This makes the false assumption that all atheists commit sins. Thus your argument is realistically invalid. It may hold true within your limited reality, but it does not hold water out here in the real world.

Everyone sins, therefor your nuanced reply is of no account.

“Christian values” like what? Free speech? Freedom of assembly? Those aren’t necessarily Christian teachings.

The Founding Fathers believed in the concept of Natural Law wherein these things you call values were considered God Given Rights given naturally by God.

Sinners who commit sins, like murder, as in abortion or hedonists, must deny the very existence of God so they can deny the guilt of sin. Atheists must always fool themselves so they can rationalize the horrible sins they commit and deny that they are guilty of violating the Natural Order as given by God.

Without some immutable, unchangable truth as the foundation of your beliefs and morals, your values system is the proverbial house built on sand.

Spot on.

Strange,

But I have yet to see any sort of perceptible morality from the non-religious.

What I DO see is an amorality without bottom.

What I DO see is a series of Godless nations that have slaughtered millions in this last Century.

As Darwinism gained currency, humanity did sink into greater degradation and brutalization than any since written records of human history began.

A generation later, the world would witness the rise of the eugenics movement; racial hygiene societies; the first genocide in recorded history; Nazi Germany; Stalinist gulags; and the slaughter of 70 million Chinese at the hands of their exalted chairman.

To be sure, other books were published on the eve of the bloody twentieth century.

But Hitler and Marx were not citing Louisa May Alcott’s Little Women for support. They were citing Darwin.

– Don’t shoot the Messenger

When the Goddless can show me that they can live under an established set of morals, perhaps then I would offer them a modicum of respect.

As it is, we have some 262,000,000 examples of what the amoral Godless can do.

Democrats cannot conceive of “hate speech” towards Christians because, in their eyes, Christians always deserve it

– Ann Coulter, GODLESS

Bob, er I mean that Washington guy with the false teeth:

Treat them with humanity, and let them have no reason to complain of our copying the brutal example of the British Army in their treatment of our unfortunate brethren who have fallen into their hands.

And I say

Treat them as you would expect to be treated if you were behaving like them.

There is no dishonor in dealing with bandits as if they were bandits, rather than pretending they are the soldiers they are not.

This country was founded, like it or not, on Christian values. You do not have to believe in God or Christ to believe that the morals taught by Him (Christ) are a good thing.

Exactly. Thank you for stating it correctly.

It seems to me that when God was removed from the classroom, denigrated in public and the Politically Correct nutjobs took over, all the principles of kindness, decency and the Golden Rule has led to the violence that is prevelant in today’s society.

The error you make is that you believe a person needs religion to be a moral decent individual, you do not.

The religious types in this country need to realize the above and stop linking the only road to morality with religion.

Listen, all I’m saying is how about a little respect for people who don’t believe?

This post is about the disrespect shown to believers, and the consequences of same.

I think our founders believed in individualism, and individual liberty, and dressed up their politics in religion as was the custom of the day.

That is because you desperately want them to be atheist like you! It is rewriting history.

Listen, all I’m saying is how about a little respect for people who don’t believe?

We can respect them as good people if they are, but it would be a violation of my faith to respect their denial of God.

This country was founded, like it or not, on Christian values.

That’s really a nice thing to say here in the 21st century but the boys way back when, ya know the founders, had a unanimous opinion when it came to that kinda talkin

ARTICLE 11.

As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion,-as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen,-and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

Musselmen, who knew?

There was then as there is now much dispute about the Constitutionality of this Treaty and Article 11, the Arab version of that treaty does even not contain this wording.

“The highest glory of the American Revolution was this: it connected in one indissoluble bond the principles of civil government with the principles of Christianity.” John Quincy Adams 6th US President and son of John Adams

“It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great Nation was founded not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religious, but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ. For that reason alone, people of other faiths have been afforded freedom of worship here.” Patrick Henry 1776

“The highest glory of the American Revolution was this: it connected in one indissoluble bond the principles of civil government with the principles of Christianity.” John Quincy Adams 6th US President and son of John Adams

This treaty, even approved by Congress cannot be rationally construed as saying this nation was not founded upon Christian principles when the innumerable quotations of our Founding Fathers and our National Charter affirm such a faith. No one has contended America is a Christian Country to the detriment of others, far from it, it was because we were a Christian people that all other religions and non-religionists were afforded the same rights. Yet, it is absolutely wrong to suggest that the Christian faith and belief in the Judeo-Christian God was not the rock upon which our nation was built.

Hmmm, I wonder if Glenn Beck and Ann Coulter would get along…doesn’t she have a book called ‘Godlessness’?

Rob has it in his craw that Beck was dismissing or rejecting atheists and nothing will ever remove that falsehood from his thick head on this issue. Beck is talking about our nation generally having become godless as being the cause for our national problems. yet, he welcomes anyone that shares most of his principles into this movement and if atheists don’t choose to believe godlessness is a problem that is alright with him, they are still welcome to travel along with him on the other issues.

“Christian values” like what? Free speech? Freedom of assembly? Those aren’t necessarily Christian teachings.

And even the tend commandments are hardly exclusively Christian. They’re pretty basic and broad teachings. Don’t murder people? Don’t steal? Don’t cheat on your wife? Be nice to your parents?

What I got from this Rob is the references to the creator and such in documents like the Declaration of Independence and what I’ve read of the writings of our founders.

I didn’t get the vibe that it is “exclusively Christian”

Again, the problem here is that people think you have to be a Christian to be a moral individual, when in fact you don’t.

The unanimous Founding Dads:

As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion,

(1) No this was Congress at the time, NOT the Founding Fathers. It was a treaty that said it, not the Constitution or the Founding Fathers. (2) That treaty and clause DOES NOT erase or make void all the other statements by our Founding Father’s that speaks of our being founded upon Christian principles. (3) It was never necessary to take it to SCOTUS, so while it was never tested, it was still disputed by many at the time.

Why do you hate our Founding Father’s? Why do you hate the Christian Faith? Why are you lying about what our Founding Father’s said?

“It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great Nation was founded not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religious, but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ. For that reason alone, people of other faiths have been afforded freedom of worship here.” Patrick Henry 1776

“The highest glory of the American Revolution was this: it connected in one indissoluble bond the principles of civil government with the principles of Christianity.” John Quincy Adams 6th US President and son of John Adams

“Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is the duty as well as the privilege and interest of our Christian Nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers.” John Jay the first Supreme Court Justice

“The United States of America were no longer Colonies. They were an independent nation of Christians.” – John Qunicy
Adams

“He is the best friend to American liberty, who is most sincere and active in promoting true and undefiled religion, and who set himself with the greatest firmness to bear down on profanity and immorality of every kind. Whoever is an avowed enemy of God, I scruple not to call him an enemy to his country.” – John Witherspoon, member of the Continental Congress and clergyman

“I do not believe that the Constitution was the offspring of inspiration, but I am perfectly satisfied that the Union of the States in its form and adoption is as much the work of a Devine Providence as any of the miracles recorded in the Old and New Testaments.” – Benjamin Rush

“Human law must rest its authority ultimately upon the authority for that law which is divine…far from being rivals or enemies, religion and law are twin sisters, friends, and mutual assistants. Indeed, these two sciences run into each other.” – James Wilson (signatory of the Constitution)

We were founded by deists and Christians that relied upon prayer and fasting and Scripture during those days when they formed our Constitution. It was formed by mostly Christians that demanded freedom of religious worship or non worship by all its citizens. Its laws were based on other laws of other nations, upon common wisdom and by faith in God. That record is clear.

Neiman, please link to anywhere Christianity or Jesus were referenced in any of our founding documents.

If it was so important and they truly founded American as a Christian nation, certainly there is a footnote or clause somewhere, right?

Right on, Rob.

Neiman and other fundies like him (Dino) make it very difficult for me to believe in any of the bullshit they spew. Too much hate.

Funny, the very lack of tolerance they push forth is diametrically opposed to the ideas of freedom the framers had in mind. Why would I fight so hard against the totalitarian ideals of wacko leftists only to be trapped in the totalitarian ideals of wacko rightists?

In spite of my non-theist morality, I’m not one to say that the country didn’t have a healthy amount of religious background. But as with all other learned things, I also believe some of us have learned to step out of the caves and learn truthful, rational, and logical explanations for what we observe and learn to be comfortable with coincidence rather than believing in allegory and parables to explain it all away.

There very use of class warfare is not new; class warfare has long been a tool for abuse by believers and non-believers alike. And the more crazed a believer or non-believer is, the more ridiculous the class warfare is. It’s all socio-political postering—more propaganda—designed to sap intellect and control others. It’s interesting just how little these things are in controlling the true individual: he who could give a shit and a half less what all these others believe.

Yes there is no original basis for so-called “separation of church of state”. But there is practical basis: as brought to us by the machinations of our various political machinations. So perhaps it might do us some good to stay here in reality to than to live in some form of an idealist past… one where fanatic religion ruled.

So what say we go burn some witches? Or maybe throw some sinners into a plastic shredder? Or lynch some gays? Or tax the fsck out of our high achievers? Or enslave some negroes? It’s all the same sick thing… all fanatical fundamentalist bullshit.

And remember: it’s people like ME who are ruining this nation.

It’s the militant atheists who want to suppress the religion of the vast majority. Talk about tyrannical.
Asserting one’s faith, as Glenn does, is a Constitutional right, remember?
Why is anyone worked up about Glenn voicing his opinion about a very real decline in American culture? You would think that those who truly love America would at least listen and debate this issue, rather than slinging hate.

I agree with Glen Beck. If you look at the facts people who are strong in the Christian faith commit fewer crimes. They have fewer divorces, fewer drug addicts. I like what Glen Beck has to say. Thank you for what you said ZsaZsa.

The error you make is that you believe a person needs religion to be a moral decent individual, you do not.
The religious types in this country need to realize the above and stop linking the only road to morality with religion.

No you don’t need to be religious to be a good person. But if you are using the Christian belief system, then don’t pretend that your morality is not linked to Christianity.

While you can be an athiest and espouse Christian morality, without the backing of the Father, such morality has no basis other than your word. Without a creator, the basis of rights is the consensus of man, or the whims of government. Or, in other words, we have no rights. All we have is what our government allows us to have.

We see this attitude on the left, who views the Bible and the Constitution as living breathing documents, to be used as seen fit.

Without some immutable, unchangable truth as the foundation of your beliefs and morals, your values system is the proverbial house built on sand.

Sphag: Good to point out that difference; lefties politicize everything, including religion, which is why the culture is hurting

You know full well it is the Right and not the Left that has been politicizing everything, including religion, which is why the GOP is hurting.

I missed one.

I live under an established set of morals. I established it within freedom granted to me to do so by the United States Constitution.

The constitution doesn’t grant any freedoms. Because government cannot grant rights. And anyone who says something so mind numbingly absurd is ignorant of the truth of the document itself. The document didn’t exist to spell out the rights of man, but to limit the scope and power of the government, which, unchecked, is the source of limitless suffering.

So any man who says, let me consult my fellow man for what my morality is allowed to be, has no morality.

This is obviously a subject weighted with many opinions and positions. While I myself am a practicing Christian, I am also pragmatic and honest enough to know that true Christians recognize that through God’s grace, they are forgiven, not perfected (that perfection comes later for the believer). For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. Therefore, while I recognize that others who are not Chrisitians are entitled to their beliefs under our Constitution, I also believe that they are wrong in those beliefs, and hope that the truth would reach them at some point in life. True Christians do not try to force their beliefs on others, but do actively work to gently persuade them toward recognition of the truth and salvation as we believe it is given by God’s grace to us. Quiet witness in the way that you live your life, treat others, set an example and try with all your might to adhere to moral values that are not as has been pointed out strictly Christian, while recognizing that you yourself will stumble from time to time is the most effective way of achieving this goal.

I respect Glenn Beck for sincerely holding to his beliefs as well as any human may. For the record though, Beck is a Mormon, not a Christian in the eyes of many. I have known and associated with many Mormons in my life and have found them to be good, decent people, capable of mistakes as we all are, but generally good people. As a Christian who has studied apologetics for many years though, I cannot accept the Mormon theology as truth. They in turn look at the type of Christianity practiced by me and many others and do not accept that as truth. One of us is wrong, but the only person who knows the answer to that is God Himself. I will hold to my belief, they will hold to theirs, and some day we will see. Those who hold to no belief will also know the truth some day if we that believe in God are right, or we shall all pass into eternal oblivion, never to know the truth. I for one refuse to accept that scenario.

True Christians do not try to force their beliefs on others, but do actively work to gently persuade them toward recognition of the truth and salvation as we believe it is given by God’s grace to us. Quiet witness in the way that you live your life, treat others,

Ah yes, thank you for setting us straight SigFan, are we Christians not all exceedingly glad that Jesus was always quiet and gentle, never exposing sin as being sin, and One Who never spoke of hell or punishment, Who never tried to persuade the lost to come to Him for fear of eternal punishing? I am so glad Paul was quiet, gentle and like Jesus never caused anyone to be angry with him or hate him or act violently towards him, because he was always seen as being so kind a d kept quiet about nonsense like sin. I am glad John the Baptist was quiet and gentle, never raging against sin, never calling loudly and passionately for repentance, or like Jesus never calling anyone serpents and that he never did anything to make a Christ rejecting world angry with him, hate him or act violently towards him. I am glad Peter and the other Apostles were always quiet, gentle, kind, never causing anyone to by angry with, hate or act violently towards them, all dying sweetly in their beds, being quiet, gentle witnesses for the Truth and never raging against sin in the world.

Yes, SigFan you are absolutely right, let all Christians imitate Christ and the Apostles by keeping our mouths shut (be quiet), not exposing sin (being gentle) and like them let us offend no one, let us unfailingly be polite and kind to everyone, even if that kindness dooms them to hell. You have truly captured the Spirit of Christ, if we are just sweet and kind enough we will win souls to Heaven; and to speak against sin and to witness even to the point of offending people about their need for Jesus is just plain anti-Christian. Thank you for your correction or the wayward ways of Christians.

Yes, SigFan I was wrong in believing the Church is contending with the forces of evil for every precious soul on earth, wrong to believe we are to endure insults, pain and even death to fight against a sin stained world and to lead people to righteousness in Christ.

Yes SigFan the love of Christ is best expressed in offending no one, letting them all go into an eternity in hell rather than risk others calling us hateful, angry, hypocrites and worse. Thanks to you I now realize His love is not in warning others of Judgment and Hell, teaching that old fear crap from the Bible, but making sinners love us by not offending them. Thanks so much!

Rob,

I think you’re comments exaggerate Beck’s position. Inalienable rights endowed by our Creator form the foundation of American political freedom. Remove God from the equation and you have political liberty absent any objective authority. Gov’t replaces the Creator as the source of these rights and therefore gov’t is the final arbiter of these rights. No appeal can be made to the inalienable nature of our rights. No freedom from gov’t. The gov’t is then the final authority regarding our rights. This isn’t independence but complete dependence on government instead of God. Atheists are only a threat when this very, very small minority insists we abondon inalienible rights for those gov’t will grant us.

Indeed he just said that all but Christians are wrong, and that it is our duty to persuade others to our cause, not force our beliefs on them.

Exactly. “Persuade” being the key word here. Not “legislate,” “force,” or “compel.”

It is not about actually believing in God or being a Christian. It is about having a moral compass, a guiding set of beliefs that you adhere to and don’t set aside to be politically expedient.

This country was founded, like it or not, on Christian values. You do not have to believe in God or Christ to believe that the morals taught by Him (Christ) are a good thing.