Hoeven’s Discriminatory Tax Scheme

Last week Dustin Gawrylow wrote a post about North Dakota’s discriminatory tax scheme. I thought his point was pretty much right on but some didn’t.
Our loyal Hoeven apologist claimed that since renters don’t pay property taxes they aren’t paying their share. That begs the question, do renters pay property taxes?
The simple answer is of course they do! Property taxes are an expense to the landlord and are passed along to the renter just like every other expense the landlord has. After all the landlord has to pass along all expenses in order to make a profit. Without a profit there wouldn’t be any reason for that landlord to provide a place to live.
But what’s going to happen when the landlord gets his property tax rebate? Is he going to reduce rents to pass that along? My personal feeling after talking to local slumlords is no. The landlord is going to keep the money for a number of valid business reasons.
It’s a big expense when someone moves out of an apartment. Usually there’s a lot of refurbing that needs to be done to make the unit rentable again. Typically the security deposit only picks up a portion of that expense. The other thing is that if the unit sits empty for a month or two it’s impossible to make that up with a rent increase. My favorite slumlord says that very often when he raises the rent the tenants often start looking and find another place to live.
So it would be a very valid decision to keep the money thinking that you’ll hold off on later rent increases. It’s true that the renters might eventually see some savings, but then it’s right now that they need the money. Why should the wait years to maybe get a break from being overtaxed (which is what a surplus is.)
Another reason for the landlords not to pass along the savings is that they don’t know how long they’ll get this break. The North Dakota legislature approved it for their returns filed in 2008 and 2009. How could you count on getting it in the future. The way the governor is increasing spending the state’s going to run short of money sooner than later. How do you think they’ll make up the revenue? They sure won’t reduce the rate of growth of any state programs.
But then I got to thinking just how many landlords are going to even qualify for the tax break to eventually pass it along? How many landlords live out of state and are ineligible for the tax break? Certainly there will no savings to pass along in this case.
Also this tax scheme has a cap of $1000 whether its for an individual or for a corporation. So if the landlord has more than a few units he might very well not get a very big rebate at all. (One thousand dollars spread around 50 rental units is pretty pathetic). In fact if he has a large house he might not get any break for his rental property.
So the smaller landlord might get a break, but the large ones won’t. It seems to me under those conditions that the competitive situation won’t make the smaller landlord cut his rent. Since the big guys are passing along their full property tax the smaller guy will charge the same amount he would without the tax break.
All in all I think we can safely say that renters pay their share of property taxes and state income taxes but will not get a darned thing out of Hoeven’s tax relief.
This is what happens when the state tries to fix something that it’s not responsible for. We’ve got a real problem with out of control locals spending too much money. Expecting the state to bail them out for their foolishness and meanness (which is what these property tax increases have amounted to) is a flawed idea and it results in discriminatory fixes.

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  • http://proof-proofpositive.blogspot.com/ proof_positive

    People with big nices pay more taxes

    Big nices? Is that like “Big Love“? Is that code for “conservative” as opposed to “Big Nasty” liberals?

  • http://SayAnythingBlog.com The_Whistler_ofnd

    I’m against any progressive taxation in that it encourages people to vote to take others people money and spend it on them.

    Of course the money doesn’t even get to those that it’s supposed to help since the bureaucracy keeps it.

    Then the “poor” are for higher taxes yet (on other people of course.)

    It doesn’t take that much to provide for needed services as long as theirs no waste and no unnecessary spending.

  • http://SayAnythingBlog.com The_Whistler_ofnd

    In GF you can find out how much anyone pays for property taxes on the county’s website.

  • http://www.freerepublicans.com/ FreeRepublicans.com

    Brenda,

    Ask your landlord what he/she pays in property taxes.

    Find out how many square feet is in the building and what total yearly rent intake is.

    Then do some math.

    An average owner-occupied house in ND is worth $99,700 and the owner pays $1,400 in property taxes (about $116/month).

    I would wager that the property tax bill for your apartment between the 3 of you is in that range which is about $35/month for each of you.

    My monthly water bill is $38/month.

    So yes, water does cost more than property taxes.

  • george

    Whistler,

    Thank you for the kind words.

    I recognize that renters pay property tax indirectly. Still, no matter how you slice it, we property tax payers still pay far more in total taxes than the non property tax payers. The indirect property tax renters pay is no where near what property owners pay. As a result, we are subsidizing their share of police, schools, etc.

    You want proof? Just compare your state tax bill to your property tax bill and tell me which is higher. Then remember, we pay both.

  • Troy_Pineri

    I still don’t quite understand this rebate. I owned a duplex from March of ’05 until March of ’07. I sold it this year. However I use my 06 tax return for the break this year. So I am getting the money this year, I don’t own the house, and where are the tenants that used to live there?

  • Brenda

    Well, it would be very difficult to buy a small house for $510 a month. You can’t really even get a trailer for that. I’m not ready to commit to a house or even a trailer in any case, which is why I am still in apartments.

    Anyway, yes, I am paying for a share of the property expenses, but my rent also includes my share of water, heat (which isn’t cheap this time of year by any means), maintenance of the lawn, building and driveway, electricity for the outside outlets to plug cars in, electricity for the garage, electricity for the hallways and laundry rooms, maybe sewage (I can’t remember what ND does for that. In Minnesota I had to pay that myself), insurance which also can’t be cheap, wages for the employees of the rental company and other overhead, and then of course, they have a little bit in there for profit. Those are a lot of expenses for our $510 to cover, and I think this would be a lot to cover on my own if this was all going to my own house (minus the overhead, I suppose). I don’t know how much of the $510 would be property tax, but I’d venture to say that not a larger percentage of it is. It’s definitely not a lot of my measly $170 share.

  • Brenda

    I will certainly try, but most of the “chain” apartment companies aren’t too accomodating if you have a complaint or need repairs, let alone something like that that might show where they are gouging you.

  • Brenda

    Renters don’t pay near as much in property tax as actual property owners, however. I pay a grand total of $170 per month for my apartment (split with my other two roommates, of course) and that includes water and heat. I’d bet that most people probably pay more just in their property taxes each month than I pay in my entire month’s rent. In fact, my cable, internet and phone alone is almost more than what I pay in rent.

    I also have a question about progressive taxes. Property is essentially an asset, just as income, savings, stocks, bonds, etc. are all assets. Why should people with property be punished for their success and investment by paying higher taxes than those who don’t? Isn’t that kind of progressive?

  • http://SayAnythingBlog.com The_Whistler_ofnd

    Suppose you three got together and bought a house. All you had for the mortgage and taxes was $510. Would you find a house the size of your apartment for that price?

    People with big nices pay more taxes than people with small not so nice houses. Generally starter apartments are smaller and not so nice.

    Anyway the landlord pays property taxes on your apartment at the same valuation and tax as a private house. That means if you’re paying your rent you’re paying your share of property taxes.

  • http://SayAnythingBlog.com The_Whistler_ofnd

    Don’t renters also pay income, property and SALES tax? Generally you would think that they earn less money, but then a lot of apartments aren’t that much cheaper than my mortgage.

    I don’t believe in progressive taxes, but I also don’t believe in head taxes which seems to be the only way to make renters pay as much as you do.

  • http://www.freerepublicans.com/ FreeRepublicans.com

    Renters don’t pay near as much in property tax as actual property owners, however. I pay a grand total of $170 per month for my apartment (split with my other two roommates, of course) and that includes water and heat.

    1st, it’s highly doubtful that your landlord doesn’t pass his property taxes on to his tenants. Unless he’s creating a way to claim losses on his rental property, he’d be a fool not to pass all his overhead costs on to you – property tax is just another overhead cost of doing business.

    2nd, what you pay per month has no bearing on anything. Property tax is a “sunk cost” of doing business.

    I’d bet that most people probably pay more just in their property taxes each month than I pay in my entire month’s rent.

    If you feel guilty, you can always go make a donation to your local tax collector.

    Or maybe you should give your land lord more cause you think you’ve got too good of a deal.

    That statement is just too silly.

    Property is essentially an asset, just as income, savings, stocks, bonds, etc. are all assets. Why should people with property be punished for their success and investment by paying higher taxes than those who don’t? Isn’t that kind of progressive?

    Unfortunately the tax code is so cumbersome that every you listed is categorized differently.

    The reason property is taxed is because historically the ability to settle down in one place was viewed as a luxury.

    The more you tax income, the longer it takes for people to afford property. The longer it takes for people to afford property, the less people are sharing the cost of paying for a community.

    Local control matters. Control is based on funding. If you want to retain local control, you’re going to have to pay for services locally.

  • Brenda

    Oh, no. I’m not feeling guilty by any means. I’m just saying that property owners more than likely pay more direct property taxes than I pay indirect taxes. I’m simply not so worried about getting relief back when there are others who are burdened a bit more by taxes.

  • http://www.freerepublicans.com/ FreeRepublicans.com

    George,

    If you can’t do the time, don’t do the crime.

    If you can’t pay the tax, don’t buy the house.

    Your asking people who don’t own property to bail out people who do own property and that’s flat wrong.

    Conservatives don’t judge people based on how little or much tax they pay, you’re lost in some world where everyone pays the same no matter their lifestyle. That will never work.

    Progressive taxes are wrong because they punishing success.

    People should be taxed on the resources they take out of the economy, not the labor they put into the economy.

  • GregB999

    As a renter (low income, on disability, but going to school), I do get a property tax rebate every year. It’s something they have set up for lower to middle income, the rebate being less with the more you make (and have paid, typical Minnesota…)

    This is all supposition on my part: How it works is that at the end of the year, I get a form from my landlord that shows how much I paid in rent for the year and that’s multiplied by 19%. That’s the assumed property tax. I get a form that I fill out and being that I’m on social security disability, I get a deductions on the amount I of money I get throughout the year. I then get to figure out, based on that amount and the amount of property tax paid, the amount of the rebate I’ll get. The rebate amount varies from year to year, changing as the state’s financial status changes.

  • http://SayAnythingBlog.com The_Whistler_ofnd

    By the way I referred to Hoeven’s apologist showing up here in the post. I just wanted to mention that I respect him for showing up even though we kinda all pile up on him.

  • http://sayanythingblog.com robport

    You know, apartment owners aren’t going to get much of this tax relief. There’s a limit on the credit you can get, right?

    If you own 10 buildings, you’re only going to get “relief” on a tiny portion of your property taxes.

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