Gov. Tim Kaine: Russia Bent To Obama’s Demands With Cease Fire

First, the idea that the Russians are ceasing their aggressions in Georgia is a shaky one, at best. Second, the idea that they’re going to cease those aggressions because Obama told them to is just plain laughable.

It was a bad crisis for the world. It required tough words but also a smart approach to call on the international community to step in. And I’m very, very happy that the Senator’s request for a ceasefire has been complied with by President Medvedev.

These mental midgets do know Obama’s not the President yet, right? And that yesterday the actual President called for Russia to halt its aggression, a call that was joined by the political leadership of France, Germany as well? And that even now the Russians still appear to be attacking in Georgia despite claims of a cease fire?
We’re supposed to believe that Russia ignored President Bush, and other world leaders, but complied because Obama asked him to?
How dumb to these people think we are?

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  • http://Array carrick

    Mike, I really don’t expect the Russians to retreat from these semi-autonomous regions. In fact, I will be completely shocked if they do. They have a role as protecting people of Russian ethnic origin from what they regard as ethnic cleansing tendencies on the part of the Georgian government. If they left now, they would be leaving the people who are fighting for autonomy out to dry. So I fully expect that the Russians are planning on setting up camp in South Ossetia and Abkhazia, and once Georgia accepts that new reality, things will gradually go back to a static situation.

    On the other hand there is a bit of confusion on CNN here. They are showing a video of Georgian troops crossing the border into South Ossetia, and claiming they are Russian troops invading Abkhazia.

    How dumb can these journalist types get?

  • carrick

    I’m with MOFAL here. Georgia is no shining light for Democracy under Saakashvili.

    And Bat One… The Ossetians have been vying for autonomy since 1922. The majority are ethnically different from the Georgians. There isn’t any comparison with the two, except in a very tongue in cheek manner. We should respect their rights too, not just the Georgian governments.

  • carrick

    Hawk, Russian does care. They like their G8 status. It is western money that is fueling their economy. Of course they care.

    But I imagine the one-sided Western reaction has done wonders for Putin…. “us against them”.

  • 2Hotel9

    You are the asshole who toddled into multiple threads and told us that Lebanon belongs to Syria, and they should just get used to it. Now you are telling us that Georgia belongs to Russia, and they should just get used to it. Next you will tell us that Poland and Ukraine belong to Russia and they should just get used to it, and that Europeans have no right to buy gas and oil because that to belongs to Russia and they should just get used to freezing.

    You idea of honor and honesty is for everyone to surrender to socialism and Fundamentalist Islamic terrorists. Fuck you.

  • carrick

    2H9, I certainly agree with you that the separatists are being encouraged by Moscow, and that Putin is a thug, but I disagree that this is all there is to this story. They have a legitimate beef with Georgia. See for example Georgia’s behavior during the 1990-91 war with South Ossetia.

    And for all I am concerned about Russian aggression, it is Georgia that was in the wrong here (and completely stupid in how they proceeded, esp. by killing Russian troops that had been securing a border check point). Georgia tried to reclaim something that was historically never theirs, but in fact was annexed by them with the agreement of Lenin.

    The real problem is going to be that they will now realize how easy it is to reacquire lost territory, and I fear we are in the phase where you will see open Russian aggression, rather than just responses to egregious behavior by their neighbor.

    And I think that is a point we all can agree to here.

  • http://sayanythingblog.com/readers/entry/homosexuality_is_wrong_-_a_compendium move_zig

    Leftists will constantly side with the Soviets and give them the benefit of the doubt.

    Any ambiguity in situations like this — using history as a guide — should be resolved in the favor of the victims. (*) Those who survive the massacres, those who are not interned, those who manage not to disappear into the yellow walls of the Lubyanka or who survive years of privation, starvation and the extreme conditions of Soviet GULAGs have managed to get the truth out.

    The truth invariably is that the Soviets have lied to us. They accuse their victims of aggression and mask their crimes with self-adulation.

    History is instructive in situations where Soviet suppression of the truth has created ambiguity. Commies are bad, bad people. Evil is too bland a term to convey what unspeakable horrors they have inflicted on their fellow man.

    Don’t try to analyze this situation in isolation from the history of Communism. And while that entire region, the Middle East, the Balkans and pretty much most all of Asia is a history of blood and brutality, Georgia has been trying to ally itself to the West and become a new democracy.

    Make no mistake THAT is the causa belli that provoked a Soviet attack.

    All the rest is smoke screen, or as the Russians say: Maskirovka

    (*) The Soviet Union continued to deny the massacres until 1990, when it finally acknowledged the massacre by the NKVD, as well as the subsequent cover-up.

  • ellinas

    By the same token right wing nuts do not want a democratic America. Thus they retreat in the woods, form armed militias, and train for doomsday. They hide in their holes, replete with survival gear weapons and food staples (ala year 2000)and wait for the world to end.

    My point being there are nuts on both sides. To point out the nuts on one side only is hypocritical.
    To say that we, the Democrats want Russia to subjugate Georgia, is a fallacy created by right wing nuts and pseudo-patriotic Republicans. Nothing could be further from the truth. Some say there are two sides to every story. I say there are three sides to the story:
    1)What Russia says happened.
    2)What Georgia says happened.
    3)What really happened.
    The most important point being #3.

    Since we are all speculating here, we really do know what precipitated this war/invasion.
    Thus calling names when you don’t have the facts is …downright nutty.

  • http://manoffireandlight.blog.co.uk/ ManofFireandLight

    Sorry Sparkie,
    Bat One has not argued for the retention of South Ossetia by Georgia (not in this thread any way). I understand though – it’s easy to mistake one “rightie” for another, they all sound the same!

  • http://sayanythingblog.com/readers/entry/homosexuality_is_wrong_-_a_compendium move_zig

    By the same token Leftards don’t want to be part of the United States. Were they to start their own terror campaign (e.g Weathermen, SLA, MOVE, etc..) would the US government not be justified in sending in police to quell the disturbances?

    If Canada or Mexico wanted to get involved, would they be justified in sending in their own troops, tanks and aircraft?

    Clearly, the analogy is not exact, but considering the Russians have traditionally transplanted their own people into the vassal states and instigate pretexts, the reality is that the Russians have set this action up from Day 1.

    They hope their brutal invasion, complete with rape and forced labor, will intimidate other nations in the region from fully joining NATO and integrating their defenses, etc… Hence the nuke threat to Poland.

    Of course, I fully expect Leftards to side with tyrants and international thugs — they always have and always will.

    Why would anyone listen to Leftists at this point — they shill not from the moral high ground — they are in the swamp.

  • Hawk

    Russia didn’t bend to anybody’s will. They proved their point and they backed off. They never were intending a long term occupation.

    BO’s won election as an Illinois Senator and as a U.S. Senator because of his opponent’s divorce proceedings being “leaked” to the press.

    They weren’t “leaked” to the press. It is unusual for divorce proceedings to be sealed and since he was married to super hot Jeri Ryan (Seven of Nine) the press filed to have the records unsealed. They were and they hit the jackpot when the documents revealed the sorted details of their sex life.

  • ellinas

    Bat One. I was being sarcastic.
    Thank you for the good advice. I shall do it tonight, and report the results tommorw.

  • Bat One

    e,

    I was merely adding to your sarcasm. You know how often I take what you write seriously!

    By all means attend to those toenails!

  • http://sonofasillyperson.blogspot.com/ sonofasillyperson

    Funny, McCain called on Russia to “immediately and unilaterally” withdraw from Georgia two days before Obama did – Obama’s original directive was for BOTH sides to show restraint, in order to avoid an escalation.

    Crediting Obama with Russia’s agreement to a ceasefire (which may not actually be happening, according to some reports) is like crediting the parrot on the pirate’s shoulder for making some lubber walk the plank.

    Kaine may have just disqualified himself from the veepstakes, much like Bill Richardson did this past weekend. If you enjoy silly Democrats being taken to the woodshed, read George Will’s latest column, which berates Richardson in timeless Will fashion.

  • MikeAdamson

    Russia had already “set up camp” in these regions several years ago.

    Although the two regions were considered part of Georgia after the Soviet Union fell, I don’t think that either of them ever accepted the legitimacy of their inclusion.

  • 2Hotel9

    And your big plan to prevail honorably and honestly is to give them whatever they want. A hint. When someone is beating you with a baseball bat you do not ask them to stop, you make them stop. Or you hope like hell there is someone around to stop them. To be perfectly honest Europe should be doing that right now, and the most that has come from them is a strongly worded letter of protest. Meanwhile Russia continues to trash Georgia as Putin directs, sending him lots of video for his dacha get togethers.

  • Bat One

    Let’s see here… Russian “peacekeepers” in an area disputed between Russia and one of its recent “breakaway” republics. Think about that for a minute!

    Now, are there any doubts that those on the Left got their dishonest misappropriation of language from Moscow’s old Soviet communists.

    Or, was it the UN?

  • 2Hotel9

    To bad the Russians are not withdrawing, and are continuing airstrikes and the further incursion with armored columns into central Georgia.

    Tex, did she drop him? Or throw him?

  • ellinas

    Then why did Russia go through the cities and villages of Abkhazia and Ossetia passing out Russian passports and citizenship papers like candy at an Easter Parade? Have done that regularly since 1991.

    You are not honestly asking me to believe that all those good citizens were not thoroughly documented until 1991? Are you?

    And you are certainly not asking me to believe it is in the best interests of the citizens of Europe to just bow down to Vladmir Putin? Are you?

    2Hotel9 on August 14, 2008 at 03:52 pm

    I don’t know why Russia went through the cities and villages
    of Abkhazia and Ossetia (never heard of it before either) passing out passports.
    What are you saying to me? Easter parade? Never seen one. I haver never seen an Easter parade, and certainly never seen an Easter parade where candy was “passed out”
    Certainly, If what you say is true, those people receiving the passports could have used them as kindling if they did not want them.
    I am not asking you to do what you are saying I am asking you to do.
    I am saying put emotion to the side and be honest about the situation. The Georgians thought they were slick. They gambled, got busted and are paying a heavy price.
    As far as your last question, it is a bullshit question designed to apeal to emotion. I do not want the Europeans to bow down to anyone.
    Also your last question and cooncern for the Europeans is highly suspect, given the fact that Europeans are regularly ridiculed and are the butt of jokes here at SAB by you and those you refer to as the “gang”.
    If we are to prevail over our real and perceived enemies whe have to do it honorably and honestly.

  • 2Hotel9

    Carrick, you are right. Russia decides to embargo their oil it will be very bad for the economies of their former slave states and Europe.

    And you are also correct about Georgia. Those evil bastards have the gall to not want to be Putin’s slaves.

  • docdave

    How dumb to these people think we are?

    I guess we’ll get the answer to that in November. Obama and the Dems are staking their entire campaign on the assumed naivety of the American voters.

  • 2Hotel9

    Then why did Russia go through the cities and villages of Abkhazia and Ossetia passing out Russian passports and citizenship papers like candy at an Easter Parade? Have done that regularly since 1991.

    You are not honestly asking me to believe that all those good citizens were not thoroughly documented until 1991? Are you?

    And you are certainly not asking me to believe it is in the best interests of the citizens of Europe to just bow down to Vladmir Putin? Are you?

  • MikeAdamson

    Carrick…I agree that it is unlikely that the Americans endorsed or approved Georgia’s moves in advance and that Georgia probably assumed too much. I’m with Hawk though on Russia’s concern for its image or lack thereof. I can’t imagine who would physically stand with Georgia against the Russians and thus Russia’s incursion should be viewed as pretty low risk from their perspective. By marching into Georgia Russia demonstrated that it can…now it can fall back into the autonomous regions as you suggest.

    I think that Russia has delivered a message to the other former Soviet satellites and republics…”We’re back babies!” or something to that effect.

  • http://ndgoon.blogspot.com/ goon

    good point docdave, there are a lot of dummies out there voting for BHO. It scares me to think that people believe his hollow rhetoric.

  • ellinas

    2Hotel9. This is what you said: “The separatists have been created by Putin and his banditry. Period. Ossetia is a non-entity, historically and factually. A gollum manufactured by Russia, and nothing more

    My above post ,ellinas on August 14, 2008 at 09:14 am
    shows that you are wrong, on your assertion that “Ossetia is a non-entity, historically and factually.”
    Now you are tying a different method to advance your agenda.
    Your accusations are without merit, just like your claims about Ossetia being a creation of Putin.

  • ellinas

    You are the asshole who toddled into multiple threads and told us that Lebanon belongs to Syria, and they should just get used to it. Now you are telling us that Georgia belongs to Russia, and they should just get used to it. Next you will tell us that Poland and Ukraine belong to Russia and they should just get used to it, and that Europeans have no right to buy gas and oil because that to belongs to Russia and they should just get used to freezing.

    You idea of honor and honesty is for everyone to surrender to socialism and Fundamentalist Islamic terrorists. Fuck you.

    2Hotel9 on August 16, 2008 at 03:30 am

    You are a lying bastard. I have never said such a thing. Never even crossed my mind.
    Are you drunk again?
    Shame on you for stooping so low. You are such a low life. A lying drunk. A drunk fucking coward, hiding behind a computer monitor threatening to kill people, making unfounded claims, in short lying your ass off while drunk.

  • 2Hotel9

    The separatists have been created by Putin and his bandity. Period. Ossetia is a non-entity, historically and factually. A gollum manufactured by Russia, and nothing more.

  • 2Hotel9

    Russia. No, Putin. Has orchestrated an ongoing insurgent movement in all of the former slave states. Why? Because that is the primary function of the KGB. And that is what Putin is, the driving force behind the KGB. Call it whatever you like, NKVD,GUGB, CHEKA, or FSB, it is the entity that is destabilizing the entire region for the sole purpose of reconstituting the Pax Sovieta. And they do not give a fuck how many people they kill, because they are not people, simply Животные, and can therefore be killed with impunity.

  • ellinas

    You are still drunk. Nothing of what you accuse me and others is true. It is a figment of your drunk imagination.
    I suggest you do a search of what has happened to the thriving communities of Greeks that lived for over two thousand years in Georgia.
    If you wish to delve and exist in the past, than the whole region belongs to Greece.

  • 2Hotel9

    So your point it that everyone has to bow down to Putin and the current Russian mafiosi.

  • http://manoffireandlight.blog.co.uk/ ManofFireandLight

    It takes two to tango!

    I would suggest looking into the protests of last November (the so-called Second Rose Revolution) that Saakashvili stamped out, killing, intimidating and arresting his detractors before calling for ‘Free and Fair’ elections – that were free and fair insofar as many of his opposition were behind bars or missing.
    He is a hypocrite, who came to power on the back of one (sort-of) non-violent protest (he and his buddies stormed parliament [not very non-violent, IMO]), who then suppressed the right of the Georgian people to protest peacefully.
    This is not a defense of the Russians, who themselves are pretty despicable, both in terms of human rights and their actions within the Caucasus, but an attempt to paint a picture of a Georgia that is not the beacon of freedom and democracy that some would like it to be, particularly those in the British and US administrations.

  • ellinas

    So your point it that everyone has to bow down to Putin and the current Russian mafiosi.
    2Hotel9 on August 15, 2008 at 12:38 pm

    No. That is something you keep asking, because you have nothing to say.
    If we are to prevail over our real and perceived enemies whe have to do it honorably and honestly.

  • http://manoffireandlight.blog.co.uk/ ManofFireandLight

    There is seems to some contention here over who Georgia belongs to and, more to the point, who South Ossetia belongs to. It would seem clear that South Ossetia belongs to the Ossetians, as they have had semi-autonomy for twenty and with a much more even mix of ethnic and religious groupings are unwilling to be incorporated into a greater Georgian state that has declared itself to be a Christian Democracy (one which discriminates against non-Christians).

    The Georgians have long sought to define their borders on the arbitrary lines drawn on a map by a bunch of murderous Communists as they partitioned up their share of the former Russian empire into semi-autonomous Communist states. It surprises me that some here at SAB are so willing to accept Lenin’s decrees without question.

  • ellinas

    And your big plan to prevail honorably and honestly is to give them whatever they want.A hint. When someone is beating you with a baseball bat you do not ask them to stop, you make them stop. Or you hope like hell there is someone around to stop them. Or…… dacha get togethers.

    2Hotel9 on August 15, 2008 at 02:15 pm

    You showed no concern when Beirut was burning. You were being a cheerleader. Like you say, when someone is beating you with a baseball bat you do not ask them to stop, you make them stop. Or you hope like hell there is someone around to stop them. You don’t apply this to everybody.
    You have to apply those rules equitably.
    That is what I consider honor and honesty.
    What is good for Europe may not be good for the USA.
    And what is good for the USA may not be good for Europe.

  • MikeAdamson

    So, leftards are going to stick with the lie that Georgia did not exist prior to the Soviet Union.

    I’m curious where this bomb comes from. I’ve quickly scanned the thread and can’t find anyone who claims that Georgia didn’t exist although I may have missed it. I did see you claiming that S.O. is an artificial entity and we know that’s not true.

    Overheated rhetoric perhaps?

  • 2Hotel9

    Did you not say this,”The Georgians have long sought to define their borders on the arbitrary lines drawn on a map by a bunch of murderous Communists as they partitioned up their share of the former Russian empire into semi-autonomous Communist states. It surprises me that some here at SAB are so willing to accept Lenin’s decrees without question.”?

    And have not several of our leftard friends here made the point that it is Russia’s business what countries she takes back over, since Russia controls them all anyway? In several threads here, and in many blog posts around the “web” this is a common line of “reasoning”.

    Here is a hint, Georgia existed in roughly the same borders delineated currently for a long time before Lenin and his posse showed up. Sometimes bigger, sometimes smaller, there all the same.

    And it is fact that Russia planted enclaves of its nationals within all of the slave states, with the full intention of subsuming the national or ethnic culture of the non-Russians.

    The Czars merely placed Dukes and Barons over conquered regions and mostly left them alone to be serfs and work. Russia after the Czars has moved into trying to eliminate national and ethnic identities. Failing miserably, doing it all the same. They do not care how much misery and death they cause.

  • ellinas

    You just get stupider and funnier. Tell us again how your religion, Socialism, is going to save humanity from evil, decadent freedom. We never tire of laughing at that shit.

    2Hotel9 on August 17, 2008 at 01:06 pm

    Still drunk I see. Nothing to say other than recite stupid accusations.
    Still have not told us what to do with the Ossetians.

  • 2Hotel9

    That is up to the Georgians and Ossetians, remove Russians from the equation. It is none of their business.

  • Bat One

    The Ossetians do not want to be part of Gergia. And still have not told us what to do with the Ossetians that do not want to be a Georgian province.

    For heavens sakes, E, its been nearly 150 years since the American Civil War. Don’t you think its about time you Democrats stopped siding with the secessionists? After all, you main man (H) was singing Lincoln’s praises just this afternoon.

  • 2Hotel9

    Sorry, that was Flamer! You Canucks and Limeys all sound alike.

  • carrick

    That is up to the Georgians and Ossetians, remove Russians from the equation. It is none of their business.

    I agree it’s none of Russia’s business..

    The question I have is why you think that South Ossetia is Georgia’s business either? After all it wasn’t part of Georgia until Lenin gave it to them in 1922… Georgian ownership of South Ossetia is an artifice of the old Soviet Empire.

  • 2Hotel9

    You just get stupider and funnier. Tell us again how your religion, Socialism, is going to save humanity from evil, decadent freedom. We never tire of laughing at that shit.

  • 2Hotel9

    And you defended Syria dominating Lebanon. Now cry some more for us. You routinely screech that everyone should just bow down to your religion, socialism. Fuck you.

  • Bat One

    Sparkie,

    If you honestly think you can do a better job of pinpointing where I have argued for the retention of South Ossetia by the Georgians than you did discrediting my “analogue” between today’s situation and that of the Sudetenland in 1938, by all means give it your best shot.

  • ellinas

    That is up to the Georgians and Ossetians, remove Russians from the equation. It is none of their business.

    2Hotel9 on August 17, 2008 at 03:05 pm

    Still drunk I see. The Ossetians do not want to be part of Gergia.
    And still have not told us what to do with the Ossetians that do not want to be3 a Georgian province.

  • 2Hotel9

    So, leftards are going to stick with the lie that Georgia did not exist prior to the Soviet Union. Typical.

  • 2Hotel9

    So evey place that Russia hands out pasports and citizenship papers is allowed to become its country? That means America can do it too.

  • http://sayanythingblog.com/readers/author/realitybasedbob/ realitybasedbob

    MOSCOW, Aug 18 (Reuters) – The leader of the breakaway region at the heart of the Georgia-Russia conflict said on Monday he would ask Moscow to station a military base there and rejected the presence of international observers.

    …”We will ask the leadership of the Russian Federation for there to be a Russian military base on the territory of South Ossetia because Russian citizens live here,” the 43-year-old leader of the small province in the Caucasus mountains said.

    …”Let the Americans decide their own American problems and let the people of South Ossetia decide their own future,” Kokoity said. “I am absolutely not interested in the view of America … South Ossetia will never be part of Georgia.”

  • carrick

    Mike I read your report, and I think your guy totally misanalyzed things.

    As I mentioned about the ground forces that appear to have been used were predominately light infantry under control of the MVD. Rather than a two prong attack on Georgia, the incursions amounted to an escalation of the Russian presence in two semi-autonomous territories that were nominally under Georgia control, but just nominally. (Georgia effectively lost control of South Ossetia in the early 1990s).

    The status quo was Russia had a presence before the invasion in South Ossetia and Abkhazia, and they will have a presence afterwards, just a larger number of people.

    I am also doubtful that the United States nodded approval for the Georgia incursion into South Ossetia. That’s just uninformed speculation at this point….

    The main thing that has happened in my opinion, is a cementing of opinion against Russia in the world scene, as is witnessed by the one-sided view that many here have of the conflict. In other words, this has been a public relations disaster for Russia, and Georgia has come out looking like an complete innocent, even if they were the fox in the chicken coup to start with, so to speak.

  • carrick

    Bat One, I don’t trust Russia farther than I can throw the country, but it’s important to realize that Georgia isn’t exactly pure of heart in this either… just saying.

    2Hotel9, the main military attacks against Georgia (largely ineffective as far as I can see) were against its CCC. Then again with 300 warplanes that region to Georgia’s 9, you can ride the skys… just better not get to close to the ground. Something like 40 planes down, it’s reported. I’m in a wait and see mode, but I don’t expect Russia to jeopardize their relations with the west too much. An oil embargo would cripple their economy and likely lead to a permanent vacation for Putin in some crummy Havana hotel…

  • carrick

    meant to say … just a larger number of people and a shift in force composition.

    Anybody have questions about why its necessary to maintain self-defense now? Too bad with their socialistic programs, Europe can’t afford it.

  • http://manoffireandlight.blog.co.uk/ ManofFireandLight

    Notwithstanding the hypocrisy of your referencing Wikipedia, I am willing to concede that the Ottoman empire had indeed annexed Georgia, though Abkhazia at this time was a much larger province and is clearly shown, so this map could indicate at justification for Abkhazian independence. The only time the entirety of Ossetia seems to have existed as a single autonomous region since the 16thC, was between 1918 and 1922, although both North and South did have semi-autonomous status under Soviet rule. However, the Ossetians have declared a desire for complete autonomy/independence and perhaps their voices should be heard.

    I notice also that much of Dagestan used to be a region of Georgia. Is this region of the Caucasus on Saakashvili’s agenda for conquest?

    Ossetians have ceaselessly campaigned for independence or at least autonomy, achieving a modicum of autonomy even under Soviet rule. When the USSR collapsed, South Ossetia sued for independence and were met with force from the Georgians, to which they inevitably responded. They have had a degree of autonomy since the 90s and are unlikely to be willing to give it up easily, as we have seen, especially in the face of a Georgian assault. The mass-murder of civilians is a sore point that sticks with one and it has stuck with both the Ossetians and the Georgians (as both groups were guilty of it in the early 90s).

  • carrick

    Hawk, I agree with you on this one. This incident was provoked by an over the top crackdown of South Ossetia dissidents by the Georgian government, possibly including direct attacks on Russian “peace keeping” forces. While there are things to like about Georgia, their extreme balkan-like nationalism isn’t one of them. I think the best solution is restoration of independence for Ossetia, but I don’ think that’s in the cards here.

    As far as I can tell, the ground invasion, like the “peace keeping” mission, was limited to a special-like group under the control of Putin (MVD forces). This group was in no way large enough to control a country the size and geographical diversity of Georgia, and even if that had been the cases, events have proven the Russian air force to be largely ineffective militarily, and you can’t run an armored invasion without effective air control. Anyway Zig over here has more on the force composition.

    Are there going to be negative consequences to this? No, because the only ones who can realistically punish Russia is Europe, by embargoing their oil. Ain’t going to happen, and the Russians knew this before they invaded. A real invasion by the actual Russian army most likely would have been a debacle on the scale of the Poland misadventure in the 1980s…

  • carrick

    I guess in your world view, Georgia not only has the right of autonomy, but the right to enslave and ethnically cleanse the peoples of the territories that Lenin annexed and gave to them in say 1922? And that these other peoples have no say about their own autonomy?

    And by the way, the fuel source for this Russian “titan” is entirely the oil that Western Europe consumes from Russia. Embargoing their own fuel, would be like trying to hold your breath to punish somebody.

    Georgia can do no wrong, and Russia no right. That’s kind of black and white thinking from somebody as bright as you.

  • MikeAdamson

    2H9…I didn’t say that but I did miss that comment. FWIW, I think Georgia has a right to exist and Russia over reacted to the Georgian military action in South Ossetia and they have to get out of Georgia. Something has to be done to accommodate the Ossetian desire for autonomy however since it’s not simply a Russian construct and they clearly resent being assigned to Georgia.

  • 2Hotel9

    Carrick, Russia had already “set up camp” in these regions several years ago. They are on to the next phase of their operation, systematic destruction of Georgia. Until they surrender. Which is not going to happen. Just like Chechnya.

  • MikeAdamson

    Carrick…I agree that the Russians will stay in S.O. and Abk but I expect that, with their point made, they’ll vacate Georgia itself. Stratfor has an interesting analysis up which is available for everyone to read. I don’t think it’s a very good time to be living in a former Soviet republic.

  • Bat One

    Sparkie,

    I have NOT argued in favor “re-absorbtion” that I recall. Only against the actions taken by Putin. My Sudetenland comparison holds up quite nicely, thank you!

  • carrick

    The people that were there before were ACoE and MP types. Having light infantry groups is a new thing.

  • Hawk

    The main thing that has happened in my opinion, is a cementing of opinion against Russia in the world scene, as is witnessed by the one-sided view that many here have of the conflict. In other words, this has been a public relations disaster for Russia

    Russia doesn’t care. They are getting exactly what they want out of this.

    While I don’t believe that Russia orchestrated the Georgian crackdown on South Ossetia, they have used it to great effect.

    They got to protect people they view as ethnicly part of Russia, they got to punish and humiliate Georgia, they got to flip the west the bird, and there is absolutely no way Georgia or the Ukraine will be allowed into NATO anytime soon.

    They never intended on a long term occupation of Georgia. But they sure showed who controls the region.

  • 2Hotel9

    Putin and his KGB разбойник have created this entire conflict.
    The population of Ossetia and Abkhazia have only one route to independence, through the nation of Georgia. Under Putin and the Mafiosi they have only slavery, starvation, and death. Then again, that is what you want for the people of Greece and America, so I am not surprised you advocate it for the people of Georgia, Ukraine, Azerbaijan, etc etc.

    Tell us again what a great American you are, as you call for millions of innocent people to be enslaved, starved and murdered.

  • Texan Across the Pond

    Kaine’s mom must have dropped him on his head as a baby. LOL!

  • Bat One

    Yes. You are supposed to believe that Russia ignored President Bush, and other world leaders, but complied because Obama asked him to.

    And the next time you trim your toenails, if you’ll take the clippings and put them under your pillow at night…

  • 2Hotel9

    Russia has had military forces, armed, in both regions since 1995.

  • MikeAdamson

    They should be out of Georgia proper shortly I’d expect. I agree with the comments that Georgia overplayed whatever cards they thought they were holding. Interesting that Sarkozy had a role to play…I’m sure that he was coached by Obama. ;)

  • MikeAdamson

    Politicians do say the darndest things. That clip was pretty pretty funny.

  • patriotic

    As a “clinger” of Scotch Irish descent, I know what BO and his condescending socialist associates think of people like me.

    The arrogance of the Dhimmicrats is truly amazing, considering their failed social programs and dismal foreign policy record.

    BO’s won election as an Illinois Senator and as a U.S. Senator because of his opponent’s divorce proceedings being “leaked” to the press. His accomplishments in Illinois – voting for any or all tax measures lockstep with his leftie friends in the legislature. His accomplishments an a U.S. Senator – running for POTUS.

    This posting by Rob should have been titled: “The Audacity of Dope,” as in pipe dream.

  • Bat One

    Carrick,

    Please don’t presume to put words in my mouth! I’m not necessarily arguing for the retention of South Ossetia by Georgia. I am saying that anyone with even a modest knowledge of the history of the first half of the 20th century ought to be able to see the analogy and not try to rationalize the actions of Putin and the Russians.

  • ellinas

    And you defended Syria dominating Lebanon. Now cry some more for us. You routinely screech that everyone should just bow down to your religion, socialism. Fuck you.
    2Hotel9 on August 16, 2008 at 10:43 am

    Are you still drunk? You are an alcoholic. You lie without shame. You have no honor or honesty. You compromised those values long ago.

  • Bat One

    It is truly amazing what some ordinarily rational individuals will do and say just to get a ticket on the Titanic!

    If Kaine actually believes this nonsense, perhaps he and Obama should run for office in Russia.

  • ellinas

    We’re supposed to believe that Russia ignored President Bush, and other world leaders, but complied because Obama asked him to?

    How dumb to these people think we are?

    By Rob on August 12, 2008 at 09:14 am

    Yes. You are supposed to believe that Russia ignored President Bush, and other world leaders, but complied because Obama asked him to.

    These people think y’all are very dumb.

    Now keep asking more dumb questions.

  • 2Hotel9

    Oh, e, tell us again how Lebanon belongs to Syria, the way you leftarded morons keep telling us that Georgia belongs to Russia. That shit is too fucking funny.

  • 2Hotel9

    Funny, doing a quickie search, and taking wiki as the source since it is the only one the political left accepts, we find that Georgia, roughly fitting into its currently delineated borders, existed as far back as the 1600s. Imagine that.

  • MikeAdamson

    It surprises me that some here at SAB are so willing to accept Lenin’s decrees without question.

    Useful idiots. ;)

  • 2Hotel9

    Oh, and I got the Stratfor article in my email update, it is good.

  • http://sayanythingblog.com/readers/author/sparkiearbuckle sayanything-81

    Bat
    There are equally pathetic rationalizations you offer in opposition…

    Pot. Meet Kettle.

    I’m not necessarily arguing for the retention of South Ossetia by Georgia.

    That’s false. You have been. I can post links to your comments if you insist on mischaracterizing your own former positions.

  • http://sayanythingblog.com/readers/author/sparkiearbuckle sayanything-81

    Obama has requested that the sun come up again tomorrow and folks are ‘specting mother nature will comply, submit, etc.

  • http://sayanythingblog.com/readers/author/sparkiearbuckle sayanything-81

    that were free and fair insofar as many of his opposition were behind bars or missing.

    but but but but but… we’re protecting democracy! and they ask why i’m so cynical!

  • http://sayanythingblog.com/readers/author/sparkiearbuckle sayanything-81

    No, actually, you were commenting in support of LBurn who was pro-Georgia. arguing that these regions need to be reabsorbed by Georgia.

  • http://sayanythingblog.com/readers/author/sparkiearbuckle sayanything-81

    Carrick
    Its good to hear your thoughts. I’m glad to see you aren’t still cutting all your dresses from a twenty year old pattern, like beautiful kittycat is doing.

    Kittycat
    That dress is beautiful. A little 80s for my tastes, but that shit is in vogue again now.

  • http://sayanythingblog.com/readers/author/sparkiearbuckle sayanything-81

    bat
    it wasn’t explicit. i guess i inferred it from your comments which referred to the Ossetians as people of Georgia who are in danger of “loosing their freedom”. here is your comment

    The people of Georgia… are in much danger of losing their freedom.

    …but I guess you were arguing for an independent Ossetia eh? Because they are clearly in danger of loosing freedoms on both sides, to the Russians and to Shaskavilli (sp?).

  • http://sayanythingblog.com/readers/author/sparkiearbuckle sayanything-81

    (not in this thread any way)

    an important qualification of your statement. like i said, if bat wants to deny it, i’ll supply links.

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