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Thursday, March 22, 2007

German Judge Says Woman Can’t Get Divorce, Men Have Right To Beat Their Women

No, that’s not an exaggeration.  A German Judge has actually ruled that, because a man and woman are of Moroccan descent and are practicing Muslims, a controversial bit of the Koran which grants a man the right to hit his wife prevents them from getting a speedy divorce.

The case seems simply too strange to be true. A 26-year-old mother of two wanted to free herself from what had become a miserable and abusive marriage. The police had even been called to their apartment to separate the two—both of Moroccan origin—after her husband got violent in May 2006. The husband was forced to move out, but the terror continued: Even after they separated, the spurned husband threatened to kill his wife.

A quick divorce seemed to be the only solution—the 26-year-old was unwilling to wait the year between separation and divorce mandated by German law. She hoped that as soon as they were no longer married, her husband would leave her alone. Her lawyer, Barbara Becker-Rojczyk agreed and she filed for immediate divorce with a Frankfurt court last October. They both felt that the domestic violence and death threats easily fulfilled the “hardship” criteria necessary for such an accelerated split.

In January, though, a letter arrived from the judge adjudicating the case. The judge rejected the application for a speedy divorce by referring to a passage in the Koran that some have controversially interpreted to mean that a husband can beat his wife. It’s a supposed right which is the subject of intense debate among Muslim scholars and clerics alike."The exercise of the right to castigate does not fulfill the hardship criteria as defined by Paragraph 1565 (of German federal law),” the daily Frankfurter Rundschau quoted the judge’s letter as saying. It must be taken into account, the judge argued, that both man and wife have Moroccan backgrounds.

This seems a bit like an American judge ruling that it’s ok to kill a gay man because Leviticus 20:13 states “If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.”

So much for European enlightenment.  And separation of church and state (though this is Germany, and not America).

Plus, what a perfect example of judicial tyranny.  Here a judge has looked beyond the laws of the country and found some other authority with which to justify his ruling.  That should be scary for anyone who values living in a free society.

Comments

Maybe being Muslim isn’t all bad.


What’s going to happen to US industry when the global warming extremists like John McCain double the price of electricity?  I would think all these factories will close and set up in countries where they aren’t scared of technology.


The Whistler's signature
The Whistler on March 22, 2007 at 06:07 pm
Avatar for Ronald Walter

Yeah, it’s open season on Americans if you’re a Muslim with fundamentalist beliefs.

First you beat your wife, then you can kill Americans. 

Makes sense to you maybe, but not to me.

Ronald Walter on March 22, 2007 at 08:32 pm
Avatar for Angela Chen Shui

hmmm… looking to Scripture to rationalise abuse of women… misogyny alive and well… again.. and with God’s ‘consent’.

Angela

http://www.angelachenshui.com

Angela Chen Shui on March 23, 2007 at 03:42 am

Shar’ia in modern law, that is what you are working for, ronnie. And since no Muslim has every murdered innocent people in the name of their God you must be right!


Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

2Hotel9 on March 23, 2007 at 04:13 am

It must be taken into account, the judge argued, that both man and wife have Moroccan backgrounds.

Where does cultural relativism have a place in the justice system?

If a judge started quoting bible passages in the US, they’d be all over the news.

Oh and Rob, the judge was a gal.

electnixon on March 23, 2007 at 05:28 am

I was pleased by this:

Representatives of Germany’s Muslim population were also critical of the ruling.

“Violence and abuse of people — whether against men or women — are, of course, naturally reasons to warrant a divorce in Islam as well,” the country’s Central Council of Muslims said in a statement.

electnixon on March 23, 2007 at 05:29 am
Avatar for Haludek

Rules according to which one member of a community can feel free to cause suffering to another, are no culture or tradition - they’re nothing but barbarity.

Haludek on March 23, 2007 at 09:34 am
Avatar for Claw

No, that’s not an exaggeration.

Actually, yes, it is.

If a judge started quoting bible passages in the US, they’d be all over the news.

That appears to be a rather trivial statement. Is it supposed to have any meaning?

Claw on March 23, 2007 at 03:52 pm

Yes, it does. Apparently you are not bright enough to figure it out.


Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

2Hotel9 on March 23, 2007 at 06:12 pm
Avatar for michele

So I guess if logic follows, then the morrocan man should permitted to kill an american christian woman as long as he is married to it her.  For then she is game on two counts in the Koran:  she is a dirty woman, and she is a christian and an american.

michele on March 24, 2007 at 09:05 am
Avatar for lisa

In Ameria judges do not quote bibles, but rather BUSH does to condone his actions in Iraq,Afgan,palesine,and now Iran.

Hey, using the bible to condone MURDER in the states by representatives of Chstianity is even worse:

REV PAUL HILL (called a hero shot and kiled a doctor who abrted.His equaly fanatical freind REV MICHEAL BRAY said that he is deffending his law of religion,also that the BIBLE CONDONES his actions.Also that rev paul who is now dead is in HEAVEN with JESUS.( more likely with 12 fagots).

lisa on March 28, 2007 at 03:34 pm

This is what would happen in a Muslim Theocracy.  This is a real case in Germany and not theoretical.


Communism is evil

Chief RZ on March 28, 2007 at 04:09 pm
Avatar for lisa

Are you saying this is a fabrication?Yes it do happen in muslim countreis but by extremists like the reverands

Maybe the living on of the two can SUE cause Amica is the bet country to se some one.

lisa on March 29, 2007 at 11:19 am
Avatar for elsa

Incidentally, the judge doesn’t even know what he’s talking about.  The Koran allows women the right to file for divorce if they suffer sufficient harm.  The level of harm necessary is specific to the woman, taking into account what is acceptable in the society around her.  In Muslim countries, this usually means poor women are expected to accept beatings, while wealthy, educated women are not.  If she’s living in Germany, then the judge should consider German standards.  Sharia can be bad enough without being applied by someone who clearly doesn’t understand it.

elsa on April 12, 2007 at 01:09 pm

Elsa: Europe has almost totally capitulated to Islam out of fear, cowardice and in their own economic interests; and, just like during WW-II, German Courts are not interested in Justice, the Law or the Truth; they are figuratively bowing down to Allah; and this judge like those tried at Nuremberg, is not dispensing justice, but politically motivated rulings. So, I am sorry but your point, the facts are falling on deaf ears in Germany!


No matter the age or state of health, for a military man it is always glorious to tilt at windmills, rescue a fair Dulcinea and be a gallant knight in armor in a glorious cause.

Neiman on April 12, 2007 at 01:45 pm

Rob: I write this with all due respect:

Usually you are incredibly fair and open about religion and people of faith, but your statement: “This seems a bit like an American judge ruling that it’s ok to kill a gay man because Leviticus 20:13 states “If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.” Was a bit offensive to me in what it seemed to imply!

1. Separation of Church and State is not in the Constitution. The 1st Amendment only prohiits the government from passing laws establishing a state sponsored religion/denomination; and from prohibiting free exercise of ones religious beliefs - Jefferson was very supportive of the concept of free exercise of religious faith. The 1st Amendment effectively keeps the government out of religion which is best for people of faith, but it does not allow for legislating governmental hostility towards religion nor does it exclude people of faith from expressing their religious and political beliefs in the public square.

2. The passage you quoted is from the Old Testament, and when the New Testament (covenant) between God and man was made manifest, the old or previous covenant was made null and void. As when any legal contract is superceded by a new contract. The only exception was that the moral and spiritual laws from the 10-Commandments were included as a guide for moral living. Thus, no true Christian would ever seek a law or if it existed want to enforce one asking for homosexuals to be killed or hurt in any manner just for being homosexuals. In fact, while the act [behavior] is still condemned in the New Testament, Christians are commanded to love everyone - including homosexuals, seeing that these Christians are sinners just like, just as bad, as everyone else and only saved by a gift of God (Grace). No matter how much people admired Mother Theresa, if she made Heaven is was by grace, not because she earned it. No one is saved because they are good or better than anyone else!

3. While admittedly in Europe in centuries past we witnessed an unhealthy entanglement between Church and State that was most unChristian in its actions; at no time in American history (Since we became a nation) has the Christian Church sought to establish a Theocracy in this land. Yes, like every other American Christians also have a right to try and elect politicians sharing their beliefs and seek to change laws to be in harmony with their faith, but that is the extent of their political activity, with the realization there are always exceptions.

What bothers me is your inclusion of Leviticus and your words attached thereto in this thread, as it appears like you were trying to condemn the American Christian Church and people of faith in general along with this German Judge; but I know that you are a fair atheist and not at all hostile to people of faith, so I just think that inclusion of that paragraph was unfortunate, not an act of malice.


No matter the age or state of health, for a military man it is always glorious to tilt at windmills, rescue a fair Dulcinea and be a gallant knight in armor in a glorious cause.

Neiman on April 12, 2007 at 02:15 pm
Rob
Rob
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What I was trying to illustrate is the absurdity of using religions doctrine (as opposed to the laws passed by the legislature) to settle a legal matter.


When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

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Rob on April 12, 2007 at 02:22 pm

The only exception was that the moral and spiritual laws from the 10-Commandments were included as a guide for moral living.

I believe this to be untrue also, as in the New Testament Jesus simplified the 10 commandements into two commandments.

1. Love Your God
2. Love Your Neighbor


"All the perplexities, confusion and distress in America arise not from defects in their Constitution or Confederation, nor from want of honor or virtue, so much as downright ignorance of the nature of coin, credit and circulation.”
- John Adams

Troy_Pineri on April 12, 2007 at 03:16 pm
Rob
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Not that I care, since the Bible is little more than a contradictory stack of pages to me, but where did Jesus consolidate the 10 commandments?

Got a cite?  Chapter and verse?


When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

robport.gif border=0

Rob on April 12, 2007 at 03:35 pm

Matthew 22:36-40.  Also Mark chapter 12… Rob, do you have a bible?
Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.

Zsa Zsa on April 12, 2007 at 04:51 pm

Troy_Pineri: You are absolutely right and you are clearly wrong on this matter. Jesus said that in loving God and then your neighbor as yourself, you are fulfilling all the Law and the Prophets. Thou Shalt Not steal, if you are walking in love for God and your neighbor you would not even think of stealing, and every other moral commandment can be examined under the same measurement of Love. So, you were right that they were condensed to two, but also wrong because those two encompass them all.

Zsa Zsa: Exactly right about your references.

Rob: I accept what you said, I just wanted you to know how I read it, but I also stated that I knew you to be fair and not hostile to people of faith.


No matter the age or state of health, for a military man it is always glorious to tilt at windmills, rescue a fair Dulcinea and be a gallant knight in armor in a glorious cause.

Neiman on April 12, 2007 at 05:01 pm

You are absolutely right and you are clearly wrong on this matter.

Whatever....


"All the perplexities, confusion and distress in America arise not from defects in their Constitution or Confederation, nor from want of honor or virtue, so much as downright ignorance of the nature of coin, credit and circulation.”
- John Adams

Troy_Pineri on April 12, 2007 at 07:17 pm

Troy_Pineri: Why do I have the feeling you took an innocent obervation and took it as an insult?


No matter the age or state of health, for a military man it is always glorious to tilt at windmills, rescue a fair Dulcinea and be a gallant knight in armor in a glorious cause.

Neiman on April 12, 2007 at 07:24 pm

Really, where is that cite for condensing the 10 Commandments?


Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

2Hotel9 on April 13, 2007 at 03:31 am
Avatar for henta

In Ameria judges do not quote bibles, but rather BUSH does to condone his actions in Iraq,Afgan,palesine,and now Iran.

Hey, using the bible to condone MURDER in the states by representatives of Chstianity is even worse:

REV PAUL HILL (called a hero shot and kiled a doctor who abrted.His equaly fanatical freind REV MICHEAL BRAY said that he is deffending his law of religion,also that the BIBLE CONDONES his actions.Also that rev paul who is now dead is in HEAVEN with JESUS.( more likely with 12 fagots).

henta on May 9, 2007 at 01:23 am

henta? Does your employer know about your use of their computer to spew terrorist propaganda?


Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

2Hotel9 on May 9, 2007 at 04:04 am

henta - I changed your link and banned your spammer url.

Get a real job. Spamming is for losers.

likwidshoe on May 9, 2007 at 04:24 am

Hey, Lik? Are y’all having server trouble or is it on my end? Just wondering if I need to call my ISP.


Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

2Hotel9 on May 9, 2007 at 04:27 am

Call your ISP. Things are fine here.

likwidshoe on May 9, 2007 at 04:28 am

Cool! Thought perhaps SA was getting attacked. Thanks.


Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

2Hotel9 on May 9, 2007 at 04:30 am
Avatar for John

This is a real case in Germany and not theoretical.

John on May 14, 2007 at 05:57 am
Avatar for lisa

Rob funny how you seem to condem countreis/people using religious doctrine to pass on laws.yrt you condon the right for jews to return to palestine!.

was it not created because of religious doctrine??

lisa on May 18, 2007 at 08:34 am
Avatar for spirituality and self help

Outrages law.Religion is supposed to be pure and thus shouldn’t be mixed with politics and law which aren’t pure.

spirituality and self help on July 16, 2008 at 10:43 am
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