Ah the ole “making things less safe for our soldiers”!

Let me point out. We didn’t torture the Japanese, they beheaded and tortured us. We didn’t torture the Nazi’s, shot and tortured us. We didn’t torture the NK’s or Chinese they tortured us. We tortured some VC and NVA, they shot and tortured us. We didn’t torture the Somalians, they tortured us desecrated bodies and shot prisoners. Al Queda kidnaps, captures, tortures and beheads us. We interrogate people by not letting them sleep and pretending to drown them using a method we use on our own people. Not exactly torture. Here’s what they do.

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2007/0524072torture1.html

That’s torture. Listen up kids. As a soldier it was made very plain to me, don’t give up because if you get captured its usually your ass. Unlike other people we have fought, America may play hard ball to get some information out of you but when your information becomes worthless we don’t interrogate you for shits and giggles. The Japanese, NK’s and NVA would systematically beat you for fun. That’s torture Gentleman. I don’t see us beating up Abdul the goat herder on a regular basis. He has no real information we can use. I don’t have any real qualms with us waterboarding a man that can behead someone with a knife. It took a long time for Daniel Pearl to die. If we can get information out of him that saves one life it was worth it.

I worked for WorldCom, but left because it was corrupt from top down. I earned the nick name “Mr. Integrity”

Either WorldCom was a lot worse than I thought, or Wankertized’s co-workers were familiar with the concept of “irony”.

Thousands of innocents were tortured.

They Sow the Wind, and Reap the Whirlwind.

Thousands of innocents?

You talk about Obama as if he hailed from Chicago, but he was raised in Hawaii by a very kind and intelligent family that originated from kansas.

And Tony Rezko and William Ayers and all those Chicago politicians where he became a community organizer told him that if he clicked his ruby slippers together (or Michelle’s $600 sneaks) and said “There’s no place like home” three times, then Auntie Em would come and vote for him a dozen times in the names of dead people, cartoon characters and the starting line of the Dallas Cowboys!

This is lame even for you, Wankertized!

Difficult questions come with difficult answers. To protect my family and my country I would go to any lengths. Would that haunt me – I’m sure it would. But the haunting of knowing you could have done something and didn’t would be worse – much worse.

Excellent post Pilgrim. Kipling did have a way of putting things clearly didn’t he?

By your rationalization you can justify anything because they are the enemy and they want to kill us.

However, there are things we should not do. Unfortunately after 9/11 we lost that guidance. You are upset that Obama is having to instruct on how far we will go in interrogation. Well, it is his job to do so, but it wouldn’t be necessary if we didn’t lose our compass earlier.

And just what was the connection between the perpetrators behind 911 and the guys we tortured?

We captured them on the battlefield?

Torture has killed more Americans than it has saved.

Lioncourt:

There is no rationalization there.

Using an Army manual that anyone can get their hands on as a rulebook for interrogations is just plain butt stupid.

And, by the way, just how far would you go? I note that those critical are carefully avoiding an answer.

And finally….if you can get over the source of the gathered information, these links go to other bits of evidence that show why it is so important for us to take the higher ground, and how many high ranking US Commanders, officials and CIA agents believe your ideas are DEAD WRONG!

Funny the CIA’s IG’s report tells a different story. I went over there and look at the links some are from 2001 (hint: the CIA EIT program really kicked off in 2003), are sources from the FBI (I didn’t know they were in the EIT program. That’s right it was a CIA program!) or are wrong. I’ll just ask you a question. When the Gestapo captured members of the French resistance they immediately left all their safe houses, locations and stopped any planned missions, why? Because, if you can vet the information and hold the informee accountable, torture works. But that’s beside the point, EITs are not torture.

Torture has killed more Americans than it has saved.

You have proof of this?

1) Iraqis were not our enemies till we invaded .
2) Torturing Iraqis resulted in their years of actions against our troops.

They weren’t shooting at us daily in the “no fly zone”? They really didn’t try to kill the first Bush?

You’re still not answering the question, Woof….

Zig:

Well said.

Thanks Pilg.

BTW

Do you smell something that stinks real bad?

Oh.

Never mind.

Hannitized,

Out of all the liberal commentators here I would expect a more rational argument from you than, “Oh Yeah?” Finger pointing is not an argument, and I had nothing to do with the post you just linked.

While we almost always disagree you can actually make some cogent points from time to time.

You can do better than what you just posted…can’t you?

And by the way – same challenge. Answer the question. What would you do?

How far did the blacks go??

Good thing blacks followed peaceful method of behaving appropriately vs. those who were willing to go far, to prevent their continued subjugation.

Let’s see….look up the little incident that happened between 1861 and 1865. Ring any bells?

Now, back to the subject….how far would you go?

Why does da wiz have my initials framed on his basement wall?

French Poodle said: There were no credible threats, just overreaching cruelty.
Men and boys sold for ransom to the ignorant.

Hum, are Michael Moore? There is a terrorist threat and I don’t care what you say, this is 09/10/2001 thinking.

I’m trying very hard not to dig up my mp3 of AC/DC’s Another One Bites the Dust. – Move_ZIG

WTF???

Thousands of innocents?

Greg: WOOF treats facts like dogs treat fire hydrants.

Commanders of the military and CIA officials are telling us that this is not the right thing to do, and changing the context of the threat isn’t helping the discussion Pilgrim.

Is that today or what they were saying in 2001 Hannitized..?

atease

Herpi-tized hits a new low…

Completely false attribution.

I never said that.

And just what was the connection between the perpetrators behind 911 and the guys we tortured?

Trying to justify torture. By drawing a non existent correlation with WW2.

Deranged and sick and dishonest and dishonoring to those whose fought in WW2.

In my opinion, those who show contempt for civility are not entitled to its usual protections.

On Sept 20, 1985, four Soviet diplomats were kidnapped in Beirut by the Islamic Liberation Organization, a Salafist Sunni front for the Iranian-backed Hezbollah. One of the hostages, the embassy doctor, was tortured and shot and his body dumped near the Soviet embassy. The next day several of the ILO leader’s relatives were taken by the KGB. His younger brother was tortured, castrated, decapitated, and his testicles placed in his mouth. His body parts, including the head, were left on the street outside the ILO headquarters with the demand that the remaining Soviet kidnap victims be returned. The three kidnapped Russians were released that afternoon.

The idea that we should be nice, or respectful and decent to captured terrorists is not only absurd, but stupidly deluded and dangerous. The idea that we should avoid being mean or brutal to them in the hope that a captured American won’t be tortured or slaughtered is simply a ludicrous excuse for timidity and surrender. WSJ reporter Danny Pearl would understand.

The fact that you would approve the taking of innocent family members and killing them says alot about you.

Yeah… I suppose it does. But to be honest, it doesn’t begin to describe what I’d be willing to do, without remorse, to defend myself, my family, or my country.

… you would do it just because they are the enemy.

I’m not especially surprised, but what makes you think you’re qualified to identify or judge my motives?

Do you see the Leftist dynamic at work here?

Their moral ambivalence is on display for all to see.

They cannot, indeed, will not distinguish between naked aggression and valid self defense.

They cannot distinguish between the gun in the hand of a death camp guard and the M-1 carried by the US soldier liberating that same death camp.

They blind themselves to our need to defend ourselves against totalitarian aggression and in the same breath, are vociferous apologists for the most evil dictators.

Their forebears defended Stalin in this manner, denouncing rumors of the slaughter and starvation of the Kulaks and other enemies of Communism as a filthy, trumped-up lie.

They marched in the streets, fists aloft, singing the praises of the likes of Mao and Ho Chi Mihn.

To this very day, the posters that adorn their homes, dorms and offices are of Marx and Lenin, and on their T-Shirts, the cowardly murderer Che Guevara.

As in every case of Leftist lies about lies, their entire defense was built around a huge lie.

And like their forebears, when, years hence, the truth emerges, and the bodies of the victims have long since rotted to bones in some unmarked mass grave, they never acknowledge that they were wrong, but change the subject and launch into tirades, using a fresh batch of lies.

There is something very, very wrong with their minds…

…perhaps their souls.

Oh, I confused Move_Homophobe with Kitty-poo. Mea Culpa!

They are two like-minded phonies.

Hanny,

What I said was true. Where is all the outrage from the left with all the crap from the Obama WH?

Another thing. Has the Iraq War suddly become “justifiable” now that a democrat is in the WH? Where are the protests? What happened to the liberal press when Cindy went east?

Sorry about posting that twice. I was trying to correct my spelling error (‘suddenly’). I get frustrated by people who deny the obvious. And its late. I’m staying up with a sick two year old while Mom gets some sleep.

Wayne,

Many Democrats come from a long family of union members and union leadership. We have seen people dedicate their lives to ensuring the little guy gets an even break. I know, I am one of them.

Some of us have spent our lives working in politics to make a small difference to the average American.

You are as distrusting of Obama as we were of Bush. I wasn’t as outraged about many things he did, but i was about the Iraq war.

You talk about Obama as if he hailed from Chicago, but he was raised in Hawaii by a very kind and intelligent family that originated from kansas.

You have got to stop letting people rile you up and start looking at the evidence and not what you are told.

You have bought a lie.

Don’t you dare give me that self righteous crap. I was raised by a good man, an average American. Lower middle class working people. He taught me that I am responsible for myself and my actions. That I have to work for what I get.

If there would have been a democrat in the WH, the democrats in congress would not have said a word about “torture”, the liberal press would not have said a word either. I am amazed by how easy it is for the democrat powers that be to lead you people around by the nose. If its a democrat talking point, you guys are right on it. If its not, your not.

It’s obvious that you hate America and our laws, so take a hike.
Real Americans have no use for haters like you.

And yet you applaud scum like Dino.

Many Americans, including conservatives are against things that endanger our troops and set the wrong standards.

I’ve always been amused by the sheer childish stupidity of the “keeping our troops safe” argument. Talk about irrelevance. And sanctimony!

It’s invariably offered by those kids on the far Left who have no direct military knowledge, much less combat experience, for whom the argument sounds good, even if it makes no sense in reality.

Of course there is no proof whatsoever that our own behavior toward or treatment of terrorists would in any way influence how a captured US serviceman or woman would be treated. Military personnel, real ones, understand this. And those who are aghast at the waterboarding of Khalid Sheik Mohammed, for example, self-righteously overlook who, or what, they’re dealing with. KSM is not only the 9/11 mastermind, but the man who bragged about having decapitated reporter Danny Pearl… long before anyone had ever heard of Guantanamo or Abu Ghraib.

Nor is it a settled matter that waterboarding actually constitutes “torture.” There are respectable opinions on both sides of that issue.

There may be some slight argument that the liberal manner of addressing terrorist captives sets an example, but that’s really more about self-serving sanctimony than any real world regard or reciprocity. Blood thirsty animals who delight in slaughtering innocent women and children are unlikely to respond to cordiality and good will, no matter how well-intended. And the argument about “lost goodwill” is often trumpeted but never proven.

Team Obama’s actions can only be construed to mean that the rookies from Chicago have no more idea what they’re doing in the area of foreign policy and national defense than they do with domestic economic policy. National security isn’t something that those on the Left are serious about.

I suppose I would go as far as to ensure our government doesn’t behave in a manner that puts our soldiers at greater risk of being tortured because we are doing things we have agreed not to do after learning of the horrors the Nazi’s committed and aslo by signing the Geneva conventions

Hannitized: You can’t be tortured when you’re head is lying in your lap. The tired argument that it puts our soldiers at greater risk is a bunch of shit, and you know it.

Crazy is crazy. You can’t make em “crazier”. There is only so many ways to cut off someone’s head, or put a bullet into it. The effect is the same either way. So drop the “put soldiers into more danger” bullshit.

Greg:

But we put panties on someone’s head. And blew cigar smoke in someone’s face. And put a power drill next to someone’s head.

NVA? Amateurs. Al Qaeda? Rookies. Japanese? Mere children.

Panties on the head, though…..I shudder at the thought. (leaving out, of course, the fact that some people pay pefectly good money for the very same treatment.)

Heh.

Hey Bat,

Good morning! Have you woken up yet? Try this!

[T]here are serving U.S. flag-rank officers who maintain that the first and second identifiable causes of U.S. combat deaths in Iraq — as judged by their effectiveness in recruiting insurgent fighters into combat — are, respectively the symbols of Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ly82Kc1H6Fw

• JAGs: Enhanced techniques endangers U.S. soldiers.
“Employment of exception techniques may have a negative effect on the treatment of U.S. POWs by their captors and raises questions about the ability of the U.S. to call others to account for mistreatment of U.S. servicemembers.” [memos from Deputy JAG of Air Force Jack Rives, Navy JAG Michael Lohr, and Staff JAG to the Commandant of the Marine Corps Kevin Sandkuhler, to Air Force General Counsel Mary Walker, Feb. 2003. Senate Armed Services Report,

http://documents.nytimes.com/report-by-the-senate-armed-services-committee-on-detainee-treatment#p=2

And finally….if you can get over the source of the gathered information, these links go to other bits of evidence that show why it is so important for us to take the higher ground, and how many high ranking US Commanders, officials and CIA agents believe your ideas are DEAD WRONG!

http://thinkprogress.org/why-enhanced-interrogation-failed/

It’s not surprising that both of you are reduced to hyperbole and nonsense.

Where he became a politician is not indicative of how he conducts himself.

I worked for WorldCom, but left because it was corrupt from top down. I earned the nick name “Mr. Integrity” because I pissed so many people off refusing to participate on any project that was not beneficial to our customers.

Same thing happens to good people everywhere. Unless you want to condemn ever Republican or person in the entire state with your silly presumptions?

Be adult, if just for a moment. Will ya?

I worked for WorldCom, but left because it was corrupt from top down. I earned the nick name “Mr. Integrity” because I pissed so many people off refusing to participate on any project that was not beneficial to our customers.

Actually, Hannitized, I can believe that based on the way you stick to an argument, even in the face of fact. There, you’ve just had your compliment for the year. Now as to this:

Nobody is talking about that Pilgrim…..and you know it.

That’s exactly what we’re talking about. Instead of treating these things for what they were – relatively minor abuses for which people paid with their careers or jail – the left and media pounced on them and beat them like a drum in order to discredit Bush and the war in Iraq.

They forfeited any sense of decency, and they’re not through yet. They won’t be satisfied until we can’t do anything but ask terror suspects nicely (after Miranda)if they plan on killing anyone – or everyone.

Good men and women will regret having done their duty.

That is EXACTLY the point.

If Obama’s administration is caught promoting the type of interrogating techniques criticized today, I will wager you will see a lot.

Of course, this too is a lie. Obama announced at the beginning of the year that he was abandoning EIC, then he formed a committee to see about using EIC.

The result? Crickets.

And this silliness about EIC making our soldiers less safe is hyperbole. Our baby gloves on the Viet Cong and NVs didn’t stop them from torturing McCain and our other POWs. Under Clinton, kid gloves didn’t stop al Quida from shooting a wheelchaired vet and pushing him overboard. Us following the Geneva convention didn’t stop the mass murder of our surrendering soldiers by the Germans (in violation of the Geneva Conventions), not did it stop the genocide of the Jews.

Why not just admit that evil people are motivated by evil and not by grievances? There is nothing we could’ve done to stop Hitler from killing the Jews. No land given, no concessions, no amount of money would’ve stopped his insane genocide. No amount of warnings stopped Saddam’s torture rooms (where they’d have loved to be water boarded instead of put through a paper shredder), his rape and torture of Shia, or his genocide against the Kurds. The harshest criticism didn’t stop the Rwandan massacre and is doing nothing in Sudan either.

This idea that if we just treat our enemies as friends to be, they will put down their guns, has been repeatedly decimated by the reality of history. But those of us with heads devoid of intelligence and swelled with hubris continue to buy into it. Why? Simple vanity. Some of us simply believe that they are so enlightened, so brilliant, so skilled and gifted that they can change the very fabric of reality.

Such vanity and irreality is dangerous and must be fought just as hard as the evil itself.

Our baby gloves on the Viet Cong and NVs didn’t stop them from torturing McCain and our other POWs.

And yet John McCain says that it makes US prisoners less safe and more likely to be tortured.

You have picked an odd poster boy for your lie Kenny.

But, hey….who would have suspected any less?

Who says the “or” is exclusive?

No doubt.

Those front-line Guys, who know their men and look out for their welfare, know exactly what is on the line.

For them the stakes are clear: US or THEM.

There can be no doubt or equivocation — if I have to choose between the safety of my men and accomplishing the mission and the lives or discomfort of some dirtbag hyena terrorist, terrorist loses — every — fucking — time.

Is the question would I atom bomb the Japanese so that American forces wouldn’t have to invade the Japanese homeland ?
The answer is yes.
Would I bomb the Japanese because Saudi radicals blew up the Trade Center?
The answer is no.

Tough to argue about the “credible threats” in that picture, pparets. Perfect!!

You reading the same report?

The IG Report also documents numerous other abuses that have been documented by prior OLC memos, including having waterboarded detainees 82 and 183 times; hanging them by their arms until interrogators thought their shoulders might be dislocated; stepping on their ankle shackles to cause severe bruising and pain; putting them in a diapers and leaving them doused with water on cold concrete floors in cold temperatures to induce hypothermia, etc. Some of the numerous deaths of detainees during interrogations were also discussed

Those masters, almost to a man, always sat in judgment from the comforts of home, family, and office?

Torture has killed more Americans than it has saved.