Home Mobile Archives Reader Blogs Register Login

Sunday, October 30, 2005

Grand Forks Smoking Ban Having Mixed Results

Grand Forks Herald - It's been about 2 months since Grand Forks' smoking ban went into effect and, for businesses that expected to see the biggest impact, the record has been decidedly mixed.

Red Ray Lanes bowling alley, for example, actually might have gained a few customers because bowlers no longer have to put up with secondhand smoke, said owner Jim Flynn.

On the other end of the spectrum, the Bingo Palace is losing money. "Significant amounts of money," said Ron Gibbens, president of the North Dakota Association for the Disabled, which runs the bingo parlor. His customers have been heading to East Grand Forks to spend their money, he said.

The East Grand Forks City Council, however, is mulling a ban that, in some ways, would be less restrictive than Grand Forks'. The question is how many businesses will have the same experience as Red Ray Lanes and how many will experience what the Bingo Palace is going through.


Critics of this and other smoking bans could have warned people that this sort of thing was coming.

You know what would have been a better solution to this whole mess? No solution at all. If Red Ray Lanes can see a customer increase by banning smoking, then let that business institute its own ban. That way the people can, individually, make their own decision about smoking without having to create a sweeping ban that could negatively impact other businesses. If people want to be in the smoke (or don't mind it), they'll go to Red Ray Lanes. If they want out of it, they'll go somewhere else. Or they won't go at all.

This idea that it is the government's responsibility to protect people from something like second hand smoke is ridiculous. It is the people's responsibility to protect themselves from second hand smoke. Just as it is their responsibility to protect themselves from things like overeating or taking too many sleeping pills.

If enough people decide that they want to protect themselves from second hand smoke then businesses (bars, restaurants, bowling alleys, etc.) will adapt. They aren't going to let themselves be put out of business, so they'll figure out a way to cater to these people. But regardless of how these businesses handle the situation, what we cannot do is use the law to dictate whether or not they can allow smoking.

We're not talking about public places here, we're talking about private property. If a business owner wants to allow something like smoking on their property then they should be allowed to do that. People who complain can, and should, be told that they can take their business elsewhere if they don't like the environment.

Sadly, though, that's not what has happened. Instead a group of people have used the rule of law to enforce a certain kind of behavior on the people. Which, in this particular instance, maybe a lot of us don't have a problem with it. The thing I worry about is the next instance, when they'll be trying to ban salt or something.

We cannot have freedom unless we truly have freedom. That begins with small freedoms like the right to dictate whether or not you'll allow something like smoking on your private property.

Comments

Avatar for Say Anything - North Dakota’s Most Popular P

[...] Grand Forks Smoking Ban Having Mixed Results By Rob on October 30, 2005 at 9:14 pm Grand Forks Herald - It’s been about 2 months since Grand Forks’ smoking ban went into effect and, for businesses that expected to see the biggest impact, the record has been decidedly mixed. [...]

Avatar for Dave

F***ing wonderful. I have free choice to kill my unborn children but I don’t have the same privilege for smoking or wearing a seat belt.

Ha ha! There are certain aspects of the liberal ideology that I just don’t understand and probably never will.

Though, if memory serves me correct, the smoking ban passed both Republican-controlled houses by a pretty wide margin and was signed into law by our Republican Governor (which was one of the first things Hoeven has done I disagreed with.) It looks like we were damned either way on this one.

Dave on October 31, 2005 at 02:10 pm
Avatar for docdave

F***ing wonderful.  I have free choice to kill my unborn children but I don’t have the same privilege for smoking or wearing a seat belt.

docdave on October 31, 2005 at 02:10 pm
Rob
Rob
19471 comments
Send a private message

All politicians are stupid, it’s just that some are less stupid than others.  The problem is that when politicians do things like this it’s not out of greed or anything, it’s just that they actually think they are using their power to effect good change.

The fact that they are trampling personal liberties and private property rights doesn’t even enter their minds most of the time.


When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

robport.gif border=0

Rob on November 1, 2005 at 03:12 pm
Avatar for Brendt

If Red Ray Lanes can see a customer increase by banning smoking, then let that business institute its own ban.

While not advocating the law (although I’m ecstatic about the consequences of a similar state-wide law here in Georgia), there’s a fatal flaw in that statement. If Red Ray Lanes isn’t a totally independent business, odds are very high that they couldn’t make the decision to ban smoking. And anyone that has worked for a company of more than 5 people knows that the “home office” would be terrified of change, so there’d be no point in RRL’s management suggesting it, even if they could show beyond the shadow of a doubt that business would quadruple.

Perhaps it’s fatalistic, but I figure our liberties went to h*ll a long time ago, with no possible chance of recovery. I’m just glad that if the gov’t is gonna trample on rights, at least this time they trampled on the “right” of someone else to involve me in their addiction.

Brendt on November 5, 2005 at 10:11 pm
Avatar for likwidshoe

I’m just glad that if the gov’t is gonna trample on rights, at least this time they trampled on the “right” of someone else to involve me in their addiction.

That supposes that you have a “right” to be on someone else’s property. You do not.

likwidshoe on November 6, 2005 at 12:11 am
Avatar for Brendt

That supposes that you have a “right” to be on someone else’s property.

Um, no, it doesn’t at all. It doesn’t even come within the same area code as that presumption.

Brendt on November 6, 2005 at 05:12 pm
Avatar for likwidshoe

Um, no, it doesn’t at all. It doesn’t even come within the same area code as that presumption.

You had said before, “I’m just glad that if the gov’t is gonna trample on rights, at least this time they trampled on the “right” of someone else to involve me in their addiction.”

Now what is that, if not a presumption that you have a right to be on someone else’s property?

People don’t have a right to involve you in their addiction, that much you are right about. If someone is smoking on their property and you don’t like it, you may leave that property.

likwidshoe on November 6, 2005 at 10:11 pm
Avatar for Brendt

Now what is that, if not a presumption that you have a right to be on someone else’s property?

Sigh. Why am I the only person in the world without the ability to divine what others’ attitudes and thoughts are?

If business owner A invites patrons B and C to be on his/her property for whatever reason, that doesn’t translate to B claiming a “right” to be on that property.

But lets say that A makes claims/guarantees to B that C won’t inflict his addiction on B (more commonly known as the “non-smoking section"). But, unfortunately A can’t live up to those claims, either because:

* boundaries for addiction-participation were drawn up by drunken lunatics on crack, or
* C raises such holy h*ll about his “right” to engage in his addiction wherever he pleases without regard to the afore-mentioned boundaries, that it’s more in A’s interest to patronize C than to live up to his claims to B

(BTW, neither of these situations is at all uncommon around here—or at least weren’t before the law was enacted. If such is not the case where you are, be thankful.)

In either situation, B is certainly free to leave the premises, and has no right to be there, as he was invited by A in the first place. Further, B has no recourse, but to not patronize that establishment again in order to avoid a repeat of the scenario.

Now, B does have just as much right to be there as C does—specifically, none.  And C has no more right to inflict his addiction on B, than B has to spit in C’s food.

But pardon me if I’m happy when—given the choice of two—the inconvenience falls on the drug addict and not the guy who is trying to—radical concept—eat in a restaurant.

Brendt on November 6, 2005 at 11:11 pm
Rob
Rob
19471 comments
Send a private message

I’m just gonna accept the fact that I’m gonna be misinterpreted no matter how many different ways I say this, and I’ll shut up now.

How did I misinterpret you?


When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

robport.gif border=0

Rob on November 8, 2005 at 04:11 pm
Avatar for Brendt

I’m just gonna accept the fact that I’m gonna be misinterpreted no matter how many different ways I say this, and I’ll shut up now.

Brendt on November 8, 2005 at 04:11 pm
Rob
Rob
19471 comments
Send a private message

You’ve got a pretty skewed sense of liberty Brendt.

If A wants to allow smoking on his property, isn’t it up to both B and C to decide if they want to be in said smoke?  And, if they don’t, decide to patronize another establishment?

Seems like a simpler solution to me.  Unfortunately, some people just can’t get by in life without trying to make other people conform to their wishes.


When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

robport.gif border=0

Rob on November 8, 2005 at 04:12 pm
Page 1 of 1        

Post a Comment


Before commenting, please recite:

Grant me the serenity to ignore the trolls,
the courage to debate with honest opponents,
and the wisdom to know the difference.

Name   
Email   
URL   
Human?
  
 

Upload Image    

Remember my personal information

Notify me of follow-up comments?

Note: Notifications will only be sent to confirmed email addresses.

    

By submitting your comment you agree to our terms of service.