How Many Shots? A Question About The “One Shooter, Two Handguns” Report – UPDATED

Buried underneath the horrific senselessness of this entire, hideous episode is one little thing that isn’t clicking.
We have the report that the shooter, who we now know was Army Major Nidal Malik Hasan, was armed with two handguns when he started his murderous rampage and managed to kill 12 and wound another 31 before he was engaged and neutralized by responding police. Initial reports said that he was killed but this morning I’m reading that he’s alive and on a ventilator. Too bad.
That aside, here’s what’s sticking in my craw: I’ve been a professional with a handgun for many years and have trained extensively with them. I am telling you right now that one shooter with two handguns would have to be an amazing shot and an extremely cool hand to reap that kind of damage on running, fleeing targets.
Let’s do some math. Let’s assume that the handguns were 9mm semi-automatics. Most carry magazines with a maximum capacity of anywhere from 10 to 13 rounds. Let’s say that he hit a moving target with every fourth round (it’s not as easy as you think, especially in an environment where the targets are running and screaming and the shooter’s adrenaline is pumping wildly. Anyone out there who has trained with handguns knows what I mean) He would have had to have been carrying at least ten fully loaded magazines to have accomplished what he did, and would have probably had to have fired about 140 rounds. If he wasn’t carrying that many magazines, he would have had to go through the laborious and time consuming process of feeding rounds one by one into the empties, then resume his shooting.
Taking into account the reload time and the fact that very few amateurs – and yes, I know, he was a soldier but he wasn’t in combat arms, he was a psychiatrist and most likely had never been tactically trained (going to the range to meet minimum qualification scores once a year does not a tactically trained professional make) – could keep their cool well enough while reloading to make it a smooth process, I’d have to draw one of three conclusions.
1. This guy was incredibly lucky (from his point of view) and was able to engage his targets in a “fish in a barrel” scenario. I doubt this. Young soldiers aren’t likey to stand around and wait to be shot.
2. This guy was much, much better trained than his background would lead us to believe.
3. There was no way one shooter and one shooter only was involved and the military and feds aren’t telling the whole story yet. I hate conspiracy theories, but take note that as on the time of this piece I haven’t seen one interview with any of the witnesses or victims and by now we would usually have everyone from mom and dad to Aunt Sally in Maine having microphones shoved in their faces.
I was suspicious of the one-shooter-two-handguns thing when the information about the number of casualties began to come out yesterday. No matter how I ran it through my head, it just didn’t make sense. I waited until this morning to express this point of view, hoping that there would be some answers but so far I don’t see any.
One shooter, two handguns? Maybe. I’m not saying it’s impossible. I am, however, saying it’s unlikely to the point of being improbable.
Hopefully, I’m wrong.
UPDATE:
New reports are now coming in from witnesss that say Hasan was cool and collected when he opened fire:

The Army psychiatrist suspected of being the lone gunman in a horrific massacre at Fort Hood in Texas took a “very calm and measured approach” to carrying out the mass shooting, the commanding general said Friday.
Survivors of the rampage that killed 13 and wounded 30 said the suspect, Major Nidal Malik Hasan, shouted “Allahu Akbar!” — “God is great!” in Arabic — before opening fire, base commander Lt. Gen. Robert Cone said.
[...]
Cone said witnesses spoke of the methodical way Hasan conducted the rampage. About 500 soldiers were lined up to get shots and eye-testing at a Soldier Readiness Center when gunfire erupted.

That goes back to the “fish in a barrel” theory, although I still firmly believe he would have had to have gotten some additional training somewhere to make this happen in this way.

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  • http://Array sayanything-3250

    Michael McCaul, a congressman for the Austin, TX area, commented on a local radio program this morning that he had been informed that Hasan had received some sort of advanced combat training. It’s was also put forward that the number of injuries being reported could be a combination of ricochets (as mentioned above) in a close quarters situation, but that there also was a possibility of friendly fire. But that’s just a guess at this point as people try to make sense of the quantity of injuries.

    Truth takes time with the MSM.. I take most of this with a grain of salt in the first couple days of reporting.

  • lock’m'up

    Nobody needs to point it out, it’s obvious.

  • lock’m'up

    Was Timothy McVay a Muslim? Wait, he was a conservative! Raider? Conservative!

  • sayanything-3250

    :) Indeed.

  • tj

    30 round mags are readily available on the internet. I’m not a great shooter, but shoot close to 600 rounds a week in practice and competition. The ability to engage, reload, clear any misfeeds or misfires, target, and shoot that many people in the kill zone shows training. I seriously doubt that this guy just bought these guns and came in the next day to kill. Possible, but highly unlikely.

  • sayanything-38

    Hotel,

    I thought about the 30 round mags, but they’re difficult to obtain. Not impossible, to that remains a possibility.

    I still think that unless he was belly close he would have missed a great deal and someone would have had the opportunity to take him down while he reloaded.

    I could be wrong, of course, and time will tell.

  • I don’t like today’s GOP

    Fish in a barrel and he used a Five seveN (5.7). A great gun and a useful round for military and police. 30 round clips are popular and easily purchased for this gun. He could have wounded or killed 2 or even three people with each shot. The rounds are small and don’t mushroom. Some are considered armor piercing.

    In the Lima Peru siege in 1997, when terrorists took over the Japanese embassy, two terrorists were killed with one 5.7 round each, and a third with two rounds. All of these subjects were wearing Level IIIA vests. The victims in Ft Hood didn’t have vests.

    Grand Forks SWAT had a shooting, the first with 5.7 in the US, in 2000 that resulted in a near-instant fatality.

    Yea, I’m a liberal gun nut.

  • sayanything-38

    We don’t need to “round up” anyone. The whole concept is revolting and displays an ignorance that is appalling. Take that crap somewhere else, jerk.

  • southernsue

    i say round every muslim up in this country and deport them. the sadness that fills me for these poor soldiers and their families is consuming.

    get rid of these horrible people in our administration and get rid of this political correctness nonsense. round up the muslims and get them out of our country!

  • sayanything-2

    Especially since real human being allow you Muslim terroeist f&cks to keep breathing the air that God gives us, huh, you f*ck?

  • Bob

    A Utah paper with a first-hand account from a female soldier, suggested that Hasan was seated with medical personnel behind a table. Soldiers were lined up directly in front of him.
    She said she played dead.

  • sayanything-2

    “He’ll get to die for his crimes but not soon enough.” No, he will not be executed, he will be held up by the political left as a poor victim of evil America, and as a hero by many millions of people.

    boba, we done told you to take your racist sh&t elsewhere.

  • Hanni

    Oh look, another shooting in Orlando. Obama better drop what he is doing and give a sad speech to make Americans feel good?

    This is our culture. It is done mostly by Americans, Christian, Muslims and others…it’s an American problem…no doubt about it.

    But, go ahead and politicize these thing, maggots.

  • studakota

    Of course ordinary soldiers are not allowed to carry guns with live rounds in them so they were “sitting ducks”. We couldn’t trust an ordinary soldier to carry a loaded gun now, could we , you Liberal bastards.

  • sayanything-2

    Is this the first time you have been back here since Rob did the change over to Disqus? That could be why you can’t log in, been a bit of change!

  • http://SayAnythingBlog.com The_Whistler_ofnd

    He wasn’t a conservative at all.

  • sayanything-2

    Read through 2 reports, he opened fire on a tightly packed crowd, as best I can tell. That alters the equation, apparently a lot of the hits were to the back, and it is possible that rds hit more than one person. Figure he was using FMJs, they have a high pass through rate at close range, and any hitting floor or walls would have scattered frags of metal and concrete, multiplying the number of hits.

  • sayanything-2

    I have known too many Officers to credit US Army firearms training with any level of proficiency, even among Combat Arms MOSs Officers. Typically troops just don’t get enough trigger time, and very little practice reloading, much less under pressure.

    Self training is not difficult, hell, I do a drill involving windsprints and firing. Run, then hit the firing line, empty rifle and drop it, fire 3 magazines through pistol, all firing for effect not spray&pray.

    All the same, firing on a range is NOTHING like being in the moment, adrenalin maxed out, hands shaking, vision tunneling. No matter how much you train, luck is the predominant factor. At least till you have been under fire a few times. That is a whole other kettle of fish, and many people never settle in, no matter how many times they are in it.

  • sayanything-38

    Fox is now reporting that witnesses are saying he was calm and collected when he started firing into the crowd. See the update on the post.

  • http://www.techmation.org/ Neeraj

    Terrorism is so much dangerous these days.

  • sayanything-2

    Pil, you are making a good point. I, to, am a trained shooter, and reloading under pressure would mean only using one pistol, can’t reload while holding a pistol in each hand. Most likely he emptied both, dropped one and reloaded the other. The reports I have read say that one pistol was semi-auto. That tells me he had a revolver and a Beretta, dropped the wheel gun and started working the Beretta. It is possible he had 30rd box, they are available, and depending on how crowded the room was when he opened fire most of the hits could have come in that opening barrage.

    I tend to think he was a solo, any backup would have targeted the responders. Or they chickened out and ran as soon as it started.

  • sayanything-2

    Yea, I do it at a local target range. Have a tactical course setup on a friend’s farm, having cops, military and Feds there made it easier. It is an old strip mine cut, high walled on 3 sides, so we can do a lot of different shoot scenarios. Had an old house we were using several years ago, it fell down, literally, under a heavy snow load.

    As for advice, lots of it online. The electronic age has certainly opened up the “self-help” flood gates!

  • http://SayAnythingBlog.com The_Whistler_ofnd

    And the reporting after the first couple days.

  • http://twentymilesofbadroad.blogspot.com/ azlibertarian
  • sayanything-38

    Not be snarky at a time like this but, I wonder how long it will take for someone on the left to blame Bush for this?

  • sayanything-342

    Pilgrim,

    My “guess” is that he chose targets that were on the ground, being those who “hit the deck” after the first shots were fired.

    Chief RZ, I hear ya.

  • sayanything-38

    Hotel,

    The run and fire drill you’re talking about is similar to our tactical training. Run, fire, reload, move to barricade, run to next target, fire, etc.

    Anyone can create a course like that, granted, but usually not without advice from someone – especially if the shooter isn’t familiar with that type of thing.

  • sayanything-2

    Wonder if he was doped? Then again, appearing calm and actually being calm are two different things.

  • http://twentymilesofbadroad.blogspot.com/ azlibertarian

    Is this the first time you have been back here since Rob did the change over to Disqus?…

    Yeah. Its been a while since I’ve been here, and certainly since I’ve left a comment, so maybe that’s it.

    I’m a simpleton when it comes to all the intertubes. When one format morphs into another, all my brain-settings just go “Tilt”*.

    * For those too young to know, and saying this reveals me to be someone “of a certain age”, “Tilt”=a failure mode of a manual pinball machine. If all you’ve ever played is xbox, Nintendo, or wii, then you may not know what I’m talking about.

  • sayanything-2

    Being a psychiatrist he would have access to all kinds of drugs, and the knowledge to use them. Have to wonder, did he share any of that knowledge with other like minded individuals, perhaps say at his mosque in Silver Spring? Or online, mayhaps.

  • sayanything-43

    I don’t disagree, but I should point out if he used the most common handgun available to him, the Beretta 92F (M9) the magazines would hold 15 rounds. (I have a couple 18 rounders even)

    It doesn’t change your calculations much.

  • AKA WOOF

    This terrorist attack is the fault of Texas

    This terrorist attck is the fault of Obama and his Negro Party period!

  • http://SayAnythingBlog.com The_Whistler_ofnd

    You can claim all of your old posts as well.

  • sayanything-38

    Agreed. I’ve been seeing some references to some sort of “advanced training” he’d been taking but it’s unclear just where that was coming from.

  • sayanything-2

    woofie, you and boba ought to get along quite well, both being racists and whatnot.

  • sayanything-81

    Beta blockers reduce anxiety, increase calm, reduce innervation of the amygdala (fight or flight area of the brain). That would potentially allow him to perform better-than-normally-expected. It would require premeditation. He could have taken some to make the deployment easier… one never knows. Beta blockers also reduce one’s traumatic memories, meaning he could, in theory, recall the details without having any strong emotional reaction to them.

  • pasanby

    I heard the simi-auto , was 10mm , the pass through is very likely with this round , the D-Max is available in the thirty round clip .

  • sayanything-98

    I had to read the entire article in our local State newspaper to find out the answer to my question that I had guessed earlier: He was a Muslim! Same fragging happened in Kuwait around 2003. The traitor is still awaiting death for his actions. When will we learn? These people are *mind bombs*.

    http://magyartruth.blogspot.com/2006/10/islamic-facist-fanatics-are-mind-bombs.html

  • sayanything-772

    Early reports from MSNBC and other sources did say there were three shooters. Early reports are often wrong. See, for example, links at http://hotair.com/archives/2009/11/05/breaking-massacre-at-fort-hood/

    As for the magazine capacity, I don’t believe anyone has reported the types of weapons used, but large-capacity glock magazines are fairly easy to get, and they go up to 30 rounds.

    In a crowded building like a medical processing station it would be like walking into a crowded movie theater with rows of chairs all filled with unarmed people. It would be easier than you’d think for the bad guy to shoot quite a few people quickly. No doubt that the typical pistol training recieved by Army officers, especially those not in combat arms, would not train someone for that type of shooting. I’m betting we’ll learn that he’d been preparing and practicing for quite some time.

    It’s a very sad day. He’ll get to die for his crimes but not soon enough.

  • headward

    I’m just waiting for somebody like KO or Matthews to say something like Bush started this or his home is in Texas so he’s responsible for this. You know if Bush was President right now it would be all over the news on how he can’t keep a Major from shooting up a Army base. I’m guessing the scapegoat is going to be Beck or somebody from Fox News.

    As far as the Major to take drugs to calm himself would show that he was planning. Also will somebody say that they guy was on gov’t healthcare and it obviously didn’t work for him. (-;

  • headward

    He’ll be sentenced to death unless he’ll be able to claim insanity. He will feel the wrath of the UCMJ. This will be a Military case and not civilian. This trailor needs to be shot infront of a firing squad

  • http://sayanythingblog.com robport

    Go to Disqus.com

    Register for an account

    Use the same email you use here on the blog

    Once you’re signed in there you can sign in here.

  • sayanything-277

    “That goes back to the “fish in a barrel” theory, although I still firmly believe he would have had to have gotten some additional training somewhere to make this happen in this way.”

    My thoughts exactly. The number of hits and kills are the marks of real professional killers. I wonder if he, Hasan, ever visited Pakistan where most of the jihadist get their training.

  • sayanything-277

    “it’s an American problem…no doubt about it.”

    Yeah, it’s much more peaceful in other countries like Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, etc. Wait, all those countries also have muslims, don’t they?

  • headward

    Well he was a Major so he would be trained and familar with the M9. He would also have to qualify with it every year as it is required to do so. I still think that he would need a rifle. Pistols are highly inaccurate.

    Pil – You’re complete right to be wondering why this doesn’t add up. The added ammo would not be light either.

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