Geneva Contention

The Wall Street Journal:

The media are concentrating on the politics of the intra-Republican fight over military tribunals and detainee treatment, which last week saw the Senate Armed Services Committee move a bill substantially different from what the White House wants. But the stakes here are far more serious: To wit, if Senators John McCain, John Warner, Lindsey Graham and Susan Collins get their way, aggressive interrogation as an antiterror intelligence tool will effectively end.
Thanks to last year’s McCain Amendment, the Defense Department is already required to give detainees in its custody better treatment than American police must give common criminals. The new Army Field Manual doesn’t even allow for good cop/bad cop routines against Iraqi and Afghan insurgents if threats of any kind are conveyed or implied. This restraint is not required by the Geneva Conventions, which clearly distinguish between lawful and unlawful combatants — the latter being deemed to have fewer rights because they have violated the rules of war by fighting out of uniform or targeting civilians.
Now the four GOP Senators and most Democrats are working to put CIA interrogators under similarly restrictive rules. If they get their way, they will make it impossible for any government agency to squeeze the next al Qaeda terrorist who may have information about a ticking bomb in an American city.
At issue now is something called Common Article 3 of the Geneva Conventions, which the Supreme Court ruled this summer in Hamdan v. Rumsfeld applies to our conflict with al Qaeda. This was a dreadful decision, since Article 3 is intended to be applied to an “armed conflict not of an international character” — i.e., a civil war. But it is now the law, and the question going forward is how to interpret Article 3′s ambiguous prohibition against “outrages upon personal dignity, in particular humiliating and degrading treatment.”
That clause can mean just about anything depending on the eye of the beholder. To pick one example, U.S. human rights groups have alleged that using women to question Islamist prisoners is “humiliating and degrading.” But for the U.S. to bar women interrogators might well violate our own civil rights laws. What’s more, the definition of an “outrage” is context-dependent. What’s outrageous when dealing with the likes of 9/11 mastermind Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, or a terrorist who might know about imminent plots, is clearly different than what’s outrageous when dealing with a lawful combatant or prisoner of war.
The Bush Administration has proposed to deal with this ambiguity by laying down a clear set of rules specifying conduct it considers acceptable and unacceptable under Article 3. We think it is perfectly legitimate to interpret Article 3, as the Administration does, in a way that permits aggressive interrogation of some detainees. Some people may disagree. But it is wrong to assert that merely attempting to interpret “outrageous,” “humiliating” and “degrading” is to somehow rewrite the Geneva Conventions, as the critics charge.

Read the whole thing.
I think the Bush administration’s desire to define what is “outrageous,” “humiliating” and/or “degrading” under Article III of the Geneva Conventions just makes sense. Unfortunately, some in Congress like John McCain oppose any effort to define those terms for our troops:

…I oppose unilaterally reinterpreting in law Geneva Common Article 3. Weakening the Geneva protections is not only unnecessary, but would set an example to other countries, with less respect for basic human rights, that they could issue their own legislative “reinterpretations.” This puts our military personnel and others directly at risk in this and future wars.
“Our CIA interrogators are on the front lines of this conflict, and I respect their service. There is nothing in our bill that would require the closure of the CIA’s detainee program. Our legislation protects them from unfair exposure to criminal and civil liability. And it maintains intact international obligations that protect their rights. To do any less risks our reputation, our moral standing and the lives of those Americans who risk everything to defend our country.”

McCain’s stance on this matter would leave the definition of “outrageous,” etc. treatment of detainees up to the U.S. Justice Department. Now tell me, what is the better approach to this situation? Should we have an open Congressional debate about what does and does not violate Article III and then codify the results of that debate in the law for our troops and everyone else in the world to see or should we leave defining Article III up to the Justice Department which will likely define said terms in secret memos? Something that would leave our military open to more blustering, over zealous partisan attacks from the like of Dick “Gitmo Is A Gulag” Durbin?
I’m surprised by the number of Democrats who are lining up against the President on this issue. A routine criticism of the President from the left focuses on the Bush administration’s lack of transparency and accountability. Well, what is more transparent than solid, well-defined list of what our CIA agents can and cannot do while interrogating the enemies of this country?
This is no time for ambiguity and inaction in the war on terror. Congress has dragged its feet for years in giving approval for a tribunal system for war on terror tribunals, now they’re balking at giving our CIA agents well-defined rules for interrogations.
Many complain about the President’s “power grab” in relation to the war on terror, but I think it has become clear in recent months that if the war on terror had been left up to Congress we wouldn’t have seen near the progress we have.

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  • http://Array Bat One

    That isn’t ‘judicial activism’ – that is just the way grants of extraterritoriality work.

    Ken,

    Sadly, we are still one Justice short of rationality.

  • http://www.freerepublicans.com/ FreeRepublicans.com

    Rob,

    Then just effin ignore me from now on since all you can do is call people names.

    This subject has nothing to do with political science so WTF are you talking about?

    Ken,

    If you are a lawyer, explain this from the case you cited:

    The power of Congress under Art. I, 8, cl. 14, of the Constitution, “To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces,” taken in conjunction with the Necessary and Proper Clause, does not extend to civilians – even though they may be dependents living with servicemen on a military base.

    Are not CIA agents civilian?

    Under our Constitution, courts of law alone are given power to try civilians for their offenses against the United States.

    And is this phrase the basis for the Hamadan ruling?

  • http://www.kenmccracken.blogspot.com/ Ken McCracken

    Moreover, the court found in Rasul v. Bush that federal courts have extraterritorial jurisdiction over GITMO:

    By the express terms of its agreements with Cuba, the United States exercises complete jurisdiction and control over the Guantanamo Base, and may continue to do so permanently if it chooses. Respondents concede that the habeas statute would create federal-court jurisdiction over the claims of an American citizen held at the base. Considering that §2241 draws no distinction between Americans and aliens held in federal custody, there is little reason to think that Congress intended the statute’s geographical coverage to vary depending on the detainee’s citizenship. Aliens held at the base, like American citizens, are entitled to invoke the federal courts’ §2241 authority. Pp. 12–15.

    That isn’t ‘judicial activism’ – that is just the way grants of extraterritoriality work.

  • http://www.freerepublicans.com/ FreeRepublicans.com

    Again, you just don’t know what you’re talking about.

    I’ll just quit talking then.

  • sayanything-42

    freep,

    Drink deeply of the Sysephean font…

    Out Here
    Rodney Graves
    rodney.g.graves@gmail.com

  • Pilgrim

    More and more Mccain is showing himself to be unstable, something he was accused of when he made presidential noises once before. I dismissed it at the time as cheap shot poitics. I’m not so sure now.

  • http://www.freerepublicans.com/ FreeRepublicans.com

    Rob,

    If your willing to give the Courts final authority on one issue, then from a principled standpoint, you must be willing to give them final authority on all issues.

    Judicial Activism is when the Courts unilateral take the authority to make judgements as what the policy should be.

    The Supreme Court overturning legislation is not judicial activism. But when the Supreme Court alters how legislation is enforced instead of telling the Congress to try again, it sure as hell is judicial activism.

  • http://SayAnythingBlog.com The_Whistler_ofnd

    By design, the Supreme Court has no more or no less power than the other two branches.

    Not correct, the Supreme court has less. In no place does the constitution say separate but equal.

  • http://SayAnythingBlog.com The_Whistler_ofnd

    Yes, it does. The Supreme Court has all the authority it needs to apply the Constitution, the laws passed by Congress and the laws set by international treaty which the U.S. has agreed to (Geneva Conventions) to any given situation involving Americans.

    That you don’t want the high court to have that authority is neither here nor there.

    US Constitution Article III Section 2.

    In all the other cases before mentioned, the Supreme Court shall have appellate jurisdiction, both as to law and fact, with such exceptions, and under such regulations as the Congress shall make.

    Not to reopen old wounds, but Congress has the ultimate say on the jurisdiction of the Supreme Court.

  • http://www.kenmccracken.blogspot.com/ Ken McCracken

    Are not CIA agents civilian?

    Yes they are, which means that they cannot be tried under the Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ). They can, however, be tried under other federal laws that apply to civilians. And they are entitled to their full Constitutional protections overseas, and the Supreme Court can rule on their appeals.

    Under our Constitution, courts of law alone are given power to try civilians for their offenses against the United States.

    That depends – enemy combatants taken from the battlefield are entitled to a ruling as to whether or not they are ‘unlawful combatants’ before a military commission or a military tribunal – which I would argue is in fact a ‘court of law.’

  • http://www.freerepublicans.com/ FreeRepublicans.com

    So you’re saying that if Congress passed a law removing the President’s power to veto the Supreme Court could not overrule it as unconstitutional?

    You’re a clown.

    If I am a clown, your a simpleton. Congress couldn’t pass a law to do that.

    But if Congress passed a Amendment by 66%+1, and 3/4 of the State Legislature ratified that Amendment the Supreme Court would have no say in the matter.

    We’re not talking about rules of engagement, you dipshit.

    Aren’t we?

    Didn’t the Supreme Court force the President to change his policy on how our forces operate? Whether the matter before the court was the rules of engagement, the end effect is the same – the rules have been changed and the Court initiated the change.

  • http://SayAnythingBlog.com The_Whistler_ofnd

    Hot Rod:

    It seems that the Congress and elsupremo court intend to grant POW status to terrorists that do not qualify for such treatment.

  • jpe

    This issue is resolved over at Patterico’s blog. The bottom line is that Rob’s take on the McCain law and Bush’s is flat-out wrong. Shocker, I know, but there ya go.

  • sayanything-42

    brian,

    Here begins the lesson:

    Under the Laws of Land Warfare (of which the Geneva Convetions relative to the treatment of prisoners of war is a section), enemy combatants once captured are detained until paroled (realease on their solemn bond not to rejoin the conflict), exchanged, or until the cessation of hostilities. You will find this mentioned in the preface of Geneva III.

    Geneva III then specifies the requirements which combatants must observe to be eligible for treatment as a Prisoner of War. These requirements are specified in Article 4. Article 5 then reads:

    The present Convention shall apply to the persons referred to in Article 4 from the time they fall into the power of the enemy and until their final release and repatriation.
    Should any doubt arise as to whether persons, having committed a belligerent act and having fallen into the hands of the enemy, belong to any of the categories enumerated in Article 4, such persons shall enjoy the protection of the present Convention until such time as their status has been determined by a competent tribunal.

    The “many hundreds released” have had their tribunals and either been determined to have not been a combatant, or have been paroled as believed to no longer pose a threat of rejoining the conflict. One should note that violation of such a parole is a war crime punishable by death.

    Enemy combatants who do not pass the tests of Geneva III Article III are illegal combatants, which too is a war crime punishable by death.

    Rather than simply carrying out the traditional sentance of a bullet to the neck for these illegal combatants, the President has decided to institute military tribunals (as has been done dating back to the American Civil War) to try these illegal combatants for war crimes (violations of the Customary Laws of Warfare). Note here that bonafide PoW’s are NOT subject to trial for actions prior to their capture.

    Now note that the Military Tribunals, as proposed, are to be open except when hearing secret evidence, the release of which could be injurious to national security. Note also that this a question to be answered by the presiding officer, and that the defendant’s appointed counsel (not to be confused with any oustide counsel they may retain) will be present for all such deliberations and will be privy to all such evidence admited.

    Someone here is demonstrably wrong on the facts. That would be you, brian.

    Out Here
    Rodney Graves
    rodney.g.graves@gmail.com

  • jpe

    I don’t think SCOTUS has the jurisdiction to tell the President what he can do with non-US citizens off American soil.

    The Congress tells the President what he can and can’t do; the courts merely judge whether the President has violated their laws.

  • http://www.freerepublicans.com/ FreeRepublicans.com

    Greg,

    If the President believed he was right to not give the detainees POW status, than what SCOTUS tells him should be of little consequence.

    Just because SCOTUS wants to force us to fight this war with gloves on, doesn’t mean we have to.

    Let’s not forget that John Kerry wanted to give them POW status as well and the voters rejected him.

  • HG

    We might as well just shoot them where we find them and not even worry about hauling them back.

    If we can’t get any information out of them legally, then by all means drop’em.

  • sayanything-42

    freerepublicans.con,

    Treating Detainees in accordance with Geneva III does NOT vest them with the protections afforded to Prisoners of War unless the detainees meet the strictures of Article 4.

    And, for possible (though unlikely) penetration I repeat:

    Treating Detainees in accordance with Geneva III does NOT vest them with the protections afforded to Prisoners of War unless the detainees meet the strictures of Article 4.

    Once a detainee is determined to be an illegal combatant as per article 5:

    The present Convention shall apply to the persons referred to in Article 4 from the time they fall into the power of the enemy and until their final release and repatriation. Should any doubt arise as to whether persons, having committed a belligerent act and having fallen into the hands of the enemy, belong to any of the categories enumerated in Article 4, such persons shall enjoy the protection of the present Convention until such time as their status has been determined by a competent tribunal.

    They are explicitly no longer subject to the protections of Geneva III. They are, at that point, war crimminals subject to summary execution.

    All of which is as per.

    Check your assumptions at the door.

    Out Here
    Rodney Graves
    rodney.g.graves2gmail.com

  • http://www.freerepublicans.com/ FreeRepublicans.com

    The notion that we are too good or too noble to harshly and ruthlessly interrogate those who have taken up arms to destroy us is adolescent sophistry of the worst, and most dangerous, sort.

    Exactly!

    If this is a war for our collective survival, the “high road” has no place in our methodology.

  • http://www.freerepublicans.com/ FreeRepublicans.com

    HG,

    I would have said that a month ago as well.

    But since Bush decided to cave to those liberal judges rather than to continue to defy them, we can no long blame those judges.

    The judges did not make the ultimate decision, Bush did.

  • http://www.kenmccracken.blogspot.com/ Ken McCracken

    To say the Supreme Court has any jurisdiction over anyone not on U.S. soil is laughable.

    To say the Constitution applies to Americans no matter where he are at a given moment has no basis in reality.

    Federal laws, and thus the Supreme Court’s interpretation of them, applies to all United States citizen no matter where they are in the world.

    Not only do federal laws follow US citizens around the world, but the Bill of Rights does also, as famously explained in the landmark case of Reid v. Covert.

  • gregdn

    Likwidshoe:

    I’m supporting a Republican senator on this issue!
    How is this ‘unthinkingly partisan’?

  • Bat One

    The very fact that John McCain was a POW during the Vietnam war, and spent all those years being truly tortured at the “Hanoi Hilton” is exactly why his opinion on this matter should be discounted.

    The notion that we are too good or too noble to harshly and ruthlessly interrogate those who have taken up arms to destroy us is adolescent sophistry of the worst, and most dangerous, sort.

    Likewise, the idea that our troops are somehow “safer” in combat or captivity if we adhere to a nicer, more gentle standard of treatment for those we capture is pathetically, laughably, indefensibly stupid, an absurdly dangerous delusion that has no support either in logic or experience.

    The fact of the matter is we tried a policy of “nice,” of restrained response to the provocation of deadly attack. Both Usama bin Laden and Aymen al Zawahiri are on record as interpreting our “limited response” in Somalia and elsewhere as an indication that the US has no real will to fight back, thus encouraging more attacks.

    Perhaps if we were more concerned that those who would do us harm actually fear our retaliation, instead of worrying that they will respect us in the morning, we just might manage to survive the night.

  • HG

    http://www.genevaconventions.org/

    the following is taking from the site above under “Breif history

    Combatants who deliberately violate the rules about maintaining a clear separation between combatant and noncombatant groups — and thus endanger the civilian population — are no longer protected by the Geneva Convention

    Even when the language is clear lib judges think they can write law. This whole think stinks to high heaven of liberalism run amok.

  • http://www.freerepublicans.com/ FreeRepublicans.com

    Rob,

    The ruling came what, 9 months ago right? (correct me if I am wrong)

    So the President defied the ruling for 9 months, why did he stop there? Why not continue the status quo till his term was up and let the next president make changes if that’s what he wants to do?

    It made no sense to cave after holding out so long, the ultimate decision was the President’s, not the courts.

    Bush made that ultimate decision, so the fact that he was pushed into it is of little consequence that this point.

    Now we see that he didn’t have any plans or agreements in place with key individuals of his own party. Sounds to me like he jumped the gun again.

  • http://www.freerepublicans.com/ FreeRepublicans.com

    Bush asked for this to happen by declaring the detainees had the rights of POWs.

    He should have continued to denied their existance, and the existance of the secret prisons.

    He should have just left the status quo on prisoners in place, sure it wasn’t popular, but at least there was a chance that something useful could com from their capture.

    Bush miscalculated what would happen by granting them legal status, now he must deal with the Pandoras Box he himself opened.

  • http://www.freerepublicans.com/ FreeRepublicans.com

    Rob,

    Ok, I stand corrected.

    But the President and his supporters have been saying that the detainees do not deserve POW status for the better part of 4 years.

    Personally, I think the key component to having Prisoners of War is to have a Declaration of War.

    Since we do not have that Declaration, and since we are not fighting an Army in the first place, there are no POWs.

    POWs are only required to say their Name, Rank, and Serial Number. So basicly they will be worthless to us if we unilaterally give them POW status.

    We might as well just shoot them where we find them and not even worry about hauling them back.

    Regardless, the President didn’t not stand his ground, I don’t think there is any denying that.

  • http://sayanythingblog.com/ likwidshoe

    I’ll go with the Military thanks.

    Well that’s a change.

    gregdn – unthinkingly partisan.

  • http://www.freerepublicans.com/ FreeRepublicans.com

    Rob,

    Weren’t you the one who was bitching about too much executive authority a few months back during the whole NSA thing?

    Friday, January 13, 2006
    Why the NSA wiretap issue doesn’t worry me

    Because John Stossel, probably the most even-headed libertarian in the country isn’t worried about it.

  • Brian

    Rob,
    As far as I can tell, McCain and Co.are saying that the SCOTUS ruling is the proper one and is law of the land. It is up to the courts to rule on such cases and for the Congress to write laws that adhere to the Constitution, which includes our treaty commitments. SCOTUS has ruled that the detainees are to be afforded the protections of the Geneva Conventions and obviously meant as they had been interpreted to that point internationally and nationally. They did not rule that they needed clarification and if one government starts this then the GC becomes meaningless.
    Bush does not want to “clarify” GC he wants to cover his ass and those of his cronies.

  • gregdn

    Look at who’s lining up with McCain: Military men with combat and or legal experience in uniform vs. Bush and Cheney who have nothing similar.
    I’ll go with the Military thanks.

  • http://www.freerepublicans.com/ FreeRepublicans.com

    The Supreme Court has all the authority it needs to apply the Constitution, the laws passed by Congress and the laws set by international treaty which the U.S. has agreed to (Geneva Conventions) to any given situation involving Americans.

    Wow. Just Wow.

    You have just justified ALL Judicial Activism is one sentence. And quite efficiently as well.

    To say the Supreme Court has any jurisdiction over anyone not on U.S. soil is laughable.

    To say the Constitution applies to Americans no matter where he are at a given moment has no basis in reality.

    To say that the Supreme Court has the authority not only to overrule Congress, but to enforce the decisions of Congress goes even farther than the powers the Supreme Court granted itself in Marbury v. Madison.

    By design, the Supreme Court has no more or no less power than the other two branches. The fact that the Supreme Court grabbed the power to overrule Congress and was never granted that power has been lost in the educating process of modern Americans.

    I would like to hear from a lawyer, or scholar of some sort, to find out when the Supreme Court was granted or grabbed the power to dictate Rules of Engagement in a time of war, whether or not war had been declared.

  • brian

    AS most of the posters here support Bush’s policy, if one can call it that, and profess that enemy combatants do not have the protections afforded under Geneva, and that as the “detainees” are “enemy comabatants” then how do you deal with the many hundreds that have been released with no charges? Are they “enemy comabatants” susceptible to defacto torture until we decide that they are not? This is what the secret trials, etc. lead to. What then stops the government from deciding anyone, like you, may be such a combatant and torture them?
    You guys have this all wrong and the “us vs. them” disease has got you. Open your minds and fight for human rights for all so that yours may be protected. That’s what McCain, Powell, Warner and the rest are saying and what you do not hear.

  • HG

    You guys have this all wrong and the “us vs. them” disease has got you.

    Brian. The terrorist don’t grant our soldiers or even our civilians geneva convention rights. Wake up! This is us vs. them. They, the terrorists have defined these terms of engagement.
    They are no conventional army, they have no uniforms, they purposefully attempt to blend in with civilians puting civilians at risk, they have sworn our conversion or death. Do you honestly think we will be at war with a nation who
    follows the geneva conventions? It is not going to happen. We will continue to fight evil when it threatens our freedom and existence, and those evils will not follow geneva conventions. They prefer to decapitate journalists!

  • Dave

    Rob: Can I just say that’s the best title you’ve written? Nice work! (I’m being completely serious here.)

  • http://www.freerepublicans.com/ FreeRepublicans.com

    We cannot ignore the rulings of the Supreme Court. We just can’t. And, frankly, I wouldn’t want to live in an America where we could.

    I don’t think SCOTUS has the jurisdiction to tell the President what he can do with non-US citizens off American soil.

    I think the precident that SCOTUS has set by declaring itself Supreme Commander of American Forces around the world is an equally bad one.

    Having 9 judges declare the rules of engagement is even worse than a bunch of politicians trying to score points doing it.

  • HG

    Nice try Greg,

    I’ll go with the Military thanks.

    A handful of vets are not representative of the Military. Besides your a liberal, you’re suppose to detest the Military. We all know full well where the Military stands.

  • Use To Be A Republicant

    This man, and I use the term loosely, is a whacko. He would be the first to complain about treatment of POW’s by other countries. You boys better enjoy your super-fecta. (house,senate,presidency,supreme court) It’s about to end.
    Yes, the supreme court, a republicant court voted to make this crap you’re talking about illegal. I hope his wire tap is voted down also. It won’t be long before crimes will be of a political nature. “Your a registered Democrat, quilty as charged”.

    These Liberal Judges…That’s crap…The supreme court is a conserative court and they ruled this Bushy policy illegal. Wake up you whiney people. (I also use this term loosely)

  • HG

    AM,

    Would it bother you if the terrorists won? Would you convert to Islam in order to save yourself?

  • Bat One

    Pilgrim,

    John McCain has a long, and colorful, history of both blistering temper, and blithe, unprincipled expediency. He has been voted the most tempermental Senator a number of times, as I recall, and the joke going around several years ago was that McCain was the only person who screamed his own name during sex.

  • gregdn

    Free:

    I’m not wild about your suggestion that the President defy a Supreme Court ruling. That’s a dangerous precedent.

  • Bat One

    Congress couldn’t pass a law to do that.

    Actually, Congress could, in theory, pass any law they want, on any subject they chose. And if the President vetoes the legislation, the Congress can then over-ride the Presidential veto and the legislation becomes the law of the land anyway.

    And it remains just that, the law of the land, until the Court says differently.

  • http://sayanythingblog.com robport

    Bush asked for this to happen by declaring the detainees had the rights of POWs.

    Bush didn’t make that decision. The Supreme Court made it for him with the Hamdan vs. Rumsfeld decision, which stated that the President’s tribunals were not only un-Constitutional (which they were) but also contrary to the Geneva Conventions. By ruling that way they also ruled that the Geneva Conventions apply to terror detainees.

    The wrong ruling in my estimation, but now the President and everyone else is stuck with it.

  • http://sayanythingblog.com robport

    Free, the ruling came down in June…a little less than three months ago.

    The President has not defied the ruling at all since it came down. The case involved the first war on terror detainees to be run through the President’s tribunal system. The detainee’s lawyers challenged the tribunal system itself and won, since then there have been no more tribunals and the President has begin working with Congress to get their approval for a tribunal system as the Constitution requires.

    So your contention that the President has “defied” the Hamdan ruling at all just isn’t based in fact.

    The only part of this current matter that is addressed by Hamdan is the fact that the ruling states that the Geneva Conventions apply to war on terror detainees. Since that ruling was handed down all decisions by the President’s have been made in keeping with it.

    The “ultimate decision” was not the President’s to make. You are flat-out wrong here and clearly don’t know what you’re talking about.

  • http://sayanythingblog.com robport

    I don’t think SCOTUS has the jurisdiction to tell the President what he can do with non-US citizens off American soil.

    Yes, it does. The Supreme Court has all the authority it needs to apply the Constitution, the laws passed by Congress and the laws set by international treaty which the U.S. has agreed to (Geneva Conventions) to any given situation involving Americans.

    That you don’t want the high court to have that authority is neither here nor there.

  • http://sayanythingblog.com robport

    Then just effin ignore me from now on since all you can do is call people names.

    This subject has nothing to do with political science so WTF are you talking about?

    I’m not going to ignore you if you’re going to spout a bunch of non-sensical B.S. in the comments.

    You clearly have no idea what you’re talking about on this. Applying Geneva to war on terror detainees was not the President’s ultimate decision, as has now been made painfully clear to you. Further, the President cannot simply ignore Supreme Court rulings. He just can’t.

    I shouldn’t name call, but you are infuriatingly dense on this topic yet pretend like you know what you’re talking about.

  • http://sayanythingblog.com robport

    Brian, the issue at hand here as nothing to do with the detention itself but rather which interrogation tactics our CIA agents will be allowed to use and which they will not.

    McCain, etc. would like to see those tactics defined by secret Department of Justice memos. Bush would like to see them defined openly by Congressional statute.

    So as you complain about secrecy, etc. consider the facts of this particular issue and ask yourself who the real knee-jerk “us vs. them” partisan is.

  • http://sayanythingblog.com robport

    If I am a clown, your a simpleton. Congress couldn’t pass a law to do that.

    And why can’t they pass statute (a Congressional amendment is another matter) to do that? BECAUSE THE SUPREME COURT WOULD STRIKE DOWN THEIR LAW!!!!!

    The Supreme Court’s ability to strike down Congressional statute as unconstitutional is a check on Congressional power.

    Honestly, what did they teach you in those political science classes you allegedly took?

    Didn’t the Supreme Court force the President to change his policy on how our forces operate? Whether the matter before the court was the rules of engagement, the end effect is the same – the rules have been changed and the Court initiated the change.

    In Hamdan the Court ruled that the President could not establish military tribunals without the authority of Congress. And on that point they are 100% correct. Congress writes the rules for the military and is charge of establishing all federal courts. Congress did not institute policy in place of the President’s, they simply said that what the President wanted to do was unconstitutional.

    Where they went too far is saying that the President’s tribunals were not only unconstitutional but also contrary to Geneva’s article III.

    Honestly, how on earth can I debate this with someone who has such a feeble grasp of the subject matter?

  • http://sayanythingblog.com robport

    Wow. Just Wow.

    You have just justified ALL Judicial Activism is one sentence. And quite efficiently as well.

    Judicial activism is when judges fail to apply the laws as written. I fail to see where simply ignoring Supreme Court rulings is a cure for judicial activism.

    To say the Supreme Court has any jurisdiction over anyone not on U.S. soil is laughable.

    The Supreme Court most certainly has jurisdiction to decide points of law with regard to detainees in the custody of U.S. forces.

    To say that the Supreme Court has the authority not only to overrule Congress, but to enforce the decisions of Congress goes even farther than the powers the Supreme Court granted itself in Marbury v. Madison.

    So you’re saying that if Congress passed a law removing the President’s power to veto the Supreme Court could not overrule it as unconstitutional?

    You’re a clown.

    By design, the Supreme Court has no more or no less power than the other two branches. The fact that the Supreme Court grabbed the power to overrule Congress and was never granted that power has been lost in the educating process of modern Americans.

    The three branches of government have different powers. Congress writes laws. The President executes those laws and is commander-in-chief of the military. The Supreme Court applies the law and the Constitution to disputes. You seem to be saying that the Supreme Court’s ability to rule on points of law can be ignored by the President and/or Congress simply if they want to.

    The branches of government are either equal in the respect areas of power or they are not. You cannot ignore the Supreme Court just because you want to.

    I would like to hear from a lawyer, or scholar of some sort, to find out when the Supreme Court was granted or grabbed the power to dictate Rules of Engagement in a time of war, whether or not war had been declared.

    We’re not talking about rules of engagement, you dipshit. We’re talking about how a treaty the U.S. government entered into applies to how we treat detainees in the war on terror.

  • http://sayanythingblog.com robport

    Well, for the record, we’re not really talking about the military on this issue. We’re talking about the CIA, which is not a part of our armed forces.

    But still, whether we’re talking about the military or our intelligence agencies, you’d think our soldiers/agents would appreciate a clear definition of what is and is not allowed when it comes to interrogation.

  • http://sayanythingblog.com robport

    Ok, I stand corrected.

    But the President and his supporters have been saying that the detainees do not deserve POW status for the better part of 4 years.

    What does that matter? The President and his supporters have been rebuked by the Supreme Court. I feel their ruling was wrong (insofar as it applied Article III to terror detainees), but now we’re stuck with it.

    If the President believed he was right to not give the detainees POW status, than what SCOTUS tells him should be of little consequence.

    Just because SCOTUS wants to force us to fight this war with gloves on, doesn’t mean we have to.

    We cannot ignore the rulings of the Supreme Court. We just can’t. And, frankly, I wouldn’t want to live in an America where we could.

  • http://sayanythingblog.com robport

    Greg, I believe Lik was referring to you being an anti-Bush partisan as opposed to a party-line partisan.

  • http://sayanythingblog.com robport

    The Supreme Court overturning legislation is not judicial activism. But when the Supreme Court alters how legislation is enforced instead of telling the Congress to try again, it sure as hell is judicial activism.

    Which is why Hamdan is not judicial activism. They told the President to try again by telling him that any tribunal plan must have the approval of Congress. Which indeed it must as per the Constitution.

    Again, you just don’t know what you’re talking about.

  • http://sayanythingblog.com robport

    Free, so now you’re saying that the President can disregard Supreme Court rulings?

    Weren’t you the one who was bitching about too much executive authority a few months back during the whole NSA thing?

  • http://sayanythingblog.com robport

    How does Bush cover his ass by asking for a clear definition from Congress of what does and does not violate Geneva’s Article III?

    If you were a CIA interrogator would you not want a specific list of what you were and were not allowed to do to get information?

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