I’m with MOFAL here. Georgia is no shining light for Democracy under Saakashvili.

And Bat One… The Ossetians have been vying for autonomy since 1922. The majority are ethnically different from the Georgians. There isn’t any comparison with the two, except in a very tongue in cheek manner. We should respect their rights too, not just the Georgian governments.

You are the asshole who toddled into multiple threads and told us that Lebanon belongs to Syria, and they should just get used to it. Now you are telling us that Georgia belongs to Russia, and they should just get used to it. Next you will tell us that Poland and Ukraine belong to Russia and they should just get used to it, and that Europeans have no right to buy gas and oil because that to belongs to Russia and they should just get used to freezing.

You idea of honor and honesty is for everyone to surrender to socialism and Fundamentalist Islamic terrorists. Fuck you.

Leftists will constantly side with the Soviets and give them the benefit of the doubt.

Any ambiguity in situations like this — using history as a guide — should be resolved in the favor of the victims. (*) Those who survive the massacres, those who are not interned, those who manage not to disappear into the yellow walls of the Lubyanka or who survive years of privation, starvation and the extreme conditions of Soviet GULAGs have managed to get the truth out.

The truth invariably is that the Soviets have lied to us. They accuse their victims of aggression and mask their crimes with self-adulation.

History is instructive in situations where Soviet suppression of the truth has created ambiguity. Commies are bad, bad people. Evil is too bland a term to convey what unspeakable horrors they have inflicted on their fellow man.

Don’t try to analyze this situation in isolation from the history of Communism. And while that entire region, the Middle East, the Balkans and pretty much most all of Asia is a history of blood and brutality, Georgia has been trying to ally itself to the West and become a new democracy.

Make no mistake THAT is the causa belli that provoked a Soviet attack.

All the rest is smoke screen, or as the Russians say: Maskirovka

(*) The Soviet Union continued to deny the massacres until 1990, when it finally acknowledged the massacre by the NKVD, as well as the subsequent cover-up.

Sorry Sparkie,
Bat One has not argued for the retention of South Ossetia by Georgia (not in this thread any way). I understand though – it’s easy to mistake one “rightie” for another, they all sound the same!

Russia didn’t bend to anybody’s will. They proved their point and they backed off. They never were intending a long term occupation.

BO’s won election as an Illinois Senator and as a U.S. Senator because of his opponent’s divorce proceedings being “leaked” to the press.

They weren’t “leaked” to the press. It is unusual for divorce proceedings to be sealed and since he was married to super hot Jeri Ryan (Seven of Nine) the press filed to have the records unsealed. They were and they hit the jackpot when the documents revealed the sorted details of their sex life.

e,

I was merely adding to your sarcasm. You know how often I take what you write seriously!

By all means attend to those toenails!

Russia had already “set up camp” in these regions several years ago.

Although the two regions were considered part of Georgia after the Soviet Union fell, I don’t think that either of them ever accepted the legitimacy of their inclusion.

Let’s see here… Russian “peacekeepers” in an area disputed between Russia and one of its recent “breakaway” republics. Think about that for a minute!

Now, are there any doubts that those on the Left got their dishonest misappropriation of language from Moscow’s old Soviet communists.

Or, was it the UN?

Then why did Russia go through the cities and villages of Abkhazia and Ossetia passing out Russian passports and citizenship papers like candy at an Easter Parade? Have done that regularly since 1991.

You are not honestly asking me to believe that all those good citizens were not thoroughly documented until 1991? Are you?

And you are certainly not asking me to believe it is in the best interests of the citizens of Europe to just bow down to Vladmir Putin? Are you?

2Hotel9 on August 14, 2008 at 03:52 pm

I don’t know why Russia went through the cities and villages
of Abkhazia and Ossetia (never heard of it before either) passing out passports.
What are you saying to me? Easter parade? Never seen one. I haver never seen an Easter parade, and certainly never seen an Easter parade where candy was “passed out”
Certainly, If what you say is true, those people receiving the passports could have used them as kindling if they did not want them.
I am not asking you to do what you are saying I am asking you to do.
I am saying put emotion to the side and be honest about the situation. The Georgians thought they were slick. They gambled, got busted and are paying a heavy price.
As far as your last question, it is a bullshit question designed to apeal to emotion. I do not want the Europeans to bow down to anyone.
Also your last question and cooncern for the Europeans is highly suspect, given the fact that Europeans are regularly ridiculed and are the butt of jokes here at SAB by you and those you refer to as the “gang”.
If we are to prevail over our real and perceived enemies whe have to do it honorably and honestly.

How dumb to these people think we are?

I guess we’ll get the answer to that in November. Obama and the Dems are staking their entire campaign on the assumed naivety of the American voters.

Carrick…I agree that it is unlikely that the Americans endorsed or approved Georgia’s moves in advance and that Georgia probably assumed too much. I’m with Hawk though on Russia’s concern for its image or lack thereof. I can’t imagine who would physically stand with Georgia against the Russians and thus Russia’s incursion should be viewed as pretty low risk from their perspective. By marching into Georgia Russia demonstrated that it can…now it can fall back into the autonomous regions as you suggest.

I think that Russia has delivered a message to the other former Soviet satellites and republics…”We’re back babies!” or something to that effect.

2Hotel9. This is what you said: “The separatists have been created by Putin and his banditry. Period. Ossetia is a non-entity, historically and factually. A gollum manufactured by Russia, and nothing more“

My above post ,ellinas on August 14, 2008 at 09:14 am
shows that you are wrong, on your assertion that “Ossetia is a non-entity, historically and factually.”
Now you are tying a different method to advance your agenda.
Your accusations are without merit, just like your claims about Ossetia being a creation of Putin.

The separatists have been created by Putin and his bandity. Period. Ossetia is a non-entity, historically and factually. A gollum manufactured by Russia, and nothing more.

You are still drunk. Nothing of what you accuse me and others is true. It is a figment of your drunk imagination.
I suggest you do a search of what has happened to the thriving communities of Greeks that lived for over two thousand years in Georgia.
If you wish to delve and exist in the past, than the whole region belongs to Greece.

It takes two to tango!

I would suggest looking into the protests of last November (the so-called Second Rose Revolution) that Saakashvili stamped out, killing, intimidating and arresting his detractors before calling for ‘Free and Fair’ elections – that were free and fair insofar as many of his opposition were behind bars or missing.
He is a hypocrite, who came to power on the back of one (sort-of) non-violent protest (he and his buddies stormed parliament [not very non-violent, IMO]), who then suppressed the right of the Georgian people to protest peacefully.
This is not a defense of the Russians, who themselves are pretty despicable, both in terms of human rights and their actions within the Caucasus, but an attempt to paint a picture of a Georgia that is not the beacon of freedom and democracy that some would like it to be, particularly those in the British and US administrations.

There is seems to some contention here over who Georgia belongs to and, more to the point, who South Ossetia belongs to. It would seem clear that South Ossetia belongs to the Ossetians, as they have had semi-autonomy for twenty and with a much more even mix of ethnic and religious groupings are unwilling to be incorporated into a greater Georgian state that has declared itself to be a Christian Democracy (one which discriminates against non-Christians).

The Georgians have long sought to define their borders on the arbitrary lines drawn on a map by a bunch of murderous Communists as they partitioned up their share of the former Russian empire into semi-autonomous Communist states. It surprises me that some here at SAB are so willing to accept Lenin’s decrees without question.

So, leftards are going to stick with the lie that Georgia did not exist prior to the Soviet Union.

I’m curious where this bomb comes from. I’ve quickly scanned the thread and can’t find anyone who claims that Georgia didn’t exist although I may have missed it. I did see you claiming that S.O. is an artificial entity and we know that’s not true.

Overheated rhetoric perhaps?

You just get stupider and funnier. Tell us again how your religion, Socialism, is going to save humanity from evil, decadent freedom. We never tire of laughing at that shit.

2Hotel9 on August 17, 2008 at 01:06 pm

Still drunk I see. Nothing to say other than recite stupid accusations.
Still have not told us what to do with the Ossetians.

The Ossetians do not want to be part of Gergia. And still have not told us what to do with the Ossetians that do not want to be a Georgian province.

For heavens sakes, E, its been nearly 150 years since the American Civil War. Don’t you think its about time you Democrats stopped siding with the secessionists? After all, you main man (H) was singing Lincoln’s praises just this afternoon.

That is up to the Georgians and Ossetians, remove Russians from the equation. It is none of their business.

I agree it’s none of Russia’s business..

The question I have is why you think that South Ossetia is Georgia’s business either? After all it wasn’t part of Georgia until Lenin gave it to them in 1922… Georgian ownership of South Ossetia is an artifice of the old Soviet Empire.

And you defended Syria dominating Lebanon. Now cry some more for us. You routinely screech that everyone should just bow down to your religion, socialism. Fuck you.

That is up to the Georgians and Ossetians, remove Russians from the equation. It is none of their business.

2Hotel9 on August 17, 2008 at 03:05 pm

Still drunk I see. The Ossetians do not want to be part of Gergia.
And still have not told us what to do with the Ossetians that do not want to be3 a Georgian province.

So evey place that Russia hands out pasports and citizenship papers is allowed to become its country? That means America can do it too.

Mike I read your report, and I think your guy totally misanalyzed things.

As I mentioned about the ground forces that appear to have been used were predominately light infantry under control of the MVD. Rather than a two prong attack on Georgia, the incursions amounted to an escalation of the Russian presence in two semi-autonomous territories that were nominally under Georgia control, but just nominally. (Georgia effectively lost control of South Ossetia in the early 1990s).

The status quo was Russia had a presence before the invasion in South Ossetia and Abkhazia, and they will have a presence afterwards, just a larger number of people.

I am also doubtful that the United States nodded approval for the Georgia incursion into South Ossetia. That’s just uninformed speculation at this point….

The main thing that has happened in my opinion, is a cementing of opinion against Russia in the world scene, as is witnessed by the one-sided view that many here have of the conflict. In other words, this has been a public relations disaster for Russia, and Georgia has come out looking like an complete innocent, even if they were the fox in the chicken coup to start with, so to speak.

meant to say … just a larger number of people and a shift in force composition.

Anybody have questions about why its necessary to maintain self-defense now? Too bad with their socialistic programs, Europe can’t afford it.

Hawk, I agree with you on this one. This incident was provoked by an over the top crackdown of South Ossetia dissidents by the Georgian government, possibly including direct attacks on Russian “peace keeping” forces. While there are things to like about Georgia, their extreme balkan-like nationalism isn’t one of them. I think the best solution is restoration of independence for Ossetia, but I don’ think that’s in the cards here.

As far as I can tell, the ground invasion, like the “peace keeping” mission, was limited to a special-like group under the control of Putin (MVD forces). This group was in no way large enough to control a country the size and geographical diversity of Georgia, and even if that had been the cases, events have proven the Russian air force to be largely ineffective militarily, and you can’t run an armored invasion without effective air control. Anyway Zig over here has more on the force composition.

Are there going to be negative consequences to this? No, because the only ones who can realistically punish Russia is Europe, by embargoing their oil. Ain’t going to happen, and the Russians knew this before they invaded. A real invasion by the actual Russian army most likely would have been a debacle on the scale of the Poland misadventure in the 1980s…

2H9…I didn’t say that but I did miss that comment. FWIW, I think Georgia has a right to exist and Russia over reacted to the Georgian military action in South Ossetia and they have to get out of Georgia. Something has to be done to accommodate the Ossetian desire for autonomy however since it’s not simply a Russian construct and they clearly resent being assigned to Georgia.

Carrick…I agree that the Russians will stay in S.O. and Abk but I expect that, with their point made, they’ll vacate Georgia itself. Stratfor has an interesting analysis up which is available for everyone to read. I don’t think it’s a very good time to be living in a former Soviet republic.

The people that were there before were ACoE and MP types. Having light infantry groups is a new thing.

Putin and his KGB разбойник have created this entire conflict.
The population of Ossetia and Abkhazia have only one route to independence, through the nation of Georgia. Under Putin and the Mafiosi they have only slavery, starvation, and death. Then again, that is what you want for the people of Greece and America, so I am not surprised you advocate it for the people of Georgia, Ukraine, Azerbaijan, etc etc.

Tell us again what a great American you are, as you call for millions of innocent people to be enslaved, starved and murdered.

Yes. You are supposed to believe that Russia ignored President Bush, and other world leaders, but complied because Obama asked him to.

And the next time you trim your toenails, if you’ll take the clippings and put them under your pillow at night…

They should be out of Georgia proper shortly I’d expect. I agree with the comments that Georgia overplayed whatever cards they thought they were holding. Interesting that Sarkozy had a role to play…I’m sure that he was coached by Obama.

As a “clinger” of Scotch Irish descent, I know what BO and his condescending socialist associates think of people like me.

The arrogance of the Dhimmicrats is truly amazing, considering their failed social programs and dismal foreign policy record.

BO’s won election as an Illinois Senator and as a U.S. Senator because of his opponent’s divorce proceedings being “leaked” to the press. His accomplishments in Illinois – voting for any or all tax measures lockstep with his leftie friends in the legislature. His accomplishments an a U.S. Senator – running for POTUS.

This posting by Rob should have been titled: “The Audacity of Dope,” as in pipe dream.

And you defended Syria dominating Lebanon. Now cry some more for us. You routinely screech that everyone should just bow down to your religion, socialism. Fuck you.
2Hotel9 on August 16, 2008 at 10:43 am

Are you still drunk? You are an alcoholic. You lie without shame. You have no honor or honesty. You compromised those values long ago.

We’re supposed to believe that Russia ignored President Bush, and other world leaders, but complied because Obama asked him to?

How dumb to these people think we are?

By Rob on August 12, 2008 at 09:14 am

Yes. You are supposed to believe that Russia ignored President Bush, and other world leaders, but complied because Obama asked him to.

These people think y’all are very dumb.

Now keep asking more dumb questions.

Funny, doing a quickie search, and taking wiki as the source since it is the only one the political left accepts, we find that Georgia, roughly fitting into its currently delineated borders, existed as far back as the 1600s. Imagine that.

Oh, and I got the Stratfor article in my email update, it is good.

Obama has requested that the sun come up again tomorrow and folks are ‘specting mother nature will comply, submit, etc.

No, actually, you were commenting in support of LBurn who was pro-Georgia. arguing that these regions need to be reabsorbed by Georgia.

bat
it wasn’t explicit. i guess i inferred it from your comments which referred to the Ossetians as people of Georgia who are in danger of “loosing their freedom”. here is your comment

The people of Georgia… are in much danger of losing their freedom.

…but I guess you were arguing for an independent Ossetia eh? Because they are clearly in danger of loosing freedoms on both sides, to the Russians and to Shaskavilli (sp?).