Say Anything Blog

Rob~
Link is missing in the story.

Ellinas~

I suppose at Christmas you speak out against anyone with more than one lightbulb on their house, right? “What do they think, they love Christmas 5000x more than me?” If the man wants 50 flags, go for it.  It’s a small tribute to his love for this country.

Btw, I have two flags on my house.  So he’s only 25 times more patriotic than me…

Mr Zelek was looking for attention and he got it.
If one flag does not show your love for your country, then fifty will
not either. Fifty flags?  Does that make him fourty nine times
more patriotic then someone who only displayes one flag?

ellinas: Your ‘point’ such as it is, is inane and misses the actual point entirely. Clearly, the issue is freedom of speech, not patriotism. It is interesting to me that his display seems to bother you so much. As to your ‘patriot arithmetic’, yes, maybe it does make him 49 times more patriotic. Can you disprove that beyond a reasonable doubt?

However, if you want to go there, I’m willing to bet that this gentleman’s patriotism is far, far greater than yours… Call it an educated guess based upon examples of each individual’s behavior.

Freedom of speech and attention seeking are two different things.
The gentleman in question had a choice. If he read the
homeowners association rules and still purchased a home
where he felt he could not properly display his love for
America then he is bound by those rules. If he did not read
the rules than he is an idiot.

Christmas is more effectively displayed in the eyes of God
by doing the christian thing, and not how many light bulbs one has in their front yard. The same can be said about patriotism: Its is not how many flags one displayes but what he does for his country.

These HOA’s are anti-freedom, and the people who choose to live under them may as well be nazi’s.  The whole idea is about as unamerican as you can get—they’d ban black people if they thought they could get away with it.

ellinas, freedom of speech goes hand in hand with seeking attention. One doesn’t speak to the air in front of them. You are arguing two different points entirely....Yes, there are probably rules in his given community....but personally I think those people are idiots when they pull crap like this. When someone puts even one flag in their yard I think it’s pretty lame, but I wouldn’t in any way want to hinder their right to do so. Same for christmas lights....let people enjoy their space for crying out loud, it’s a no brainer.

These HOA’s are anti-freedom, and the people who choose to live under them may as well be nazi’s.

Oh come on Marty.  Home Owner’s Associations can go over the line as any organization can, but for the most part these organizations exist to keep a certain look to a community.  Want to paint your house pink?  Probably can’t do it unless you live in the south were that sort of thing is more normal.  Want to let your lawn grow wild and keep your front porch cluttered with old furniture?  Probably can’t do it.  These are the types of behavior and decisions that the HOA’s reign in.  Part of it is to keep the neighborhood looking nice with a certain look, and part of it is to protect the property values of the neighborhood.

of course that’s what they’re for likwidshoe...and yeah, marty’s a bit extreme about it....but really, what do you care if someone paints their house pink or piles garbage on their porch? If it starts to stink, tell them to clean it up. If their yard becomes an overgrown fire hazard, tell them to mow it. If they ignore you on either count, file a complaint with the city and you’ll win. 2 of 3 neighbors got piles of crap in their yards right now but I don’t give two squats...they’re very nice people, and my area remains crisp and clean. Screw real estate investors; they are a bane to society increasing the cost of living for everyone. Whatever happened to buying a house so you could live in it? The city can and will take care of genuine problem properties.

When one does not comform to society’s norms, one is an outcast. Regardless of your feelings about HOA, Mr Zelek entered into a contract and agreed to the terms and conditions of that association. A contract is the cornerstone of the capitalist system of transactions. Example: when you get a credit card you agree to the terms and conditions imposed upon you. The choise is clear: If you dont like it, then go elsewhere were you might find the conditons more to your liking.

Screw real estate investors; they are a bane to society increasing the cost of living for everyone.

Well I wasn’t even thinking of real estate investors.  I was thinking of everyday normal people who own property.  Having neighbors with garbage in the yard (for example) decreases the property value of the surrounding area.  But what have you got against real estate investors to begin with?  Don’t like capitalism?

likwidshoe, I have nothing against capitalism, nor do I against real estate investors per se. Where do you personally draw the line between a profitable capitalist venture and an act of greed?

Where do you personally draw the line between a profitable capitalist venture and an act of greed?

What?  Where does greed fit in here?  Irrelevant question.

...my initial comment wasn’t about capitalism...

You talked about real estate investors saying that they are a “bane to society”.  I took that to be a slap against the capitalist home market.

...my comment was about greed and its toll on the cost of living.

And so I ask again: where does greed fit in here?

I’m asking, if the concept of greed isn’t beyond your understanding, where you believe it exists in capitalism.

When it tramples on someone else’s freedom.  Any other time it’s a personal sin and one I can’t call.  Why did you want to know this?  Where does it fit in with the story or what we were talking about?

not an irrelevant question...my initial comment wasn’t about capitalism....my comment was about greed and its toll on the cost of living. You think in “isms” all the time?  I’m asking, if the concept of greed isn’t beyond your understanding, where you believe it exists in capitalism. You brought up capitalism, not me.

if fits because you suggest worry of property values. I know you sincerely believe in personal freedom...so do I. Related to an individual’s property, I don’t believe the color of one neighbor’s house should determine the value of another’s. If the given collective’s thinking is such that it does, then that collective is misguided (speaking generally, I’m about to fall asleep here) especially in relation to personal freedoms. I’m not against home owner’s associations, I’m against stupid judgement calls like the case above. I find it much more valuable to me to have personable neighbors than lame-o’s who live in a nice house, and my experience as being tolerant of “outcast” lifestyles that ellinas speaks of has proven nothing but beneficial to me professionally and otherwise. You say greed is a personal call...I believe that. I also believe “nice property” is a personal call, and one I wouldn’t make for someone else either unless my space were being intruded upon. You are talking about an indivudual’s most personal and “free” space in the world, not surface area in dollars.

Related to an individual’s property, I don’t believe the color of one neighbor’s house should determine the value of another’s.

But it does to some extent and that makes sense. And why wouldn’t it? Your property can be a mansion, but it isn’t going to be going for such a high commanding rate in a low rate ghetto surrounded by trash and crime.  Same kind of logic.  Except in these cases the HOA’s exist to prevent a property value decline.

If the given collective’s thinking is such that it does, then that collective is misguided (speaking generally, I’m about to fall asleep here) especially in relation to personal freedoms.

I disagree.  I wouldn’t want to own property in a nice neighborhood and then watch my neighbor paint his house pink.  Or add hubcaps as decoration.  Or move out the old furniture onto the porch.  That lowers my property value because most people don’t want to live next to that.  That’s why these HOA’s get formed in the first place.

I’m not against home owner’s associations, I’m against stupid judgement calls like the case above.

Agreed.

I also believe “nice property” is a personal call, and one I wouldn’t make for someone else either unless my space were being intruded upon. You are talking about an indivudual’s most personal and “free” space in the world, not surface area in dollars.

As do I.  At the same time I realize that if I own property where a HOA is de facto law in the area, it must be abided by.  Those kinds of agreements by definition limit certain freedoms.

I’m not against home owner’s associations, I’m against stupid judgement calls like the case above.

I’m against both.  I support freedom, tolerance, diversity, and being neighborly.  HOA’s choke freedom, mandate intolerance, enforce homogenuity, and extract nieghborliness under the threat of litigation.  Communists!

Marty Said,
July 4, 2005 @ 8:04 am

I’m not against home owner’s associations, I’m against stupid judgement calls like the case above.

I’m against both. I support freedom, tolerance, diversity, and being neighborly. HOA’s choke freedom, mandate intolerance, enforce homogenuity, and extract nieghborliness under the threat of litigation. Communists!

Then Marty call your state and federal legislators and have them do away with such a horrible communist concept as HOA

ellinas: “ The choise is clear: If you dont like it, then go elsewhere were you might find the conditons more to your liking.”

You still have failed to address the central issues here regarding free speech. Facististic dismissals like the above notwithstanding, you come off as clearly disliking what the man in question is saying. It is a different point entirely whether the man is in violation of his HOA agreement, and it is an elementary assumption to make that he is based on what is being reported. There is not much to discuss there. 

But, assuming you believe in free speech as provided by the US constitution, what is your *real* personal issue with what the man is saying?  How much expression of patriotism would you dictate is enough, and how much is too much? Provide counts and amounts please.

Free speach ends where somebody else’s rights begin. I dont realy care how Mr Zelek expresses his patriotism. What i do care about is his ability to abide by a contract he made with the HOA. If some provisions of that contract bother him, then by all means change them. There is a mechanism to do just that.

Dont missunderstand me. I dont like HOA’S. But I do believe that Mr Zelek could have drawn attention to himself by other means. Like starting a fund or organization to do away with the purported evils of the HOA’S.

The average citizen does not have the power to fight a bussiness. The HOA is a bussiness controlled by a management company.
Besides would any of you defend Mr Zeleks freedom of speech if he displayed 50 or even one flag from a terrorist state?

if any of you had read the linked article you’d know he wasn’t in violation of any HOA clause...so really it’s more a featurette about some dumb boardmemeber or the like coming down on the guy impersonally.

likwidshoe: “surrounded by trash and crime” who’s talking about crime? You don’t want your neighbor to do this and you don’t want your neighbor to do that...and your reasoning is over the value of your land. Here’s what I don’t want my neighbor to do: impede my freedoms. I get what you’re saying...homes in a neighborhood full of junked cars in every yard are going to worth less than ones without (heaven forbid someone can buy a nice house cheap!)....but this is where the collective is misguided, and the scope of the collective spans nationally amongst people like yourself who have placed value on such things, incidentally people who are generally a lot wealthier to begin with. Do people have the right to collectively purchase land and decide, as a majority, what is best for the minority of land owners in the area as far as how one maintains their space beyond obstructing the safety and freedoms of those around them? Why more beurocracy like that? An HOA doesn’t even represent a majority per se anyway! The potential is larger spans of land with a proportionally smaller majority (again, HOA doesn’t even = majority, but we’ll humor the idea) dictating the APPEARANCE of the minority. Your reasoning is the value of the land...do you see how this is not only power to beurocratic thinking but also the seeds of greed? Beyond land value, you could mention due respect to others in the neighborhood. Again, this is completely subjective. I maintain the house in which I live very well (I don’t own it) even making permanent improvements to the land much to the owner’s delight. Why? It’s my space and I want it to be nice! And then I’m a happy person, and when my neighbors can do the same they are happy people, and we can all get together and have a good time. To me, that is a nice community. Hopefully you get the drift. Have you explored much of the US? The world is not a big city by any means.

I’ll state my own somewhat-hypocricy on the matter: I don’t want more fast food places or apartment buildings in the area I live...and I’m all in favor of city council putting strict limits on development. A neighboring town has done so, and as a result, the town is one of the friendliest I’ve ever had the pleasure to neighbor. But this is at government level, not a group of homeonwners telling other homeowners what they can and can’t do wtih their hard earned land.

I would support his freedom to wear a klan robe to the gas station. I’d laugh if he got beat up though. ellinas, are you pro or con HOA? If the average citizen can’t fight a business (bad) yet the HOA is a business (bad) why are you in favor of the HOA (bad business) telling this guy what to do?

I honestly don’t know enough about how HOA’s are formed, and they no doubt vary greatly from area to area...I’m sure I’d be in complete agreement with the ideas maintained in given communities vs. others, so I should just shut up. But let me fix up and decorate my house how I want; I promise not to get in anybody’s way and I’ll let you do the same without hassle.

ah...I see. You confused things by saying the guy coulda shoulda expressed himself differently....and continue to confuse things by asking about his right to wave “terrorist” flags when the (agreeably dumb in this case) HOA would tell him not to. If my neighbor did, I’d hope mebby to be invited over one day for some authentic well-cooked terrorist nation food. Other than that, I honestly wouldn’t care one bit. I’d hope they were nice people.

Carl B. I dont like HOA’S.
Nobody yet answered my question which is very specific and narrow;: Would any of you defend Mr Zeleks freedom of speech if he displayed 50 or even one flag from a terrorist state?

The question was about freedom of speech. The question I’m posing is if any of you would argue for his freedom to speech with the same passion and advocate for him with the same fervor if he was flying a terrorist state’s flag?  Yes or no will suffice.

Carl B. said, An HOA doesn’t even represent a majority per se anyway!

Actually they usually do.  They are formed by like minded home owners who want to keep up the appearance of their neighborhood and want to keep or increase the monetary value of their huge investment.  That’s not to say that everybody will always agree.  Life is never like that to begin with, but it needed to be said.  It has nothing to do with “seeds of greed”, but merely the wish to protect the biggest investment most people make in their lives.  I don’t mind HOA’s as long as they aren’t beholden to a lot of rules and regulations and as long as they are run by the community rather than a hard to reach bureaucracy that both you and I dislike.

Have you explored much of the US? The world is not a big city by any means.

I don’t know why you’d assume that I’ve stayed put Carl.  At least that is how it reads.  To answer:  I have visited much of the U.S. and have lived for at least a year or more in seven different states.  I’ve lived in quite a few regions, have a lot mish-mashed accents coming together to make my own unique voice, and in different kinds of cities.  I’ve been in mostly middle class homes, a couple of upper middle class, one apartment with my long gone ex-girlfriend, and I’ve lived with different people in different kinds of living arrangements.  Out of all of that I have a few preferences that I’ve come to like.  I enjoy living in the suburbs about 30 to 40 highway miles away from a big city.  To me that gives you the benefit of the big city money and experiences while allowing you to mostly live, work and play in the suburbs.  (I only consider it “sprawl” if you have to travel to the city everyday for work.) I like close nit communities where the neighbors watch out for each other and keep an eye on the neighborhood kids.

ellinas asked, The question was about freedom of speech. The question I’m posing is if any of you would argue for his freedom to speech with the same passion and advocate for him with the same fervor if he was flying a terrorist state’s flag? Yes or no will suffice.

No.  There is freedom of speech within limits with these organizations and you yourself has said as much.  Flying the country’s flag is a bit different than your radical example of flying a “terrorist states’s” flag and I doubt many of us here would defend your example as fiercely if at all.

Yes

with the same passion? no, but the right would still be his

So far the ones thay said no have proven that they only defend speech that is to their liking.

So far the ones thay said no have proven that they only defend speech that is to their liking.

Yeah that’s right ellinas.  We’re talking about neighborhoods here.  What did you expect?  Don’t look for a free speech argument because this isn’t the place.

Ooops!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! None the less it boils down to freedom and freedom of speech. But likwidshoe got to hand it to you.

Regarding supporting the free speech of someone flying the flags of a ‘terrorist’ state, ellinas said: “The question was about freedom of speech. The question I’m posing is if any of you would argue for his freedom to speech with the same passion and advocate for him with the same fervor if he was flying a terrorist state’s flag? Yes or no will suffice.”

Yes.

If my neighbor were flying the flag of Saddam Hussein’s Iraq I would not like it, but it is their right to do so. I would like to have a reasoned debate with the person(s) just to try to truly understand their warped mindset, but if they did not want to participate in the responsibility side of free speech (open debate), that is ok by me as well, and in no way abridges their right to fly Saddam’s flag.

Ignoring the HOA portion of this discussion for a second, it seems from your comments that your issue is with what the man was expressing and how more so than the fact that he is in probable violation of a contract he signed, or the relative value of HOAs. Failure to perform to the terms of a contract is boring legal trivia. Putting fifty flags on your porch is like waving a red-white-and-blue flame in front of left-wing moths. It attracts them like flies (pardon the mixed metaphor). 

Here is your first post:

ellinas: “Mr Zelek was looking for attention and he got it.
If one flag does not show your love for your country, then fifty will
not either. Fifty flags? Does that make him fourty nine times
more patriotic then someone who only displayes one flag?”

Your “patriot arithmetic” as a rhetorical structure is weak. What if the one flag is the size of his house? How do you compute his patriotic quotient then? The latter question is rhetorical, because it doesn’t really matter.

As to your analogy to celebrating Christmas as well:

“Christmas is more effectively displayed in the eyes of God
by doing the christian thing, and not how many light bulbs one has in their front yard. The same can be said about patriotism: Its is not how many flags one displayes but what he does for his country.”

Your first statement above is a lightweight attempt at claiming righteousness. Come on, Christmas lights are a *part* of the celebration of Christmas in the American culture, certainly not the whole of it. And, when it comes to that part, the person putting up what you and I may think of as “too many lights” may be doing so for any number of worthy reasons. Beyond that, they may be “doing the Christian thing” as well. You certainly have no way to know their inner feelings or private actions. You are stereotyping using fallacious profiles defined by the more ignorant and intolerant on the left.

I don’t understand why you can not just be tolerant of diverse expressions of the Christmas spirit - and patriotism, for that matter.

Frankly, those I’ve encountered that get all worked up by PDPs (public displays of patriotism) generally are of the thinking that the only real patriotism is dissent. And by virtue of disagreeing with the current administration, one is patriotic. Anything else is ignorant, slavish worship of the Bushitler regime.

Here is Thomsas Paine on patriotism:
-- “These are the times that try men’s souls. The summer soldier and the sunshine patriot will, in this crisis, shrink from the service of their county; but he that stands it now, deserves the love and thanks of man and woman. Tyranny like hell is not easily conquered yet we have this consolation with us, the harder the conflict, the more glorious the triumph. What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly; it is dearness only that gives everything its value.”

If their is a major canonical unit of measure of American patriotism it is quarts of blood. Beyond that, patriotism can be expressed in many diverse ways. You say: “Its is not how many flags one displayes but what he does for his country”. Maybe he is trying to impress upon people what depth of feeling he has for his country, to inspire them to greater feelings and acts of patriotism as well. There is nothing wrong with that. Inspiration of others toward being truly more patriotic (in the Thomas Paine sense, not the Ward Churchill sense) is noble and to be adimired.
It may well be no more complex than the gentleman’s freedom of speech regarding his patriotism is best expressed by him with fifty flags. I suggest you learn to just be tolerant of diverse expressions of freedom, and PDPs like this won’t bother you so much.

You have done a good job responding to my questions.
But if’s and maybe’s dont cut it. You are assuming too much.
You or I realy dont know Mr Zelek ( maybe you do).
To me patriotism is love for one’s country, and not necessarily ones goverment. People love their country in many ways.  Dissent is not a meassure of patriotism, but merely a exercize in democratic values. By the way I am not liberal or democrat, nor conservative or republican. I am an indepentant soul who loves and admires the free american spirit, and the hard working and law abiding AMERICANS.

Our Homeowners assoc. told us the fence i proposed to be intalled was not approved. We live on a corner lot and the rulebook says that corner lots can not have the fence on the side yard. It must sit even with the house. Othe residents who live on corner lots have ignored the homeowners and put up fences anyway. To my knowledge they havnt done a thing. Should I up fence. I think so,