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Thursday, November 09, 2006

Half Child, Half Fetus

Justice Scalia makes a grim observation during the on-going partial birth abortion hearings at the Supreme Court (which I recently posted on here):

In one of his few remarks during the two hours of arguments in the Supreme Court today about partial-birth abortion, Justice Scalia responded to Justice Stevens’ assertion that we should say “fetus” rather than child.. Justice Scalia said, “half-fetus, half-child.”

The point was clear. This is not simply about abortion. This is a hijacking of the delivery process for the purpose of killing the child. This is infanticide. I don’t know why Justice Scalia was otherwise so quiet, and Justice Alito completely silent during the arguments, but I know one reason I would be. The barbarity of partial-birth abortion is so self-evidently wrong that it is beyond dispute, beyond discussion, that it should not be legal in our country - or anywhere else, for that matter. Silence in this matter speaks volumes.

Scalia’s comment highlights the absurdity abortion’s current legal status here in America.  Inside the womb the unborn child is a “fetus.” A group of cells of no real consequences.  Outside the womb, the child is a person with full rights.  Taken to the extreme, this legal status has allowed a woman to go free after shooting herself in the stomach to kill her unborn child on its due date.  Had this woman waited a few hours to shoot her child after it had emerged from her womb she would have been put in jail as a murderer.  And rightfully so.  But because she has a “right” to an abortion, she literally got away with murder.

Here’s another interesting observation from the column linked above:

In the course of the two hours of oral arguments, the Court considered three key reasons why abortion advocates want the Court to strike down the Federal ban on partial-birth abortion: a) the ban lacks a health exception; b) the ban is too broad, that is, by its wording it actually bans most if not all second and third trimester D&E (dismemberment) abortions rather than just partial-birth abortion, and c) the ban is vague, and because the language is not clear and specific enough, doctors won’t know if it really applies to them.

Having listened carefully to the oral arguments and having read all the briefs, I don’t think the abortion advocates made their case, and I don’t think a majority of the Justices think they did either.

One of the most important admissions made in the arguments by the pro-abortion side was that we really have no measurements about what kind of a health need is met by partial-birth abortion. Their key argument, after all, is that the procedure must be allowed for the sake of women’s health. They admitted that the Court could ban this procedure if its health advantages were minimal rather than significant, yet they could not establish, by statistical measurement, the assertion that the health advantages of partial-birth abortion are significant.

Going beyond even partial birth abortion, I’d like to see pro-choice advocates explain what health need is served by abortion in general.  Certainly there are rare instances where a mother’s health is put in jeopardy by a pregnancy and I think most of us can agree that an abortion in such a situation is a legitimate option, but the vast majority of the time the only “need” served by abortion is the need of the mother to rid herself of the responsibility of having a child.

It’s going to be very interesting to see what comes of this case before the Supreme Court.

Comments

I am pro-choice for one reason and one only. I detest the idea of government sticking their noses into every facet of our lives. As with gay marriage, what one decides to do with ones own body is none of their business. Yet, when it comes to partial birth abortion, my soul rebels and tells my intelect, “ Shame!”. I can support abortion in the first trimester only intellectually. Emotionally, I recoil from the whole idea. Wonder which we should be guided by? Which, on the whole, intelect or emotion, are the most reliable guide? I don’t know. I just know that I, personally, even in a desparate single parent situation, with no money or means of taking care of that child, would opt for adoption to avoid abortion, no matter how heart-breaking the dicision was. I also know that I want to be free to make that decision for myself. Confusing, isn’t it, for some of us more moderate liberals?

Margie on November 9, 2006 at 09:57 am
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I detest the idea of government sticking their noses into every facet of our lives.

I detest that too, but that’s not what would happen if abortion were banned.  The government would simply be protecting the 5th amendment right to life that unborn children should have.


When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

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Rob on November 9, 2006 at 10:01 am

Margie: The reality is that the govt is doing that now, by elevating feticide to the status of a constitutional right.  Don’t you agree with govt of the people, by the people?  Why not let this “procedure” be a matter of local voting by the people impacted?


If you don’t know by now, don’t mess with it.

robert108 on November 9, 2006 at 10:04 am

BTW, I don’t mind the f-word(fetus), as long as they call it a human fetus.  It’s the truth.


If you don’t know by now, don’t mess with it.

robert108 on November 9, 2006 at 10:10 am

I’m afraid you are right this time. I just don’t like to admit it to myself. Can’t go against my concience in this, tho. Any more than I can pretend to be against the war in Iraq, even tho I fear it is not winnable with massive reenforcements,incurring the draft. Other than that, I swear that I am a genuine liberal.

Margie on November 9, 2006 at 10:15 am

I’m afraid you are right this time. I just don’t like to admit it to myself. Can’t go against my concience in this, tho. Any more than I can pretend to be against the war in Iraq, even tho I fear it is not winnable with massive reenforcements,incurring the draft. Other than that, I swear that I am a genuine liberal.

Margie on November 9, 2006 at 10:15 am
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Fortunately, the law doesn’t say that a few undeveloped cells should have the same rights as a fully functioning human being. Some people believe differently, but I don’t think the government should be making legislation based on the religious or emotional views of a select few.

Chad on November 9, 2006 at 10:17 am
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Religious view?  I’m an atheist, pal, but even I can recognize that a conceived child in the womb is a life.

And which law states that an unborn child isn’t a life?  I’d like a citation please.


When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

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Rob on November 9, 2006 at 10:25 am

What is the difference in accepting a legislative dicision from Congress and accepting one on a local level? If you consider abortion to be murder, than you can’t support it on any level. You can fight to change it on both.

Margie on November 9, 2006 at 10:29 am

Chad: What part of human fetus don’t you understand?  From the moment of conception, the individual DNA profile exists, and continues to grow and manifest until the death of the individual.  No matter how you would like to deny it, it’s a human being.


If you don’t know by now, don’t mess with it.

robert108 on November 9, 2006 at 10:33 am

Margie: Murder is illegal killing.  Right now, abortion isn’t murder, at least legally speaking.  I don’t favor illegalizing abortion, unless it is the will of the majority.(just like this last election)
What I want to end is the obscenity of using feticide for birth control purposes as a constitutional right.  That’s just wrong.


If you don’t know by now, don’t mess with it.

robert108 on November 9, 2006 at 10:35 am

Margie: If you don’t understand the difference between central govt and state/local govts, you just don’t understand the fundamental nature of this country.  We were founded on that very dialogue.


If you don’t know by now, don’t mess with it.

robert108 on November 9, 2006 at 10:36 am

I agree, Chad, when it comes to victimless personal lifestyle decisions. But your statement was broad enough to encompass just aboutevery felony on the books. The emotions of a few should yeild to the emotions of the many. Religious beliefs should have no place in government at all. It is quite possibe to have a concience without any religious beliefs.

Margie on November 9, 2006 at 10:37 am

Robert 108, what was the purpose of the latest elections if not to put people in power that we trust to make decisions for us without us having to go to the polls for every single law that gets passed? Sure, locallities differ in huge ways in their way of thinking. But after the marriage admentment that Virginians just voted to add discrimination into our constitution, pardon me if my faith in local judgement is a bit cynical at the moment.

Margie on November 9, 2006 at 10:42 am

Margie: How conveeenient!  When your side wins, it’s the will of the people to “...put people in power that we trust to make decisions for us...”, but when it’s the other side, it’s “discrimination”.
This is the difference between conservatives and lefties, IMO.  We believe in the principle of majority rule, even when it goes against it.  You only believe in majority rule when it goes your way.


If you don’t know by now, don’t mess with it.

robert108 on November 9, 2006 at 10:50 am

That should have been:  “...when it goes against us.”


If you don’t know by now, don’t mess with it.

robert108 on November 9, 2006 at 10:52 am
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I disagree Margie, I don’t think emotions should come into play at all. I think science and reason should be dictating this issue.

Chad on November 9, 2006 at 10:52 am

It is quite possibe to have a concience without any religious beliefs.

An interesting belief; conscience is generally considered to be the inner voice of the Higher Self.  Where do you think that comes from?


If you don’t know by now, don’t mess with it.

robert108 on November 9, 2006 at 10:55 am
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Chad’s right.  We should keep emotion out of it.  That way we can keep arbitrarily defining unborn children as “not alive” so that we can feel good about murdering the ones we don’t want.

Aren’t things convenient when we give in to self-delusion?


When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

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Rob on November 9, 2006 at 10:58 am

I believe in majority rule in any case, but I don’t have to like it or accept it as final. I can work to change it through proper channels. I’m feeling a little bitter right now because I allowed my hopes to get too high with the Times-Dispatch editorial stand against the admendment. Even tho their reasons were selfish: It’s ok to discriminate against gays, but we wouldn’t want to take the chance of it biting us on the behind by applying to heterosexuals as well who were unmarried. Nevertheless, the people have spoken and I reluctantly accept that. It will be a long, hard struggle to undo this mischief, but one day it will happen. Jim Crow, in its many manifestations is still alive and well in the South. But one day our evolution into civilized humans will be complete.

Margie on November 9, 2006 at 11:00 am

The government would simply be protecting the 5th amendment right to life that unborn children should have.

Same-sex couples should have the right to get married, too, but they don’t. If you want the Constitution to grant “unborn children” a right to life, petition for a Constitutional Amendment. Don’t cross your fingers and hope for activist judges.
Dave_Comet on November 9, 2006 at 11:03 am

Same-sex couples should have the right to get married, too, but they don’t.

Where does this “right” appear in our founding documents?  Marriage is not a “right” at all; it is a regulated institution, with requirements that are founded in the history of the human race.
Where is the equivalence between that and the principle of the Constitutional right to be protected from being deprived of life, liberty or property without due process of law?

As usual, Dave, you can’t think straight.


If you don’t know by now, don’t mess with it.

robert108 on November 9, 2006 at 11:07 am

Rob says:

Religious view?  I’m an atheist, pal, but even I can recognize that a conceived child in the womb is a life.

He thinks he’s an atheist but we’re working on him.

I think abortion is an abomination and partial birth abortions are outright murder.  A baby whether you call it a fetus or a baby is still a baby with a soul, a spirit, and the right to live.  Babies born at one pound or less are human beings.  And many of them survive.  Should we throw them away because they haven’t come to term?  Many babies who are aborted by partial birth abortions could survive.  What does the doctor do when one of them draws a breath?  I don’t even want to think about it.  It’s wrong, wrong, wrong.


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Carol on November 9, 2006 at 11:07 am

Robert, it comes, for the most part from a proper upbringing . I sent my kids to church to reinenforce moral values and I’m not ashamed of using the church for that purpose. Besides which they had a right to decide for themselves whether they would accept my own disbelief or form ideas of their own. How else but to be exposed to those ideas?  I’m not going to propose that goodness is inate in some people and missing in others through some genetic fluke, but morallity existed before organised religion did.

Margie on November 9, 2006 at 11:08 am

I’m an atheist, pal, but even I can recognize that a conceived child in the womb is a life.

So’s a cat. Can you highlight the appropriate section of the Constitution that says only the former has a Constitutionally protected right to life?
Dave_Comet on November 9, 2006 at 11:08 am

Where does this “right” appear in our founding documents?

Nowhere. Did you stop reading after that one sentence? I didn’t say they did have a right, I said they should have a right. (Similarly, the Cubs should win the World Series.) If I want same-sex couples to have a right to marry, I’d petition for a Constitutional Amendment. I explained all this in my last post, of which you apparently read just one sentence.

Dave_Comet on November 9, 2006 at 11:11 am

I can work to change it through proper channels.

Unless you are a fan of activist judges, the only proper channel is forming a majority who believes as you do.  In regards to the hijacking of the institution of marriage by the homosexual minority special interest group, that will probably never happen, and for good reason.  Nothing is stopping homosexuals from creating their own institution that suits their special needs.  They are free to do that at any time, and have the right to do so.  Why do they continue to try to hijack our institution?  Laziness? Selfishness?


If you don’t know by now, don’t mess with it.

robert108 on November 9, 2006 at 11:11 am
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So’s a cat. Can you highlight the appropriate section of the Constitution that says only the former has a Constitutionally protected right to life?

Are you honestly suggesting that the constitution applies to animals?

Honestly, the depths of absurdity you’re willing to stoop to in order to make your arguments never fails to make me laugh.


When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

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Rob on November 9, 2006 at 11:14 am

Rob: You forgot to say “...human life.” You know how Dave is: if you don’t spell it out, he pretends not to get it, and even when you do, he still doesn’t get it most of the time.


If you don’t know by now, don’t mess with it.

robert108 on November 9, 2006 at 11:16 am

Dave_comet

Explain to me what you mean by this.  I don’t get it.

So’s a cat. Can you highlight the appropriate section of the Constitution that says only the former has a Constitutionally protected right to life?


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Carol on November 9, 2006 at 11:17 am

Dave: As usual, you missed my point.  When you wrote:

Same-sex couples should have the right to get married, too, but they don’t. If you want the Constitution to grant “unborn children” a right to life, petition for a Constitutional Amendment.

It’s not necessary to have a constitutional amendment to protect life; your “equivalence” was bogus, as usual.  Did you miss that part?


If you don’t know by now, don’t mess with it.

robert108 on November 9, 2006 at 11:20 am

Are you honestly suggesting that the constitution applies to animals?

No. Are you honestly suggesting that it applies to fetuses?!?!?!

Dave_Comet on November 9, 2006 at 11:21 am

It’s not necessary to have a constitutional amendment to protect life

Okay. Then please post the part of the Constitution that says unborn children--fetuses--have a right to life. Thanks!
Dave_Comet on November 9, 2006 at 11:22 am

Margie:

...morallity existed before organised religion did.

How is this possible? Please explain.  Morality comes from religion, by definition.
For instance, if you are Islamic, it’s “moral” to kill your daughter for having premarital sex.


If you don’t know by now, don’t mess with it.

robert108 on November 9, 2006 at 11:23 am
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Are you honestly suggesting that it applies to fetuses?!?!?!

Yes.  A fetus is a baby is a person.  Albeit a not entirely developed human, but why should that matter?  Once a child is conceived how can you draw a line at any time after that and say “life doesn’t begin until this point?” Drawing that line between two phases of the child’s development in the womb is as absurd as drawing it between when the child crawls and when the child walks.

It’s all the same life.


When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

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Rob on November 9, 2006 at 11:23 am

Carol: I mean that the Constitution does not specifically state that fetuses have a right to life

Dave_Comet on November 9, 2006 at 11:24 am

Rob: Once again, so as not to confuse Dave, it’s “human fetus”.  We all know this, but Dave pretends he doesn’t.


If you don’t know by now, don’t mess with it.

robert108 on November 9, 2006 at 11:25 am

I’m sure that “they” could define away your right to life to Dave.  I wouldn’t stand for it but either you’re a human or not.


What’s going to happen to US industry when the global warming extremists like John McCain double the price of electricity?  I would think all these factories will close and set up in countries where they aren’t scared of technology.


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The Whistler on November 9, 2006 at 11:26 am
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Nothing is stopping homosexuals from creating their own institution that suits their special needs.  They are free to do that at any time, and have the right to do so.  Why do they continue to try to hijack our institution?  Laziness? Selfishness?

Wait, I thought you were atheist? Marriage is a religious institution…

Damn those lazy, selfish homos for wanting the same rights as everyone else!

Chad on November 9, 2006 at 11:27 am

robert108

You forgot to say “...human life.” You know how Dave is: if you don’t spell it out, he pretends not to get it, and even when you do, he still doesn’t get it most of the time.

I assume that when people say words they are using the actual definitions of those words, not ones that are made up or flat-out wrong. If you want me to assume you’re always lying or stupid, by all means, let me know.
Dave_Comet on November 9, 2006 at 11:27 am

Carol: I mean that the Constitution does not specifically state that fetuses have a right to life

It also doesn’t say that Dave has the right to life.  You think it should?  Or are you saying since Dave and fetuses aren’t mentioned specifically they don’t have the right to life?  Is that what you mean?


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Carol on November 9, 2006 at 11:28 am

Chad: I’m not an atheist, and have never said so.  Marriage undoubtedly existed before any organized religion; it is the primary building block of every human society, and it is exclusively heterosexual.  There might just be a very good reason for this.  Think about it, if you can.


If you don’t know by now, don’t mess with it.

robert108 on November 9, 2006 at 11:29 am

If you want me to assume you’re always lying or stupid, by all means, let me know.

I have no control over what you assume, Dave.  You are a reflex arguer, and seize on any small detail to maintain an argument, not matter how insignificant or ridiculous your premises may be.  Try to heal your ego.


If you don’t know by now, don’t mess with it.

robert108 on November 9, 2006 at 11:32 am
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Marriage undoubtedly existed before any organized religion; it is the primary building block of every human society, and it is exclusively heterosexual.

Please provide proof of your ridiculous assertion.

Chad on November 9, 2006 at 11:34 am

It also doesn’t say that Dave has the right to life.

No, but does say:

All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. (...) nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

Since I wsa A)born in the United States and B)a person, I qualify. Whew!
Dave_Comet on November 9, 2006 at 11:34 am

Damn those lazy, selfish homos for wanting the same rights as everyone else!

I repeat; they have the “right” to create their own institution for their own special interests.  Why don’t they?  You fail to answer the question.


If you don’t know by now, don’t mess with it.

robert108 on November 9, 2006 at 11:36 am

a person, I qualify. Whew!

Really!!!!  hum.


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Carol on November 9, 2006 at 11:37 am

Now apply that test--the “born in the United States” and “person” test--to fetuses, and see what you get. C’mon, it’ll be fun!

No? Okay, I’ll do it for you. Fetuses have not been “born in the United States” and they are not “persons” (have not acquired the characteristics of personhood.) So no protection in the Constitution. Too bad.

Dave_Comet on November 9, 2006 at 11:37 am

I don’t argee that morality is either relative or based strictly on religion.  No matter how you rationalize it, somethig is either good or bad, harmful to another or not. There are a lot of moral people who never went to church in their lives, don’t even have a nodding aquaintiance with God. According to anyones innate standards, the muslim example is immoral and I am sure they know that it is. They just let family pride overrule their sense of right and wrong.

Margie on November 9, 2006 at 11:39 am
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just a a fyi human fetuses have been legally recognized as having pre-birth right in both assault and medical malpractice suit that have resulted in the deaths of fetuses. In those cases, “murder” charges can be added to assault and malpractice charges with no disticntion paid to human development.

Rob B. on November 9, 2006 at 11:39 am

I wonder if Dave knows anybody who has ever lost a baby.  I think he needs to heal his soul as well as his ego.


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Carol on November 9, 2006 at 11:39 am

Chad: If you don’t know the truth of what I wrote, you are like a one-legged man in an ass-kicking contest.  I don’t cater to ignoramuses.  Do your own work.  Do you have any proof that there is a “right” to be married?  Do you have any proof that marriage was originally a religious institution?
Figure it out: Christianity is only about two thousand years old; marriage existed before Christianity.  Judaism is about six thousand years old; marriage existed before Judaism.  Got any proof of your statements?


If you don’t know by now, don’t mess with it.

robert108 on November 9, 2006 at 11:40 am
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and they are not “persons”

I don’t understand why emergence from a womb is necessary in order for a child to be declared a person.

Totally arbitrary and irrational.


When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

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Rob on November 9, 2006 at 11:42 am

just a a fyi human fetuses have been legally recognized as having pre-birth right in both assault and medical malpractice suit that have resulted in the deaths of fetuses. In those cases, “murder” charges can be added to assault and malpractice charges with no disticntion paid to human development.

Thank you Bob B


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Carol on November 9, 2006 at 11:44 am

I don’t understand why emergence from a womb is necessary in order for a child to be declared a person.

It’s not. Self-consciousness, sentience and rationality are.

Dave_Comet on November 9, 2006 at 11:44 am
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If you think Christianity and Judaism were the begining of organized religion, you’re even more sheltered and uninformed that I imagined.

Chad on November 9, 2006 at 11:45 am

I agree with Dave that tecnically, fetuses don’t have legal rights under our constitution, and never will have untill a national referendum defines at what point life begins to everyones satisfaction, and legislation is passed by consensus.

Margie on November 9, 2006 at 11:46 am
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A jury found a 25-year-old man guilty of capital murder Tuesday for the death of his girlfriend’s 5-month-old fetus in April. He was sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole.

http://www.caller.com/ccct/local_news/article/0,1641,CCCT_811_5056109,00.html

So it seems that birth isn’t needed in order for it to be called murder of to have the right to life protected.

Rob B. on November 9, 2006 at 11:46 am

I agree with Dave that tecnically, fetuses don’t have legal rights under our constitution, and never will have untill a national referendum defines at what point life begins to everyones satisfaction, and legislation is passed by consensus.

Margie on November 9, 2006 at 11:47 am

I don’t argee that morality is either relative or based strictly on religion.

In the first place, we started out talking about conscience, and you have changed the discussion to morality.

No matter how you rationalize it, somethig is either good or bad, harmful to another or not.

This is not always so clear cut.  For instance, vegans consider it bad and harmful to eat animal products, so their morality is dependent on their “religion” of veganism.  Understand?  Morality is relative; conscience is from a higher place.  Again, where do you think conscience comes from?

There are a lot of moral people who never went to church in their lives, don’t even have a nodding aquaintiance with God.

Any examples of this?

According to anyones innate standards, the muslim example is immoral and I am sure they know that it is. They just let family pride overrule their sense of right and wrong.

No. Their morality is bound up in their religion.  That is why they feel entitled to “kill all the infidels.” We are at war with them for that reason.


If you don’t know by now, don’t mess with it.

robert108 on November 9, 2006 at 11:47 am
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It’s not. Self-consciousness, sentience and rationality are.

According to you.  But that would mean that infants (which you argue are none of these things) aren’t affording constitutional protections for life, etc.

That isn’t a view even a big minority of Americans subscribe to, nor is it in keeping with the intent of the founders when they wrote the Constitution.


When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

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Rob on November 9, 2006 at 11:52 am

If you think Christianity and Judaism were the begining of organized religion, you’re even more sheltered and uninformed that I imagined.

I notice you answered none of my questions, choosing instead to misinterpret my two examples as something else.  If you have no answers, please be man enough to admit it.
Please furnish the name of the religion that originated marriage, with sufficient proof, of course.


If you don’t know by now, don’t mess with it.

robert108 on November 9, 2006 at 11:53 am

It’s not. Self-consciousness, sentience and rationality are.

Actually, it’s the existence of a complete human DNA profile.  That is what distinguishes humans from everything else.


If you don’t know by now, don’t mess with it.

robert108 on November 9, 2006 at 11:57 am

According to you.  But that would mean that infants (which you argue are none of these things) aren’t affording constitutional protections for life, etc. (...)That isn’t a view even a big minority of Americans subscribe to, nor is it in keeping with the intent of the founders when they wrote the Constitution.

What was their exact intent? You say it was to protect “unborn children” or fetuses… how do you know this?
Dave_Comet on November 9, 2006 at 12:01 pm
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108,

What exactly would you like me to prove? You’re the one who made the ridiculous assertions, the burden of proof lies with you.

I guess, since you’re not an atheist afterall, that this is how you think things are done though - make up stories and then ask others to disprove them.

Chad on November 9, 2006 at 12:01 pm

Only sematics, Robert. Aren’t a sense of right and wrong, what we call morallity not the same thing as having a conscience? Are you saying that all the primitive tribes not exposed to religion have no sense of right and wrong? I do not believe that some Creator instilled a concience in me when I was born, so that I would know right from wrong, nor do I believe these tribesmen, worshiping the sun, perhaps, are without morallity , picked up from their parents and their enviroment. Perhaps a matter of evolutionary survival? Your chances of surviving are much higher when you treat each other right and don’t make enemies.

Margie on November 9, 2006 at 12:07 pm

Wait, I thought you were atheist? Marriage is a religious institution…

Your original statement.  You are obviously asserting that marriage was created by religion, otherwise you have no point.  Prove it.


If you don’t know by now, don’t mess with it.

robert108 on November 9, 2006 at 12:09 pm

Only sematics, Robert. Aren’t a sense of right and wrong, what we call morallity not the same thing as having a conscience?

No, they’re not.  Conscience is a higher state, since morality, by definition, depends on some external set of values.  Conscience is an internal thing.


If you don’t know by now, don’t mess with it.

robert108 on November 9, 2006 at 12:12 pm

We’ll have to agree to disagree on that one, Robert.

Marriage is a legal state, performed sometimes by the church, but not necessarily. It awards certain responsibilites and priviledges to only certain people. That makes it discriminatory and wrong, when those same things are denied to others.

Whether a fetus can be defined as a human being with full rights is something that will eventually take a national consenus to settle. It might be prosecutable in certain localities and states as murder when a fetus is killed along with the mother, but is not nationally done.

Margie on November 9, 2006 at 12:28 pm

We’ll have to agree to disagree on that one, Robert.

Marriage is a legal state, performed sometimes by the church, but not necessarily. It awards certain responsibilites and priviledges to only certain people. That makes it discriminatory and wrong, when those same things are denied to others.

Whether a fetus can be defined as a human being with full rights is something that will eventually take a national consenus to settle. It might be prosecutable in certain localities and states as murder when a fetus is killed along with the mother, but is not nationally done.

Margie on November 9, 2006 at 12:28 pm

r108

That is what distinguishes humans from everything else.

Yes, but we’re talking about “persons” (who are protected by the 14th Amendment), not “humans” (who are not).

Try to follow along.

Dave_Comet on November 9, 2006 at 12:29 pm

Margie: Do I have the “right” to all the privileges of being a college professor, if I haven’t met the requirements?  No.  It’s the same with marriage.  By the way, gay people have the right to be married, if they meet the requirements.  No one is excluded from marriage simply because they are gay.  If there is one man and one woman, not too closely related, and above a certain age, they can be married.  It’s not that complex.  Marriage has been created by society over many thousands of years, not by a judge or a small special interest group.


If you don’t know by now, don’t mess with it.

robert108 on November 9, 2006 at 03:19 pm

I do not believe that some Creator instilled a concience in me when I was born…

Where did it come from, then?  Still waiting for that answer…


If you don’t know by now, don’t mess with it.

robert108 on November 9, 2006 at 03:21 pm

Sorry, Robert, caught up in the blog that Rob allowed me to post. Can’t walk and chew gum.

I developed a concience from my enviroment, from my parents teachings, from the teachings of the church, from my teachers at school, and being an avid reader from an early age, probably from books. No Creater installed in my genetic make-up. I acquired it myself.

Marriage is recently being legally defined as being between one man and one woman. By custom and tradition, it always has been. That qualification is not necessarily a valid one, A majority saying that it is makes it so. That can be changed and should be.

Margie on November 9, 2006 at 03:34 pm

A majority saying that it is makes it so. That can be changed and should be.

I guess you don’t agree with majority rule when it goes against your partisan ideology, then.  That makes you an autocrat, not a democrat.  Can’t have it both ways.

I liked your answer to my question; thanks for taking the time.  One more question: When you were encountering your influences during the time you were growing up, what guided you to choose the ones you chose?  Hint:  It was your conscience.  Otherwise, you wouldn’t have known which choices to make.  Think about it.


If you don’t know by now, don’t mess with it.

robert108 on November 9, 2006 at 03:40 pm

How do you explain the people who don’t listen to this supposed appendage we recieve at birth? Did God or nature not give them one?

I believe absolutely in obeying majority rule. I also believe in working hard to change it when you don’t agree with it. Ain’t demoracy wonderful? It should never stagnate, because when we become party clones, it dies.

Margie on November 9, 2006 at 04:00 pm

Got to go. Good night, all and thanks for an interesting evening.

Margie on November 9, 2006 at 04:03 pm
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