Say Anything Blog

Hillary is right down the Communist Manifesto line.

Communism is evil

Ah yes, shared responsibility and shared prosperity--it must be utopia near at hand.  As so many found in the old USSR and the German Democratic Republic, most folks provide the responsibility while a few (namely me) share the prosperity.  Guess where Hillary will come out in all this.  All animals are equal--except some will be more equal than others.

The problem with people like Hillary Clinton and Karl Marx, who envision for the world a utopia where a central authority takes wealth from the many and redistributes it according to the whims and principles of a few (well intentioned or not), is that it requires us all to put all of our faith and wealth into the government.  Which is a bad thing because the more power government gets the more corrupt and oppressive it tends to become.

The real problem with people like Hillary Clinton (and Karl Marx), is that they have no f**king clue where that wealth they are so keen to appropriate comes from, how it came to be, and why.  Like so many over-indulged teenagers they assume they are simply entitled to have their way.  In their looking glass world, wealth just happens, waiting to be snapped up by the first leftwing autocrat to utter the words “common good.” And those who don’t buy into their high-minded, leftist drivel are labeled “enemies,” and “greedy,” part of some “vast, right-wing conspiracy.”

The idea that economic activities are the result of incentives and enlightened self-interest is as foreign to these people as Sanskrit, Urdu, or Tagalag.

“Poverty of goods is easily cured; poverty of the mind is irreparable.”

Bat One.  I liked your use of the word appropriate.  These people do not understand that the average person who has some wealth (defined by Social-Democrats as anyone who has to pay income taxes) has worked for it.  In my case, over 40+ years!

Communism is evil

Musings about Madame Hillary:
1. Many, if not most revolutionaries were probably well meaning at first, they opposed murderous tyranny over the masses, which domination starved their physical bodies and degraded their human spirits; these evil despots needed to be opposed; but unfortunately the only way to stop any tyrant, whether it is a person or a government is by violent means. Tyrants don’t surrender power voluntarily! I haven’t studied people like Castro in depth, but I suspect most of these leaders were passionate people and at first they had genuine compassion for the underprivileged, those human beings living without hope.
2. The terrible twist is this: When these revolutionaries gain power over the vicious dictators that needed to be destroyed, they quickly choose to impose their own socialist vision for humanity upon the very same people they first sought to rescue. Unfortunately for these new oppressors, there is in the human heart a love of liberty, a desire to make independent decisions about their own lives and their future. Therefore, the new socialist, political elite uses fear through terror to impose their will upon those they must rule - for their good of course; and in most cases the people suffer much worse with their new sociaist rulers than they did living under their former masters, because at heart both these types of self-apppointed saviors are tyrants.
3. True democractic capitalism is messy, but when allowed to operate with a minimum of regulations everyone benefits. Look at America, our so-called poor have cars, televisions, computer game consoles, refrigeration, central air conditioning, plenty to eat and in every way they live in much greater prosperity than billions of people elsewhere in the world. But, for the Democrats, the Liberals, the socialists to gain power and impose their special vision of a socialist utopia upon America, they must first sow the seeds of division in the hearts of the underclass. Class warfare is their stock-in-trade. They must convince those living with less than someone else, even though they are compared to the rest of the world doing quite well, that they could have more material things and be happier if only the evil rich had less, if those people having worked hard and seized the American dream were only forced to share what they have, then everyone would be happy and peace would rule. When you look at universal health care, the nonsense of human caused global warming, the opposition to the war in Iraq, amnesty for illegal aliens, these and many more programs of the Left are designed solely to increase discontent among those on the bottom strata of our society, garner their votes based on the promise of income redistribution, and thereby create a bloodless coup in America and foist their dreams of a socialist utopia upon all of America.
4. Hillary is only one of the neo-socialist political elite, people that after the coup will live in their luxurious dachas, skim the cream off society and live far above the lifestyles of the unwashed masses they pretend to represent. Between Madame Hillary and the rest of the Democrat Party Leadership, there is not one iota of difference in their goals or their plans for how to achieve those goals, it is only a matter of choosing which one best satisfies the emotions of the masses, appeals to their greed and and is worthy of their worship for a season.

No matter the age or state of health, for a military man it is always glorious to tilt at windmills, rescue a fair Dulcinea and be a gallant knight in armor in a glorious cause.

America, the birthplace of democracy? Which planet do you live on mate?

Apparently, keeping your own earnings is “special treatment” while having a substantial portion of your earnings confiscated and redistributed to those who will not earn their own is “government” proving “the great American tradition of opportunity”. 

Such unprincipled resourcefulness is revealing especially when spoken of in the context of opportunity.  But to speak of such opportunism as “American tradition” is downright offensive.  To fail to acknowledge the blessings of personal responsibility and the reward of ownership and instead praise unequally “shared responsibility” is much more than deliberate equivocation.  It is to scoff at what is good and just and right, as well as threatening to destroy it.

HG.  Correct.  Here come the communist lies.  Double-speak.  News speak.

Communism is evil

When HC starts talking about eliminating private property and bringing the means of production under the control of the state then I’ll consider her a Marxist. Until then, I’ll take her as another in a long line of capitalism’s defenders who merely wants to ensure that everyone in America has access to the basic necessities of life. One can argue that this idea is wrong but to colour it Marxist is wrong.

This really shouldn’t bug me but as someone who has studied Marx and ultimately rejected his prescriptions it does. Thanks for letting me vent.

"New Year’s Resolution: To tolerate fools more gladly, provided this does not encourage them to take up more of my time.” - James Agate

MikeA: You might find this enlightening, from Rob’s article about the same subject:

MANCHESTER, N.H. (AP) - Presidential hopeful Hillary Rodham Clinton outlined a broad economic vision Tuesday, saying it’s time to replace an “on your own” society with one based on shared responsibility and prosperity.

The Democratic senator said what the Bush administration touts as an “ownership society” really is an “on your own” society that has widened the gap between rich and poor.

“I prefer a ‘we’re all in it together’ society,” she said. “I believe our government can once again work for all Americans. It can promote the great American tradition of opportunity for all and special privileges for none.”

This sounds remarkably like...Karl Marx (from his Critique of the Gotha Programme, specifically):

In the higher phase of communist society, after the tyrannical; subordination of individuals, according to the division of labour, and and thereby also the distinction between mental and physical labour, has disappeared, after labour has become not merely a means to live but is in itself the first necessity of living, after the forces of production have also increased and all the springs of co-operative wealth are flowing more freely together with the all-round development of the individual, then and then only can the narrow bourgeois horizon of rights be left far behind and society will inscribe on its banner - “From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs.”

Seems pretty direct to me.  As a Dem, she already subscribes to “class struggle"(tax cuts for the wealthy; a middle-class tax cut, etc.)

The only legitimate role of government with regard to economics is to prevent fraud and provide a remedy- civil and criminal penalties- in case of fraud.

People have the mistaken notion that the free market has no rules.  But it most certainly does.  All our problems are due to government meddling.

Joseph Stalin:  “Mankind is divided into rich and poor, into property owners and exploited; and to abstract oneself from this fundamental division ;and from the antagonism between poor and rich means abstracting oneself from fundamental facts.”
Hillary Clinton:  “We must stop thinking of the individual and start thinking about what is best for society.” (1993)
Nikita Khrushchev:  “Comrades! We must abolish the cult of the individual decisively, once and for all.” (1956)

Communism is evil

Recently Hillary got up before America at the YouTube Democratic debate and proclaimed that she was not a “Liberal”, but rather that she was more “progressive”. It should be painfully obvious by now to any news junky worth his or hers salt, that the word progressive is just another word for “Socialist”, and for those of you that need to gear up to this reality, may I recommend a excellent book to start with called; “Radical Son, by David Horowitz”, or if you just want to have fun with your search engine, type in the words progressive and socialist, now add names like Hillary Clinton and Code Pink. You’ll get the idea. And now she says “I have never called for socialized health care! That is an old right-wing distortion”. Hello! Hillary Care. Her health care solution is to let the government run health care. Maybe I’m a little confused, but isn’t that socialized health care. I’m getting kind of tired of playing there name game. I think instead of calling them Progressives, Leftist, liberals, or even Democrats. We should simply call them what they truly are, and that is Marxist, Communist, Socialist, or my favorite “Commie-Lib”. Sincerely; Deep Blue PS. I dig your Blog.

MikeAdamson - Until then, I’ll take her as another in a long line of capitalism’s defenders...

That’s funny Mike. The woman wants government health care, higher taxes, more regulations, and bigger government. How that makes her one of “capitalism’s defenders” is beyond me.

that the word progressive is just another word for “Socialist”,

Well, yes but they are anything but progressive.  A better label for them is regressive since socialistic programs typicaly stifle creativity and invention which are based largely on individuality, and we know that socialists don’t want anyone to think for themselves.

You don’t have to be a moron to be a liberal Democrat but it sure helps.

got to the url above if you want to know the real reason she wants to be President. Wellintentioned she is not. She wants to make us as poor as the corrupt Mexican and India leaders have made their people. She wants to give each child born in America $5,000. We would be broke in a month from the children illegals have. She says her health care does not cover illegals but she lied. It does. She wants open borders. There is no way we can assimilate all those people and their offspring. They are taking our jobs and she is bringing people here from India to take the high tech jobs. She gets millions of dollars in campaign funds from India. Her husband gets $3,000 a year from India as a consultant. Look it up. These are all facts. She has promised them outsourcing will never stop.
She was here in Vegas twice.Both times visiting Hispanic neighborhoods. Told the culinary she would walk the picket line with them. The spokesman from Stations casinos who owns many casinos said if we deport illegals he would need 50,000 people to fill the jobs. I suppose he said this to show us what a hardship this would be. To me it meant 50,000 jobs that Americans could have. I saw a picture of the culinary members. Not a white face or black face among them. Why in the world would anyone want her to become President. Perot said when Clinton is elected the loud noise you hear will be America be sucked down the drain. He could say that again right now. But the fix is in. Bush Sr started NAFTA. Clinton signed it in.Bush tries to tell us there are no plans for open borders with Canada and Mexico but there is proof there is. He and Kennedy tried to push amnesty on us. And if Clinton is elected you can be sure it will happen. We have to do something to save America. Vote for the person who stands up and says he will deport illegals and secure our borders. We are not only at war with Iraq. We are at war with the elites who want to turn us into a third world country.

Would that make the Hsus who want to help elect her President, Hillary Clinton’s Socialist platform heels?

Excuse me, you were saying?

I think in uminced words that Hillary is a socialist, power hungry bitch who will ruin our economy by redistributing the wealth and kill individuism and in turn our freedom in which our brave died for.I think she needs to wake up and read our Declaration of Independence and take a trip to Arlington and look at the graves of valor. God help our nation if she is elected and if she is I am sure people will take up arms. This may be war against those who want freedom and those who are socialist especially if she takes power as a dictator and enforce her brand of marxism. I love my country but I will hate Hillary and will lose respect for the office of the president if she is elected. There is already sucessionist movements in several states and with her election it will give these movements more backbone. Also, what bugs me is the mainstream media protraying her as a conquering hero so the media is also socialist. GOD SAVE OUR NATION!!!

God help our nation if she is elected and if she is I am sure people will take up arms.

The Republic survived Billy Jeff. God forbid, if she were elected, the Republic would survive the Wicked Witch of the West Wing.

Excuse me, you were saying?

You can see Hillary’s socialist agenda in her proposed spending plans. Here is an article that details her 750 billion in new spending

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/466451/can_the_country_afford_hillary_clinton.html

You can see Hillary’s socialist agenda in her proposed spending plans.

Actually, all you have to do is to pay attention to what she says:

“I want to take those profits, and use them for the common good.” Guess who gets to determine “the common good”?

The only legitimate role of government with regard to economics is to prevent fraud and provide a remedy- civil and criminal penalties- in case of fraud.

People have the mistaken notion that the free market has no rules.  But it most certainly does.  All our problems are due to government meddling.

Wow, many people here must not like Hillary.  So my question is if you do not support Hillary, how do you support?

I do not think Hillary is talking about socialism, but creating a more equal playing field for the poor and middle class.  Do you all know that the more money the rich make (anyone who makes more than 250,000 per household) the less taxes they pay?  The tax system is made to help the rich get richer, and the Republican government makes it sound like every one will get a piece of the pie, or that it will trickle down to the rest of us. It does not work that way.  If you check the median household income, white people made 50,000 in 2006, Black people made 31,000 in 2006, and any other race made 37,000 in 2006.  But here is the scary part, everyone says that America is great for everyone, but back in 1975 white people had a household income of 39,000, which is more that what any other race had in 2006, 30 years later.  Why have we not made a bigger stride in changing this fact?  It all comes down to education and health care, which are the two biggest costs in a person’s life.  In some other countries, education and health care are free and paid by the government with taxpayers dollars.  If we were able to combine the entrepreneur spirit of the United States with the humanitarian spirit, then I think the United States would be the best country in the world hands down.  But instill we can do that, many countries will keep surpassing us in education, environmental issues, and anything else you can think of. 

The problem with people like Hillary Clinton and Karl Marx, who envision for the world a utopia where a central authority takes wealth from the many and redistributes it according to the whims and principles of a few (well intentioned or not), is that it requires us all to put all of our faith and wealth into the government.  Which is a bad thing because the more power government gets the more corrupt and oppressive it tends to become.

I think this phrase is funny, taking about Hillary and how the big government would be corrupt under her.  Except, under George W. Bush we have had more corruption and abuse of power, more like a tyrant than a president.  Bush is irresponsible of the tax payers money, he can’t balance a budget to save his life, and he (sorry not him), Chaney was the complete mastermind behind the invasion of Iraq.  Most, if not all the orders to go to war came from the Vice president and Bush just signed off on it.  It does make sense if you think about, when he talks with the press he does not have any clue about the questions they ask.  Because he does not make any decisions, he just signs off on them.  So, it makes him look like a fool, not saying he is not a fool, but when he talks with the press it makes him look like a bigger fool. 

So I thought the above statement was funny, since the current republican president has put the country in a bigger mess with the war, economy, and the view other nations have towards us. 

If we claim to be the best country in the world, then it has to be that way in every aspect.  Not just one, or two, and just for the rich, elite, or famous. It also seems that many people have hatred toward Hillary and other liberal democrats.  We all have our own opinions on different issues, but it is no reason to hate someone.  We all have our own views and some would be considered to be Left and others Right, but in the end it is what is best for society.  The few should not control the many, but we should also not let the weak and poor suffer. 

In the end it comes down to this simple phrase: United we stand and Divide we fall.

I do not think Hillary is talking about socialism, but creating a more equal playing field for the poor and middle class.

Which is socialism.  The reason the middle class gets more than the poor is because they earned it.  It’s called incentive.  It’s also called justice, in that you get what you earn.  Under socialism, the achievers subsidize the non-achievers, which is injustice.  But then, socialism is all about creating dependence on govt and concentrating power in the political class, which is what Hillary is all about.
Not hard to figure out, really.

Nobody embraces communism/socialism to be one of the proletariat.

The only legitimate role of government with regard to economics is to prevent fraud and provide a remedy- civil and criminal penalties- in case of fraud.

People have the mistaken notion that the free market has no rules.  But it most certainly does.  All our problems are due to government meddling.

Having programs funded by the government which helps those who can pay for college is unjust? 

Knowing that we still have people in this country who discriminates by color, sex, sexual orientation, age, handicap, national origin, or anything they can think of that makes someone different then them?

Knowing that you get a better education because where you live?

Knowing that the more money you make the less taxes, by percentage, you pay because the greedy and inhuman politicians have to keep the small group of rich happy so they stay in office?

Being the only industrialized country in the world not to have ratified the Kyoto Protocol, to reduce greenhouse gases staring in 2005?

Being one of 4 countries not to have a national law requiring companies to pay women while they are out on maternity leave?

Knowing that the policies in this country are created by big business and their lobbyists, without any regard for the well being of the people of the United States?

Creating a capitalist country, that cares more about profit, over anything else like; humanity, environmental issues, and many other issues that plague many people in the United States.

My family does well, we are not overly wealth, but we do not struggle, but the more money we make, the more taxes we expect to pay.  Not to find different tax loops that the upper class politicians made so the rich can keep much more of their money and make the poor and middle class pay more. 

I feel betrayed by President George W. Bush, who has told more lies in his 8 years of office, then the age of the earth.  We are losing many men and women in a war that is not making the United States any safer.  The money we have spent in Iraq could have been used to hunt down the terrorists in Afghanistan, update our ports and borders, increase the effectiveness of our education system so we have a smarter and stronger work force, and many other issues.  Plus, we would not have lost nearly 4000 soldiers lives, and over 25,000 would not be several wounded, also there has been reported over 80,000 Iraq civilians killed, but many researchers and scientists think that the data is false and the number could be more then 1 million.

All these things are unjust, and I feel that as an American we can do better. 

I am not talking about giving anything to anyone, every person has to earn it the right, legal, and human way.  I am also not saying that Clinton is the best person for the presidency. 
But I do know this, that everyone does have to pull there own weight, and everyone should have the same opportunities if they want to put in the work.  But, just like in the Armed Forces, we never leave a brother/sister on the battle field and the stronger soldiers always help the weaker ones.  It is the job of higher command to make the weaker stronger and not give up on them.  I don’t think we should give up on other Americans just because they were not born to the right family, did not have the correct color, name, address, or did not speak the way everyone else. 

If we did that, that would be unjust.

Sean: Thanks for listing all the lying leftie talking points, but we have heard them over and over again, and they are just as untrue as they were the first time we heard them.

The only legitimate role of government with regard to economics is to prevent fraud and provide a remedy- civil and criminal penalties- in case of fraud.

People have the mistaken notion that the free market has no rules.  But it most certainly does.  All our problems are due to government meddling.

Sean.  No.  On the battlefield, the “weaker ones” get stronger to survive.  There are not many “weaker ones”.  Soldiers go through rigorous basic, advanced and specialized training before going on the battlefield. 

Now on subject.  Her misleading comment on shared responsibility !

Democrats in general and socialists do not understand the concept of personal responsibility.  Have you ever lived for even a short time in Europe.  You would have responsibility in your face immediately, but at the same time many times more freedom than here in the USA. 

We already supposedly share responsibility:  to drive according to the rules of the road, to observe federal, state and local laws, to honor our words.  But
when it comes down to the consequences or holding one accountable, the liberals and socialists are loath to enforce those laws they put in place.  Just so much talk.  One simple example.

Gun laws.  Under Janet Reno, only about ten were prosecuted for falsely signing when buying a gun.  The next administration prosecuted thousands and actually enforced the instant background checks.  Of course, criminals and gangs do not follow laws, and liberals do not go after them nor illegal aliens.

Communism is evil

Sean, why do you support socialism. Explain your reasoning in under 200 words.

Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

Sean,

Just out of curiosity… just how old are you?  And what exactly do your parents do for a living?

“Poverty of goods is easily cured; poverty of the mind is irreparable.”

Sean - I do not think Hillary is talking about socialism, but creating a more equal playing field for the poor and middle class.

And she’s going to accomplish this by making the playing field more unequal? How does that work?

Do you all know that the more money the rich make (anyone who makes more than 250,000 per household) the less taxes they pay?

That’s not true. They actually pay the majority of taxes.

The tax system is made to help the rich get richer...

How so?

...and the Republican government makes it sound like every one will get a piece of the pie, or that it will trickle down to the rest of us. It does not work that way.

What are you talking about here? You’re just making things up. Wealth is created.

The few should not control the many...

This is coming from a socialist defender? Are you kidding, Sean?

Having programs funded by the government which helps those who can pay for college is unjust?

Redistribution is unjust. I need all of the money I earned. Do you understand that? You taking it from me to give to someone else is unjust. Do you understand that?

Knowing that we still have people in this country who discriminates by color, sex, sexual orientation, age, handicap, national origin, or anything they can think of that makes someone different then them?

Why is this a question? The government does this more than anybody else.

Knowing that the more money you make the less taxes, by percentage, you pay because the greedy and inhuman politicians have to keep the small group of rich happy so they stay in office?

This is simply not true. The rich pay the vast majority of the taxes. By percentage.

Being the only industrialized country in the world not to have ratified the Kyoto Protocol, to reduce greenhouse gases staring in 2005?

Is this supposed to be a supporting argument?

If all of your friends jumped off of a bridge to their deaths, you’re telling us that you would also jump off while berating the rest of us who aren’t.

Being one of 4 countries not to have a national law requiring companies to pay women while they are out on maternity leave?

So what? Why should the companies be on the hook for someone else’s pregnancy? The answer is not because everybody else does it, Mr. Bridge Jumper.

Knowing that the policies in this country are created by big business and their lobbyists, without any regard for the well being of the people of the United States?

What are you talking about here? You’re so vague.

Not to find different tax loops that the upper class politicians made so the rich can keep much more of their money and make the poor and middle class pay more.

How many times are you going to lie about this one?

I feel betrayed by President George W. Bush, who has told more lies in his 8 years of office, then the age of the earth.

You’re getting really stupid now.

We are losing many men and women in a war that is not making the United States any safer.

Actually we haven’t lost that many at all. As for “not making the United States any safer”, we have taken out a dangerous dictator.

The money we have spent in Iraq could have been used to hunt down the terrorists in Afghanistan, update our ports and borders, increase the effectiveness of our education system so we have a smarter and stronger work force, and many other issues.

Or, it could have been spent on sending astronauts to the moon.

We can play this game all day long.

Plus, we would not have lost nearly 4000 soldiers lives, and over 25,000 would not be several wounded, also there has been reported over 80,000 Iraq civilians killed, but many researchers and scientists think that the data is false and the number could be more then 1 million.

Since you’re not going to be truthful, you might as well make that number 2 million. What the hell, why not?

All these things are unjust...

Taking out Saddam and granting freedom to 25 million people is not “unjust”.

I am not talking about giving anything to anyone...

Yes you are.

But I do know this, that everyone does have to pull there own weight...

No they don’t. Your own admission. You just got done telling us that the rich should pay more and that the taxpayers should pay for someone else’s college education.

You tell us conflicting things Sean.

Hello Robert108 & Chief RZ

Thanks for the information, but you tell me that the items I spoke of are lies, so please tell me what is true.  Do not just say that it is a lie, come with prove that what I stated is false. 

So, you (Chief RZ) are saying that Europe has more freedom and more responsibility giving to their people then the United States.  Can you give any examples?  Have/do you live in Europe, and is it better than the US?  What are your likes/dislikes?

Chief RZ check out the statements below, you are correct that the Brady Law, during the Clinton Administration, did not prosecute many people for trying to buy a gun.  It was more than 10 for the first year, and they denial many handguns. 

Also, PRESIDENT CLINTON UNVEILS LARGEST EVER NATIONAL GUN ENFORCEMENT INITIATIVE, HAILS NEW PROSECUTIONS DATA
January 18, 2000.  The above initiative did not start until FY 2001, so Clinton helped Bush out with federal money to support crime control, and Bush was able to take the credit. 
http://clinton4.nara.gov/WH/New/html/20000119_1.html

Also check this website out, it shows that since 1994, both Clinton and Bush have done well in reduce murders and other crimes.  Whether you can relate that back to the Brady Bill or not who knows.
http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/uscrime.htm

Prosecutions of Brady law violations have been miniscule. Despite a possible ten year sentence for felons attempting to purchase a firearm, Bovard’s column tells us, “[t]he number of convictions from prosecutions for making false statements on Brady forms declined from 253 in 1994 to 36 in 1997. A 1996 General Accounting Office report quotes ATF and Department of Justice officials as viewing “Brady primarily as a means to deny purchases to criminals (Chapter 2, Section 4).”

http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_brady_bill.html

According to an FBI report, National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS): The First Seven Months, the Interim Brady System (February 28, 1994 through November 30, 1998), “over 310,000 felons, fugitives, and other prohibited people” were prevented from getting handguns. And this NICS 2002 Operations Report, claims since the inception of NICS, there have been over 563,000 handgun denials.
Although gun control skeptics such as James Bovard in a Washington Times op-ed column challenge the validity of Brady denial figures, the FBI’s NICS report cited above (and issued about one-year subsequent to Bovard’s column), states the FBI denied 49,160 purchases from November 30, 1998 through June 30, 1999. 6,896 appeals had been received to date (no report date is given). A decision had been reached in 5,169 cases with 3,823 having the denial sustained. Thus, if the new NICS system is a reliable indicator, the vast majority of firearms purchases rejected are valid denials.
On the line of illegal immigrants, it was President Ronald Reagan who signed the bill into power, with the help of a Democratic Congress.  This bill in 1986 could have helped to control the borders and control illegal immigration.  This was also what President George W. Bush was proposing in 2006 or 2007, but Congress was not in support of the bill.  I do not know what the best means of action should be.  It is not fair that many illegal immigrations sneak into the country from the north and south borders.  But since the problem has already been here for decades, and the government did not do anything about it, it would hurt many parts of the economy if we sent 11 million illegal immigrants packing.
Under the 1986 legislation, most illegal immigrants who could establish they had resided in the United States continuously for five years were granted temporary resident status, which could be upgraded to permanent residency after 18 months and, after another five years, to citizenship.
“Note that this path to citizenship was not automatic,” Meese points out. “Indeed, the legislation stipulated several conditions: immigrants had to pay application fees, learn to speak English, understand American civics, pass a medical exam and register for military selective service. Those with convictions for a felony or three misdemeanors were ineligible. Sound familiar?” The 1986 bill also strengthened border security and enforcement of immigration laws, in part through sanctions against employers who hired illegal immigrants.
Meese, who served under President Reagan from 1985 to 1988, is now a fellow with the Heritage Foundation in Washington.
He explains that the 1986 legislation was pushed by the Democratic majority in the House and the Select Commission on Immigration and Refugee Policy. President Reagan, he said, “considered it reasonable to adjust the status of what was then a relatively small population, and I supported his decision.”
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=50359

Wow. 

All those concepts expressed by the writer Sean, right down to the terms of art, are all signature as coming from a Leftist worldview. 

I suppose this is what to expect from government schools that indoctrinate rather than teach.  They have been caught denigrating or ignoring the history most of us older folks learned as youngsters. 

Instead, Columbus was an oppressor, the Founders are dead, white, slave-owning hypocrites, every Third World opinion, belief or religion is worthy, but Christianity burns falsely-accused witches at the stake (still, evidently), young boys are not boys, but are too aggressive, diagnosed with ADD and doped up with cocktails of Luvox and Ritalin, oh and by the way, Timmy Has Two Daddies.

It only gets better in college, where the Yippies who once threw rocks and Molotov cocktails at the ROTC building now have tenure.

While Sean has taken some time to express himself here, it will take some open-mindedness on his part to find a worldview (here) which will come in direct conflict with much of what he has likely been taught all his young life.

...for great justice

likwidshoe
Ok, I check some sources on the IRS website and likwidshoe you are correct on the taxes that the wealth percent of the country pay.  But the economy we are in not you have to take into account inflation that what we make now does not go as far as it did 5 or 10 years ago.

I was trying to reference Reagan’s Economic strategy of Trickle down Economics, and that it does not work.  When the wealthy have more money, they usually keep more for themselves and it does not trickle down.

Do you believe in taxes or is it ever human for himself?

When I was talking about Big Business and how they control many things, the Kyoto Protocol is just one example.  The major car companies, coal industries, and other factories and manufacturing companies in the US does not want us to control greenhouse gases because it will make them change ways and have to take responsibility to make their company better for the environment. 

Pregnancy – So you think it is fair that a woman and her family be penalized for have a baby and they should not get any paid time off or support to get back to work.  They should have to suffer, use saving, and not paid while out on maternity leave.

So, I exaggerated on how many lies Bush said, and I know all politicians lie.  But the way Bush talked about weapons of mass destruction, and that invading Iraq, which was not responsible for 9/11, was the only way to defeat terrorism.  It all was a lie.  The only place we should be, and we are not as much, is Afghanistan. 

You do not think 4000 American soldiers losing their lives is not that many?  And the 1 million estimated comes from the website below, but the US government says that the over 80,000 Iraqi civilians have been killed.  I can speak for them and nether can you, but I do not think the Iraqis think they are free.  Plus over 10% of the population has fled to neighboring countries. 
Yes, taking out a dictator is good, but it has not been worth all the lives, and cost of the war.  Plus, invading Iraq was not our responsibility, Iraq was not responsible for 9/11, Osama Bin Laden was and still is, but we are not trying to find him as much as were back in 2002 & 2003. 

I do not know who to believe anymore, the government, and the media, what people write on the web & in books.

2hohel9

I do not support socialism, I believe in a free economy, but I also believe that the corporation in the society has responsibility to be truthful and respectful of the people and the environment they are in and apart of.

Bat One
Ii don’t know what my age, 34, and my parent’s occupations, father – COO and mother – homemaker, has to do with anything, but there you go. 

I enjoy talking with you all.  I have never writing this much on a blog before and it helps me define and clarify what I believe in.

Questions for you all:
Do you think that you have a responsibility to society? Environment?
Do you think Individualism should be controlled with in society?
Do you belief the constitution and Declaration of Independent applies to all Americans?
What do you like and dislike about the Democratic Party?

Thanks
Sean

Move Zig
Please clarify your view? 
What about worldview do I need to be more openminded?
I hope you are not stuck in your old age and old views.

I was trying to reference Reagan’s Economic strategy of Trickle down Economics, and that it does not work.  When the wealthy have more money, they usually keep more for themselves and it does not trickle down.

Do they put that money under their beds? What do they do with it?

Reality check dude: the rich are forced to invest their wealth. If they don’t, they lose to inflation. That investment then powers the economy. It trickles throughout the economy, not just down.

Do you believe in taxes or is it ever human for himself?

“Believe in taxes”? Haha.

Nice false choice either/or answer. There are more than two possibilities.

When I was talking about Big Business and how they control many things, the Kyoto Protocol is just one example.

The Kyoto Protocol was defeated in the Senate 95 to 0. Was that “Big Business”? Get real.

Pregnancy – So you think it is fair that a woman and her family be penalized for have a baby and they should not get any paid time off or support to get back to work.

“Penalized”?

I just don’t think that the employer should have to pay for work that isn’t done. Why do you want to penalize the employer?

They should have to suffer, use saving, and not paid while out on maternity leave.

Are you talking about the employer here? That’s the only way it makes sense. You want them to suffer, use savings, and not get paid (get work) while their employee is out on maternity leave.

But the way Bush talked about weapons of mass destruction, and that invading Iraq, which was not responsible for 9/11, was the only way to defeat terrorism.  It all was a lie.

Stupid. The WMDs were only one of many reasons for the war. Iraq was not responsible for 9/11. Who cares? This is a war against terrorism, not a war against only those who committed 9/11. The lies here are yours.

The only place we should be, and we are not as much, is Afghanistan.

That makes no sense. Afghanistan is not the only problem area in the world.

You do not think 4000 American soldiers losing their lives is not that many?

For a five year war, halfway around the world, defeating the fourth largest military in three weeks, no, not at all. We are blessed to have only lost 4,000 warriors in a five year war.

And the 1 million estimated comes from the website below...

The one million estimate is bogus.

I can speak for them and nether can you, but I do not think the Iraqis think they are free.

You say that you can’t (I think that’s what you meant to type) talk for them, and then you proceed to do just that. Hypocrisy much?

Yes, taking out a dictator is good, but it has not been worth all the lives, and cost of the war.

I disagree.

Plus, invading Iraq was not our responsibility, Iraq was not responsible for 9/11...

So what? You keep on saying that like it is some kind of trump card. It means nothing.

...Osama Bin Laden was and still is, but we are not trying to find him as much as were back in 2002 & 2003.

Now you’re talking out of your ass.

likwid: I believe the term “trickle down economics” was a creation of the lefties to demonize Reagan’s economic policies, in the same way that the Strategic Defense Iniative was misnamed “Star Wars”.  In the free enterprise system, the wealth flows from the achievers to everybody else through market forces.  A rising tide lifts all boats.

The only legitimate role of government with regard to economics is to prevent fraud and provide a remedy- civil and criminal penalties- in case of fraud.

People have the mistaken notion that the free market has no rules.  But it most certainly does.  All our problems are due to government meddling.

Why is Sean so concerned about people getting rich?

The left wants a great economy without rich people. People like Sean demonize wealth and wealth creation, and then tell you of all of the ways they want to control the economy.

Little budding dictators, each and every one of them.

Sean,
Good discussion.  My answers followed with clarifications.

“Questions for you all:
Do you think that you have a responsibility to society?
Yes, to protect it from illegal aliens, felons and other lawbreakers.  I served on nine juries, the US military and regularly call in suspicious activity as requested by our county sheriff.  I have donated over three gallons of blood in my lifetime, served about ten years in the Boy Scouts.  Check my webpage for more.  You?
Environment?  Yes.  I throw my trash in trashcans, not leaving it on the ground as I see some others do.  I also pay for the water and energy I use.  I have a car that gets 30 MPG, ride and walk when I can.  I keep our house 64/76F winter/summer.  You?

Do you think Individualism should be controlled with in society?  Absolutely not.  We are a free country if we can keep communism/socialism out.

Do you belief the constitution and Declaration of Independent applies to all Americans?  Yes, all citizens of the USA, not people from other countries who sneak into our country.

What do you like and dislike about the Democratic Party?  They tax too much, spend OPM (other people’s money) while not spending their own.

“Europe has more freedom and more responsibility giving to their people then the United States.  Can you give any examples?  Have/do you live in Europe, and is it better than the US?  What are your likes/dislikes?”
I will quote from Germany’s driver’s manual:  The government assumes that the driver is a responsible person until he demonstrates otherwise.  German courts have adopted the doctrine that drivers of motor vehicles can rely on one another to obey the law.” “The authorization to drive is a privilege, not a right.  This privilege may be withdrawn if a driver fails to show responsibility or care for his or her own safety or for the safety of others while operating a vehicle.”
For further example, it is a violation to run out of gasoline on the autobahn, because it shows the driver to be irresponsible.
In other places, I was able to move freely without excessive “nanny state” (democrats) telling that this or that is dangerous.  The individual accepts absolute personal responsibility.  I was able to walk miles in WWI trenches with barbed wire around without being told I could not go there.  In another good example, a nice watch was left in the middle of a town square with a sign “FOUNDEN” ein watch.  It stayed there for about two months.  I assume the owner finally retrieved it.  Any question?
In general, Republicans are for small central government and Democrats are for a large central government telling people everything and allowing not much freedom of choice.  Glad you asked.

Communism is evil

Socialist babble. Do I have a responsibility to society? Yes. To insure that socialist assholes like you are smacked down and thoroughly eradicated.

Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

Sean.  Waiting for your reply to the question about being responsible to society.  Have you given any blood?  What temperature do you keep your house/apartment?

Communism is evil

Sean.  Are you still around?  Have you ever tried to give blood?  It costs nothing, helps society and shows you care for your fellow man.  For your information, only about 9 percent of Americans give.  You?

Communism is evil

Move Zig
Please clarify your view?
What about worldview do I need to be more openminded?

First, you have to understand that many of the views you have expressed here, I recognize as being boilerplate Socialism.  I am assuming that you are quite young, am I right?

Are you American?  I’ve spent a good amount of time overseas and recognize that even while US schools have shifted over from teaching your basic Reading, Writing and Arithmetic to Leftist indoctrination, in Europe it is even worse.

If you’d like to understand my worldview better, read the Federalist Papers… these were the blogs, so to speak, of the Constitutions Founders as they were hashing out how the American legal system should look. 

Read also about Natural Law (Ius Naturae), both in its early incarnation by the Greek Stoics and De Re Publica by Plato, and then in its rebirth by such thinkers as Aquinas, Hobbes, Grotius, Pufendorf, and Locke.

I hope you are not stuck in your old age and old views.

Hmmm.  I remember the arrogance of a young French girl who once spoke to me, tossing her head and sniffing that America ‘has no history. ‘

It did not occur to her that America’s history and Europe’s history were inextricably mixed, as while there were native Americans before the uncontrolled immigration of Europeans into North America, it was the New American that radically changed the face of the world in its short 200 plus years history as a nation, saving the world from tyranny in WWI, WWII and throughout the Cold War.

I guess the schools in France didn’t point this out to her.  I could not really fault her, as she only could know what was taught her.

You have to understand that a lot of stupidity and evil comes out of Europe under the guise of innovative thinking.  Even if you are a student of history going back just one hundred years, you will recall that Europe has managed to deliver up the political systems that resulted in a massive slaughter of young men in the trenches of the First World War.  And, after that, quickly turned around, giving us dictatorships in Russia, Germany and Italy, who then precipitated the mass killings of both civilians and soldiers by the millions in the Second World War. 

The socialist legacy lives on in the bloody dictatorships of Red China, North Korea and Cuba, along with various and sundry smaller tyrants around the world.

After having been a student of history, law and politics, having served in military intelligence and in our state department, I would like to think my worldview is based on an assessment of political systems over time, comparing their actions against their rhetoric. 

Just as in Matthew 7:16, Ye shall know them by their fruits. the best way to tell if someone is telling the truth is to compare what they say against what they do over time.

If you would like to understand what Socialism is really all about, versus what they say they are all about, read The Black Book of Communism by Stéphane Courtois and the Gulag Archipelago by Aleksandr Isaevich Solzhenitsyn.

...for great justice

Yes, I believe that I have the responsibility to follow all the laws set by this country and by God, but also know that no one is perfect, but we still strive for perfection.  I am a Catholic, but do not consider myself a religious person, but more of a spiritual person, and think that people can be spiritual and introspective without being religious.  I am with you Chief on protecting from illegal aliens, felons, and lawbreakers.  I think we need better security on our borders and ports, but I do not know what the best and right solution is for the millions of illegal aliens we have in the country right now.
I salute you in serving our country in the military, which was not part of my calling.  But, I try and volunteer in my community and help the less fortunate, food to the food bank, cloths to the Salvation Army and good will, and support the big brothers and big sisters.  But, I also believe that the more fortunate people in society need to help the less fortunate, thru programs that they can use to better their life’s, i.e. Education grants & loans, job training, etiquette, and other basic skills and manners that most families instill but not all.  The people that I am talking about are the children that have a crack whore for a mother and a father who is doing 20 to life for murder.
The children get raise by a family member who just wants claim them on their taxes and does not raise them well.  So the place that the child turns is the street and starts selling & using drugs, which starts him/her on a life of crime.  I think the best way to help these children is in school, but if can not protect our children in school, whether it be in the biggest city or the smallest town, then how can we expect them to learn.  Plus, I think all public schools should be fair, I do not think that the public school in the neighborhood of the rich be 10 times or 2 times better than the one in the poorest part of town.  If we do not even out our school system, then we will keep the hatred, racist, cultural differences going into the next millennium. 

I recycle glass, plastic, paper, etc each week, and my wife and I only throw about 1 bag of trash away a week.  I drive a Mazda 3, which gets 29-33 mpg, but we also have a jeep grand Cherokee, which only gets 19-20 mpg.  But we are looking into hybrids and all electric cars this year and next.

Chief if you life documentaries check out the one called Who Killed the Electric Car.  After I watched it I could remember the time when it accord, but you may have a better memory than me. 
I try to buy local, organic, all natural, food & produce, which helps on the air quality, since most of the big stores get their tomatoes for Chili, California, or China.  It is difficult to adhere to this in the winter, but I am working at it each and every day. 
We keep our house at a cool 55 when we are at work and 62 at home during the winter, summer time 80 when we are away, and 70 when we are at home.  We plan to build a home in the next several years and will be looking into all the options green, carbon-free, all natural.  We will definitely use solar, wind, geo-thermal, hot-water panels, and a water harvester.  If you would like to find out more, here is a website about a British architect firm that does nothing but carbon-free buildings, also check out the article The Green Luxury Dream in Best Life September 2007 http://www.zedfactory.com/zedfactory_home.htm

Yes, I agree on keeping communism/socialism out of the US, but I do believe that socio-economies have an impact on American Lives.  I do not know enough about all the laws that have been past, but it is a fact that many of our high paying labor jobs have moved to other countries for cheap labor, which also does not help the environment.  I believe that we need to have a balance between individual and society.
If everyone we lived in an individualist world, we would have people doing whatever they can to better themselves, no matter what, not following any religion, tradition, or external moral.  It is all about me.
If we lived in a socialist world, no one person would have a say, you would have to get the group to decide everything.  The group owns and produces everything, and the individual owns nothing.
I think we need to balance it out and be individualists with society rules, because with society rules, everyone will do as they wish and have no care for neighbor, community, environment, or country.  Total individualist is very selfish. 

Yes, me too, which also includes people born her in the US, gays, lesbian, disabled, transsexual, transgender, blacks, whites, Asians, and all other nationalities that have come to the US legally and have adopted this country as their new home.

Please explain your “nanny state” remark?  Are you saying we should not have labels in items that are dangerous, or the government should not check to make sure our food and other produces are safe?  I do know some of my friends and I enjoy a Davidoff cigar a couple weeks ago, which one of my friend receive the cigars from his father in law.  He bought the cigars in a European country, maybe Switzerland or Sweden, and there was a statement like this on it:

SURGEON GENERAL’S WARNING: Smoking Causes Lung Cancer, Heart Disease, Emphysema, And May Complicate Pregnancy.

…. Add it was this big on the box.  The warning was bigger than the name of the cigars.  I thought that it was very funny.
We have towns and cities which your watch sorry would happen, like a town in Michigan that was one of the best places to live a couple years ago.  Many stores used the honor system when paying, people did not lock their doors at night, and the community helped to raise all the children in the town.

Move Zig

Thanks for your clarification, and I can very well see that you are a history of the world.  But I also think that most of the countries in Europe are run by the conservative party, and I am referencing from Chief RZ myspace page.  Plus, it is these conservative countries that do have a small government but they have universal health care and less expensive or free education all the thru college.

Thanks for conversations.

Whats next on Clintons socialist path after healthcare?
Broadening welfare to those that make under 50k a year?
Personally i’d love socialized (free) car insurance and life insurance.  Really though, are democrats completely blind to the fact that she wants to communize the USA.
Hell, she’s also a North American Union supporter like McCain.  Amnesty is the 1st step, then the border goes away, and since our American dollar is already worthless the step after that is our new currency, the Amero.  The national ID card is already passed and in the works, hello Big Brother.  I’d prefer my rats not in a cage on my head.
Good blog.

Benjamin Franklin ~ “Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.”

Anyone & Everyone

Please define Essential Liberties that Americans give up for Temporary Safety in our society today?

Please explain what programs/bills anything, that relates or supports democrats trying to for a socialist/comminist government/country?

Thanks
Sean

Please explain what programs/bills anything, that relates or supports democrats trying to for a socialist/comminist government/country?

So-called “universal healthcare”, any plan for income redistribution not based on merit or achievement.

The only legitimate role of government with regard to economics is to prevent fraud and provide a remedy- civil and criminal penalties- in case of fraud.

People have the mistaken notion that the free market has no rules.  But it most certainly does.  All our problems are due to government meddling.

...since our American dollar is already worthless…

Absolutely false; but if you really believe that, please send all your “worthless” dollars to me, please.

The only legitimate role of government with regard to economics is to prevent fraud and provide a remedy- civil and criminal penalties- in case of fraud.

People have the mistaken notion that the free market has no rules.  But it most certainly does.  All our problems are due to government meddling.

Please define Essential Liberties that Americans give up for Temporary Safety in our society today?

Ever heard of the Real ID?  It was attached to a military spending and hurricane relief bill in 2005.  its a biometric ID card that you’ll be required to carry in 2011.  It will be required to fly, travel internationally, and make banking transactions.  It may be checked at any time by law enforcement agencies, without the need of probable cause.  It violates the 1st, 4th and 10th ammendments.  The Dept of Homeland Security should in fact be renamed Big Brother.
Please view this comprehensive website by senators and congressmen opposed to the Real ID.  Get educated.
http://legislatorsagainstrealid.com

Robert108

So, if a country has universal healthcare, then they are a communist country.  Which means the following countries are communist?
Austria, Belgium, Bosnia, Bulgaria, Croatia, Czech Republic, Denmark, Finland, Estonia, France, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Iceland, Ireland, Italy, Malta, the Netherlands, Norway, Lichtenstein, Luxembourg, Poland, Portugal,[4] Romania, Russia, Serbia, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland and the United Kingdom.[5]

And the conservative party in UK has been in power for 2/3rd of the 20th century, but lost power in 1997.  The conservative party was the group who brought about universal healthcare, check wikipedia.org and the political parties British National Party, Conservative party, Liberal democrats, and the Labour Party.

Robert108
Here is part of a Newsweek article from a couple weeks ago, after it is a couple of websites, one from Warren Buffet, talking about the falling dollar back in 2003.

The Slow Fall of The Greenback
The dollar is as weak as it’s been in more than three decades. Its slide is ushering in a new economic era.
By Rana Foroohar and John Sparks | NEWSWEEK
Jan 28, 2008 Issue

Clearly, times have changed. The dollar—along with America’s economic place in the world—has been on a well-documented downward spiral since 2002. Back then, a euro was worth 86 cents. Today, it buys $1.46. Of course, the euros relative youth makes talk of “historic lows” easy to dismiss. More telling is that the U.S. Dollar Index, a futures contract reflecting the dollar’s strength against six other major trading currencies, hit the lowest mark in its 35-year history just before Christmas.
The strength of the greenback, and of the economy, underpinned U.S. global hegemony in politics and culture. Big American banks like Citibank used to fund Third World governments—now those governments are buying Citibank on the cheap.
Venezuelan president and Bush-basher Hugo Chávez recently gloated, “The empire of the dollar is crumbling.” But that’s not quite right. The majority of the world’s financial assets and central bank reserves are still held in dollars. It will take years for the euro to become a real rival; the renminbi will rise over decades. Still, what’s clear is that we have entered a new era. The United States can no longer rule the world on credit. A rebalancing has begun (graphic next page). Enter the new dollar order.
http://www.itulip.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2644
http://www.pbs.org/wsw/news/fortunearticle_20031026_03.html
Please, next time when you disagree with something I said, have facts and evidence that what you say is true.  If you think the dollar is so great in the market right know, try traveling to Europe, Canada, and even Mexico and you will see that the dollar does not go as far as it did just 5 – 10 years ago.

Chief RZ – you mentioned that you don’t like the “nanny states” of the democrats; well you would then have to support the UK Liberal Democrats because they feel the same way.  Check out wikipedia.org and the Liberal Democrat Party.

So, if a country has universal healthcare, then they are a communist country. Which means the following countries are communist?

Sean: If you want to be considered a real debater, stick with what is written, not what you imagine it means.  You asked for examples of movement toward communism, and I listed so-called “universal healthcare” as one of those moves.  It takes more than that to have communism(as you should know, but apparently don’t), but it’s a step in that direction.
FYI, communism is State ownership of everything, even the people.  Taking over a major industry is a step in that direction, as is the State taking over income distribution, which I also listed.

You asserted that our dollar is “worthless”, and it isn’t.  Again I say, if you think your dollars are worthless, please send them to me.

I’ll disagree with you in any manner I wish.

The only legitimate role of government with regard to economics is to prevent fraud and provide a remedy- civil and criminal penalties- in case of fraud.

People have the mistaken notion that the free market has no rules.  But it most certainly does.  All our problems are due to government meddling.

Robert108

Please explain what programs/bills anything that relates or supports democrats trying to for a socialist/communist government/country?
So-called “universal healthcare”, any plan for income redistribution not based on merit or achievement.
You were and are alluding to countries with universal healthcare systems moving toward communism, so my question and statement before was not what I “imagined” you said. Which is a bold statement to make?

Also, I think you better read who is writing what, because the comment about “worthless” did not come from me, I just made a comment and supporting evidence that the American dollar is worth less than in the past and many other currencies, and we need to fix the economy.  If you need any economic pointers let me know. 

Also know that Warren Buffet knows that the tax structure in the US is out of whack. 
Larry King asked Warren Buffet what is wrong with America, he replied “The problem with America is that it helps people like me, and I don’t need help!” Warren Buffet admits that the tax system is not fair. 

You can disagree with me, and vice versa, and that is fine, because that is what America is all about.  But, if we are going to make this country better, we all need to have more humility.

You were and are alluding to countries with universal healthcare systems moving toward communism…

No, I wasn’t.  The title of this thread is about Hillary’s socialist program, and I was speaking specifically to that.  Anything else is just what you are making up.

To clarify, once again: While every communist and socialist country has so-called “universal” or “free” healthcare, the mere existence of such a misguided program doesn’t always designate a communist country.
It could be a country that is merely socialist to some degree.  Communism is the most extreme form of socialism, where the State owns everything, as I said before.  Some forms of socialism feature State ownership of the means of production, while permitting some forms of private property.

Your opinions about our economic situation are noted.

Sorry about the misquote; it was “Patrick”, another leftie.  I do get you guys confused sometimes.  My apologies for that one.

The only legitimate role of government with regard to economics is to prevent fraud and provide a remedy- civil and criminal penalties- in case of fraud.

People have the mistaken notion that the free market has no rules.  But it most certainly does.  All our problems are due to government meddling.

Wow, another whiny little sack full of asshole, parroting leftard talkingpoints and toddling about with highschool level, pseudo-debate tactics. I wonder if they actually think this works?

Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

Oh, and Shaun, spare us your fauxoutrage and leftarded indignity, your embrace, and defense, of socialism tells us all we need to know about you.

Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem