Since several cities and states already have minimum wages legislated above the federal minimum wage, what’s the problem? Why the heck can’t the people who want it increased complain to their local governments. It doesn’t belong in the hands of Congress.

The Whistler,

When you explain it like that I bet ever diane could understand it. Good show!

Regards…

Steve:

Since several cities and states already have minimum wages legislated above the federal minimum wage, what’s the problem? Why the heck can’t the people who want it increased complain to their local governments. It doesn’t belong in the hands of Congress.

That’s an excellent point.

Our system works best when we remember it was designed to distribute the decision making, rather than centralize it.

A single “one-size-fits-all” minimum wage hike makes much less sense than just having each region regulate where that wage should be set at (or if at all).

IMO the group that get’s hurt the most when Congress raises the minimum wage are the folks that are one step above that.

Many of these people are in line for a raise. When Congress raises the minumum the money that would have gone to the experienced folks goes to the new hires.

well I guess I don’t disagree Carrick that the job is an hard one. Very very hard for those that actually are trying to do a good job.

However if we’re paying for what’s actually being accomplished we shouldn’t be paying much.

Of course if the goal is to make the most vulnerable members of our society unemployable than it’s a pretty effective tool.

will vote down a pay raise for the poorest workers.

Puzzle: You may have a hard time understanding this but Congress doesn’t pay everyone’s wages. See what happens is that employer A offers a job to person B at a certain amount of money. If person B decides that isn’t what they are worth they are free to take another job.

I know this free market stuff is tough to grasp.

TW:

However if we’re paying for what’s actually being accomplished we shouldn’t be paying much.

Have you reviewed what’s gotten accomplished, or are you just PO’d that your own pet projects (e.g., immigration) haven’t gotten accomplished yet?

Seems to me like they’re pretty hard at work doing mostly what they’re paid to do, which is write legislation that controls how the country gets run. We’re right in the middle of the House & Senate spending authorization cycle right now, so don’t expect them too go off topic.

Now would be a good time for people who genuinely care on one side of the other of this issue to write their congress critters. Even if it’s just a complaint that it’s not being given enough attention…

Why don’t we just make everyone who earns over minimum wage and wants it raised pay half of the differnce between their pay and minimum wage into a special fund to be divided between those less fortunate so they can prove for once and all that they care? The minimum wage earners will get an increase and surely those lefties who want it raised will be happy as can be to put their money where their mouths are instead of making others pay for what they want. Wouldn’t they? Wouldn’t they???

Perhaps the problem isn’t merely WOOF’s lack of experience running a business, as several of us have done. Perhaps instead, this is his first real experience with this argument. After all, there has been, thankfully, no raise in the federal minimum wage for over a decade. I suspect that he simply has not experienced this argument both practically and theoretically before.

WOOF,

I will hunt up the numbers you’ve asked for tomorrow, but in the meantime please think this thru carefully. Assuming all else to be equal: sales (in units and dollars), costs (besides labor) both fixed and variable, etc., where then does the money come from for the increased wages mandated by law? If the most inexperienced, apprentice workers now cost me more money per hour, week, or month, or per unit sold if you prefer, how then am I able to afford the increase itself… never mind expanding my workforce by hiring more workers? If my labor costs now go up by 30-40%(FICA, Workman’s comp, etc.) or more, where does that money come from, and how can I afford any more employees?

I know you’re being a bit tongue in cheek, TW. But it would be interesting if all of us involved in politics (at one level or another) actually spent some time in the office of a Senator or member of the House. I haven’t done so myself, but my bestest friend had a summer internship with Senator Lugar, who relayed in great detail his experiences to me. Quite an eye-opening experience into the workings of congress.

I came away with a lot more respect for these guys, how hard they work, and how hard their jobs really are.

Woof: It’s not theory; it’s fact. You should run a business for a few years before you shoot off your mouth about such matters.

The problem with that is that jobs can be moved around. If town A raises their minimum wage that town will lose jobs pretty fast to town B.

When that increase happens over the entire country it takes longer for organizations to adjust. Of course prices will rise, jobs will disappear and there will be more outsourcing.

But that doesn’t matter because in the short term politicians can feel good about themselves by spending other peoples money.

Am I the only to notice you could hear a pin drop as soon as someone mentioned the liberals picking up the tab for their plan?

WOOF offers,

The world is more complicated than a simplistic ideal and effected by forces not so easily calculated.

That sentence sounds even more profound than it is. I congratulate you. Be aware, however, you are likely to see that same profound sentence hurtling back at you the very next time you offer up some “simplistic ideal” from the left side of the spectrum.

As for “easily calculated” forces, I will have some numbers for you to support the notion that the private sector does not, can not, manufacture money to pay for government mandates, as does the federal government.

Meanwhile, perhaps you’d offer some citations for those “studies of minimum wage and employment” to which you referred. If you could actually document those instances when “what should be obvious results from classical theory is (sic) not apparent in reality” I would really appreciate your effort. Thanks.

Bat: You are probably right about the genesis of Woof’s position on minimum wage laws. He undoubtedly thinks, like marxist theorists do, that all the work product belongs to labor, and that wages are arbitrarily set by the “management” to exploit the workers, so that minimum wage laws right an existing wrong. This 19th century economic ignorance still survives because we don’t have economic education in schools, but we do have marxist principles being taught. Woof is probably another unknowing victim of the socialist public education system. You know, it’s the job of the govt to rescue the workers from the rascally capitalists. Don’t know how we can get all this wealth from poor people. Even Robin Hood robbed the rich. Only politicians rob from the poor.

Ah, but that’s WOOF’s style: Hit and run, snide (or cryptic) comment, condescending tone, but never ever actually debate anything. You can’t fire the weapon if you don’t have the ammunition. He’s just another troll, albeit a more polite one than most.

Regards…

So let me ask this,

If any sort of min wage is unfair to business owners than what mechanism besides supply and demand exists to insure that the lowest level jobs in our country are paid a living wage? If the supply of labor is high then what prevents McDonald’s from paying $2.00 an hour?

I’m disgusted by the 19th century capitalist economic garbage quoted by the people in this thread. The world has seen the negative effects of capitalism run amok.

Considering most min wage jobs are in the service industry, I find it very hard to believe that any given service business can afford to cut the number of service positions they have. These are not manufacturing jobs, these are jobs at Arby’s.

Ther are lots of numbers , I have seen none that are definitive. Minimum wage increases are probably marginal compared to greater economic forces.
Minimum wages and youth unemployment

Bat: I totally agree. Notice that, while pressing us for numbers, Woof offers no numbers in support of his position. It’s an old trick of the lefties.

Careful now Jon, the longknives are about to come out. Be prepared for the following names to be used on you: Commie, Socialist, Leftard,
wingnut, stupid, oh what else. Be prepared for R108′s lecture on Econ 101, logic and Guttermouth 2h9′s berating namecalling commentary. Oh and there will be others.
Hang on, it’s a wild ride on this blog.

And the states would have no choice but to pay welfare payments to these people.

Sez who?

Woof: It’s the Law of Supply and Demand, not a theory. It isn’t based on purity, but on human difference, unlike Marxist theory, which is based on an unattainable ideal of equal outcome for everyone(except the ruling elite, of course, who get much more). Thought you might like to know.

Those were not marxists talking points. Actually those were my own words based on facts and experience. Apparently you haven’t experienced the Marxism that was rampant in the ’40s, ’50s, ’60s and ’70s when the us governement shot and killed it’s own citizens, The most notable characteristic of a fascist country is the separation and persecution or denial of equality to a specific segment of the population based upon superficial qualities or belief systems. Marxism and Fascism are two very different things

Oh, and how could I forget the old meme “Marxist talking points”,oh never mind that’s already been used here as has “free people making free choices.” Woo-Hoo!

JD: BTW, I never called you a Marxist. I said you recited Marxist talking points. Maybe you don’t know that you were doing that.

Jon,

The thing that you miss in your commentary is that people are free to employ themselves. You seem to assume that if you can only be employed by others and that if you have a “minimum wage job” you can only work for that one employer because you can’t work elsewhere, or that once you hold a minimum wage job, you are stuck there eternally.

Most minimum wage jobs are entry level positions. Most corporations are not willing to employ people at minimum wage because they have little or no skill.

The most amazing thing to me is you radical right wing capitalists, who by and large identify yourselfs as Christians are so quick to throw people away; to be as UN-Christian as possible.

What’s wrong about this is: Christianity wants people to prosper on their own. The “Teach a man to fish…” parable is applicable here. Christians are looking for people to empower themselves in their lives. Minimum wage gives the man a fish…

Amazing how your economic theories stand in stark contrast to your moral ones.

As I just noted, it’s not… but you seem to assume that the conservatives here are all Christian… an unwise assumption.

At least be consistent in your application. Just say you hate poor people and minorities and you would be happier in a world without them.

I strongly dislike people who do nothing to better themselves then whine to the Govt to do things FOR them… Most of the “Poor” in the US fall into this group. Of course, our poor live like royalty compared to most third world countries and like the middle class of most European countries…

hundreds of years of capitalism has proven no better a socio-economic system than pure socialism yet you still stand there and defend it.

Wow… Misguided. Prior to our free market capitalism, the Romans developed a system much like ours. When Rome fell, they were nearly as industrious and innovative as we are. Rome had medicine, architecture, and many other technologies that would not be reinvented for 1500 years. Capitalism creates innovation. Where did the computer come from? Would it exist today without capitalism?

Where has capitalism left us? With a poluted environment, a pornographically wealthy 5%, a struggling middle class and a poor lower class that is doomed to propegate itself because its members have virtually no chance to improve their condition thanks to the work of people who hold to an outmoded, debunked economic theory.

Are you serious? Our poor are better off than 90% of the rest of the world and you state that they are hopeless to improve their lives?

Combine that with an advertising industry AND a government that promotes economic consumption as a virtue as opposed to compassion and reason.

More problems with your logic. It’s the socialists that want Government to “Promote” anything. Us free-market conservatives want the Government to regulate for safety… but get out of the way for everything else. We don’t want the Government to “promote” anything… That’s for the people to do.

Look at that PuzzleFoot… I didn’t call him a name…

Robert108,

Even if we are right, and WOOF has not yet been thru this argument, that still does not vitiate his own lack of thought on the matter.

One of the advantages of having a paper route way back when, is that it taught many of the same lessons, (per unit costs, profit margin, sales and profit volume, economies of scale, etc.) on a very practical level which we could understand even at a tender age. By the time Econ 201 came around, the lessons were already learned and all that was needed was to fill in the correct vocabulary.

As in so many other areas today (history, financial basics, civility and manners, to name a few) it’s a real shame what we don’t teach kids any longer.

Puzzle: Namecalling aside (which I don’t like and is unnecessary), if you don’t want to be called a socialist…don’t advocate socialist ideas.

Jon: All socialist reforms lead to communism. Whether we get there through red revolution or get there through the creeping of socialistic programs and legislation into our society, the end game is communism and totalitarianism. It all leads to the same place, the only difference is how fast we get there.

Free people making free choices is the best policy. That is what should be embraced.

Puzzle: What have you got against free people making free choices?