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Monday, January 29, 2007

How Unions Are Destroying The Auto Industry

Fortune Magazine lays out all the reasons why America’s automakers are failing, and points out that a big problem are the labor costs foisted upon them by the unions.

As analyzed by Harbour-Felax, labor costs the Detroit Three substantially more per vehicle than it does the Japanese.

Health care is the biggest chunk. GM (Charts), for instance spends $1,635 per vehicle on health care for active and retired workers in the U.S. Toyota (Charts) pays nothing for retired workers - it has very few - and only $215 for active ones.

Other labor costs add to the bill. Contract issues like work rules, line relief and holiday pay amount to $630 per vehicle - costs that the Japanese don’t have. And paying UAW members for not working when plants are shut costs another $350 per vehicle.

For those of you keeping score at home, that’s approximately $2,615 in costs per vehicle manufactured which GM has to pay (and thus pass on to its customers) that foreign automakers don’t.  But that’s just the beginning.  Labor work requirements, which state that workers can’t be laid off even when the auto company has no work for them, cost the auto industry even more:

If an assembly plant with 3,000 workers has no dealer orders, it has two options. One is to close the plant for a week and not build any cars. Then the company still has to give the idled workers 95 percent of their take-home pay plus all benefits for not working. So a one-week shutdown costs $7.7 million or $1,545 for each vehicle it didn’t make.

If the company decides to go ahead and run the plant for a week without any dealer orders, it will have distressed merchandise on its hands. Then it has to sell the vehicles to daily rental companies like Hertz or Avis at discounts of $3,000 to $5,000 per vehicle, which creates a flood of used cars in three to six months and damages resale value. Or it can put the vehicles into storage and pay dealers up to $1,250 apiece to take them off its hands.

Chrysler experienced the vicissitudes of over-production last year when it built cars without dealer orders and was forced to store them in open-air lots all around Detroit while it frantically sought buyers. It damaged relations with its dealers and was eventually forced to cut production anyway.

What’s more, not only is the union work force a terrible expense for the auto industry it’s just flat-out less productive than it’s non-union counterparts:

...nonunion U.S.-based auto assembly plants made 1.1 million more vehicles in 2005 than they did in 2001, while production at unionized plants fell by 1.1 million, he said.

Of course, one way to look at that statement is to say that the non-union automakers (Toyota, etc.) are just selling more cars than the union automakers.  And that’s probably true, but it still proves the point that a union labor force is bad for business.  Companies like Toyota are selling more cars because their cars are cheaper (thanks to lower labor costs) and better made (thanks to better workers).  Both of those facts are an indictment of the union workers.

And it also exposes a larger truth.  The more we foist costs like health insurance, high taxes and heavy regulation on American businesses the worse they’ll do in competing with their international counterparts.  Something that will drive jobs and economic growth overseas.

Comments

Avatar for spacemonkey

Unions: an idea whose time has gone.

spacemonkey on January 29, 2007 at 08:52 am

Space-- We agree.  They are corrupt and refuse to obey two Supreme Court judgements… Beck being one of them.


Communism is evil

Chief RZ on January 29, 2007 at 09:04 am
Avatar for jpe

The more we foist costs like health insurance, high taxes and heavy regulation on American businesses the worse they’ll do in competing with their international counterparts.

This is certainly true.  It’ll be very interesting to see how big business reacts a) politically, since health care is bound to be a Big Issue in the ‘08 contests; and b) w/re/to how their dispensation of health care (ie, setting up on-site, low cost clinics).

They are corrupt and refuse to obey two Supreme Court judgements

What’s this in reference to?

jpe on January 29, 2007 at 09:27 am
Avatar for Richard

The problem is that they will suck the last breath of life out of the American manufacturers and there is not a damn thing that can be done about it.

For christ sakes at what point does business say, I could give a rats ass what union is what, it costs to much to do business with you as my labor force, so either compete at the same level everybody else does or you are fired.

Richard on January 29, 2007 at 09:45 am

Did you all see WILLisms.com last week on Unions?  At least I think it was last week? Unions really are soon to be a thing of the past! No offense Puzzle…

Zsa Zsa on January 29, 2007 at 09:59 am
Avatar for Richard

Unfortunately Zsa they out lived their usefulness decades ago, it may just be too late to fix the damage they have caused to American businesses.

It is a shame because without unions we could very well still have children working in factories for slave wages with little or no safety measures. They real tragedy is that they forgot what they were there for a long time ago and morphed into this machine that we see today.

Richard on January 29, 2007 at 10:08 am

Is that why GM is having such a difficult time? OR is it the competition?

Zsa Zsa on January 29, 2007 at 10:22 am
Avatar for Puzzlefeet

It’s nice to see the unions and business working on the health care issue together.  They see that their competitors don’t have to deal with the health care issue as a part of the cost of doing business because there is national health care in Japan.  So bringing national health care to the US will reduce those costs. 

Also dealing with the exchange rate which puts the US at a disadvantage would also help the US automakers. 

But it is interesting to note you all ignored those little nagging facts about health care and the exchange rate.

Puzzlefeet on January 29, 2007 at 10:25 am

Puzzle, What is the exchange rate for health care?

Zsa Zsa on January 29, 2007 at 10:28 am
Avatar for Puzzlefeet

Zsa Zsa what do you mean the exchange rate?

Puzzlefeet on January 29, 2007 at 10:33 am

So bringing national health care to the US will reduce those costs.

Another leftie fantasy that has nothing at all to do with reality.  National healthcare increases costs, in every instance.


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robert108 on January 29, 2007 at 10:34 am
Avatar for Richard

And then the Unions freak out and strike because the coverage of national healthcare was not the equivilent of what they had. And nice job if addressing the fact that they get paid when producing zero product.

Richard on January 29, 2007 at 10:43 am

Puzzle… I guess I don’t understand what you are trying to say when you speak of the exchange rate and health care and Unions in the same breath? ... What does one have to do with the other in our country? Are we all supposed to bow down and become Union members and be excited about Socialized Health Care??? To heck with everything else! To heck with the greatest Technology in the world! We are all going to accept what the Government has in store for us and the Unions. Yeah rrrrrrright!

Zsa Zsa on January 29, 2007 at 10:53 am
Avatar for Puzzlefeet

No Zsa, that’s not what I’m saying. What I’m saying is that Japanese automakers don’t have to consider health care cost in the cost of doing business whereas the US automakers do.  And it is very interrelated.  Let’s say you have a business where you provide health care for your workers and there is another business in another country against whom you compete and the government there pays for the workers health care.  Don’t you think you are at a competitive disadvantage and that your product will cost more?  I sure do.  And then add to that the exchange rate and rate of imports.  Do we get to import as many of our vehicles into Japan that we allow Japan to import into the US. The exchange rate was cited in the article posted in the thread.

There is a trade deficit and we aren’t the winners in that.

Puzzlefeet on January 29, 2007 at 11:09 am
Avatar for Richard

OMG we can inmport all we want they are not selling at the same rate. They do have health care cost it is just put on the tax payer. How about this elimnate the unions and see if that works then we can move onto healthcare.

Richard on January 29, 2007 at 11:12 am
Avatar for Puzzlefeet

Zsa Zsa,here’s what the article said on the exchange rate: 

the exchange rate is another uncontrollable factor that plays into the hands of the import brands. When the yen got cheaper in 2005, Harbour-Felax figures it was worth $1,054 per vehicle to Japanese manufacturers

Puzzlefeet on January 29, 2007 at 11:18 am

Puzzle, I understand you are saying two things that you think are related.  To address your concern about the cost of health care imbedded into our products. That is WHY we need to establish a True Competitive health care system! One where tax sheltered company-provided benefits yield to consumers directly buying the coverage they need and prefer.  That reduces competition problems and gets the Govt’s Fat, Inept Hands Out of MY health care.  BTW, the President;s plan would be a great first step in that direction…

Zsa Zsa on January 29, 2007 at 11:30 am

There is a trade deficit and we aren’t the winners in that.

You reiterate the old leftie hash about a so-called “trade deficit”.  The reality is that we are rich enough to buy their stuff, and as long as the unions keep our auto industry uncompetitive, we will continue to buy their stuff.  Poor countries can’t afford to buy anybody’s stuff, and thus don’t have a “trade deficit”.
If you really want to reduce the “trade deficit”, get rid of the unions.


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robert108 on January 29, 2007 at 11:32 am

Puzzle...I apologize for being so grouchy sounding about this topic! I hope you can understand that the system that you are speaking of is NOT for everyone! What you and your Union people are wanting may be fine for you??? BUT I still like the idea of the freedom to choose for myself and anyone else who wants the FREEDOM to select what is best for us as individuals!

Zsa Zsa on January 29, 2007 at 11:43 am
Avatar for HG

Union labor is the problem.  Not so much health-care and retirement. Those costs are agreed to by the Manufacturer.  If the company can’t afford the labor costs and remain competitive, then it’s time for paycuts.  Union labor however is often rationed.  I would assume this is the case with auto workers?  They are only required to produce ‘x’ amount per day for the union negotiated pay.  This rationing restricts productivity. Also, parts which could be acquired for cheaper than the union labor can produce, are part of the union negotiations to secure union jobs.  Unions create many more problems than they purport to solve.

HG on January 29, 2007 at 12:27 pm
Avatar for HG

Regarding health care, insurance is a problem.  It drives costs up.  People will visit a doctor far more often if they have health insurance, often for nothing more than a common cold.  A recent insurance bill my colleague received showed that the insurance paid $0 of a $700 doctor bill.  The reason given was that my colleague’s deductible and co-payment covered the $400 actual cost negotiated by the insurance company with the health care provider.  Health insurance for the most part is a scam.  The only purpose it may serve is major medical services.

HG on January 29, 2007 at 12:43 pm
Avatar for Puzzlefeet

ZsaZsa, the problem with that is that Japan has nationalized health care where the government is responsible for the cost of the health care, not the employer/employee relationship.  In our country, it is not and this causes our costs to be greater for our products which we can’t even sell on an even keel in Japan. 

While you may not want it that way, it is the way it is right now and we are at the disadvantage.  Now people who hate unions would rather that we just get rid of the health care benefit altogether.  I suppose that is an alternative, but not even the business community likes that alternative which is why they are working with their unions on the issue. 

You can have what’s best for you as an individual but when another country has a nationalized program competing with your program what do you think happens, ZsaZsa?

Puzzlefeet on January 29, 2007 at 01:29 pm

Puzzle, What should happen is; The Unions need to stop making demands that are running companies into the ground and forcing companies to go out of bussiness. Unions cannot dictate to everyone. That is too mafiaishka. I am not into that…

Zsa Zsa on January 29, 2007 at 02:07 pm
Avatar for HG

Puzzle,

It would help if you’d look at the cost per employee.  Add the wages, tax liability, worker’s comp. insurance, retirement, and health insurance together.  The overall total is the fixed cost of any employee.  If your company can only afford to pay 95% of its current cost per employee and remain profitable, would you be willing to take a 5% cut in wages?  Or, would you rather it come out of your health insurance or retirement benefit?

HG on January 29, 2007 at 02:07 pm
Avatar for Puzzlefeet

I see Zsa Zsa, that you are just going to ignore what I wrote and continue with the Unions are bad meme. 

HG, it would also help if you would look at the health cost that the other countries we are competing don’t have to pay.

Puzzlefeet on January 29, 2007 at 02:44 pm

Puzzle...I think we can respectfully agree to disagree.

Zsa Zsa on January 29, 2007 at 02:53 pm
Avatar for jpe

National healthcare increases costs, in every instance.

Our per capita costs are higher than any other OECD country, the rest of which have nationalized health care.  That strongly suggests a causal link between efficiency and national health care.

jpe on January 29, 2007 at 03:03 pm

No it implies substandard health care in other countries that we would never stand for.


What’s going to happen to US industry when the global warming extremists like John McCain double the price of electricity?  I would think all these factories will close and set up in countries where they aren’t scared of technology.


The Whistler's signature
The Whistler on January 29, 2007 at 03:13 pm

Anytime we invite Government control into our personal lives we are going to be sorry! I thought everyone knew that? Look at Soc. Sec.  People actually believed the Government was going to be there for them in their old age. We have people who can’t get by because they didn’t plan on the Gov’t not protecting their hard earned money????

Zsa Zsa on January 29, 2007 at 03:15 pm

Why is the cost of health care the responsibility of either the company for which someone works, or the government?

Why is it not the responsibility of the individual to see to their own health care?


“Poverty of goods is easily cured; poverty of the mind is irreparable.”

Bat One on January 29, 2007 at 03:31 pm

Our per capita costs are higher than any other OECD country, the rest of which have nationalized health care.  That strongly suggests a causal link between efficiency and national health care.

jpe,

This might be true, but ONLY if the quality of of health care in each OECD country is the same.  There is no evidence, not even anecdotal evidence, to suggest that is the case.

Besides, if there were so much as a hint of the efficiency you refer to in a nationalized health care system, it would surely be the first instance of a government program increasing efficiency over that of the private sector.  No one in their right mind is going to believe that!


“Poverty of goods is easily cured; poverty of the mind is irreparable.”

Bat One on January 29, 2007 at 03:37 pm

jpe:  1-Beck:  Thirteen years ago the Supreme Court sought with the Beck decision to curb forced-dues politicking. However, union officials have obstructed all but a small minority of workers from asserting their Beck rights.

Late in his term, Bush 41 issued an Executive Order requiring that workers on federal projects be notified of their Beck rights, but one of Bill Clinton’s first official acts was to rescind that order.

2-Abood:  The Court ruled that compulsory dues for politics violates the First Amendment and that it is illegal to withhold forced dues from dissenters beyond the cost of collective bargaining.

3-Pattern Makers:  The Supreme Court affirmed private-sector workers’ unqualified right to resign their union membership immediately.

There are some others, but these have not been followed, so some of us concerned with American freedom of Association Rights are waiting, and waiting, and waiting for these people to comply with US laws.


Communism is evil

Chief RZ on January 29, 2007 at 03:42 pm

That strongly suggests a causal link between efficiency and national health care.

A few hundred years ago, most people believed that there was a causal link between black cats and bad luck.  That doesn’t mean that there was one.  “Strongly suggests” is not proof of causality.
I’m sure each and every mass murderer has eaten apple pie at some time in his life, but that doesn’t prove any causality between the two.  Causality requires more than suggestion or coincidence.


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robert108 on January 29, 2007 at 03:49 pm

Our per capita costs are higher than any other OECD country…

That’s generally an artifact of accounting in a socialist society vs accounting in a free society.  Socialism is rife with hidden costs.  In addition, cost is meaningless without taking value received into account, as others have mentioned.


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robert108 on January 29, 2007 at 03:52 pm

I suppose that (getting rid of the health care “beneift") is an alternative, but not even the business community likes that alternative which is why they are working with their unions on the issue.

Puzzle,

Pretty presumptuous generalization there!  Even for a pro-union liberal.

Exactly which part of the “business community” do you have in mind here?  Got anything authoritative to back this up, or are you just shooting from the left hip again?


“Poverty of goods is easily cured; poverty of the mind is irreparable.”

Bat One on January 29, 2007 at 03:55 pm
Avatar for Puzzlefeet

Nah, B1, not shooting from the hip just looking at the fact. Like the Business Roundtable and the AFL-CIO working on the health care issue together.  Like the Business Roundtable, the AARP and SEIU working on the health care issue together.  Like reviewing the goals of the roundtable for the new congress which include expanding SCHIP coverage for children in this country. 

So unless you have something contrary, quitcheryappin’ B1.

Puzzlefeet on January 29, 2007 at 04:00 pm

So unless you have something contrary, quitcheryappin’ B1.

Puzzle,

Like the typical, intellectually-challenged liberal, you’ve got it exactly backwards… again.

Since you were the one to make the ridiculous claim about the “business community,” it’s up to you to back it up when called.  Which, of course, you haven’t done at all.

I will grant that the Business Roundtable favors itself as an organization representing business corporations.  But the idea that they are, or represent, the “business community” is the sort of gratuitious nonsense one would expect from a lower-lever DNC talking points memo.

AARP, of course, does not even pretend to represent the “business community” but is instead an insurance marketing company.

What I don’t see on your abbreviated list are the US Chamber of Commerce, the National Association of Manufacturers, the National Federation of Small Business, SCORE, the Conference Board, the National Business Association, or any of the 30,000 plus business and trade associations across the country.

I’m sure the Business Roundtable wil do their level best to keep congressional Democrats and their union puppet masters from raping the business community too awfully much more.  But for you to suggest that the business community wouldn’t gladly rid themselves of the obligation of paying for that health care “benefit” is pure drivel on your part.  And if you were honest about it, you’d admit as much.


“Poverty of goods is easily cured; poverty of the mind is irreparable.”

Bat One on January 29, 2007 at 04:30 pm

Bat: All this “discussion” of unions reminds me of some basic economics.  The entire justification for unions rests on the false concept of Karl Marx that labor and management are in an adversary relationship over a “fixed pie”, and whichever one gets something, it must take it away from the other.  Thus the whining over CEO compensation, as if it represented some sort of “theft” from the workers that has to be rectified by Big Labor or Big Govt taking something away from Big Business.
The reality of our free enterprise system is that prosperity is created when labor and management(or capital) cooperate with each other to create more than was there in the first place, thus dispelling the myth of the “fixed pie”.  Unions violate this principle, and thus produce the opposite of prosperity, which is why the auto industry(being fairly unionized) is no longer generating prosperity.  It’s fairly simple when you look at the basic principles involved.
BTW, the increase in CEO compensation is due to the fact that capital is more productive than labor, and always will be, when it is free to seek its maximum return.  When unions demand artificially high compensation, they ultimately produce a reduced demand for labor, mostly through mechanization, but also through outsourcing and the enriching of foreign competitors.  The examples are all around us.


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robert108 on January 29, 2007 at 04:51 pm
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Bat One, a funny anecdote for you about Puzzle (who, you should know, was the head of the North Dakota Public Worker’s union for some time).

She and I go round and round about unions all the time.  A while back, when I would assert that business doesn’t like working with unions, she would claim “nonsense” and tell me to talk with the folks at IR Bobcat here in North Dakota, who she claimed had a wonderful relationship with the union.

Well, about a month after she said that the United Steelworkers at IR Bobcat went on strike.  The striking workers tried to stop buses with replacement workers in them by throwing nails under the tires, which prompted IR Bobcat to get a restraining order.  Ultimately the union won out and got their demands from IR Bobcat, but now just a few weeks ago the company had to lay off a bunch of people at another plant.

I did a post about the whole thing here.

Not surprisingly, Puzzle has mentioned IR Bobcat’s “wonderful” relations with the Steelworkers since.  Nor did she comment on any of my posts concerning the Bobcat strike.

Telling, no?


When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

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Rob on January 29, 2007 at 04:52 pm

Rob,

When I first moved to the Atlanta area, nearly 30 years ago, there were two major airlines here, Delta and Eastern.  Eastern was heavily unionized, while Delta was non-union.  And as anyone who flew on both can attest, the difference in the level of service, from ticket agents, to baggage handlers, from flight attendants to telephone operators, was as the difference between night and day.  While Eastern was sinking under the combined weight of its vile and venal union bosses, especially William Wimpsinger of the machinists union, and the sheer ineptitude of chairman and CEO Frank Borman, the employees of Delta bought their airline, Atlanta’s airline, a new plane.

Delta is now unionized, and not surprisingly, in the midst of a Chapter 11 reorganization.  I have no doubt that the healthcare and pension “benefits” forced on the Big 3 automakers will probably wind up being the responsibility of the US taxpayers… to the relief of the collectivist illiterates on the left like Puzzle.

Of course, as a small business guy, I have the same opinion of unions that I have of taxes, hurricanes, and leprosy.

Still, you gotta fell a certain modest compassion for someone whose goals and ambitions are always at the expense of someone else.  For those on the Left, life IS a zero-sum game.  What a waste!


“Poverty of goods is easily cured; poverty of the mind is irreparable.”

Bat One on January 29, 2007 at 05:28 pm

Unions are for losers, those that can’t make it on the own initiate and skills.  I had one experience with a union back in the early 50s and that was more than enough.


You don’t have to be a moron to be a liberal Democrat but it sure helps.

docdave on January 29, 2007 at 05:36 pm

...who, you should know, was the head of the North Dakota Public Worker’s union for some time.

I wonder whatever happened to the adage that with age and experience comes wisdom.


“Poverty of goods is easily cured; poverty of the mind is irreparable.”

Bat One on January 29, 2007 at 05:45 pm

One of the collaries to the adage that being liberal is never to admit you’re wrong should be that a liberals beliefs can never be alter by facts.


You don’t have to be a moron to be a liberal Democrat but it sure helps.

docdave on January 29, 2007 at 05:49 pm

Don’t forget that Big Business, Big Labor and Big Government can get along just fine, until they have some competition that is.


What’s going to happen to US industry when the global warming extremists like John McCain double the price of electricity?  I would think all these factories will close and set up in countries where they aren’t scared of technology.


The Whistler's signature
The Whistler on January 29, 2007 at 06:57 pm

Gents,

Having worked in corporate law for five years and starting off in union mediation, I’ve seen this issue from both sides.  Unfortunately, AFAIK, both sides are guilty of overreaching and being just downright unreasonable.  It’s the workers who are getting whipsawed in the middle and just have to suck on it.

I found that the corporate leadership were a lot closer to Scott Adam’s world of Dilbert than is comfortable.  They were beholden to the new Harvard MBA business model, composed of PointPoint Presentations, Spread sheets and ‘crunching numbers.’ There was no loyalty to the nation, no loyalty to the individual employee.  Gordon Gekko was more the rule than the exception. 

Two consecutive quarters of bad numbers would result in massive layoffs, cost cutting, outsourcing, reduction of benefits, and off-shoring—all of which came at the cost of the employee.  No job couldn’t be outsourced, no area (except for the very top ranks) were immune.  Indeed, a piss-poor 10K, matched with layoffs of thousands of American workers is often rewarded by massive bonuses to CEOs.

Fire American engineers and hire two or three Third World imports riding in under the H1-B visa program.  The same mindset has driven the illegal immigration debate, forcing low and entry-level wage American workers off the market and onto the public dole.  Doctors, nurses and other skilled professions are (ab)using the H1-B program in the same manner.

The Unions, for their part, extract a sizeable chunk of the employee’s wage and devote it to almost exclusively Far-Left candidates, whether the employee is Far Left or not.  They protect marginal and bad workers, drive wages up beyond what is reasonable and stifle good business practices.

The US employment situation, I think, defies explanation by sound bite.  There are many factors, but all seem to be to the benefit of corporate ownership, or union leadership, and to the detriment of the American worker. 

The Unions are essentially communist front groups, but sad to say, sometimes collective bargaining is a necessary evil.  The remedy will require careful surgery, and not civil war-era style hacking.


...for great justice

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Move_Zig on January 29, 2007 at 07:34 pm

Move Zig, Are Unions for Baseball and sports different than other unions?

Zsa Zsa on January 29, 2007 at 07:41 pm
Avatar for HG

HG, it would also help if you would look at the health cost that the other countries we are competing don’t have to pay.

So what? Pass a tarrif which levels the profit margins of US auto makers with the foreign?  Then with the tarrif revenues we can subsidize American automakers employee costs?  Sorry Puzzle, the unions are a large part of the problem.  Competition from foreign auto makers is all that is keeping auto prices down where the rest of us can afford them.  Eliminating price competition is no solution to this socialist nightmare the democrats with the full support of unions have created.

HG on January 29, 2007 at 07:56 pm

Zsa Zsa

First-off, I must admit that I have not had direct experience with major league clubs.  That being said, I found that often, in the rarified atmosphere of high-dollar industries, the very well-placed could have the laws written to order. 

It’s nothing new.  There is an old latin maxim that compares the law to a spider’s web—it only catches small bugs.

What other industry can make so much money from the public, yet can demaand that Stadia be built at the cost of the host city taxpayers?

To answer your question, I will say yes, but that will just be a SWAG (Scientific, Wild-Ass Guess).


...for great justice

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Move_Zig on January 29, 2007 at 07:57 pm
Avatar for HG

that would be ‘tariff’.

HG on January 29, 2007 at 07:57 pm

Move Zig… Is that saying that money can buy a criminal a way out of jail??? Kind of like an OJ thing?

Zsa Zsa on January 29, 2007 at 08:15 pm

Ahhh tariffs and international trade.  See: the General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade, since replaced by the Uruguay Round of international trade negotiations.  Add to it CAFTA, NAFTA (and us getting the SHAFTA… sorry, couldn’t resist). 

The USA is mired into so many multilateral agreements that there is very little room left for unilateral action.  Jimma Carter found this out when he tried to boycott the Soviets.  American farmers, who depended upon sales to the Soviets, went ballistic.  US Olympic hopefuls sat on their hands as the games went on without them.

The way the rules are set up right now, the US is really geared to lose. 

Any attempt at creating a level playing field in the form of countervailing tariffs because a commnad- economy government is unfairly subsidizing their industry (check out the Red Chinese ocean shipping fleet, which has resulted in the decimation of US-flagged vessels) or unfairly closing their markets to US goods, such as the Japanese closing of their markets to just about all American goods exept wood and beef, is met with an Attack of the Lobbyists.  The hue and cry over trade protectionism goes up.

It’s all BS of course. We need to strive for FAIR Trade, not ‘Free Trade’ which is draining US capital, jobs and manufacturing capability off at a steady and alarming rate.

The Multi-national corporations are okay with it, because they have no loyalty to any nation, much less any particular currency, so long as profits are good.

I might as well admit that I am a Teddy Roosevelt Populist, right now, in case any of you folks start just what shade of Red I may be.  Not for corporations for the corporations’s sake, definately against commies.

What is largely forgotten is that the corporation is a fairly recent invention—a separate entity from the owners and organizers with eternal existence.  It used to be that if Mr. Woolworth started a business that he was IT.  His profits, his taxes and his liability.  Corporations were granted a legal existence because it was supposed to be a benefit to society. 

A lot of folks aren’t being taught that in schools nowadays.


...for great justice

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Move_Zig on January 29, 2007 at 08:22 pm

Zsa Zsa wrote:

… Is that saying that money can buy a criminal a way out of jail??? Kind of like an OJ thing?

To vastly oversimplify it… yes.

It only stands to reason.  If you are Joe-shit the Ragman and can only afford a Public Defender, who often is a recent law school graduate, incredibly underpaid and incredibly overworked, don’t be surprised if your legal advice is to plea guilty to a lesser included.

If you can afford Barry Sheck, Roy Black or Gerry Spence, your dream team can smother the overworked prosecutor’s office in motion practice.  They can bring in Jury Selection specialists, which are arguably the most critical part of any criminal defense.

It helps of course, if you are in fact innocent.


...for great justice

egpzpj.jpg

Move_Zig on January 29, 2007 at 08:29 pm

Corporations were granted a legal existence because it was supposed to be a benefit to society.

A lot of folks aren’t being taught that in schools nowadays.

Not quite accurate.  Toward the end of the 19th Century, American business had discovered the method of forming Trusts, and were more powerful than the govt, at all levels.  The govt “busted” the Trusts, and to facilitate big business while keeping it under govt control, devised the corporation.
MZ: Don’t take this as a criticism on your overall material, though; just this one detail of economic history.


Media uncovers more Palin stories in one weekend than Obama stories in two years. Still no bias detected

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robert108 on January 29, 2007 at 08:33 pm

Robert108

I don’t see the conflict in the statements.  After all, TDR, the ‘Trust Buster’ what the one doing the busting.  Being a populist, he took on Big Rail, Big Steel and Big Oil.  The legal fiction of a corporation was intended to strike the balance of creating jobs, fostering commerce and being a net benefit to society.  Abuse of the corporate existence could be controlled by piercing the corporate veil in some instances and going directly after the officers and directors.


...for great justice

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Move_Zig on January 29, 2007 at 08:45 pm
Avatar for HG

We need to strive for FAIR Trade, not ‘Free Trade’ which is draining US capital, jobs and manufacturing capability off at a steady and alarming rate.

If I recall correctly, prior to our beloved income tax, tariffs were a healthy revenue source for government.  Now, we have the opposite, free trade and the American is the revenue source. 

It seems free trade is forcing American corporations to compete with foreign companies who in some cases have a much lower tax burden, less regulation, and lower wage base.  I had always hoped that this would force government to relieve American business and taxpayers in order to compete.  However, Americas productivity and ingenuity has for the most part kept us very competitive.  In the auto industry we simply have an inferior product, union indolence, and government confiscation and regulation that is just flat out too much to overcome.

HG on January 29, 2007 at 09:25 pm

MZ: As I said, a small detail.  I am not a populist, and am not any sort of collectivist, so I would prefer trusts to corporations(and to govt).  Not all the history you read about that time is accurate, btw.  To me, it was a pissing contest between the feds and big businesses, and the feds won.  I’m not so sure the rest of us won, though.  Too socialist for me; virtual ownership of the means of production, and all that.


Media uncovers more Palin stories in one weekend than Obama stories in two years. Still no bias detected

Obama: more experienced than Bristol Palin

robert108 on January 29, 2007 at 10:10 pm
Avatar for jon spencer

The non-union auto makers are also able to include a portion of what is not spent on union benefits into the auto.
This might be better equipment, service or just spending a little more time to do things right.

jon spencer on January 30, 2007 at 07:35 am
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