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Thursday, March 30, 2006

George Will Right And Wrong On Illegal Immigration

Here is an interesting George Will column about the illegal immigration problem.

First, my favorite part:

[Border] control belongs at the top of the agenda, for four reasons. First, control of borders is an essential attribute of sovereignty. Second, conditions along the border mock the rule of law. Third, large rallies by immigrants, many of them here illegally, protesting more stringent control of immigration reveal that many immigrants have, alas, assimilated: They have acquired the entitlement mentality created by America's welfare state, asserting an entitlement to exemption from the laws of the society they invited themselves into. Fourth, giving Americans a sense that borders are controlled is a prerequisite for calm consideration of what policy that control should serve.


Absolutely. There is no excuse for not securing our borders. Whatever we do with the illegal immigrants already in this country, we should all agree that stopping the influx of illegals at the border is a must.

However, that question of what to do with the illegals already here is where my opinion diverges from Will's:

Of the nation's illegal immigrants — estimated to be at least 11 million, a cohort larger than the combined populations of 12 states — 60 percent have been here at least five years. Most have roots in their communities. Their children born here are U.S. citizens. We are not going to take the draconian police measures necessary to deport 11 million people. They would fill 200,000 buses in a caravan stretching bumper-to-bumper from San Diego to Alaska — where, by the way, 26,000 Latinos live. And there are no plausible incentives to get the 11 million to board the buses. . . .

Facts, a conservative (John Adams) said, are stubborn things, and regarding immigration, true conservatives take their bearings from facts such as those in the preceding paragraph. Conservatives should want, as the president proposes, a guest worker program to supply what the U.S. economy demands — immigrant labor for entry-level jobs. Conservatives should favor a policy of encouraging unlimited immigration by educated people with math, engineering, technology or science skills that America's education system is not sufficiently supplying.


This is the part of the argument for guest worker programs that really irks me. Any time we talk about deportation the guest worker crowd pretends like we're going to try and round the illegal immigrants up in the course of a week and ship them en masse across the border. If that were an easy thing to do we should absolutely do it, but as Will points out believe we could do it is foolish. At this point people like Will conclude that a guest worker program is the only viable alternative to mass deportation, but in this he's wrong mostly because the "mass deportation" argument is a straw-man. Nobody is arguing for mass deportation. What is being argued for is making illegal immigration a more serious crime. If we are going to increase enforcement the border it only makes sense that we should increase enforcement here at home.

This is not a call for loading up illegals on buses and taking them back across the border and those suggesting that it is are fools. Even after we increase the penalty for being here illegally it will likely take decades before all of the illegals are captured and deported. Thus the exodus of illegals will be gradual, not immediate.

I agree with Will that new, more open legal immigration processes need to be established. In fact, I am convinced that increased border security and increased enforcement of immigration laws will not work without it. But I will never, ever be in favor of a guest worker program or any other sort of amnesty for those who have already broken our laws by coming here.

Comments

Avatar for Greg

For example, take a husband and wife, both illegal immigrants, middle class & own their own home in a suburban neighborhood. They have a few kids who attend public school. The parents have steady jobs at local businesses. Then what?

Greg on March 30, 2006 at 04:28 pm
Avatar for Puzzlefeet

 Rob, I think this paragraph from Will’s comment is equally important: 

"And conservatives should favor reducing illegality by putting illegal immigrants on a path out of society’s crevices and into citizenship by paying fines and back taxes and learning English. Faux conservatives absurdly call this price tag on legal status "amnesty." Actually, it would prevent the emergence of a sullen, simmering subculture of the permanently marginalized, akin to the Arab ghettos in France. The House-passed bill, making it a felony to be in the country illegally, would make 11 million people permanently ineligible for legal status. To what end?"

Rob, according to you  we catch them and send them back across the border.  You says it will take decades to round them all up.  By then many of them will be so old that we can easily catch them because they will be too old to run, even though they have children in their forties and grandchildren who are citizens.  But it will take decades, that way the citizens won’t notice that we are rounding them up.  How much will decades of rounding up these immigrants cost.  So at least twenty years. That’s half a million immigrants a year right now, that’s about 41,000 people per month for the next twenty years.  Again, I hardly thing the American people have the stomach to watch the rounding up of these families on the nightly TV and you know that the MSM that you dislike so much will go out of their way to show these in living color every single night of the week. So unless you ban the MSM media in the next few years and only allow Fox News and the Washingon Times the deportation will never go on for decades.

I think we’ll notice the rounding up of 41,000 people per month.  You may not be in favor of it Rob, but ideportation of 11 m will neverhappen and there will be some sort of path to citizenship. 

Puzzlefeet on March 30, 2006 at 05:52 pm
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Puzzle, you come up with the number of 41,000/month.  Who says we have to do it in two decades?  I say we raise the penalty and then deport the illegals as law enforcement comes across them.  That, coupled with stiff border enforcement and relaxed legal immigration requirements, will solve the problem.


The war against illegal plunder has been fought since the beginning of the world. But how is… legal plunder to be identified? Quite simply. See if the law takes from some persons what belongs to them, and gives it to other persons to whom it does not belong. See if the law benefits one citizen at the expense of another by doing what the citizen himself cannot do without committing a crime. Then abolish this law without delay … If such a law is not abolished immediately it will spread, multiply and develop into a system.

Frédéric Bastiat, The Law

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

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Rob on March 30, 2006 at 06:06 pm
Avatar for Puzzlefeet

What does come across them mean?  Like what we are doing now?  Or stepped up rounding up.  Going to businesses and checking them out?  Driving through neighborhoods and checking?  What exactly does "come across them" mean? What penalty?  Throw them in jail and then deport them? or just deport them so we don’t have to fill up our state run jail or federal detention centers.  This will grow government by leaps and bounds. As we come across them is the policy now. 

Puzzlefeet on March 30, 2006 at 06:17 pm
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"Come across them" means if they get stopped for a traffic ticket and are found to be illegal, they’re arrested and deported.  If the police report to a domestic disturbance and they’re found to be illegal, they’re arrested and deported.  If they’re caught working under the table for a landscaping company, they’re arrested and deported.

I actually don’t care what penalties are applied, just so long as we get them out of the country as soon as possible.

And there is no need to grow the government.  As you’ve pointed out, this is what we do now...except that we don’t take it seriously enough (it is just a misdemeanor) and we don’t do it fast enough (the deportation process takes too long). 


The war against illegal plunder has been fought since the beginning of the world. But how is… legal plunder to be identified? Quite simply. See if the law takes from some persons what belongs to them, and gives it to other persons to whom it does not belong. See if the law benefits one citizen at the expense of another by doing what the citizen himself cannot do without committing a crime. Then abolish this law without delay … If such a law is not abolished immediately it will spread, multiply and develop into a system.

Frédéric Bastiat, The Law

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

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Rob on March 30, 2006 at 06:34 pm
Avatar for robert108

First of all, the "mass deportation is impossible" meme is just an excuse for not addressing a real problem.  It is possible that many illegals would leave on their own if we make it hot enough for them, especially if they face being permanently dispelled with a felony collar.  Right now, they have no incentive to leave, and because of permissiveness of those who think like Puzzlefeet, they think if they get away with breaking the law long enough, they will be allowed to stay with no penalty.  We have to furnish incentives for them to either leave or legalize themselves.

robert108 on March 30, 2006 at 06:40 pm
Avatar for robert108

I meant "expelled", not "dispelled".  In reply to the "growing govt" comment(strange from a unionist leftie), this is the area to grow govt.-national security.  We need to "pay for it"(in leftiespeak) by shrinking social programs.  At least our tax money would be accomplishing something.

robert108 on March 30, 2006 at 06:42 pm
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You know, you here about a lot of these illegals making multiple trips back and forth to Mexico.  If we were to crack down on illegals and loosen up legal immigration channels  I would expect that a lot of them might go back to Mexico and come back into the country legally.

Does that sound round-about? Yes, but we can’t just grant them amnesty.  That sends the wrong message, and the messages we send are important.  They have to know that they have to obey our laws.


The war against illegal plunder has been fought since the beginning of the world. But how is… legal plunder to be identified? Quite simply. See if the law takes from some persons what belongs to them, and gives it to other persons to whom it does not belong. See if the law benefits one citizen at the expense of another by doing what the citizen himself cannot do without committing a crime. Then abolish this law without delay … If such a law is not abolished immediately it will spread, multiply and develop into a system.

Frédéric Bastiat, The Law

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

robport.gif border=0

Rob on March 30, 2006 at 06:43 pm
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