I know there’s a post about “religion in public schools” and the never-ending “separation of church and state” debate (which is a farce, by the way) in this article somewhere…
...but I just can’t help but look at that picture and think, ”Man I should have been going to bible class when I was a kid.”
:-O
I think Rob hates me… I mean, just look at the pic he took of me!
:-O
Close your mouth! You’re a married Christian man!
Haha, I was GAPING at the convienient placement of mother/daughter’s breasts directly above the Bible. Obviously an intentional placement on behalf of the photographer, it’s just..... odd
I think Rob hates me… I mean, just look at the pic he took of me!
Man I should have been going to bible class when I was a kid.”
If you had, maybe you would consider yourself an atheist.
I don’t understand all the frothing of the mouth over the Bible. The books, old and new testament, have great historical significance about the early Jews and the lives of Jesus Christ and his followers and could be studied solely on that basis. Indeed there are scholars who have done this as a way of authentication.
You don’t have to be a moron to be a liberal Democrat but it sure helps.
As a marketing gimmick, it’s brilliant.
The photographer is obviously a shill for the Presbyterians. Or something like that.
When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.
-- Thomas Jefferson
Rob’s recently listened-to songs:
If you had, maybe you would consider yourself an atheist.
I think you mean “maybe you wouldn’t.”
I don’t understand all the frothing of the mouth over the Bible. The books, old and new testament, have great historical significance about the early Jews and the lives of Jesus Christ and his followers and could be studied solely on that basis. Indeed there are scholars who have done this as a way of authentication.
I get the historical significance of the bible. I just don’t see how anyone can study the bible, closely, and conclude that it’s evidence of anything other than a loosely-compiled, sometimes contradictory pile of superstitions overly-interpreted and selective practiced by various groups of spiritual people over centuries.
But that’s just my take, and what do I know. I’m a godless heathen.
When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.
-- Thomas Jefferson
Rob’s recently listened-to songs:
what do I know. I’m a godless heathen
Sorry, Rob, I didn’t mean to pull your chain that hard. As far as your judgement on the bible that it is a contradictory pile of superstitions overly-interpreted and selective practiced by various groups of spiritual people over centuries. How did you arrive at that conclusion? I’m not trying to challenge but am just curious.
You don’t have to be a moron to be a liberal Democrat but it sure helps.
Rob: The photographer is obviously a shill for the Presbyterians.
To quote the great sage of our time (Fozzie Bear): “They don’t look like Presbyterians to me!”
Doc, the “godless heathen” crack was a joke.
As for my view of religion, that’ something I’ve concluded just by looking at religious history. Modern Christians certainly don’t practice everything in the bible (else we wouldn’t be working on Sundays, etc.) nor is the bible particularly consistent on certain matters. Such as vengeance and such.
I really don’t want to get into a theological discussion (it’s worse than talking politics on the internet), but any reasonable person with a modicum of knowledge about the bible can at least admit that it’s a conflicted jumble. At best.
When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.
-- Thomas Jefferson
Rob’s recently listened-to songs:
I really don’t want to get into a theological discussion
I appreciate and will honor your desires on that. However, you open the door to some discussion with this post on the Bible although you’re main interest may have been the sweet Georgia honeys.
By the wey you didn’t link to the article you referenced.
You don’t have to be a moron to be a liberal Democrat but it sure helps.
By the wey you didn’t link to the article you referenced.
Doc, debate away. I’m just not much interested in it.
About 10 years ago I spent a lot of time, a year or so, exploring my own spirituality and the history of the various major religions and I’ve pretty much come to my conclusions on them. I’m not claiming to be 100% right, but I believe what I believe.
When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.
-- Thomas Jefferson
Rob’s recently listened-to songs:
1. It is important to note that The Northwest Ordinace, which was used to guide territories in gaining statehood, strongly encouraged that each state mandate Bible teaching in all public schools.
2. Rob said: “Modern Christians certainly don’t practice everything in the bible (else we wouldn’t be working on Sundays, etc.)” Except he forgets to tell us where we can find in Holy Scriptures wherein not working on Sunday was ever a requirement for Christians to either gain or maintain their Salvation. Sabbath observance and refraining from labor was a requirement under the Old Covenant of the Law, never under the New Covenant of Grace. Because it was never a requirement, only and encouragement for Christians to gather together on the Lord’s Day (Sunday) for fellowship and worship, in Remembrance of the Lord’s Resuurection. There was no congregating place even called a Church during the Apostolic period.
3. Rob further states: “nor is the bible particularly consistent on certain matters. Such as vengeance and such.” Should he ever invest the time to read several very well documented tomes written to refute such contentions of inconsistencies, he would quickly discover that no real inconsistencies exist not does it ever present false information. These books also present exhaustive historical and archeological research materials on the historical accuracy of the Bible, which is the best documented book in all human history.
4. It is okay to reject Christianity, although I believe the penalty is severe indeed; but I am disappointed that Rob of all people only regurgitated very old charges against Holy Scripture and the existence of God, rather than be honest and say he rejects Christ and the Church without having really invested the time and effort to investigate its myriad of claims.
No matter the age or state of health, for a military man it is always glorious to tilt at windmills, rescue a fair Dulcinea and be a gallant knight in armor in a glorious cause.
Should he ever invest the time to read several very well documented tomes written to refute such contentions of inconsistencies, he would quickly discover that no real inconsistencies existnot does it ever present false information.
A quick read of the first chapters in the first book would disprove what you just said. In Geneses there is actually two creation stories. In one story people are created first. In the other the created last. So which is it?
"All the perplexities, confusion and distress in America arise not from defects in their Constitution or Confederation, nor from want of honor or virtue, so much as downright ignorance of the nature of coin, credit and circulation.”
- John Adams
Rob--check It’s Always Sunny in Philadelphia season one “Charlie wants an abortion”:
A woman Charlie dated in the past arrives to claim that her child is his. The woman forces Charlie to baby-sit the unruly child for her, which prompts Charlie to comment that he wish he could have done the “right thing” ten years ago: make her get an abortion. This sparks a debate with the pro-life Mac, who then goes to an anti-abortion organization to get more information. There he meets attractive pro-life protester Megan (Autumn Reeser), who Mac tries to impress by acting like a rabid “pro-life” activist.
Dee attends the rally to fight for the pro-choice side, and Dennis joins her so he can meet women. His lack of success sparks a riot when he tries to literally cross the fence to the pro-life side for more attractive women. After seducing Megan into having sex with him, Mac is shocked when Megan tells him that she’s pregnant. Mac responds by demanding Megan have an abortion. She then reveals that she was lying to test Mac’s honesty about his beliefs.
Best part is the women at the Pro Life versus the Pro Choice rallies. Dennis hitting on the Pro Choice women, who are almost all lesbians and unattractive. Classic.
Troy_Pineri:
First: Chapter One of Genesis is a broad view of the Creation story, with verse 27 mentioning the fact God created a male and a female as part of his special creation - period. Then in Chapter two, verse 7, God the Spirit gives us more details concerning the creation of the man (Adam) and in verses 21-23 we get more details about the creation of Eve the first female. No contradictions, but like many books of history we read a broad synopsis first and then each part is broken down into more detailed accounts.
“The many seeming contradictions and inconsistencies rather than disprove Scripture, they actually constitute a very convincing proof of the reliability of the Bible. If three witnesses who claimed to have seen an accident each described it in exactly the same language, word for word, one would have good reason to suspect collusion and to throw out their testimony. However, if each described it in his own words and from his own perspective, one would tend to believe them. Moreover, if there seemed to be some conflict in their testimonies, but if that conflict were resolved by probing deeper into the incident, that would add significantly to the trustworthiness of their testimony. So it is with the seeming contradictions in the Bible.”
We cannot detail herein the many alleged contradictions, but I assure you that in respect to every detail the Bible is consistent, accurate and reliable. I would suggest you read “In Defense of the Faith,” by Dave Hunt (Harvest House Publishers), as it provides many answers to challenging questions about the Bible.
No matter the age or state of health, for a military man it is always glorious to tilt at windmills, rescue a fair Dulcinea and be a gallant knight in armor in a glorious cause.
No contradictions
Neiman you’ll have to forgive me I don’t a Bible with me; but in one creation story Man was the first part of creation and in the other Man is at the end of creation. That is a significant contradiction. How does Hunt bridge that gap?
"All the perplexities, confusion and distress in America arise not from defects in their Constitution or Confederation, nor from want of honor or virtue, so much as downright ignorance of the nature of coin, credit and circulation.”
- John Adams
If the girl in the photo were to sleep with any of the religious men on this blog she’d be so nonplussed that she’d “convert” to Atheism on the spot. And besides, Atheists give better head to their women. We know where the clitoris is! Thanks sex-ed in public schools! 
Troy: Creating man is in Chapter One, verses 26-27, out of 31 verses in that chapter, with 28-31 relating to man’s dominion over the earth and God mentioned the rest of creation before the creation of man passages. So, it can reasonably be concluded that creating human beings was the last part of Divine Creation. Then in Chapter Two, in the verses previously mentioned, as I stated, God simply focuses our attention upon the human creation in more detail, but the two stories of the human creation were the same act in time, just recorded in two parts.
Hunt actually goes into great detail about a myriad of biblical controversies, with the creation story only being a small part of his excellent book. There are other books, Like Josh McDowell’s “Evidence that Demands a Verdict,” wherein this former atheist provides exhaustive scientific (archeology)and historical information in support of the accuracy of the Bible in a scholarly manner. Then there is “Mere Christianity,” by C.S. Lewis, another former atheist who details how he was convinced on a logical and rational basis of the accuracy and Truth of the Bible and of Christ being the Savior. These two latter works and many more that can be suggested are often written by former hard core atheists and great scholars in various fields of endeavor that have approached the Bible in a logical and rational manner and became convinced based on the available facts - evidence, of the accuracy of Scripture and were led to accept it as the inspired word of God, not by blind faith, but based on facts.
No matter the age or state of health, for a military man it is always glorious to tilt at windmills, rescue a fair Dulcinea and be a gallant knight in armor in a glorious cause.
Since God created everything, including the female anatomoy, I would have to believe He could and would direct even Christian men to find the Clitoris. The difference is, you apparently measure the worth of a woman solely on her ability to satisfy your sexual lusts; while any real Christian man loves his wife selflessly with God’s love, desiring to meet her needs more than his own own, and even if she were unable to engage in sexual intercourse the true Chritsian man would not leave her or cheat on her, like you would in a microsecond!
No matter the age or state of health, for a military man it is always glorious to tilt at windmills, rescue a fair Dulcinea and be a gallant knight in armor in a glorious cause.
What kind of moron attributes marital fidelity to a man’s blind faith in shit made up by a bunch of dead old men (bible). I think even Rob would call you out on that one.
I think your shriveled, pious raisins would not impress the girl in the photo. Her “O” spot would be neglected. She would not be screaming for G"O"d. “His” name would not be mentioned during or after. Not unless she fakes it. Faking is the same as lying and lying is a “sin”, right? So, since your wife fakes it she’s going to “Hell”, right?
It takes an Athiest to make a woman scream for G"O"d! We don’t have an imaginary superhero watching over us constraining us do the “right” thing. No. We can let loose and fuck like the true animals we are!
Justin, watched the entire IASIP on iTunes. Great stuff, though I found DeVito an annoying addition to the cast.
Hadtobesaid, what’s this “even Rob” stuff. I’m an atheist myself, though I certainly don’t suffer your delusions of grandeur.
Seriously, it’s morons like you who give atheists a bad name. Get a life.
When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.
-- Thomas Jefferson
Rob’s recently listened-to songs:
Since God created everything, including the female anatomy, I would have to believe He could and would direct even Christian men to find the Clitoris.
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha.
Ha ha ha ha ha.
Sorry, that was funny. Yea Neiman, He probably would. I concur. One’s faith bears little on whether or not one is good in the sack. I must say, in my experience, I have had the best luck with Jews and atheists, and the worst with catholics. Doesn’t mean there ain’t some seriously randy catholic or other Christian girls out there with ‘itchy figs’ who a Christian fellow can’t make take the lord’s name in vain in the verbal expression of certain ‘lower pleasures’.
Hadtobesaid:
What? I’m with Rob on this one. People who type crap like that probably can’t get it up in the real world. Gimme a break.
Ya know, preachers daughters are some of the wildest little party monsters you are likely to find. They have a real hard time keeping their panties on.
Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem
What about girls raised Catholic that stop practicing? Gotta make up for all those repressed sexual desires.
Ya know, preachers daughters are some of the wildest little party monsters you are likely to find. They have a real hard time keeping their panties on.
2H9 corrupter of protestant virgins.
Hey! Tell it straight, I’m the one got corrupted first. She is married to a Minister in South Tejas with a whole passel of younguns, last I heard.
Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem
The enticement to sin is always appealing to the flesh, but engaging in sin is only pleasurable for the moment, while the guilt and other consequences can last for a lifetime. By engaging in sexual intercourse outside the bonds of marriage cheats the person involved and their eventual life partner of the rewards that come with innocence in the marriage bed.
The man with only a penis for a concience may enjoy his pleasures for a season, yet he brings lasting harm to himself and every sexual partner. But, lets face it today marrying one person of the opposite gender and being faithful to them for a lifetime is no longer considered a positive thing by a very large percentage of the population, to our eternal shame.
No matter the age or state of health, for a military man it is always glorious to tilt at windmills, rescue a fair Dulcinea and be a gallant knight in armor in a glorious cause.
My eternal regret is not shooting a Nicaraguan Army captain in the head when I had the opportunity. God alone knows how many more children and women he abused and murdered during these 20 odd years.
Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem
Then in Chapter Two, in the verses previously mentioned, as I stated, God simply focuses our attention upon the human creation in more detail, but the two stories of the human creation were the same act in time, just recorded in two parts.
There is a contradiction here Neiman. Genesis 1, 1-26, Man is presented as the climax of God’s creation whereas in Genesis 2, 4b-25 God creates Man before the rest of creation.
"All the perplexities, confusion and distress in America arise not from defects in their Constitution or Confederation, nor from want of honor or virtue, so much as downright ignorance of the nature of coin, credit and circulation.”
- John Adams
No Troy: You are manufacturing a contradiction that simply does not exist. Genesis, Chapter One is the overview of God’s Special Creation. Chapter Two brings us more detail, those animals God had already created in Chapter One are mentioned again as being His creation and how he brought them, over how much time we do not know, before Adam to name them.
“Are there good answers to alleged Bible contradictions? If a person reads the Bible, without being on a mission to find contradictions, he/she will find the Bible to be understandable, consistent, and in harmony. Admittedly, yes, there are some passages that are difficult to explain. Yes, there are some passages of Scripture that seem to contradict other passages of Scripture. Why is this? The Bible was written by approximately 40 different authors over a period of around 1500 years. The Bible covers many different topics. The literature in the Bible is in different forms, i.e. poetry, history, teaching, prophecy. Each writer of a book of the Bible wrote their book(s) to a different audience, from a different perspective, and for a different purpose. As a result of all of these facts, we should expect some differences!
However, a difference is not the same thing as a contradiction. It is only a contradiction if there is conclusively no possible answer for how the verses or passages can be in agreement. Even if the answer has not yet been discovered, that does not mean an answer does not exist. Many skeptics and critics of the Bible have promoted a supposed contradiction in the Bible in relation to history or geography only to later be proven wrong once further archaeological evidence is discovered.”
No matter the age or state of health, for a military man it is always glorious to tilt at windmills, rescue a fair Dulcinea and be a gallant knight in armor in a glorious cause.
You are manufacturing a contradiction that simply does not exist. Genesis, Chapter One is the overview of God’s Special Creation. Chapter Two brings us more detail, those animals God had already created in Chapter One are mentioned again as being His creation and how he brought them, over how much time we do not know, before Adam to name them.
It is you that is manufactoring. The two creation stories YES 2 creation stories not one come from different oral traditions from within the Hebrew tradition. One group claimed that man came first and another group claimed that man claimed last. These two groups, one was called the Yawehists and the other slips my mind at present compromised and included both stories in the Penateauch.
"All the perplexities, confusion and distress in America arise not from defects in their Constitution or Confederation, nor from want of honor or virtue, so much as downright ignorance of the nature of coin, credit and circulation.”
- John Adams
Troy: The following is a mixture of my thoughts and those of Ord and a dictionary in response to your last post.
Forgive me for saying so, but I think you are guilty of eisegesis (Eisegesis is the approach to Bible interpretation where the interpreter tries to “force” the Bible to mean something that fits their existing belief or understanding of a particular issue or doctrine. People who interpret the Bible this way are usually not willing to let the Bible speak for itself and let the chips fall where they may. They set off with the up-front goal of trying to prove a point they already believe in, and everything they read and interpret is filtered through that paradigm. Stated another way, they engage in what the Bible refers to as “private interpretation”.) in your attempts to assert Genesis Chapter One and Two are two different Creation stories, thus being a contradiction.
“To the beginnings of things, how constantly is it alleged that “we have two contradictory accounts of the creation.” It is certain that the narratives in Gen. 1-2 are quite different in character and style, and view the work of creation from different standpoints. But they are not “contradictory”; they are, in fact, bound together in the closest manner as complementary. The second narrative, taken by itself, begins abruptly, with manifest reference to the first: “In the day that Jehovah Elohim made earth and heaven” (ver. 4). It is, in truth a misnomer to speak of chapter 2 as an account of the “creation” at all, in the same sense as chapter 1. It contains no account of the creation of either earth or heaven, or of the general world of vegetation; its interest centers in the making of man and woman, and everything in the narrative is regarded from that point of view.” Orr
When you choose to ignore the plain words of the narrative and look to extra-biblical sources you are engaging in eisegesis in the worst possible way, because you want desperately to believe a contradiction exists in Holy Scripture so you will be comforted that your rejection of God is based on logic and reason, while nothing could be further from the truth!
No matter the age or state of health, for a military man it is always glorious to tilt at windmills, rescue a fair Dulcinea and be a gallant knight in armor in a glorious cause.
It is, in truth a misnomer to speak of chapter 2 as an account of the “creation” at all, in the same sense as chapter 1. It contains no account of the creation of either earth or heaven, or of the general world of vegetation; its interest centers in the making of man and woman, and everything in the narrative is regarded from that point of view.” Orr
Bolding is mine. From Gen 2, 4-20
At the time when the LORD God made the earth and the heavens--
5
while as yet there was no field shrub on earth and no grass of the field had sprouted, for the LORD God had sent no rain upon the earth and there was no man to till the soil,
6
but a stream was welling up out of the earth and was watering all the surface of the ground--
7
the LORD God formed man out of the clay of the ground and blew into his nostrils the breath of life, and so man became a living being.
8
Then the LORD God planted a garden in Eden, in the east, and he placed there the man whom he had formed.
9
Out of the ground the LORD God made various trees grow that were delightful to look at and good for food, with the tree of life in the middle of the garden and the tree of the knowledge of good and bad.
10
A river rises in Eden to water the garden; beyond there it divides and becomes four branches.
11
The name of the first is the Pishon; it is the one that winds through the whole land of Havilah, where there is gold.
12
The gold of that land is excellent; bdellium and lapis lazuli are also there.
13
The name of the second river is the Gihon; it is the one that winds all through the land of Cush.
14
The name of the third river is the Tigris; it is the one that flows east of Asshur. The fourth river is the Euphrates.
15
The LORD God then took the man and settled him in the garden of Eden, to cultivate and care for it.
16
The LORD God gave man this order: “You are free to eat from any of the trees of the garden
17
except the tree of knowledge of good and bad. From that tree you shall not eat; the moment you eat from it you are surely doomed to die.”
18
The LORD God said: “It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a suitable partner for him.”
19
So the LORD God formed out of the ground various wild animals and various birds of the air, and he brought them to the man to see what he would call them; whatever the man called each of them would be its name.
20
The man gave names to all the cattle, all the birds of the air, and all the wild animals; but none proved to be the suitable partner for the man.
"All the perplexities, confusion and distress in America arise not from defects in their Constitution or Confederation, nor from want of honor or virtue, so much as downright ignorance of the nature of coin, credit and circulation.”
- John Adams
As far as eisegesis goes I feel that you are the guily party. It is you that a forcing the position that there are not contradictions yet you admit:
“The many seeming contradictions and inconsistencies rather than disprove Scripture, they actually constitute a very convincing proof of the reliability of the Bible.
and
Yes, there are some passages of Scripture that seem to contradict other passages of Scripture. Why is this? The Bible was written by approximately 40 different authors over a period of around 1500 years. The Bible covers many different topics. The literature in the Bible is in different forms, i.e. poetry, history, teaching, prophecy. Each writer of a book of the Bible wrote their book(s) to a different audience, from a different perspective, and for a different purpose. As a result of all of these facts, we should expect some differences!
From Webster:
con·tra·dic·tion
Pronunciation: “kän-tr&-’dik-sh&n
Function: noun
1 : act or an instance of contradicting
2 a : a proposition, statement, or phrase that asserts or implies both the truth and falsity of something b : a statement or phrase whose parts contradict each other
3 a : logical incongruity b : a situation in which inherent factors, actions, or propositions are inconsistent or contrary to one another
1dif·fer·ence
Pronunciation: ‘di-f&rn(t)s, ‘di-f(&
Function: noun
1 a : the quality or state of being differentb : an instance of differing in nature, form, or quality c archaic : a characteristic that distinguishes one from another or from the average d : the element or factor that separates or distinguishes contrasting situations
2 : distinction or discrimination in preference
3 a : disagreement in opinion : DISSENSION b : an instance or cause of disagreement
4 : the degree or amount by which things differ in quantity or measure; specifically : REMAINDER 2b(1)
5 : a significant change in or effect on a situation
Bolding Mine
So we should expect differences but there are no contradictions. When the order of events is cleary different.
"All the perplexities, confusion and distress in America arise not from defects in their Constitution or Confederation, nor from want of honor or virtue, so much as downright ignorance of the nature of coin, credit and circulation.”
- John Adams
1 In the beginning, when God created the heavens and the earth,
2 the earth was a formless wasteland, and darkness covered the abyss, while a mighty wind swept over the waters.
3
Then God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light.
4
God saw how good the light was. God then separated the light from the darkness.
5
God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” Thus evening came, and morning followed--the first day.
6
Then God said, “Let there be a dome in the middle of the waters, to separate one body of water from the other.” And so it happened:
7
God made the dome, and it separated the water above the dome from the water below it.
8
God called the dome “the sky.” Evening came, and morning followed--the second day.
9
Then God said, “Let the water under the sky be gathered into a single basin, so that the dry land may appear.” And so it happened: the water under the sky was gathered into its basin, and the dry land appeared.
10
God called the dry land “the earth,” and the basin of the water he called “the sea.” God saw how good it was.
11
Then God said, “Let the earth bring forth vegetation: every kind of plant that bears seed and every kind of fruit tree on earth that bears fruit with its seed in it.” And so it happened:
12
the earth brought forth every kind of plant that bears seed and every kind of fruit tree on earth that bears fruit with its seed in it. God saw how good it was.
13
Evening came, and morning followed--the third day.
14
Then God said: “Let there be lights in the dome of the sky, to separate day from night. Let them mark the fixed times, the days and the years,
15
and serve as luminaries in the dome of the sky, to shed light upon the earth.” And so it happened:
16
God made the two great lights, the greater one to govern the day, and the lesser one to govern the night; and he made the stars.
17
God set them in the dome of the sky, to shed light upon the earth,
18
to govern the day and the night, and to separate the light from the darkness. God saw how good it was.
19
Evening came, and morning followed--the fourth day.
20
Then God said, “Let the water teem with an abundance of living creatures, and on the earth let birds fly beneath the dome of the sky.” And so it happened:
21
God created the great sea monsters and all kinds of swimming creatures with which the water teems, and all kinds of winged birds. God saw how good it was,
22
and God blessed them, saying, “Be fertile, multiply, and fill the water of the seas; and let the birds multiply on the earth.”
23
Evening came, and morning followed--the fifth day.
24
Then God said, “Let the earth bring forth all kinds of living creatures: cattle, creeping things, and wild animals of all kinds.” And so it happened:
25
God made all kinds of wild animals, all kinds of cattle, and all kinds of creeping things of the earth. God saw how good it was.
26
Then God said: “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. Let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, the birds of the air, and the cattle, and over all the wild animals and all the creatures that crawl on the ground.”
27
God created man in his image; in the divine image he created him; male and female he created them.
"All the perplexities, confusion and distress in America arise not from defects in their Constitution or Confederation, nor from want of honor or virtue, so much as downright ignorance of the nature of coin, credit and circulation.”
- John Adams
The other thing is the Bible wasn’t created. It was assembled. Yes assembled, and the books that were chosen for inclusion, were by majority vote. The majority decided what was included and the minority was declared heratics. The Bible was debated, and as such compromises were made.
"All the perplexities, confusion and distress in America arise not from defects in their Constitution or Confederation, nor from want of honor or virtue, so much as downright ignorance of the nature of coin, credit and circulation.”
- John Adams
Troy: You are going to a lot of work to try and prove the Bible contains errors and contradictions, and the only possible motive I can think of is that you are an atheist and hate Christ and the Church.
It is important to note that the church did not create the canon; it did not determine which books would be called Scripture, the inspired Word of God. Instead, the church recognized, or discovered, which books had been inspired from their inception. Stated another way, “a book is not the Word of God because it is accepted by the people of God. Rather, it was accepted by the people of God because it is the Word of God. That is, God gives the book its divine authority, not the people of God. They merely recognize the divine authority which God gives to it.” (Geisler/Nix, GIB, 210)
There were five operating principles guiding those people recongizing the Canon, they are in brief:
1.Was the book written by a prophet of God? “If it was written by a spokesman for God, then it was the Word of God:’
2. Was the writer confirmed by acts of God? Frequently miracles separated the true prophets from the false ones. “Moses was given miraculous powers to prove his call of God (Ex. 4:1-9). Elijah triumphed over the false prophets of Baal by a supernatural act (1 Kin. 18). Jesus was ‘attested to ... by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him’ (Acts 2:22) .... [A] miracle is an act of God to confirm the Word of God given through a prophet of God to the people of God. It is the sign to substantiate his sermon; the miracle to confirm his message:
3. Did the message tell the truth about God? ”God cannot contradict Himself (2 Cor. 1:17-18), nor can He utter what is false (Heb. 6:18). Hence, no book with false claims can be the Word of God.” For reasons such as these, the church fathers maintained the policy, “if in doubt, throw it out.” This enhanced the “validity of their discernment of the canonical books:’
4. Does it come with the power of God? “The Fathers believed the Word of God is ‘living and active’ (Heb. 4:12), and consequently ought to have a transforming force for edification (2 Tim. 3:17) and evangelization (1 Pet. 1:23). If the message of a book did not effect its stated goal, if it did not have the power to change a life, then God was apparently not behind its message.” (Geisler, GIB, 228) The presence of God’s transforming power was a strong indication that a given book had His stamp of approval.
5. Was it accepted by the people of God? “Paul said of the Thessalonians, ‘We also constantly thank God that when you received from us the word of God’s message, you accepted it not as the word of men, but for what it really is, the word of God’ (1 Thess. 2:13). For whatever subsequent debate there may have been about a book’s place in the canon, the people in the best position to know its prophetic credentials were those who knew the prophet who wrote it. Hence, despite all later debate about the canonicity of some books, the definitive evidence is that which attests to its original acceptance by the contemporary believers.” (Geisler, GIB, 229) When a book was received, collected, read, and used by the people of God as the Word of God, it was regarded as canonical. This practice is often seen in the Bible itself.
The best defense of the faith, including the inerrancy of Scripture is “The New Evidence that Demands a Verdict,” by Josh McDowell - you ought to read it! I warn you it has big words, is lengthy and presents many, many skeptical arguments against the truth of Christianity.
No matter the age or state of health, for a military man it is always glorious to tilt at windmills, rescue a fair Dulcinea and be a gallant knight in armor in a glorious cause.
the only possible motive I can think of is that you are an atheist and hate Christ and the Church
or he could’ve given the preachers daughter a little ‘what for’ last night and is tossing in his chips on the non-silly side. sin is fun and the dirt nap is just like the dirt nap we all took before we were born. church preys on the unknown. the bible is inspired redaction. it is not ‘by God’. God is a word.
Sparkie: What if you are wrong? The price for being wrong might be greater than you are willing to pay.
I remember a story about The king and the Court Jester.
Becauser he was so often amused by him, the king gave his Court Jester a highly decorated staff as a symbol of him being the greatest fool in the kingdom. Then, many years later, the Jester was summoned to visit the king on his death bed.
The Jester asked, “Sire, what is the place like where you are going?”
The king replied, “I don’t know!”
The Jester continued, “Sire, what langauge do they speak in the place you are going?”
Puzzled at the questions, the king once again replied, “I don’t know!”
“Sire,” the Jester speaking again, asked, “What do you need for your journey where you are going?”
The king dismayed said, “I don’t know!
The Jester stepped forward abd handed his fools staff to the king. The king asked, “What is this for?”
“Sire,” the Jester replied, “You told me this staff is for the greatest fool in your kingdom. Sire, all your life you knew one day you must take this journey, yet you did nothing to find out what the next land was like, what langauge they spoke or what you needed for your journey. So, Sire, I must conclude that you are the greatest fool in the kingdom!”
Sparkie: I pass the fools staff along to you!
If you are blinded to the truth by your own intellect and ego and you discover after leaving this life that God is real; there will be no appeal, no forgiveness, whatever dark and painful fate awaits you over there will never be lifted, never end. That is a big price to pay for your pride!
No matter the age or state of health, for a military man it is always glorious to tilt at windmills, rescue a fair Dulcinea and be a gallant knight in armor in a glorious cause.
Neiman
Its not me who has admitted the bible is inspired redaction. It is inspired by God, not by God. God is a word. I read all that… in the bible.
Rev. Sparkie: Could you please educate me and show me where, in the Bible, it says God is just a word and that the Bible (Scripture) is not inspired by him. Maybe I too can become convinced of atheism.
No matter the age or state of health, for a military man it is always glorious to tilt at windmills, rescue a fair Dulcinea and be a gallant knight in armor in a glorious cause.
Neiman
I said: “It is inspired by God, not by God.”
In the gospel of John, it clearly reads, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.”
Logos. Heady.
You ask, “Could you please educate me and show me where, in the Bible, it says God is just a word and that the Bible (Scripture) is not inspired by him?”
Why do you ask the obvious?
I’ll be here next Sunday folks.
IMO
Living according to a book inspired by a word seems like some circular hippie/post modernist exercise.
is important to note that the church did not create the canon; it did not determine which books would be called Scripture, the inspired Word of God. Instead, the church recognized, or discovered, which books had been inspired from their inception. Stated another way, “a book is not the Word of God because it is accepted by the people of God. Rather, it was accepted by the people of God because it is the Word of God. That is, God gives the book its divine authority, not the people of God. They merely recognize the divine authority which God gives to it.”
If this is true, why is the Catholic Bible 7 books longer than the Protestant Bible?
"All the perplexities, confusion and distress in America arise not from defects in their Constitution or Confederation, nor from want of honor or virtue, so much as downright ignorance of the nature of coin, credit and circulation.”
- John Adams
The Jester continued, “Sire, what langauge do they speak in the place you are going?”
What language is spoken in the place you are going after death?
"All the perplexities, confusion and distress in America arise not from defects in their Constitution or Confederation, nor from want of honor or virtue, so much as downright ignorance of the nature of coin, credit and circulation.”
- John Adams
Rev. Sparkie: The Apostle John describes “The Word” as a personal and divine Being, self-existent, and coexistent from eternity with the Father, yet distinguished from him as The Son, the creator of all created things, the source of all life and light to men, and in the fullness of time incarnate among men, John 1:13,14. John’s gospel is full and clear respecting the divinity of Christ, John 20:31. Your interpretation of the Word as being inanimate (not a living thing) is therefore not consistent with the interpretation of the Jewish and early Christian prophets and apostles.
Troy: I am not a defender of the Roman Catholic Church and those books included in the canon that were used by the King James Translators fit the five spiritual criteria I mentioned earlier and are, I beleive, the sum total of what is need for righteousness and salvation.
No matter the age or state of health, for a military man it is always glorious to tilt at windmills, rescue a fair Dulcinea and be a gallant knight in armor in a glorious cause.
Troy: It is a Heavenly language, spoken of by Paul as the tongues of angels; and Christians being Born Again of the Spirit of God, already have that language with and in them and it will be commonly used among all the citizens of Heaven.
But, the language itself was not the point and you know it, it was investing the time and effort in trying to learn what is beyond that curtain separating this life from the next and if that life is as it is described in Holy Scripture, those hoping to find that Heavely rest would submit themselves to all required for Heavenly citizenship.
No matter the age or state of health, for a military man it is always glorious to tilt at windmills, rescue a fair Dulcinea and be a gallant knight in armor in a glorious cause.
Troy_Pineri,
Hello again. The Catholic Bible does have several more books or chapters. Thomas Jefferson shortened the Bible I use. It is important that one does at least ask questions. Some scientists who were atheists for decades have come to the conclusion that God must exist. The most recent was in England.
Today’s Sermon: Why Cain slew Able. The first sin after the fall. One of the fathers of the Colombine incident stated this. There was no rebuttal. It was not a gun, but a club. It was evil or sin in the world that caused the murder.
Communism is evil
Chief: These many arguments by non-believers are distractions, deliberately chosen to make them appear to have knowledge they don’t truly possess. The only matter of importance for any true Christian, be they Catholic or Protestant is salvation by grace through faith in Christ alone, and establishing an intimate daily communion and reliance upon Him. Doctrines, rituals, traditions, alleged contradictions and etcetera have nothing to do with Christianity, they are all things of man.
No matter the age or state of health, for a military man it is always glorious to tilt at windmills, rescue a fair Dulcinea and be a gallant knight in armor in a glorious cause.
Neiman. Your doctrine or theology seems to be aligned with mine-- Presbyterian PCA. Sometimes, questions can lead to enlightenment. In the pulpit today was a missionary in London who has had success with Muslims. Just talking about Jesus Christ enlightens many. Questions follow. Finally, one comes to accept The Lord. Those who do not even listen or turn away, head for the darkness, or corrupt are the most difficult to engage.
Communism is evil
I am not a defender of the Roman Catholic Church and those books included in the canon that were used by the King James Translators fit the five spiritual criteria I mentioned earlier and are, I beleive, the sum total of what is need for righteousness and salvation.
Many of the books that were not chosen for the first Bible are now unknown. If the Catholics made a mistake using your 5 criteria and had 5 books too many. How certain are you that there are five books that were left out?
Troy: You are going to a lot of work to try and prove the Bible contains errors and contradictions, and the only possible motive I can think of is that you are an atheist and hate Christ and the Church.
Untrue. And for arguments sake, I can’t follow alot of what you respond, because I don’t know the definitions of your words. For instance, what do you mean when you say, “the Church”?
Lastly,
Each writer of a book of the Bible wrote their book(s) to a different audience, from a different perspective, and for a different purpose. As a result of all of these facts, we should expect some differences!
Why is it so important to your faith, that there are no contradictions? The fact that there are contradictions in the Bible, would mean to me that the followers of God through out time would come to have a greater understanding of who he is. Today we know that when it floods or there is a hurricane, or a volcano erupts, that even in if your belief is that God is responsible, I believe that most modern Christians would blame it on a vengeful God.
You state:
‘We also constantly thank God that when you received from us the word of God’s message, you accepted it not as the word of men, but for what it really is, the word of God’ (1 Thess. 2:13).
You have to admit that the world view of the followers of God has been an influence on the books of Bible. The God of the Old Testament is quite different than the God of the New Testament.
"All the perplexities, confusion and distress in America arise not from defects in their Constitution or Confederation, nor from want of honor or virtue, so much as downright ignorance of the nature of coin, credit and circulation.”
- John Adams
Above it should read:
Today we know that when it floods or there is a hurricane, or a volcano erupts, that even in if your belief is that God is responsible, I believe that most modern Christians would not blame it on a vengeful God.
"All the perplexities, confusion and distress in America arise not from defects in their Constitution or Confederation, nor from want of honor or virtue, so much as downright ignorance of the nature of coin, credit and circulation.”
- John Adams
I am not a defender of the Roman Catholic Church and those books included in the canon
The Bible was not assembled by the Roman Catholic Church.
"All the perplexities, confusion and distress in America arise not from defects in their Constitution or Confederation, nor from want of honor or virtue, so much as downright ignorance of the nature of coin, credit and circulation.”
- John Adams
These many arguments by non-believers are distractions, deliberately chosen to make them appear to have knowledge they don’t truly possess. The only matter of importance for any true Christian, be they Catholic or Protestant is salvation by grace through faith in Christ alone, and establishing an intimate daily communion and reliance upon Him. Doctrines, rituals, traditions, alleged contradictions and etcetera have nothing to do with Christianity, they are all things of man.
So you admit that whethere or not there are contradiction within the Bible (they are) it doesn’t really matter because the Bible is a thing of man and not of God?
"All the perplexities, confusion and distress in America arise not from defects in their Constitution or Confederation, nor from want of honor or virtue, so much as downright ignorance of the nature of coin, credit and circulation.”
- John Adams
So you admit that whethere or not there are contradiction within the Bible (they are)
How sbout some biblcal references to back up your assertion, tp. I’m always curious about bold face statements made without providing factual evidence.
You don’t have to be a moron to be a liberal Democrat but it sure helps.
Troy: I apologize, I didn’t know how bad your reading skills were, I should have used simple, 3rd grade vocabularly and maybe that would have helped improve our communications.
The answer to your last post is: 1. No, I do not agree that there are any contradictions in the Holy Bible of any kind, whatsoever. 2. No I never said nor intimated that man had anything to do with the Holy Bible except as scribes directed by the Holy Spirit; and in the fact that their writing styles and personalities make each book read differently, but not so much as to introduce error or contradictions or dilute Divine Truth. 3. The “things of men” I mentioned were extra-biblical things like traditions, rituals and etcetera of individual sects, not in the Bible.
You said: “The Bible was not assembled by the Roman Catholic Church!” I never said nor implied it was, I simply said if they have additional chapters or books, I am not defending those additions to the King James version.
You said: “You have to admit that the world view of the followers of God has been an influence on the books of Bible. The God of the Old Testament is quite different than the God of the New Testament.”
I admit no such thing because it is not the truth. 1. The followers of Christ have had an influence on the Bible only to the degree that have imposed their individual interpretations on various passages and doctrine; but the Bible interprets itself and when the Holy Spirit thus opens the heart and minds of Christians to Him, then there are no divisions at all. 2. Again, you are wrong. It is the same God in both the Old and New Testaments, what changed was the requirements for Salvation, the Old being based on conscious obedience to the Law; and the New is Salvation by Grace, through faith in Christ and that alone. God through His Chosen people the Jews in the Old Testament times, ruled and dealt with them in a certain manner to demonstrate that it was impossible by self effort to please God by obedience to the Law; so that we would embrace the New Covenant wherein Christ bore the full penalty for all our sins and He also obeyed the Law perfectly on our behalf. This was all done so that many children of men would react to God’s love by a freewill choice, not under compulsion.
I will close this post and answer other questions and accusations in the following post.
No matter the age or state of health, for a military man it is always glorious to tilt at windmills, rescue a fair Dulcinea and be a gallant knight in armor in a glorious cause.
Man, I am so glad I did not step into this thread.
Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem
Troy said: ”for arguments sake, I can’t follow alot of what you respond, because I don’t know the definitions of your words. For instance, what do you mean when you say, “the Church”?” The Church is the totality of those human beings having accepted Jesus as their Savior and Lord; and even in many quite faulty, heterodox denominations there are still members there having been Born Again of the Spirit and together with all believers, those having already gone home to be with the Lord, those alive now and those yet to be saved are the Church of Jesus Christ. It is not any demonination, sect or movement or building.
You also asked: ”Why is it so important to your faith, that there are no contradictions?” For God to exist He must be absolutely perfect in every way, all-present, all-knowing, all-powerful. If God exists, and “if” does not mean I have any doubts but to speak to those who have such doubts; and He created all things including human beings, He would have to have a desire to communicate His Will and Plan for humanity to them, and using our fellow human beings He would have created the Bible for our benefit. If God did not desire to make sure He communicated His Word perfectly at all times and if He allowed contradictions and errors, then He obviously is indifferent about communicating with His human Creation and cannot be God at all. If He did desire to communicate perfectly with His human creation and yet was unable to control His human scribes perfectly, then He is not all-powerful and cannot be God at all.
God is the Divine Creator, His very existence and our ability to trust in Him absolutely as touching everything in our lives including and especially our Salvation, depends upon His being willing and able to communicate His Will and Way to His human creation without flaw of any kind. If He fails at any point He does not exist, He cannot exist. That is why it is so critical that there be absolutely no contradictions in Holy Scripture.
I must add that veryy are and incredibly minor transription errors have occured throughout human history, but not so much as to have any impact whatsoever regarding the Truth of God’s Word and since there are more ancient, original scriptural documents in existence than for any other written work of antiquity, those rare and incredbly minor errors are able to be seen and on no occasion have any such errors changed Scripture in any real way.
No matter the age or state of health, for a military man it is always glorious to tilt at windmills, rescue a fair Dulcinea and be a gallant knight in armor in a glorious cause.
Speaking of books that were left out, I once read one of them that was quite humorous. It takes place when Jesus was just a child. The odd thing was that it made him seem kind of evil. In one part, he uses his ‘God powers’ to kill another child.
Man, I am so glad I did not step into this thread.
Huh? Wasn’t it you who stepped in to tell us of your exploits of corrupting preachers’ daughters?
