Actually, these are conclusions that I have made on my own study. It’s nice to read other thoughts and arguments on the Bible, but coming to my own conclusions on the data presented towards me from this and other religions. I just look at the history that I’m able to find on my own and to study the culture of that time, so I have in context of what the book is.

Also, this behavior is one that just reads and cherry picks what he wants to hear.

David crucified all of Saul’s family,

David did not do that. He married his daughter and his son Johnathan (his best friend and rescuer) got killed in a war which David grieved over. Actually, Saul was trying to kill him and in his fit of paranoia, attempted to kill his own son.

[]bKills off all of humanity in a flood, yet he created them imperfect

God didn’t kill of all of humanity, of which you changed in your next statement, but the imperfection of which you speak of was caused by Adam and Eve because they chose to eat the fruit of the tree, thereby we went and forsook our divinity. God CREATED US in his OWN IMAGE. First we were perfect then we forsook that.

Also, you forget that God gave a warning to the Israelites for wanting an earthly king, saying that he was their king, but they insisted on having one.

That’s why I don’t really believe you’ve really analyzed this thoughtfully.

Now with the God of the Old Testament vs the New Testament they seem to be different Gods to me. I also view that the Old Testament to be more historical of that particular region (as you remember Abraham founded the Judaic religion), and the New Testament is something more of what I believe that is the spirit of Christianity to be. So, I view this transfer as possibly a change in overall human consciousness and becoming more aware of things as they go. Everyone in the history of the world has gone through that, we’ve progressed.

Again, I would take things in the Bible not only spiritually, but allegorically and metaphorically as well. Some things are at face value, some require more thought. I think it’s a more personal religion than what its detractors are making it out to be.

That being said, if the Sioux tribes have no issue with it, but yet they continue expressing being outraged, well then we know the real story.

I believe I said men created god in their own image, and then in the OT justified their actions by saying “God may us do it.” I never commented on man’s original perfection. But it does raise the question: How does perfect become imperfect? The Fall story is full of problems, not the least of which I raised with the comment of how an omniscent god could put a tree in a garden, tell its inhabitants not to eat of its fruit, while knowing they would. If you which to rehearse the Augustinian Original Sin argument, go ahead.

As for the New Testament Pauline salvetic Messiah, you can go ahead with that too. Problem is, it was never part of the Judaic viewpoint, put a whole new invention based on Hellenic and Gnostic ideas.

And as for sweeping statements, you’d have to supply examples. I think I was pretty specific.

The Bible and with any religion, it is metaphorical, allegorical, and historical due to the oral traditions of the people that passed it down.

Funny enough, when the Israelites wanted a king, God warned them against it, for he was their king. However, when they insisted, they got one.

I think looking at Genesis, the idea of Eve and Adam with the Forbidden Fruit was our first step in deciding for ourselves to live our lives as our own, however we chose to also forsake our own divinity in the process for that. Every religion that I’ve read into has some Fall or another.

“Who are you a created, finite person of flesh and blood to judge your Creator”

Oh cut the nonsense. Man created god in his own image. And the Israelites justified all they did by saying god made us do it. David crucified all of Saul’s family, had sex with Bathsheba, sent Uriah to the front to die, and god sat there and did nothing. Yet David was anointed by god to be king. Great judge of character your god. Told a drunkard to build an ark, while he wiped everyone else out. Don’t debate the Bible with me, you won’t win.

But anyone who doesn’t see the Bible as nothing more than propaganda misses its point.

I don’t think so. I just think you have a beef with the Bible, otherwise you wouldn’t have made overall generalized sweeping statements in the beginning with the Flood and neither did you properly disseminate the “Fall”.

You also said God created us in His own image, then went on to say he created imperfect and that God is immoral. Now, let’s see here. As far as I know the general consensus regarding the Bible is that we were once perfect, but then we have sinned, causing our fall, then through the Blood of Jesus we are saved. So essentially we are talking overall the process of enlightenment. So, how is that any less valid than the Upanishads or the Vedas to the Sutras of Buddah? No path to enlightenment is easy, as in any religion.

However, the Old Testament is a result of writings of Jewish oral traditions, as well as the New Testament being written by the oral traditions of his disciples. If you look in the bigger picture of each of these tomes, you do get to see the history–from the Israelite’s and the disciples point of view. Also, they were only able to grasp what they saw and divine from it the best way they could with what information they had in that time. Interesting.

If you really studied the Bible, you would have seen that if you were a believer or not. If you were really honest and objective about looking at each religion for what it’s worth, you wouldn’t have made those overall sweeping statements. Sorry, I call shennanigans.

“why can’t you see that in practical honest analysis?”

But I do. I am fully aware of what was going on as the oral traditions described religions. I have read the “Epic of Gilgamesh” and the Babylonian creation epics. I am also aware that the Ten Commandments function as a guide to assure order in a tribal society. In Hebrew, “neighbor” meant kinsman, not the guy nextdoor. But anyone who doesn’t see the Bible as nothing more than propaganda misses its point.

“Are moral laws in the Bible, political correctness?”

Hard to find moral laws in the Bible when you have an immoral god. One who puts a tree in the garden, tells Adam and Eve not to eat from it, yet, being omniscent knows they will. Kills off all of humanity in a flood, yet he created them imperfect. Tells Abraham to kill his son. Causes no end of grief to Job. Tells the Israelites to slaughter men, women and children in their quest for hegemony over the area. Some god.

Are moral laws in the Bible, political correctness? Or, are there moral absolutes?

Rob, will never be able to wrap his head around that one.

If it doesn’t bother the Sioux, then why is it an issue?

Because political correctness means you’re better than everyone that disagrees with you.