t anyone talking about Tancredo or Hunter? Those are two fine gops.

Whither thou goest, O once proud gop?

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Excuse me, you were saying?

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Whither thou goest, O once proud gop?

To the Presidency and control of Congress in ‘08.

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The only legitimate role of government with regard to economics is to prevent fraud and provide a remedy- civil and criminal penalties- in case of fraud.

People have the mistaken notion that the free market has no rules.  But it most certainly does.  All our problems are due to government meddling.

Where are you getting your information about the modern evangelical movement? TV evangelists? What you’re talking about is the Word of Faith and Prosperity Gospel movements, and they do not represent the majority of the modern evangelical movement.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/15/business/media/15book.html

Mr. Osteen, a television evangelist, has signed a book deal with Free Press, an imprint of Simon & Schuster, that publishing insiders say is potentially one of the richest for a nonfiction book and could bring the author more than $10 million.

Mr. Osteen’s contract follows the enormous success of “Your Best Life Now,” published in 2004 by Warner Faith, a division of the Time Warner Book Group. More than three million hardcover copies were sold, along with more than one million copies of associated journals, daily devotionals and study guides.

Not that Olsteen is the worst offender out there, because TD Jakes probably is, but the watered down version of the Gospel sold by Joel Osteen, Jakes, and the others that run megachurches is exactly what I am talking about.

This is Olsteen speaking about his book:

http://www.beliefnet.com/story/157/story_15735_1.html

Q. Your book mentions a man who financially wronged you and your wife Victoria. You say later he lost everything—he lost his money, his family—while God “prospered [you] through several real estate deals.”

A. Exactly. That’s very clear in my mind. We could have sued him, we could have gotten very ugly. But we said we’re going to let God fight this battle. He was another Christian man; he just wasn’t living by Christian principles. I believe we kept a good attitude in the tough times when we weren’t getting our way.

I believe those are times of testing and I can tell you, God did prosper us more than we could ask or think. On some of these real estate deals, it’s just again, God’s favor and God’s blessing. I believe you’re sowing seeds for that when you’re doing the right thing when the wrong thing’s happening.

If you choose to believe that Olsteen isn’t mainstream, so be it. 

This is the largest church in my area by far.  Another megachurch.  And this Gospel sells.  People want to hear prosperity.

Rick Warren talks about it in a speech he gave:

There are 6,000 churches that run over 1,000, there are about 750 churches that run over 2,000 – so those are the real mega-churches, the 750 over 2,000. There are about 20 churches in America that run over 10,000 in attendance on a typical weekend. And there are three of us that run over 20,000. The three largest churches in America are Willow Creek Community Church in South Barrington, outside of Chicago; the Lakewood Church in Houston, which is on television, so you might have seen that one (the pastor is Joel Osteen); and then Saddleback is the largest church in America. We had our 25th anniversary on Easter this year. I did 12 services. We had 45,000 in attendance and I preached 12 services in a row. Two weeks later, we celebrated our anniversary and we had never had the church in one location, so we rented Angel Stadium and had 30,000 at Angel Stadium. I have 82,000 names on the church roll.

Warren less so, but PROSPERITY SELLS.  And yeah, I do pay a little more attention to the folks that have megachurches than to Pastor Bob at the local community Bible church with 80 members.

And what Huck is selling is just that.  It is just exactly what Olsteen is talking about.  Jesus involves himself by blessing Joel Osteen with good real estate deals and prospers Mike Huckabee with a surge in the polls because he is the “most Christian candidate” out there.

And when TO says it before the Superbowl, most of my Christian friends want to puke because it shows again how Prosperity Gospel has worked its way into almost every aspect of modern Christianity in the US.  Maybe some churches teach it more than others, but Olsteen has sold almost 5M books and Warren another 25M.  Olsteen runs the second largest church in America.  Radiant Church in Surprise (with their in chapel coffee shop and watered down Prosperity Gospel) has well over 5K members.

Why isn’t anyone talking about Tancredo or Hunter? Those are two fine gops.

Same reason nobody takes the campaigns of Joe Biden, Chris Dodd, Bill Richardson, or Ohio’s Congressman “Moonbeam” seriously.

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“Poverty of goods is easily cured; poverty of the mind is irreparable.”

So ya got a serial adulterer gun banning abortionist, a socialist magic pants wearing feather weight, an ex fatty who believe the world is 6,000 years old and an old man.

Nice pickens, batman.

Can a Newtie announcement be off?

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Excuse me, you were saying?

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rbb: And your Party has the usual assortment of commies.  The choice is clear: I would pick a real American over a commie any time.

If Stalin were still alive(instead of being reincarnated as Hillary), I would expect the Dems to nominate him.

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The only legitimate role of government with regard to economics is to prevent fraud and provide a remedy- civil and criminal penalties- in case of fraud.

People have the mistaken notion that the free market has no rules.  But it most certainly does.  All our problems are due to government meddling.

Commies? Really?

Is there a lifeguard out there in the deep end Robbie?

Oh you nutters....so funny!

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Excuse me, you were saying?

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Yes, rbb, commies.  When you have Edwards “mandating” we all pay for govt healthcare, and Hillary saying “I want to take those profits, and use them for the common good.”, you have your potential nominees spouting Marxist ideology.  Obama also supports govt takeover of the healthcare industry.  This is communism, not Americanism.  Of course I know “it’s all for our own good”, and that “the dictatorship of the proletariat” is the penultimate stage of communism.  Wake up!

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The only legitimate role of government with regard to economics is to prevent fraud and provide a remedy- civil and criminal penalties- in case of fraud.

People have the mistaken notion that the free market has no rules.  But it most certainly does.  All our problems are due to government meddling.

So ya got a serial adulterer gun banning abortionist, a socialist magic pants wearing feather weight, an ex fatty who believe the world is 6,000 years old and an old man.

You forget about the lawyer who also plays a lawyer on TV and is a former US senator from Tennessee.

And about the Vietnam war hero that spent 7 years in the Hanoi Hilton being tortured and can barely lift his arm to shoulder height.

Your descriptions are amusing, Bobby, but hardly realistic or accurate in any case.

More to the point is the fact that all three of the GOP front-runners who you’ve disparaged, Giuliani, Romney, and Huckabee, have records of substantive success at actually running something.  Giuliani was a very successful mayor of New York City, Huckabee a successful governor, and Romney has a record of proven success in the private sector as a financier and organizer of the Salt Lake City Winter Olympics, and as Governor of Massachusetts.

The three leading Democrats, Clinton, Obama, and Edwards have absolutely no such record of accomplishment to point to.  Obama is a rookie, an adolescent who has yet to serve half of his first term as a US Senator.  Edwards is a shyster who served one unremarkable term in the Senate then moved on when it became apparent that the people of North Carolina would have no more of him.  Hillary is still trying to figure out how to wrap herself in the “glory” of her part-time husband’s presidency without getting covered with mud.  Aside from scamming the IRS with her cattle futures BS, she has no discernible record of accomplishment or successful management either.

Given the slim resumes over on that left side of the aisle, I don’t see that you’re accomplishing much by throwing stones at the grownups.

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“Poverty of goods is easily cured; poverty of the mind is irreparable.”

And about the Vietnam war hero that spent 7 years in the Hanoi Hilton being tortured and can barely lift his arm to shoulder height.

Justin,

You’ll probably need to explain that McCain bit in more detail.  Liberals don’t know squat about the military in general, never mind heroism.  To liberals, pain and suffering for one’s country means paying too little in taxes.

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“Poverty of goods is easily cured; poverty of the mind is irreparable.”