I have been talking about this in every thread about Afghanistan. Ok, I will do it. But you will ignore it anyway.

Yes, you have been “talking” about it… let’s see some real documentation that shows the failures of the Bush administration in Afghanistan and how they differ from the Obama adminstration’s failures in that same theatre.

Your “talk” is, by and large, worthless.

Thanks Monday Mornign Quarterback.

Certainly don’t want to get your hands dirty.

I am at a loss. Was there a meaningful argument in there somewhere???

So what is the conclusion??? Obama is uncomfortable with being a world power, therefore, he is…….what? Not using the nuclear option? Not speaking like a cowboy at the UN???

This is the most pathetic attempt at addressing the issues in Afghanistan/Pakistan as I have seen.

Wow. I mean……just, WOW.

Here is something that is interesting, and equally unrelated to the issues in Afghanistan:

Here’s the confusing part. Obama knows how to fight. During last year’s campaign, Obama would say: “We don’t throw the first punch, but we’ll throw the last.” Indeed, when Obama slugged it out with political opponents, he would take a blow and hit back twice as hard.

That kind of machismo might come in handy when dealing with the likes of Ahmadinejad. Obama still believes U.N. sanctions will pressure this tyrant into abandoning Iran’s nuclear weapons program. But, as Sarkozy points out, Iran has ignored five U.N. resolutions on that issue since 2005.

I don’t see this as being entirely ingenuous on their part, because it only seems that the criticism gets directed at a Republican president.

Carrick, there was much opposition to the Iraq quagmire and there was talk of it interfering with resolving afghanistan’s problems. However, I don’t remember any plan to actually finish Afghanistan. (Some talk during campaign speeches but nothing specific and really, that doesn’t count anyway.)

Obama excels at campaign “fights,” but sadly the reality is that he was elected more or less as a pacifist whose historic views even preclude lawful self-defense by his neighbors in the Windy City. Moreover, his post-election views basically require Israel to leave itself vulnerable to whatever attacks Hamas will dish out.

If he thinks Achmadinutjob and others haven’t noticed this, he’s dreaming.

Nixon pulled out of Vietnam and let it go communist and now that country is American capitalism’s favorite place to assemble the shit they sell at WalMart.

Of course, America would do business with the devil if it could make a buck from it.

He has time to think this through.

Would you say that if you had a close relative over there?

I think not.

And it’s way past time to stop blaming Bush!

More lies from the desperate lefties, clinging to the blame objects of the past.
In fact, the mistake of going to Afghanistan with an army is the sole responsibility of the “revenge” justification pushed by the lefties. The big lie was that finding and arresting OBL was the solution to terrorism, instead of striking at the heart of radical Islam in Iraq, while at the same time deposing a murdering dictator who intended to become the Hitler of the ME.
Rbb simply parrots the old leftie lies, while desperately trying to distract from his Dear Leader’s astonishing incompetence.

Would you say that if you had a close relative over there?

I think not.

I have been saying we should deploy more troops for 4 years. That doesn’t mean there isn’t a better time to do it during the year.

The cons are out of ideas and valid criticisms.

I mean, get real.

H: No matter how hard you try to distract from Obama’s present failure and neglect in Afghanistan by clinging to the past, the fact remains that he is killing our soldiers there with his lack of response to the military needs of the situation.
Being the CIC means “no more excuses”, or should, for a real man.

He can’t, as he is both incompetent and a terrorist sympathizer.

Virtually none of the highly partisan crap above on both sides is the truth.

The world is NOT a tidy place, dealing with the aftermath of 9/11 was, as should be expected by reasonable people – messy. Bush made mistakes not by going into Iraq, as virtually every Democrat was in favor of that fight based on almost universally accepted international intelligence data, but his mistake was not continuing “shock and awe” and carpet bombing every area of Iraq wherein there were military bases. He should have and could have gotten that war over quickly and decisively to the applause of the world, but he leaned to his damnable liberal instincts and played at war until Petraeous got his surge.

Had Bush been overwhelming, decisive and punishing in Iraq, he would have been able to move large amounts of troops quickly into Afghanistan, conducted “shock and awe” 2, carpet bombed that country and we would not be there today, except small amounts of peacekeepers.

I do not fault Obama for taking his time in increasing troops there or for his support fro the war so far in Afghanistan thus far, especially considering he appeasement minded tendencies. Yes, it is not how I would run the war, it is not how conservatives would prefer, but he has supported the war there. He needs to make a wise decision now about Afghanistan, although with his liberals advisers and his own military hating, force hating, appeasement minded philosophy, my bet is that he will increase troops modestly, keep the asinine no civilian casualties, restrictive engagement policies in place and not provide either the weapons and/or policies to get that damn job done now. Many tell us about how Afghanistan held off the Russians and etc., but if we air drop massive pesticides on all the Opium crops, carpet bomb the Taliban held areas and all opium transport highways; and we kick some ass big time with overwhelming force (shock and awe), we can settle this damn war by late next Spring, chase the remaining Taliban into Pakistan and then bomb the Taliban-Al Queda held areas in that country and say to hell with Pakistan authorities.

However, none of that will happen and so I say it would be better for our troops and NATO troops just to get the hell out now rather than keep playing war by insane liberal rules of engagement and a desire to play nice with our enemies through bullshit diplomacy.

Hannitized said…

It’s amazing how Cons will pretend Bush’s involvement and failure in Afghanistan doesn’t matter when looking at the situation in Afghanistan.

Please document the “failures” incurred by the Bush administration in Afghanistan and explain how they differ from the failures of the Obama administration in that theater.

PP says:

Please document the “failures” incurred by the Bush administration in Afghanistan and explain how they differ from the failures of the Obama administration in that theater.

You are kidding me right? I have been talking about this in every thread about Afghanistan.

Ok, I will do it. But you will ignore it anyway.

The failures are massive, but not so much militaristic. That is probably what you are thinking, because you don’t know what happened.

Amazing.

Bush failed to finish the job with the Taliban, and jumped into Iraq.

In doing so, he abandoned the humanitarian needs of the Afghanistan people, and they instead longed for the support of the Taliban, who at least took care of their basic needs, albeit with an iron fist.

Bush also was left with little military to adequately protect the surrounding areas, where the Taliban ran and established new bases.

However, as seven years of missed opportunity have rolled by, the Taliban has rooted itself across increasing swathes of Afghan territory. According to research undertaken by ICOS throughout 2008, the Taliban now has a permanent presence in 72% of the country. Moreover, it is now seen as the de facto governing power in a number of southern towns and villages. This figure is up from 54% in November 2007, as outlined in the ICOS report Stumbling into Chaos: Afghanistan on the Brink. The increase in their geographic spread illustrates that the Taliban’s political, military and economic strategies are now more successful than the West’s in Afghanistan. Confident in their expansion beyond the rural south, the Taliban are at the gates of the capital and infiltrating the city at will.

Of the four doors leading out of Kabul, three are now compromised by Taliban activity. The roads to the west, towards the Afghan National Ring Road through Wardak to Kandahar become unsafe for Afghan or international travel by the time travellers reach the entrance to Wardak province, which is about thirty minutes from the city limits. The road south to Logar is no longer safe for Afghan or international travel. The road east to Jalalabad is not safe for Afghan or international travel once travellers reach the Sarobi Junction which is about an hour outside of the city. Of the two roads leaving the city to the north only one – the road towards the Panjshir valley, Salang tunnel and Mazar – is considered safe for Afghan and international travel. The second road towards the north which leads to the Bagram Air Base is frequently used by foreign and military convoys and subject to insurgent attacks.

By blocking the doors to the city in this way, the Taliban insurgents are closing a noose around the city and establishing bases close to the city from which to launch attacks inside it. Using these bases, the Taliban and insurgent attacks in Kabul have increased dramatically – including kidnapping of Afghans and foreigners, various bomb attacks and assassinations. This dynamic has created a fertile environment for criminal activity, and the links between the Taliban and criminals are increasing and the lines between the various violent actors becoming blurred. All of these Taliban successes are forcing the Afghan government and the West to the negotiating table.

And this is before we talk about Bush’ ability to help Karzai..

The Taliban are now dictating terms in Afghanistan, both politically and militarily.

And it’s not just the Taliban. As noted in a document produced by Andrew Cordesman of the Center for Strategic and International Studies:

While detailed NATO/ISAF and US maps that show the growth of Taliban, Hekmatyar, and Haqqani areas of influence are classified, it is clear from unclassified briefings that these insurgent groups continue to expand their influence at the local level.

With the Taliban and other insurgent group’s on the ascent and their use of Pakistan as a base, Afghanistan promises to be a much longer and more difficult war than it first appeared. It’s already heading towards its eighth year and could continue for many more years to achieve the goal of preventing Afghanistan from being used again by al Qaeda as Terrorism Central.

Obama’s challenge is not only going to be winning on the ground in Afghanistan and Pakistan but winning over the minds of his fellow Americans, especially for a war that promises to absorb many more American lives and dollars.

Hannitized provided the following documentation…

The increase in their geographic spread illustrates that the Taliban’s political, military and economic strategies are now more successful than the West’s in Afghanistan. Confident in their expansion beyond the rural south, the Taliban are at the gates of the capital and infiltrating the city at will.

While detailed NATO/ISAF and US maps that show the growth of Taliban, Hekmatyar, and Haqqani areas of influence are classified, it is clear from unclassified briefings that these insurgent groups continue to expand their influence at the local level.

… interesting… but how does that differ from Obama’s failures in Afghanistan?

let’s see some real documentation that shows the failures of the Bush administration in Afghanistan and how they differ from the Obama adminstration’s failures in that same theatre.

This is about Obama losing the war, so your distraction attempt isn’t working.
What’s your position on the war in Afghanistan?

Bush failed to finish the job with the Taliban, and jumped into Iraq.

That is your wholly subjective opinion based on your partisanship, it is not objective facts. You lose by only voicing partisanship, not examining all the relevant facts fairly.

No One other then Randy-G has offered an answer as to how win the war.

I have said over and over again, even above, how we can win, and it is the only way to win: Overwhelming force, “shock and Awe” massive carpet bombing all over Afghanistan wherever the Taliban hide, eradicating all the opium crops and closing all opium trafficking roads; and ending the bullshit, politically correct restrictive rules of engagement protecting civilians that allow the Taliban to hide in plain sight and kill our troops. Do it now, do it fast, down and dirty and get it the hell over with in months. Then chase their sorry, murderous asses into Pakistan and kill them and Al Queda there and then get the hell out.

PP,

I know you want to make some kind of point, what that point is, I have no idea.

I have been saying for years that we have been ignoring Afghanistan, I know Obama wants to get the enemies who attacked us on 9/11, not fight a needless war in another country.

You are confusing going after Al Qaida, and all of a sudden creating an enemy of the Taliban.

The Talbian are attacking us because we threw them out of power, we failed to stabilize the region, we failed to finish the job and go after AQ.

The Taliban has won back the people and now they are fighting us. The Taliban did not attack us on 9/11….they are attacking us now because we invaded Afghanistan, and threw them from power.

You clearly don’t understand the situation, or what Obama’s goals are, or have been.

You don’t have a rational idea of what to do at this stage. You are flinging poo at the wall and hoping it sticks.

I have allowed you to demonstrate that for yourself.

You have a chance to earn some credibility here. Don’t blow it.

Maybe it’s too late….i think ya blew it.

Your distraction attempt isn’t working.

Snipers like ellinas are in the business of distraction, remaining fact free and argument free.

Make that:

Most of our successes in Iraq came from a large surge in troops and employment of counter insurgency tactics, but more importantly our ability to pay people off to stop attack us, and each other.

You left that out. Why? Why did you leave the most important piece of why the surge worked?

Who are we going to pay off in Afghanistan?

You are flat missing the critical issues and challenges we face in Afghanistan Carrick.

Hannitized goes off the rails again…

You clearly don’t understand the situation, or what Obama’s goals are, or have been.

That’s an odd thing to say, when Barack Obama could not have made it clearer himself…

This Is a war that we have to win.

So, how’s he doing at curbing the Taliban, stopping Al Queda and catching Bin Laden? Any better than Bush?
Whaddya thing, hanni?

Carrick! Thank you for your thoughtfull answer.

For those of you who are not willing to read:

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/tue-february-10-2009/thomas-ricks

Hey…..it’s sorta like people are ignoring the data they asked for!!

What do ya know???

So why are we losing ground despite gaining troops? Well, all the answers are extremely easy to pronounce, but virtually impossible to fix. Kinda like being diagnosed with AIDS. (We know exactly what’s wrong with you, but you’re still screwed.)

1. The poppy fields. A good chunk, if not most, of this money funds not only the Taliban, but all kinda Islamic baddies. Unfortunately, it’s also something like 35% of the product of Afghanistan. So leaving the poppies screws us as it funds the bad guys. But destroying it makes US the bad guy and pushes broke people into the arms of the jihadists.

2. Pakistan. Due to treaty, we cannot chase the Taliban very far into Pakistan. Now that we replaced Mushariff with a much less American friendly dictator, we have less leeway. The jihadists know this and take advantage. If we let them go, we simply give them an easy way out that they will repeat. If we persue, we risk angering an unstable nuclear power. Both options suck.

3. Afghanistan is much like the early US in terms of structure, but more spread out. Villages are far apart and tribal. Consensus is impossible, and political change could take decades. It is likely most of us will be dead before Asghanistan starts to look like anything we’ll be proud of. As impatient Americans, this works against us. We want progress now. NOW DAMNIT!

4. Our allies are not that much on our side. While the US winds up forces, our allies wind down. And this has been the case the entire war.

5. While the Afghanis are better than the Taliban, it’s still not a modern society. Much has been swept under the rug of the theological lite government of Afghanistan. While this is still better than it’s precursor, it hurts our efforts and works against our interests.

6. The jihadists understand us. They are using the strategy of Iraq. Kill a lot of people and we’ll get tired and go home. It’s not a coincidence this started when Bush stabilized Iraq. It was planned. Fortunately, with the Democrats in power, we won’t have a media and minority party looking to undermine the US’s cause.

In 2002, the troops in Afghanistan barely passed 5000, by 2005, that number was 19,000. Bush ignored Afghanistan SO MUCH that the troop size quadrupled in 3 years. What a jerk!

I like your argument. It’s like saying…..i know a football team consists of 12 player on the field and another 24 or more on the sidelines….but we had 6 men on the field and none on the sidelines…..that’s not a failure.

Kenny, your second posting was good, your first, was hogwash.

First, do you remember how we fought and defeated the Taliban? If so, tell me. Was it with our troops, or with the Northern Alliance???

What defeated the Taliban was a joint effort, mostly with the help of the Northern Alliance, and little to do with a massive deployment of US troops.

What needed to happen was a negotiations with both Pakistan and Afghanistan of a full on deployment to get the bad guys in both Afghanistan/Pakistan border and to fix the humanitarian needs after our removal of the Taliban.

BUSH FAILED.

He changed his focus on Iraq after he gave the American people the illusion of dealing with Al Qaida and the Taliban.

He flat out distracted us with Iraq, so he didn’t have to deal with the tough challenge of dealing with Pakistan and Afghanistan.

Like he did through out the rest of his life….he passed the buck for someone else to finish.

He passed the failed economy to Obama, and the failed war in Afghanistan…….he lucked out in Iraq, last minute…to his unwitting knowledge and credit.

He needs to find a commander who can get the job, most of our military are not up to insurgency warfare, it’s not what they were trained to do, what they joined the force for, or what they are really competent at.
Carrick on October 1, 2009 at 03:30 pm

You tell your General to win the war.
Your general can’t do the job (winning the war against a ragtag militia).
And the funny thing is that the Rusians are not supplying this ragtag militia with advanced weaponry like we did when the soviets were there.
You fire said General, and find one able and willing to win.It matters not how many times you talk to him.

ellinas on September 28, 2009 at 08:52 am

Greg in Alabama.
While Carrick and I are in agreement, you disagree.

So no matter what Obama does, there will always be critics.