Say Anything Blog

Of course the offset should be charging the citizens of guam for being liberated from the Japs.

I figure we’ve done enough to compensate them.

TANSTAAFL

We live in a world where man thinks himself ruler over God’s creation… lord of all things, he is not lord of himself.

Two thoughts:

1) The phrase “living Guam residents who were killed” tells you all you need to know about this idiotic bill.

2) It makes plenty of sense from a liberal perspective.  They don’t want to recompense the people of Guam for atrocities committed by the Japanese.  They want to recompense them for being duped into believing that America is good and worth fighting for.

1) The phrase “living Guam residents who were killed” tells you all you need to know about this idiotic bill.

Yeah, I noticed that as well and was going to comment on it.  Who is that retarded?

I think Rob hates me… I mean, just look at the pic he took of me!

Spaghetti, they are not retarded. They are leftarded.

Exactly why, lets put that in CAPS, WHY is Nanny Pelosi putting this forward? How does this profit her? What is the real story?

Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

Hello.  I posted other comments to this on the KXnet.com website, but I just wanted to say this is not a Democrat vs. Republican or liberal vs. conservative issue (I’m a Republican).  Guam’s governor is a Republican and the island is basically conservative in nature.  The only thing I want to say is that the reason this bill is the right thing to do is because the U.S. Government did something that prevents the eligible people of Guam from making reparation claims against the government of Japan:  The U.S. government officially and legally signed off in the immediate aftermath of Guam’s liberation an agreement to totally absolve the Japanese government from any reponsibility or obligation for war reparations.  There’s a reason this bill has “Loyalty Recognition” in its title--the people suffered exceptional brutality in part because of the fierce loyalty of Guam’s people toward America even during the darkest and most heinous times of the Japanese occupation.  No, the U.S. Government should not have allowed Japan to not have to pay for the horrendous treatment they meted out against the people of Guam, but it did.  While the Nazis were doing their thing in Europe, the Japanese were doing their thing in Guam (rapes, forced marches and relocations into concentration/labor camps enforced with machetes, grenades, and machine guns) against innocent American civilians.  Since it did, this is a small measure of taking care of its own, as belated as it is.  To absolve Japan was a travesty; nonetheless, it happened.  Having done so, however, $126 million is a truly small price to pay 65+ years later for having assumed the responsibility of rebuiding destroyed lives, homes, families, entire villages, and livelihoods.  It’s actually quite sad most Americans have no clue what took place over there in Guam, where to this day you’ll find some of the most patriotic and loyal Americans you can find anywhere in our great country.

rqf, I suggest you take a course in wtiting and hopefuly gain knowledge on paragraph usage.

You don’t have to be a moron to be a liberal Democrat but it sure helps.

I think we found the guy that wrote all survivors who were killed by the Japs should get reparations.

Really does any idiot think that a small cash payment for atrocities committed 60 years ago paid by the country that liberated the survivors is going to help anything?

$126 million is a truly small price to pay 65+ years later for having assumed the responsibility of rebuiding destroyed lives, homes, families, entire villages, and livelihoods.

If you haven’t rebuilt that stuff since then you’ve got some serious problems jack.

TANSTAAFL

The US government should not be in the business of paying penitence, literally, for things that it did over half a century ago.  This issue is ridiculous.  Paying sums of money to random people whom were “killed” by Japs 60 years ago will accomplish nothing and is meaningless.  It’s just a lottery ticket being paid out and it’s taking advantage of people’s sypmathy to do so.

For sham, scammers.

I think Rob hates me… I mean, just look at the pic he took of me!

RQF, this is nothing but a payoff for Nanny, either to her or from her.

America has sent a vast amount of money to the citizens of Guam, and the other island possessions captured by Japan. To even pretend we have not made good on our obligations is ludicrous. This is part&parcel of her interconnections to Dole and Starkist. Hell, her constituents didn’t call her the Pineapple Princess many years ago for nothing.

Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

I wonder what RQF thinks the blood of the US Servicemen who died on that island to FREE the people and Guam, and then give them rights and citizenship, is “worth”.  Apparently not enough, he needs another $126 million on top of blood of the US Army.

Asshole.

I think Rob hates me… I mean, just look at the pic he took of me!

Oh, and RQF, if you’re wondering which servicemen you’re spitting on when you ask for your $126 million?  Here’s a list... Asshole

I think Rob hates me… I mean, just look at the pic he took of me!

To absolve Japan was a travesty; nonetheless, it happened.  Having done so, however, $126 million is a truly small price to pay 65+ years later for having assumed the responsibility of rebuiding destroyed lives, homes, families, entire villages, and livelihoods.

I am sure it was a travesty.. but 65 years later.. Come on. How many people are even alive that suffered that travesty. And I am sure there are some, but if they have waiting this long for reperations instead of moving on, their morons.

"All the perplexities, confusion and distress in America arise not from defects in their Constitution or Confederation, nor from want of honor or virtue, so much as downright ignorance of the nature of coin, credit and circulation.”
- John Adams

rqf, I suggest you take a course in wtiting and hopefuly gain knowledge on paragraph usage.

DocDave--just by reading what I have to say and how I said it should clue you in that I’m an articulate and educated person.  So I didn’t break it up in paragraphs...big deal.  I don’t need to take a course, thank you, just like you don’t need a grammar course so that you can write “writing” instead of “wtiting.”

I think we found the guy that wrote all survivors who were killed by the Japs should get reparations.

Take the time to read what I said--"eligible people of Guam”...I am NOT in favor of some crazy handout like it’s the welfare line.  The bill has specific criteria and the burden of proof is on the claimants.

The US government should not be in the business of paying penitence, literally, for things that it did over half a century ago.

The U.S. Government should not have been in the business of letting Imperial Japan off the hook for fixing the havoc they created by invading and occupying American soil and subjugating American nationals.  Period.

I wonder what RQF thinks the blood of the US Servicemen who died on that island to FREE the people and Guam, and then give them rights and citizenship, is “worth”.  Apparently not enough, he needs another $126 million on top of blood of the US Army.

This is the biggest lie of all.  I think of the blood of the liberating forces all the time and am eternally grateful.  It’s no accident Liberation Day is the biggest holiday on Guam and the main thoroughfare from Andersen AFB to the capital city to Naval Station Guam is named MARINE CORPS DRIVE.  By the way, thousands of Guam’s young men and women have served and continue to serve in the U.S. Armed Forces.  Just last week in Iraq, PFC John D. Flores, a son of Guam, is the latest young man to sacrifice his life in the service of his country.  The Guam Insular Force fought side by side with the small American contingent on the island in 1941 before they were overrun.

America has sent a vast amount of money to the citizens of Guam, and the other island possessions captured by Japan. To even pretend we have not made good on our obligations is ludicrous.

Good point, but just know that there is plenty of give and take in the Guam-U.S. relationship.  For example, tens of thousands of acres of prime private land was taken over by our government.  Probably a full quarter of Guam is now owned by our government...don’t ask how many millions that land is now worth.  Also, the island serves today as America’s first line of defense against lots of threats in the Asia-Pacific region, making it vulnerable to attacks against U.S. interests.  The people support America because it IS America there.

Oh, and RQF, if you’re wondering which servicemen you’re spitting on when you ask for your $126 million?  Here’s a list… Asshole

Sphagnum--is everyone who has an opinion different than yours an A******? 

I am sure it was a travesty.. but 65 years later.. Come on. How many people are even alive that suffered that travesty. And I am sure there are some, but if they have waiting this long for reperations instead of moving on, their morons.

OK..."justice delayed is justice denied” means nothing to you.  What’s the statute of limitation for mass murder (yes, there were massacres that occurred against civilians) and rape?  As long as 20, 30, 60 years has gone by, it’s OK now.  What kind of ridiculous statement is that?

ONCE AGAIN:  It is not the U.S.’s fault what Imperial Japan did against the citizens of Guam, but we totally let them off the hook.  It is of no small significance--even though it seems to be going over everyone’s heads--that this was on American territory and against American people that all this happened to.  This would not even be a discussion if it happened in California, Florida, Nebraska, or North Dakota.

It doesn’t matter if it was yesterday or 65 years ago.  To quote another illustrious comment from this thread,

Really does any idiot think that a small cash payment for atrocities committed 60 years ago paid by the country that liberated the survivors is going to help anything?

NO, it probably won’t replace a murdered mother or father or brother or sister or a destroyed home or village, but justice is still waiting and has been waiting since the 40’s.

If you hate to pay $126 million, then have Congress beg off the treaty absolving Japan of what it should be responsible for.  IT WON’T HAPPEN.

RQF,

OK, I’ll gladly pay $126M for reparations just as soon as the citizens of Guam pay taxes for 62 years worth of U.S. protection and beneficence.  I’ll even be willing to waive the normal interest and penalties that the IRS would charge any other U.S. citizen.

RQF,

OK, I’ll gladly pay $126M for reparations just as soon as the citizens of Guam pay taxes for 62 years worth of U.S. protection and beneficence.  I’ll even be willing to waive the normal interest and penalties that the IRS would charge any other U.S. citizen.

kbiel,

First of all, the citizens of Guam do not OWE anything for “U.S. protection and beneficence.” They are ENTITLED to “U.S. protection and beneficence” because they are Americans, just like you, I, and others are entitled to it as Americans in any of the 50 states and outlying areas.

To your other point, Guam citizens do pay taxes, but more to your point, you’re correct that it doesn’t go to the federal treasury, it returns back to run the government there.  It’s debatable how well they use that tax money, but that’s another ball of wax.  (Who doesn’t say that about any U.S. jurisdiction?)

This is not about the normal give and take between the federal government and local governments with federal funds.  I totally agree with you because of it’s small size and the demonstrated generosity of the U.S. Government in rebuilding the island from near total destruction, Guam has benefited greatly.  The U.S. Government, of course, has conversely benefited for many reasons as well. 

This is strictly about war reparations.

Nobody is saying it wasn’t ultimately Japan’s responsibility for reparations, but for whatever reasons that made sense to somebody deep in the U.S. War Department in the post-war dialogue between it and the Japanese officials, the U.S. forgave the brutalizers.  The affected people argue forgiveness and absolution should not have been cavalierly handled the way it apparently was...and since it was, their only recourse is with Congress to make a wrong right. 

The fact that it has taken 60+ years just to get to this point is an indictment of the entire process of addressing a grievance of this magnitude.

First of all, the citizens of Guam do not OWE anything for “U.S. protection and beneficence.” They are ENTITLED to “U.S. protection and beneficence” because they are Americans, just like you, I, and others are entitled to it as Americans in any of the 50 states and outlying areas.

Do you think we don’t pay state and local taxes.  How is that different?

Part of the entitlement is the obligation to pay for the defense.

To your other point, Guam citizens do pay taxes, but more to your point, you’re correct that it doesn’t go to the federal treasury, it returns back to run the government there.  It’s debatable how well they use that tax money, but that’s another ball of wax.  (Who doesn’t say that about any U.S. jurisdiction?)

I totally agree with you because of it’s small size and the demonstrated generosity of the U.S. Government in rebuilding the island from near total destruction, Guam has benefited greatly. 

So already we’ve done our best to make Guam whole (even though we also paid a terrible price to liberate much of the world.

Didn’t we also prosecute any provable war crimes too.  We didn’t let them off the hook and Japan surely suffered from the war themselves.

Grow up and move on with your life.

TANSTAAFL

Do you think we don’t pay state and local taxes.  How is that different?

Whistler:  I clearly note the sarcasm.  Back at ya!  I think I see all those deductions on my pay stub...the dreaded federal, state and local taxes.

Part of the entitlement is the obligation to pay for the defense.

If they don’t do by direct taxation, one way they do it is by giving up the gorgeous tropical paradise land that Andersen AFB, NCTMS, Naval Station Guam, U.S. Naval Magazine (ad nauseaum) sit on and by being within easy striking distance of anything China or North Korea (or terrorists) might want to do. 

Another way they do it is by serving and dying in America’s wars.  As do many young men and women in any mid-America city or town.

So already we’ve done our best to make Guam whole (even though we also paid a terrible price to liberate much of the world.

Yes, we did.  That’s why I love America so much.

Didn’t we also prosecute any provable war crimes too.  We didn’t let them off the hook and Japan surely suffered from the war themselves.

Prosecuting war criminals and providing war reparations for acts against innocent civilians and their properties are two entirely different things.

We did let them off the hook from their obligations to the people they brutalized.  That’s the entire reason for this being considered in Congress right now, the process of which started way before the Democratic majority that is now in there.

One thing the US congress could do is to break or change the agreement with Japan.  This wouldn’t be the first time a treaty or agreement was changed!  Who else?  Why not some French for defending against Germany?  Why not Serbia for being bombed by the US?  The Japanese were responsible.  They should pay if anyone.

Communism is evil

RQF,

I really don’t understand your mindset.  The people of Guam enjoy the privileges and protections afforded to any U.S. citizen and yet do not pay the same taxes that those who live in the 50 states do.  They do not pay for the military protection they receive or the federal benefits they enjoy.  And yet, that is not enough.  We, who pay the IRS each year, must also dole out millions of dollars because of something that the Japanese did.

I don’t care if our treaty absolved the Japanese of their responsibility to pay reparations, Guam has already benefited greatly from U.S. tax payer money.  In fact, they have received protections and services that cost a lot more than $126M.

Why is that not enough?  Why can’t it be enough that we liberated Guam from the Japanese and have given the residents of Guam all the benefits of U.S. citizenship without all of the costs?

I have an even better idea than my first one.  Let’s remove Guam’s territorial status, remove our military base, remove our postal system, stop funding their government, stop allowing residents of Guam to enjoy the benefits of U.S. citizenship and then the residents of Guam will no longer be a party to our treaty with Japan.  That will allow them to sue the Japanese government for their reparations. How is that for a deal?

So if my government enters into a treaty that I don’t like am I entitled to receive benefits?

TANSTAAFL

One thing the US congress could do is to break or change the agreement with Japan.  This wouldn’t be the first time a treaty or agreement was changed!  Who else?  Why not some French for defending against Germany?  Why not Serbia for being bombed by the US?  The Japanese were responsible.  They should pay if anyone.

Chief RZ,

I agree with you.  I wish they would do that.  That would be the best result.

BTW, I’m a retired USAF MSgt/E-7.  Go, Air Force!

by being within easy striking distance of anything China or North Korea (or terrorists) might want to do.

I grew up in the shadow of a SAC base.  The Book of Lists had us listed as the #2 target of the Russians.  (#1 military target)

Where’s my check?

TANSTAAFL

I really don’t understand your mindset.

The mindset in the 40’s is what you need to to think about, not mine in 2007.

The people of Guam enjoy the privileges and protections afforded to any U.S. citizen and yet do not pay the same taxes that those who live in the 50 states do.  They do not pay for the military protection they receive or the federal benefits they enjoy.  And yet, that is not enough.  We, who pay the IRS each year, must also dole out millions of dollars because of something that the Japanese did.

In many ways, citizenship is not quite like what you enjoy here in the mainland U.S., e.g. voting representation in Congress consists of one non-voting delegate [except in committees], can’t vote for President, etc.  So they don’t have a lot of choice of what laws they fall under.  Imagine how much clout a non-voting delegate has…

I don’t want to sound like I’m complaining--the people being U.S. citizens is awesome.  It’s just good to be aware that when you talk about this civics stuff, states vs. territories can by like apples vs. oranges.

I don’t care if our treaty absolved the Japanese of their responsibility to pay reparations

Of course you don’t care because it didn’t happen to you, your family, or your friends.

I have an even better idea than my first one.  Let’s remove Guam’s territorial status, remove our military base, remove our postal system, stop funding their government, stop allowing residents of Guam to enjoy the benefits of U.S. citizenship and then the residents of Guam will no longer be a party to our treaty with Japan.  That will allow them to sue the Japanese government for their reparations. How is that for a deal?

This is the height of arrogance, like an overlord’s rhetoric against its colonized minions.

These are people have proudly been under the U.S. flag since 1898.  They gave up much and only ask a little (like not dictating terms with Imperial Japan without full and due consideration of what the impact was and is on the people that decision affected).

Whew!  This is exhausting!

So if my government enters into a treaty that I don’t like am I entitled to receive benefits?

Whistler,

This is a far more complex issue that involves war time atrocities of vicious brutality that includes butchery, enslavement, and massacres...not some minor inconvenience like breaking a nail or something.

by being within easy striking distance of anything China or North Korea (or terrorists) might want to do.

I grew up in the shadow of a SAC base.  The Book of Lists had us listed as the #2 target of the Russians.  (#1 military target)

Where’s my check?

Did the Russians rape your mother, behead your father, herd all the people of Minot into forced labor camps in the interior of the prairie so you can grow food for their Army?  Did they administer brutal beatings if you utter a word of English instead of Russian?

And then, did the U.S. Government absolve the Russian government from any responsibility to you after you proof your claim of their atrocities against you?

I didn’t think so.

I was referring to this:

If they don’t do by direct taxation, one way they do it is by giving up the gorgeous tropical paradise land that Andersen AFB, NCTMS, Naval Station Guam, U.S. Naval Magazine (ad nauseaum) sit on and by being within easy striking distance of anything China or North Korea (or terrorists) might want to do.

Way to quote me way out of context.

Small matter but I grew up in Grand Forks, not Minot.  Same thing.

Did the Russians rape your mother, behead your father, herd all the people of Minot into forced labor camps in the interior of the prairie so you can grow food for their Army?  Did they administer brutal beatings if you utter a word of English instead of Russian?

So if you get a check that’s going to make things all better?  I doubt it.

I think we prosecuted as many of the war criminals as we can.

If you feel that the Japanese people should suffer for what their army did then you’re out of luck.  Still what’s the point.  Nearly everyone who was of age in 1945 are dead or on their way.

How could you hold someone who wasn’t born yet for what someone else did?

It makes even less sense for you to think I should pay for it.  I didn’t vote for Harry Truman, I wasn’t even born.  Nearly everyone who did is dead or on their way.

Besides it’s nonsense to demand that the US taxpayer pay for atrocities that the US did their best to end.

It’s the looniest entitlement mentality that I’ve ever heard.

TANSTAAFL

So if you get a check that’s going to make things all better?  I doubt it.

I think we prosecuted as many of the war criminals as we can.

If you feel that the Japanese people should suffer for what their army did then you’re out of luck.  Still what’s the point.  Nearly everyone who was of age in 1945 are dead or on their way.

How could you hold someone who wasn’t born yet for what someone else did?

It makes even less sense for you to think I should pay for it.  I didn’t vote for Harry Truman, I wasn’t even born.  Nearly everyone who did is dead or on their way.

Besides it’s nonsense to demand that the US taxpayer pay for atrocities that the US did their best to end.

All good points, but there are other ways to view this whole thing that you dimissively refer to as the “looniest entitlement mentality” you’ve ever heard of.

For one thing, since no one can resurrect all those dead people who caused the original problem, what choice is there?  Just say, oh well?  Because much time has gone by, just say oh well?

The fact (unfortunate fact, for many like you in today’s generation of Americans who are complaining about it) is that the individuals in the Executive and War departments in the 40’s, who made the decisions to handle the absolution of Imperial Japan, spoke on behalf of the U.S. as a nation.  It is in that context that the U.S. as a nation can now make a right wrong, albeit 60+ years later.

Way to quote me way out of context.

Yeah, it was out of context--but I think you still got the point I was trying to make.

Not that I didn’t have the answer, in saying prosecute the perpetrators for war crimes.

How many of the leaders of Japan except for Hirohito got a pass?  In fact Tojo himself was hung for war crimes.

For one thing, since no one can resurrect all those dead people who caused the original problem, what choice is there?  Just say, oh well?

Well, yeah.  It certainly isn’t going to punish the people of Japan by making me pay for their grandfathers’ crimes.

TANSTAAFL

We don’t owe Guam anything. They collect welfare, Social Security, Medicare and a whole host of other federal goodies that they pay no taxes on.

They’re leeches and now they’re asking for more money.

If you give them anything, give them commonwealth status. Let them JOIN in the process instead of merely leeching on it.

According to Wiki at least 5,500 Japanese were tried for war crimes. 

I would expect that many more were killed in combat or committed suicide.

Their justice is out of our hands.

TANSTAAFL

The mindset in the 40’s is what you need to to think about, not mine in 2007.

Uh, no, your mindset is what I need to think about.  You’re the one arguing this.  As far as I know, most residents of Guam don’t care for reparations or even know that there is a bill in congress.

In many ways, citizenship is not quite like what you enjoy here in the mainland U.S., e.g. voting representation in Congress consists of one non-voting delegate [except in committees], can’t vote for President, etc.  So they don’t have a lot of choice of what laws they fall under.  Imagine how much clout a non-voting delegate has…

I am quite aware that they have a single non-voting delegate to the house of representatives.  That is neither here nor there.  The residents of Guam still receive many benefits by being U.S. citizens and others that most U.S. citizens do not enjoy, such as a lack of federal taxes.  Someone who is grateful to be a citizen of the U.S. might consider that payment enough for forgoing any reparations from the Japanese.

I don’t want to sound like I’m complaining--the people being U.S. citizens is awesome.  It’s just good to be aware that when you talk about this civics stuff, states vs. territories can by like apples vs. oranges.

In which of my statements have I demonstrated an ignorance of what being a territory entails?  On the other hand, you seem to demonstrating a willful ignorance of the benefits the residents of Guam enjoy by being U.S. citizens under the direct protection of our armed forces, receiving our tax dollars in various subsidies.

Of course you don’t care because it didn’t happen to you, your family, or your friends.

I don’t care because being U.S. citizens in a U.S. territory should be payment enough.

This is the height of arrogance, like an overlord’s rhetoric against its colonized minions.

Except that Guam is free to relinquish their status as a territory and has voluntarily remained a territory through various votes.  Your idiotic rhetoric would hold up if we held them captive like a soviet satellite.  We don’t and they are free to leave our union and seek reparations directly from the Japanese if they truly believe that to be in their best interests.

These are people have proudly been under the U.S. flag since 1898.  They gave up much and only ask a little (like not dictating terms with Imperial Japan without full and due consideration of what the impact was and is on the people that decision affected).

And the U.S. hasn’t given up anything for Guam benefit?  How about the sailors and marines who gave up their lives to free Guam?  How about the continued subsidies they receive?  How about the continued presence of our military that makes their island an unattractive target for conquest?

Here is the point; please read very carefully and consider before responding RQF.  If Guam were prevented from pursuing reparations from the Japanese by the U.S. and yet received no benefit from the U.S.  They are receiving benefits by being a territory of the U.S. and holding U.S. citizenship.  If that is not enough then, by all means, they can hold a vote to sever their relationship with the U.S. which will then allow them to pursue reparations from Japan.

If Guam were prevented from pursuing reparations from the Japanese by the U.S. and yet received no benefit from the U.S.  They are receiving benefits by being a territory of the U.S. and holding U.S. citizenship.

Oops.  That should read:

If Guam were prevented from pursuing reparations from the Japanese by the U.S. and yet received no benefit from the U.S. then you might have a point.  They are receiving benefits…

I see that Guam receives a lot of tourists from Japan, 90% of all tourists.  I’d institute a special Jap tax on ‘em.

That’d show them.

TANSTAAFL

For one thing, since no one can resurrect all those dead people who caused the original problem, what choice is there?  Just say, oh well?  Because much time has gone by, just say oh well?

Um, yeah.  We should just say, “oh well,” precisely because much time has gone by.  Otherwise, I have a grievance with the people of Italy, whose Roman ancestors conquered and subjugated my German ancestors.  On the other hand, I may owe a lot of people in Europe because my Norwegian ancestors were Vikings who ravaged good portions of Europe.

Who are your ancestors RQF?  What ethnicity are your parents?  What reparations do you owe for the crimes of your forefathers?  Were they white and owned slaves?  Were they black Africans who enslaved other tribes to sell to Europeans?  Were they Italians or Germans or Japanese?  Were they of an Indian tribe that wiped out other tribes?  Perhaps you can trace your ancestry back to the Romans or the Mongolian hordes of Ghengis Kahn.  Got any conquistadors in that family tree?  The Aztecs were pretty blood thirsty, were they your ancestors?  Where should we stop?

I think he’s a native of Guam since he mentioned an hero from Guam with the same surname who recently died in Iraq.  (My regrets and respect).

However he has a Spanish surname so I would expect that his ancestors oppressed the peaceful islanders of Guam.  Plus I think we can blame him from the oppression of Spanish colonies all over the world.

If he has blood from the Native Guam people then he’s also responsible for any wars that they engaged in.

TANSTAAFL

Get reparations from Japan. No treaty can absolve them of legal culpability for the actions undertaken at the orders of their government.

Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

We don’t owe Guam anything. They collect welfare, Social Security, Medicare and a whole host of other federal goodies that they pay no taxes on.

They’re leeches and now they’re asking for more money.

If you give them anything, give them commonwealth status. Let them JOIN in the process instead of merely leeching on it.

How ironic, Guam has petitioned the Federal Government through plebiscites and direct appeals to administration after administration, and Commonwealth has repeatedly been denied.  “Not advantageous to the U.S. Government.”

Yes, there are leeches in society, some in Guam, I’m sure...but, that is so unfair to characterize everyone there as worthless as blood-sucking leeches.  All 180,000 of them.

That’s cold.

How ironic, Guam has petitioned the Federal Government through plebiscites and direct appeals to administration after administration, and Commonwealth has repeatedly been denied.

There’s nothing ironic. I was aware of this situation when I posted. Guam wants to be part of the process and for some reason, the feds mostly ignore them. If you’re looking for unfairness, look no further.

Yes, there are leeches in society, some in Guam, I’m sure...but, that is so unfair to characterize everyone there as worthless as blood-sucking leeches.  All 180,000 of them.

That’s cold.

Yes, that is cold. Why did you say it?

2H9:  I was reading some on the situation this afternoon and it appears that Japan won’t answer any reparation charges that aren’t done thru the citizens government.

So that much is true.

Of course I don’t feel bad about that.

Who said all of the people of Guam were leeches.  We were just saying that We don’t owe them reparations for what the Japanese did to the senior citizens of Guam.

TANSTAAFL

Wow. This has to be the dumbest thing ever, ever, ever! Shit. Hard to believe anyone even wastes time on crap like this.
As far as reparations go - if the primary actors can be identified and money is paid from one primary actor to the other… that’s fine. Anything besides that just creates further injustice. That much is clear as day. It takes an idiot not to see that.

Yun Chu said, “You must strictly not express in words what is very significant. Both dragon and snake are killed in one blow.”

So, it is my financial responsibility to pay for the crimes committed by Japan because they refuse to admit they committed crimes for which they are responsible?

That totally makes sense. What was I thinking?

Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

I am quite aware that they have a single non-voting delegate to the house of representatives.  That is neither here nor there.  The residents of Guam still receive many benefits by being U.S. citizens and others that most U.S. citizens do not enjoy, such as a lack of federal taxes.  Someone who is grateful to be a citizen of the U.S. might consider that payment enough for forgoing any reparations from the Japanese.

kbiel, my point is the tax system under which there is no imposition of the same federal tax we submit here in the states to the IRS is a legal requirement under U.S. law.  They are following U.S. law with regards to the tax system U.S. territories are under.  I’m not saying it’s good or bad, that’s just how it is right now.  They don’t have a choice, even if they do want to participate in the returning of taxes to the IRS.  Congress leads (hopefully with mutual consent), they follow.

In which of my statements have I demonstrated an ignorance of what being a territory entails?  On the other hand, you seem to demonstrating a willful ignorance of the benefits the residents of Guam enjoy by being U.S. citizens under the direct protection of our armed forces, receiving our tax dollars in various subsidies.

No willful ignorance here.  I know what our Federal system provides to our citizens whether in Guam or in Smalltown, S.D.  Absolutely not.  One of the great things of our American system of things is that we do take care of our people very well.  It is not perfect, but we have a good thing going in the U.S.A.

Except that Guam is free to relinquish their status as a territory and has voluntarily remained a territory through various votes.  Your idiotic rhetoric would hold up if we held them captive like a soviet satellite.  We don’t and they are free to leave our union and seek reparations directly from the Japanese if they truly believe that to be in their best interests.

Not exactly.  It’s not as easy as you make it sound to just say, “See ya!” It’s hard enough to work out any type of self-determination that has been voted for several times (Commonwealth).  I will simply respond by saying there is strong mutual benefit.  It’s good to have the U.S. out there in that part of the world in terms of the national security of both the 180,000 souls over there and ours in the 50 states and other American areas.  Also, the freedom to operate on sovereign American soil in times of emergency or contingency is so, so important.

Here is the point; please read very carefully and consider before responding RQF.  If Guam were prevented from pursuing reparations from the Japanese by the U.S. and yet received no benefit from the U.S.  They are receiving benefits by being a territory of the U.S. and holding U.S. citizenship.  If that is not enough then, by all means, they can hold a vote to sever their relationship with the U.S. which will then allow them to pursue reparations from Japan.

This is a good point, and I’m almost persuaded--except there’s still the element of whether it’s appropriate to look at the benefits of U.S. citizenship as quid pro quo for the war atrocities they went through under their occupiers.  U.S. citizenship is not so much a “reward” as it is a natural outcome of being under U.S. auspices since 1898.  They were were U.S. nationals I believe before the war until citizenship came after the enactment of the Organic Act of Guam in 1950.

I think the difference in our thinking is I believe reparations and the fact that the U.S. absolved Japan from future claims deserves to be treated in isolation and a valid issue of grievance.

How is money from me going to make anyone whole for what happened over 60 years ago.

TANSTAAFL

Um, yeah.  We should just say, “oh well,” precisely because much time has gone by.  Otherwise, I have a grievance with the people of Italy, whose Roman ancestors conquered and subjugated my German ancestors.  On the other hand, I may owe a lot of people in Europe because my Norwegian ancestors were Vikings who ravaged good portions of Europe.

Who are your ancestors RQF?  What ethnicity are your parents?  What reparations do you owe for the crimes of your forefathers?  Were they white and owned slaves?  Were they black Africans who enslaved other tribes to sell to Europeans?  Were they Italians or Germans or Japanese?  Were they of an Indian tribe that wiped out other tribes?  Perhaps you can trace your ancestry back to the Romans or the Mongolian hordes of Ghengis Kahn.  Got any conquistadors in that family tree?  The Aztecs were pretty blood thirsty, were they your ancestors?  Where should we stop?

This is probably the best argument yet I’ve seen against war reparations.  I’ll think about it. 

Yes, I am from Guam.  When the Japanese saw the returning American forces on the horizon off the shores of southern Guam, visible from the hills of my home village of Merizo, they ordered about 30 men to dig a cave and get in it.  They then threw in hand grenades and killed them.  This is just one case out of many.

The people kept their spirits up in the labor camps by singing a song called “Uncle Sam”...goes something like, “Mr. Sam, Mr. Sam, My dear Uncle Sam, won’t you please come back to Guam?” He did and we’re free today.

That’s it...I’m out!

When the Japanese saw the returning American forces on the horizon off the shores of southern Guam, visible from the hills of my home village of Merizo, they ordered about 30 men to dig a cave and get in it.  They then threw in hand grenades and killed them.  This is just one case out of many.

Oh Gee, where do I send my check.

Seriously that’s terrible, but how does a check from me make that up?

TANSTAAFL

This is a good point, and I’m almost persuaded--except there’s still the element of whether it’s appropriate to look at the benefits of U.S. citizenship as quid pro quo for the war atrocities they went through under their occupiers.  U.S. citizenship is not so much a “reward” as it is a natural outcome of being under U.S. auspices since 1898.

I am not saying that citizenship is a quid pro quo for reparations from Japan, I am saying that it should be good enough for the residents of Guam without having to petition our government for even more money.  If the residents of Guam want to negotiate directly with the Japanese, then let them relinquish their U.S. citizenship and territorial status.  Otherwise, live with the decisions of the duly appointed government without whining.

The same treaty with Japan also prevents my family from petitioning the Tokyo for reparations due to the loss of our family members in WWII.  Should we also petition congress for reparations?

Undebatable drivel. Seriously. Who would even try? DUMBEST THING EVA!

Yun Chu said, “You must strictly not express in words what is very significant. Both dragon and snake are killed in one blow.”

When the Japanese saw the returning American forces on the horizon off the shores of southern Guam, visible from the hills of my home village of Merizo, they ordered about 30 men to dig a cave and get in it.  They then threw in hand grenades and killed them.  This is just one case out of many.

Oh Gee, where do I send my check.

Seriously that’s terrible, but how does a check from me make that up?

No amount of money will make up for that.  I can’t answer your question.  I think my share of that $126 million to pay for reparations might be something like 1/100ths of half a penny (which should rightfully be be paid for by Japan if everything in this world happens like it’s supposed to).  Nevertheless, que sera sera.

I am not saying that citizenship is a quid pro quo for reparations from Japan, I am saying that it should be good enough for the residents of Guam without having to petition our government for even more money.  If the residents of Guam want to negotiate directly with the Japanese, then let them relinquish their U.S. citizenship and territorial status.  Otherwise, live with the decisions of the duly appointed government without whining.

I like your other argument better than this one. 

It’s very easy to say what’s “good enough” to shut up the restless natives.  In retrospect, U.S. citizenship was already forthcoming (less than 10 years later).  Once again, because the people and the land already belonged to the U.S. (since 1898), citizenship seemed--and history bore it out--a natural outcome.  It was just a matter of time.

Us against Them seems to dominate this line of argument.  “Those” people can just chuck their U.S. citizenship for the sake of direct war reparation dealings with Japan.  I don’t think the people of Guam are that shallow.  America is in their blood...it really is.

I don’t care if our treaty absolved the Japanese of their responsibility to pay reparations

Of course you don’t care because it didn’t happen to you, your family, or your friends.

RQF, you’ve been exceedingly civil.  Most disagreements deteriorate to expletive-filled sniping by now.

I quote the above because, lest you forget, many of us had family that were killed on Guam.  It wasn’t a parasol-toting tapdance for US forces, either.

RQF - I think my share of that $126 million to pay for reparations might be something like 1/100ths of half a penny (which should rightfully be be paid for by Japan if everything in this world happens like it’s supposed to).

There are no reparations. Payment ended with these men and every Jap they killed. Let it rest. A heavy toll was paid in Guam and you’re dishonoring those fighting men by this talk of reparations. Please stop disrespecting those men.

No amount of money will make up for that.  I can’t answer your question.  I think my share of that $126 million to pay for reparations might be something like 1/100ths of half a penny (which should rightfully be be paid for by Japan if everything in this world happens like it’s supposed to)

Let’s see 126 million divided by 170,000 people of Guam.

If it’s divied up equally it would be $741 apiece.  Of course it won’t be divided up evenly but that sets the scale. 

On the other hand Wiki says that 90% of the tourists in Guam are from Japan.  Why don’t you just beat them up, it makes as much sense as this.

What did I do to owe you reparations for something that someone else did to someone else.

TANSTAAFL

I don’t care if our treaty absolved the Japanese of their responsibility to pay reparations

Of course you don’t care because it didn’t happen to you, your family, or your friends.

RQF, you’ve been exceedingly civil.  Most disagreements deteriorate to expletive-filled sniping by now.

I quote the above because, lest you forget, many of us had family that were killed on Guam.  It wasn’t a parasol-toting tapdance for US forces, either.

I am--as are most people of Guam--the last one to ever forget the brave men who stormed by beaches of Guam to retake the island.  It might sound like hyperbole or an exaggeration or even old-fashioned (especially in light of some of what’s going on today), but most Guamanians and native Chamorros hold the American soldier, sailor, marine, and airman in the highest regard.  Many of them once were or are in the U.S. Armed Forces right now.

The liberation of Guam was certainly not a walk in the park.  What happened back then is never taken for granted by those who know our history.

Guam has suffered a few typhoons.  I take it that the US helped out the people of Guam because that’s what we do?

TANSTAAFL

On the other hand Wiki says that 90% of the tourists in Guam are from Japan.  Why don’t you just beat them up, it makes as much sense as this.

What did I do to owe you reparations for something that someone else did to someone else.

I really do have a life...so I’m trying to trail off from this long conversation. 

You didn’t do anything--it was our government that did what it did (absolve Japan). 

There are so many ridiculous things going on with regard to our tax money and how it’s spent.  I cringe every time I hear about our precious dollars spent on researching the love lives of prairie dogs, but there you go.  Or the famous $700 hammers or toilet seats.

As for the Japanese tourists, well, good for them that they can come and enjoy the sun and beaches and spend tourist dollars there.  It’s the least they can do.

There are so many ridiculous things going on with regard to our tax money and how it’s spent.  I cringe every time I hear about our precious dollars spent on researching the love lives of prairie dogs, but there you go.  Or the famous $700 hammers or toilet seats.

Or war reparations for the people we liberated.

So you don’t have a problem with the Japanese, you just want our money by proxy.

TANSTAAFL

Guam has suffered a few typhoons.  I take it that the US helped out the people of Guam because that’s what we do?

It’s debatable based on the national response to Katrina, but that’s just America helping Americans.

Or war reparations for the people we liberated.

So you don’t have a problem with the Japanese, you just want our money by proxy.

Whistler, I hear what you’re saying and what you’ve been saying...it’s a salient point. 

As I’ve also been trying to say all day (literally!), is that the best way to explain how people have been able to reconcile in their mind of the appropriateness of petitioning Congress for reparations is because it was the U.S. who let Japan off the hook.

That’s the opinion of some; I may be changing some of my views on this based on some of the good comments here, but we shall see about that as this healthy debate continues.

Gotta go!  Take care.

It’s debatable based on the national response to Katrina, but that’s just America helping Americans.

Ten years ago we had a major disaster here in Grand Forks ND.  The bottom line is that we received in total government aid about $10,000 per person. $500,000,000 divided by 50,000.

Nobody got Katrina money, nobody!  It ain’t about need it’s about political greed in that case.

On the other hand I can see in an half way way how you think that the government is responsible.  On the other hand, I always personalize it.  “Why should I have to pay to you?” Because you see, the “government” doesn’t have it’s own money, it’s ours.

I wish more people would think that way.

By the way I hope you can stay around.  If you notice Rob our host has these readers’ blogs.  You can sign up and make your own two cents heard.  You can even post about why you think Guam should get reparations.  I won’t agree with you.

By the way, sorry if I’ve seemed a bit snippish.  We’ve had a whole bunch of victims hanging out here lately and they’ve been getting on my nerves.

TANSTAAFL

Ten years ago we had a major disaster here in Grand Forks ND.  The bottom line is that we received in total government aid about $10,000 per person. $500,000,000 divided by 50,000.

Was it a flood?  That’s too bad.  $500m for 50,000 is pretty good, I would think, because the law of averages probably means not all 50,000 needed direct assistance.

Nobody got Katrina money, nobody!  It ain’t about need it’s about political greed in that case.

The bad thing about that is it created a disaster on top of the actual disaster that happened.  For shame, huh?

On the other hand I can see in an half way way how you think that the government is responsible.  On the other hand, I always personalize it.  “Why should I have to pay to you?” Because you see, the “government” doesn’t have it’s own money, it’s ours.

I wish more people would think that way.

I am with you.  Even though I live in an eastern state that is SO liberal and the governor and General Assembly are so bent on taxing the daylights out of everyone, I am of that midwestern way of thinking...fiscal conservatism (yes, my advocacy of the Guam reparations may fly in the face of that, but as conservative as I am, I do believe there’s such a thing--on the rare occasion--as “compassionate conservatism”...LOL!).

By the way I hope you can stay around.  If you notice Rob our host has these readers’ blogs.  You can sign up and make your own two cents heard.  You can even post about why you think Guam should get reparations.  I won’t agree with you.

I just may do that...thanks.  I never heard of this blog until the other day.  Good stuff.

By the way, sorry if I’ve seemed a bit snippish.  We’ve had a whole bunch of victims hanging out here lately and they’ve been getting on my nerves.

Not a problem, and thank you!  I dislike Victimology just as much as the next guy.  I just tried to hold my own as far as stating my opinions, defending them, and listening and responding to what others here had to say--hopefully I wasn’t being snippy. 

Later!

Was it a flood?  That’s too bad.  $500m for 50,000 is pretty good, I would think, because the law of averages probably means not all 50,000 needed direct assistance.

Pretty much the whole town at least lost their basement.  Some lost everything.  Direct assistance amounted to about $2000 per household and low interest loans which was not in the 500 million figure.

The money they were talking about for Katrina amounted to over $400,000 per person in New Orleans.  I’m just pointing out that you were probably treated closer to us than Katrina, but I think most of the Hurricanes and that have been on our scale not Katrina as far as federal dollars.

Most of the money went to the governments which in some cases they spent well and in others they didn’t.  By and large they probably deserve a b+ or A- to be fair.

Once again I’m sorry for being a little touchy about entitlements.

TANSTAAFL