From The Left: The Surprising Results Of Health Insurance Exchanges

Medical-Stock

I have been a fan of health care reform for over 25 years. I remember arguing in the early 90’s that if the Clinton administration did not do something about Health Care costs, health care would approach 15% of the GDP. Well, as it turns out, Republicans got their way, and nothing was done until 2010. By the time the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act passed a little over three years ago, health care costs were almost 18% of the GDP. Projections at that time showed that health care would consume over 20% of the GDP within 10 years and 25% within 15 years.

I have never thought that the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act was a perfect law. However, it remains significantly better than the previous health insurance system, and far better than any Republican alternative. (Full disclosure: The current “insurance mandate” was first proposed by 19 Senate Republicans in 1993 as an alternative to “Hilary Care”. So in short, Republicans were for the mandate before they were against it).

Since the PPCA was passed, it has not been the most popular law. However, many parts of the law are popular. Polls have shown that most Americans support the efforts to make buying insurance easier for people with pre-existing conditions, people support efforts to allow children to stay on their parents plan longer, and many states, including North Dakota, have chosen to allow Medicaid expansion as part of the law.

The biggest issue with the PPCA is that people have yet to believe that the cost curve is actually going to be controlled. Scare stories come out almost daily of employers who are going to have to let people go or cut their hours in order to be in compliance with the law. One of the most famous of these efforts was by the owners of Olive Garden and Red Lobster, who were forced to back off of their hour/job cutting threats after the public responded by eating elsewhere.

However, many have been shocked to learn that the costs of Health Care Exchanges in California are significantly below the cost projections. According to the The Washington Post:

“The Congressional Budget Office predicted back in November 2009 that a medium-cost plan on the health exchange – known as a “silver plan” – would have an annual premium of $5,200. A separate report from actuarial firm Milliman projected that, in California, the average silver plan would have a $450 monthly premium.

Now we have California’s rates, and they appear to be significantly less expensive than what forecasters expected.
On average, the most affordable “silver plan” – which covers 70 percent of the average subscriber’s medical costs – comes with a $276 monthly premium.”

There is a very simple reason for these lower costs. With millions of new customers, insurance agencies are now able to spread the cost of health insurance among more people, bringing down the costs for everybody. This is exactly what health care reform supporters have been saying would happen for years.

GameND

GameND is a Democrat who is living in the great state of North Dakota. He has been involved in Dem-NPL politics for years and credits his Republican high school history teacher for his love of debate.

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  • kevindf

    The slackers and stoners now have to pay for my health care. Thanks!

    • Brent

      No, they don’t, Kevin. They will get ‘more’ (in theory) and, especially the young, will pay lots more. But don’t worry, should they choose to buy it (which would be stupid – at least in 2014 – for most of them), the new grand buffet plans will be subsidized… by you, of course.

  • http://randysroundtable.blogspot.com/ Randy G

    Who is paying for the absurd cost of this mess that was originally touted at a cost of $900 billion that is now projected to cost $1.8 TRILLION and growing?

    • sbark

      …thus possibly the reason for the all of a sudden push for carbon taxation once again……..they see the handwriting on the wall of the Obamacare economic chaos……gotta find the money from some sources to cover their tracks.

      • http://flamemeister.com flamemeister

        Money won’t cover the chaos.

      • 7point62

        Two cogs in the same elitist oligarchy agenda wheel, huh.

    • ellinas1

      Why, you and I are.

      • two_amber_lamps

        I’m sure the chinese are appreciative of our business so far as all the loans/interest go. Once they see us for the deadbeat spendthrifts our politicians have made us they’ll turn off the spigot. But don’t worry… we’ll just keep printing $$ to cover the deficits. The spending shall continue, like an unrestrained pedophile in a grade school. Oh my… ellinas has something in common with the federal government beyond simple love of socialist policy!

        • ellinas1

          Doxy, The solution is simple: Pay upfront, with our money, for that which our society demands.
          If it takes raising taxes, so be it.
          The Chinese should turn off the spigot.

          • two_amber_lamps

            I don’t understand Greekling pederast… why if you like such a socialized tax & spend philosophy did you not stay in your native greekling-land? It’s a perfect society as you’ve reiterated time and again. You would be much happier there… and the parents in Stockton would certainly feel much safer sending their children to school knowing you weren’t prowling our streets in your sado-mobile.

          • ellinas1

            Doxy, The solution is simple: Pay upfront, with our money, for that which our society demands.
            If it takes raising taxes, so be it.
            The Chinese should turn off the spigot.

          • two_amber_lamps

            Yes pederast, Leftists always have the “simple solution…” simple-minded that is. So you didn’t answer, why do you wish to import the fail policies of your precious Greek-land? If utopia is Greece, why do you seek to destroy a constitutional republic and replace it with a socialist mob-ocracy?

          • ellinas1

            Yes pederast, Right wing nuts always have the “simple solution…” simple-minded that is.
            The rest of your post is meaningless. I advocated no such thing.
            You thought of something meaningless, you thought you had a gem of a question and asked a very stupid thing.

            Admit it, you’re some Dem plant to make right wingers look stupid.

          • two_amber_lamps

            Oh look, the pederast CAN write something beyond copycat cut-and-paste!

            Isn’t that swell!

            Now how about letting that 10 year old concubine you keep chained in your basement go, and turn yourself in to the proper authorities? Then perhaps you can get the help you need, though it’s doubtful. Studies show pedophiles are notoriously hard to rehabilitate.

          • ellinas1

            Oh look, the doxy cannot write something beyond her IQ of 61.
            That is terrible.
            Now free that 5 year old concubine you keep chained in
            you mothers house, and commit suicide There is no other way. Studies
            show pedophiles are notoriously hard to rehabilitate.

          • Eurekacon

            Greece? How do you equate U.S. spending and healthcare reform with the Greece bailout? Greece had some 90% or more of the world’s credit default swaps – it is a country that had a more underdeveloped economy that was brought into the European Union and was promised economic stability. What happened? Investors rushed in with this assurance and created a massive bubble that popped. The U.S.? We have the world’s reserve currency and are not trying to keep afloat any economic bloc built around uneven economies with restrictive currency volume. Please explain to me how U.S. spending will lead to a Greecesque economic crisis? (or Ireland, Portugal, Spain, etc for that matter…) The ignorance with this Greece-U.S. correlation is mind-boggling…

          • two_amber_lamps

            Hello Neo-con. So our hedge against financial destruction is the fact that the US dollar is currently the world’s reserve currency? Lol… you ARE a deluded one!

            Do you still think the US dollar will be the world’s reserve currency when it’s worth nothing?

            The only thing propping up the value of the dollar is…. hope. When that hope evaporates and other nations realize that the dollar isn’t worth the paper it’s printed on, what do you think will happen?

            The house of cards will come a’ tumblin’ down.

            Oh, but that can’t happen to us!! Thank you for being a textbook example of normalacy bias.

          • ellinas1

            Please forgive Amber, as her IQ is very low. Last time I checked it was 61. It has not moved at all in the last 5 years.

      • http://randysroundtable.blogspot.com/ Randy G

        I know I will be E, but do you pay taxes? Most liberals don’t.

        • ellinas1

          I pay taxes, and most US citizens pay taxes political affiliation not withstanding.

          • 7point62

            Taxes to the elitist communist oligarchy and their one world agendas, E.
            Since 1913 anyway..

          • ellinas1

            Hell, I don’t know.

            I don’t follow stupid conspiracy theories.

          • 7point62

            Well it isn’t a theory…
            It is fact that revisionist history ignores.
            The Federal Reserve System was and is owned by European old Illuminati money and they have since gotten control of the whole of the central planning DC soviet systems….Just plain old fashioned “truth” taken as conspiracy…..
            If “truth” is stupid to ya?
            Am I to blame…..

          • ellinas1

            Well the system is rigged against the poor and working people, but your brethren want to screw the poor and working….day in and day out conservatives verbally and financially assault the poor and working.
            Yet you made your choice……stop bitching.

          • 7point62

            My Brethren are in heaven E…

            I quit trying to apologize for both the GOP
            and Democrats in DC long ago.
            They are owned assets of internationalist power
            players one and all.

          • ellinas1

            say conservatives, you respond with “GOP”.

            They are not the same.

            You defend them day in and day out

          • 7point62

            Well there isn’t much for old skool Constitutionalists left
            in our soviet central planning governmental system now, is there.

          • ellinas1

            I have no idea.

          • 7point62

            That is exactly what I have been trying to tell you..
            the few Tea party constitutionalists in DC are marginalized by the hate propaganda for the DNC/GOP good old boys and girls to run the central planning soviet status quo.

          • ellinas1

            Well, what can I say.
            Some are outright nuts.

          • 7point62

            Yes sir…
            All those DNC/GOP’s who serve the
            elitist international oligarchy, sure are.

          • ellinas1

            I have to disagree with you.
            All those are self serving bastards.

          • 7point62

            The lesser of three evils?
            I will go with the Tea Party Constitutionalist
            “base of working class taxpayers”
            who are sick of ALL the unconstitutional B/$…..

          • 7point62

            And once again cranky old one….
            I am not bitchin….
            You do that well enough for both of us, huh…..

          • ellinas1

            Someone has to do the heavy lifting.
            You being 123 years old….you can’t even lift your penis to piss straight. ;-)

  • R David Adams

    AFTER SPENDING SEVERAL MINUTES LAUGHING! at that expression of Obama care, written with eyes mostly closed and looking only at a very left leaning California. I wonder n what planet you might be living, or at least on which continent. The very idea that people like the ACA is duen in part, to the ability to get insurance with preexisting conditions, is the very reason the ACA will fail. That item coupled with the fine if you dont have ACA approved insurance will drive to its destruction. A healthy young person will pay the much smaller fine than the already increasing costs of the insurance mandate, and just wait till they get sick to buy insurance. This is a typical failure of most people to understand how insurance works. Insurance was designed to pool peoples money in a group to spread the risk over a larger population base to lower costs for all. You did not need to buy into this. If you chose to, you became part of the pool. The cost of this insurance was based on rates of sickness and need of medical attention. Now you have to figure in all the people who are not even in the pool, as you know they can now join at anytime and not have any ownership in the form of regular contributions to the pool when they were not sick. That drives the cost up, It cannot be ignored, it cannot be legislatively controlled as it is a fact of business.

    • http://flamemeister.com flamemeister

      And 30,000,000 will still remain uninsured.

      • ellinas1

        Well sir, do something and insure them.

        • http://flamemeister.com flamemeister

          I just did. I waved my hand and Poof! I got the same result Obama did using his method.
          Another solution, more to Liberal taste: Readjust the criteria for the Death Panels.

          • ellinas1

            Oh, that’s what that sound was.
            Damn! that was a loud poof. I heard it all the way in California.
            Good job, Now if we can get you to wave your hand and readjust the criteria for the Death Panels.

          • http://flamemeister.com flamemeister

            Gesagt! Getan!

          • 7point62

            No sooner said than done.

          • ellinas1

            Heh! heh!

          • 7point62

            But your had wave didn’t cost me a cent.
            big difference, huh.

          • ellinas1

            Money? Is that what you are worried about?
            You can’t serve both money and God.

          • 7point62

            Don’t pull a muscle stretching “that” far… :)

          • ellinas1

            Relax and do not worry. I assure you my muscles very limber*.

            *Limber for my age group.

          • 7point62

            Yes you have proven that many times as your
            “reach from the left”
            all the way over to the right,
            at things that are not even really there. :-)

          • ellinas1

            But I am limber. I do stretches everyday.
            From the left all the way to the right. ;-)

          • 7point62

            And how low can ya go? :-)

          • ellinas1

            All the way to my toes with the knees extended.

          • 7point62

            A$$ume the position….
            and smile for the camera…… :-)

          • ellinas1

            Position assumed.

          • 7point62

            :-)
            NSA will keep that one on file for sure….

          • ellinas1

            It wont be a nice picture.

          • http://flamemeister.com flamemeister

            I always come in under budget.

          • 7point62

            Catch phrases that make “corporates” pee themselves…

            A win win…
            On time
            and under budget….

            You just made some crony capitalist socialist corporate
            elitist oligarch execs wet…

        • LenYol

          Maybe obama should create jobs for them, as he promised when first elected. You know, those shovel ready jobs that all that stimulus $$$ was supposed to do.

          • ellinas1

            Another lying American politician.
            What’s new?

          • LenYol

            A more accurate statement would be: A lying anti American politician.

          • ellinas1

            A more accurate statement would be: A lying American politician whom you hate with a passion and vehemently disagree with his policies.

          • LenYol

            You just can’t get anything right. Since I don’t know him on a personal level, a more accurate statement would be, a lying anti American politician whose policies I vehemently disagree with, with a passion.

          • ellinas1

            Nah! I don’t believe that for a moment. You hate this man, our president.
            .You hate him because you think he is a lying antiamerican, who’s policies you vehemently disagree with, with a passion.

          • LenYol

            I’m not surprised that what you believe, or want to believe, is wrong. Let me correct you again.
            Amore accurate statement would be,he’s a lying anti American politician whose policies I vehemently disagree with, with a passion.

          • ellinas1

            A more accurate statement would be, you hate this man,
            You hate him with a passion.

          • LenYol

            You’ve turned into a bigger attention whore than your buddy the documented liar and tax cheat.
            You can believe what you want. You enjoy being wrong, it’s typical of your kind.

          • ellinas1

            You know nothing but unwarranted invective, vehement and/or violent denunciation,censure, reproach, contumely, and dare I say some racism.Your insulting display of contempt in words or actions, your contemptuous or humiliating treatment of other ethnic/racial groups shows an inferiority complex found in those who are intolerant WASP’s.

          • LenYol

            Again you prove that you can never get anything right as evidenced by the fact that I’m a Jew, and everyone knows how you despise Israel and the JEWS, and that is evidenced by the fact that you voted for obama, twice.

          • ellinas1

            Good morning LenYol.

          • LenYol

            Shouldn’t you be asking: Why does obama hate America? The answer is
            simple, even a dope like you could answer it, and you might even get it
            right.

          • ellinas1

            Does the chromatic aberration effect of the objective lenses or chromatic
            dispersion of materials have any impact on the size of the
            micro/nano-metric structures (especially holes), fabricated inside
            transparent materials?

          • LenYol

            Why would it?

            But thanks for demonstrating that like all on the left, when confronted with having to answer a question that would actually reveal the truth about something, you either change the subject or runaway. I, for one, prefer that you run away.

            Shouldn’t you be answering the question: Why does obama hate America? The answer is simple, even a dope like you could answer it, and you might even get it right.

          • ellinas1

            LenYol.Can you please help me with this:
            I currently have a problem whereby I need to combine the magnitude and
            direction of a vector (in my case a length in mm, and angle in degrees,
            although can be converted to radians) into one single figure, that will
            not repeat itself for all lengths up to 5 mm within 360 degrees. This is
            for use in Statistical analysis using correlation coefficients to test
            against one of my output variables.

          • LenYol

            Sorry, lefty, can’t help you that. Good try at deflection. it just proves my point, again.

          • ellinas1

            I do not share your geopolitical views.
            Since you think that Obama hates America, it is incumbent on you to prove your position,
            If you are successful in your assertion, or successfully prove your position I will have to agree,
            Until then, there is no reliable way to answer your useless questions.

          • LenYol

            The answer is obvious. It’s what he taught, it’s how he was raised, it’s all he knows. Mentored by racist’s, communists, anti semetic domestic radicals, radical Muslims, haters of America and the American way.
            You know who they are. His mother, Frank Marshall, Farakhan, Rev. Wright and the list goes on. All haters of America.

          • ellinas1

            Mere assertions and assumptions.
            Right wing unproven rhetoric.
            You have not made your case as to why those people and specifically Obama are haters of America,
            Does one have to be pro semetic to love America?
            Must one approve of everything America does to love America?
            In the big picture, which you are missing, his mother, Frank Marshall, Farakhan, Rev. Wright and the rest of the list are insignificant, as you depend on pseudo conspiracies and pseudo conspirators such as Corsi,

          • LenYol

            Bill Ayers, domestic terrorist, Rev. Wright “God damn American” Farakhan, nothing needs to be said about that self confessed hater of whites, Jews and America, Frank Marshall a know communist, his mother, in the least a communist sympathizer. His embedding the Muslim Brotherhood within the U.S. government, haters of America and the Jews.You may keep telling yourself that these people are insignificant, but they are as significant as those who taught, influenced and guided you.
            What is insignificant to me is whether or not you acknowledge that obama knows no other way, but it is all he knows.
            Do you think obama sat in Rev. Wright’s church for 20 years listening to him drool hate about America because he disagreed with it?

  • sbark

    So that’s why ObamaCare attempted to recruit the NFL, NBA etc ………because its such a “great deal”……….the NFL said nope…but they will be threatened of course.
    .So that is why a chief architect of ObamaCare Dem’cat Max Baucus of Mont…..called it a train wreck coming at us ……..and announced his retirement.
    ***

    A Gallup poll taken in June found that nearly one in five small businesses—19 percent of those surveyed—have cut workers “as a specific result of the Affordable Care Act.” The same poll, first reported by CNBC, found that 41 percent of those interviewed had suspended hiring because of Obamacare. The poll of 603 business owners with less than $20 million in annual sales also found that 55 percent believe Obamacare will lead to higher health care costs, while just 5 percent saw future cost savings.
    The Main reason you were so able to predict rising health care costs…is because the govt was already involved in it………via medicare……it was an easy prediction, and now as always a Leftists wants to fix what govt broke……..with more govt….what is the definition of doing the same thing over and over –but expecting diff results? This is a Liberal program, there is no reason that it will break the running track record of 100% failure in anything Liberalism endorses.

  • http://flamemeister.com flamemeister

    Dang! Rob found a stand-in acid-head blogger. Not so easy to find these days. No point in even arguing. Just wait until full implementation. I like my Schadenfreude served cold and bitter.

    • GameND

      Yep, if you cannot dispute the facts, attack the messenger.

      • http://flamemeister.com flamemeister

        You have no message. Just a re-arranged gleaning of one-sided Democrap talking points and irrelevant cases that have been out there for months.

  • http://flamemeister.com flamemeister

    Just taking this posting as a sample, I would say that GameND is about as ignorant of the problems with Obamacare as you can get. Boycott. Yeah, big whup. About 35% favor Obamacare in polls. Yes, there are people who support parts of Obamacare because those parts SOUND GOOD! Jeez!

    • 7point62

      Game is a no apologies indoctrinated apologist, for sure….

  • schreib

    What are you smoking????????????

    • ellinas1

      Reefer of course! Why must you ask this?

      Are you the smoking police?

      • two_amber_lamps

        Q. “What are you smoking????????????”

        A. (ellinas) “Reefer of course! Why must you ask this?”

        Ellinas, the pot smoking, golden-shower and animal fixated, homosexual pederast!

        • ellinas1

          Q. “What are you smoking????????????”

          A. (ellinas) “Reefer of course! Why must you ask this?”

          two_amber_lights, the pot smoking, golden-shower and animal fixated, homosexual pederast!

          • 7point62

            Yeah…
            What log in your own eye.

          • ellinas1

            It does not fit. Not my eye, nor it is my log.
            It is for my beloved Amber. She loves this kind of stuff.

          • two_amber_lamps

            Thanks for making my point pederast! BrahahahahAHAHAHAHAA!

          • 7point62

            Funny how the democrats took the logo, tho.. :)

          • ellinas1

            Thanks for making my point pederast! BrahahahahAHAHAHAHAA!

          • two_amber_lamps

            Golly Greekling… you sure are obsessed with pictures of c#$k! Thank you for making my point comrade gay pederast!

          • ellinas1

            Golly Amber… you sure are obsessed with pictures of c#$k! Thank you for making my point comrade gay pederast!

      • 7point62

        Liberal anti tobacco agenda has that taken care of all ready E…
        Where ya been?

        • ellinas1

          What? You don’t smoke reefer because you are afraid of the smoking police?

          As to where I have been, why in Stockton California of course.

          • 7point62

            E?
            Did the heat get ya today?
            :)
            (notice even my smile points right?)
            hee hee

          • ellinas1

            No. Not today due to the heat.
            Can’t smoke indoors. The reefer police, AKA Mrs, forbids it.
            See what sacrifices a man has to do to keep the peace in his house?

          • 7point62

            Yes sir…
            Tolerance should be a two way street.
            But the CEO of the house always has the veto power, huh….

          • ellinas1

            Not in this case……

          • 7point62

            PS..
            That is one ugly bird… :)

          • ellinas1

            My favorite ostrich smiling with human teeth.

          • 7point62

            A liberal with head in the sand? :-)

          • ellinas1

            No! You are seeing things again.
            It is a head of an smiling ostrich, albeit it has human teeth.
            Whatsyou been smoking?

          • 7point62

            Not smoking anything E.
            just that an ostrich is known for just putting its head in the sand when danger approaches….
            Just like the indoctrinated liberals. :-)

          • two_amber_lamps

            You’ve taken to calling your 10 year old boy/concubine “The Mrs.?”

            How…. sick.

            Brahahahahahaaa!

          • ellinas1

            You’ve taken to calling your 10 year old boy/concubine “The Mrs.?”

            How…. sick.

            Brahahahahahaaa!

          • two_amber_lamps

            Copycat Greekling… ellinas like school in summertime… no class!!

            Yuck yuck yuck!

          • ellinas1

            Copycat Amber… doxy, like school in summertime… no class!!

            Yuck yuck yuck!

  • schreib

    All this legislative mess and now we have even MORE people uninsured and MORE people unemployed or underemployed. DUH And congress wants no part of it. We have to pay for what we don’t need and we lose almost all of our freedom and privacy and freedom of religion and conscience.

  • schreib

    People will pay the fines. They are cheaper than the crappy exchanges

    • petrakeena

      Yep they sure are…and the people that fall below income tax thresholds won’t owe anything. Neither will the unemployed or people who cannot find a policy that costs less than 8% of their modified adjusted gross income. Leaving the bulk of the cost of Obamacare to the people that have been paying for insurance all along.

      • schreib

        And that is why it won’t work. They could tax us all at 100 percent and there still will not be enough money for this POS bill

        • GameND

          What “bill”? Nobody is talking about a “bill”.

  • 7point62

    When the socialists in Europe went “central planning” with the new currency the Euro?
    They also went to European wide health care supplies and products vendors of governmental choice owned by the same folks who brought them the Euro. Go figure……….
    Soros OSI hedge funds backed both and made a bundle….
    Ya think that might be in play here now in America?

    • ellinas1

      I blame Bush! Bush did it.

      • 7point62

        And Barry, like Nelson Mandela,
        is a third world communist social justice front man.

        http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1255245/posts

        Mandela with SACP boss, Joe Slovo

        “Nelson Mandela is a symbol, an icon, one of the world’s most famous statesmen, recognised and revered by all. He dines with royalty, associates with the world’s great leaders and his opinion is sought and valued on all weighty matters. He has achieved an almost divine status in the world, equal to that of the Pope or the late Princess Diana.”

        Many of his apologists optimistically claim that Mandela may well have had “communist leanings” in his past, but that he has since put all that behind him and become a moderate in his political beliefs. They are perhaps unaware of his fulsome praise of a communist dictatorship as late as 1991 when he and Winnie went to what they called their “second home” – Cuba – to celebrate the communist revolution with Fidel Castro. In his speech Mandela said:

        “Long live the Cuban Revolution. Long live comrade Fidel Castro… Cuban internationalists have done so much for African independence, freedom, and justice. We admire the sacrifices of the Cuban people in maintaining their independence and sovereignty in the face of a vicious imperialist campaign designed to destroy the advances of the Cuban revolution. We too want to control our destiny… There can be no surrender. It is a case of freedom or death. The Cuban revolution has been a source of inspiration to all freedom-loving people.”

        Mandela’s adulation of Castro and Cuba almost outshines that of his own admirers. In May of 1990 Mandela, visiting America, went on record, referring to Cuba:

        There’s one thing where that country stands out head and shoulders above the rest. That is in its love for human rights and liberty.

        A week later in Libya, he lauded Qaddafi’s:

        Committment to the fight for peace and human rights in the world.Mandela with SACP boss, Joe Slovo

        “Nelson Mandela is a symbol, an icon, one of the world’s most famous statesmen, recognised and revered by all. He dines with royalty, associates with the world’s great leaders and his opinion is sought and valued on all weighty matters. He has achieved an almost divine status in the world, equal to that of the Pope or the late Princess Diana.”

        Most people on the left of the political spectrum would agree wholeheartedly with the above quote. But they run into an unexpected problem when someone asks “why is he considered such a great statesman?”

        The problem is that Mandela, apart from having a likeable personality, has achieved next to nothing in his relatively short political career which saw South Africa rapidly decline to the status of the world’s most violent and crime-ridden country, and, to add to the confusion, his greatest friends are communists and dictators like Fidel Castro, Moammar Qaddafi, Yasser Arafat and Saddam Hussein. His ex-wife Winnie Mandela, whom he quickly jettisoned when it became clear she was a considerable embarassment to his political career, is a self-confessed advocate of terrorism and violence and has even committed murder.

        In his public statements and speeches Mandela is always critical of the democratic countries of the west, but has nothing but praise for the remaining communist dictatorships of the world. He condemns mistakes and controversial policies of the west, but refuses to publicly condemn the genocides and brutal repression of current or former communist countries; he is supposedly a “champion of freedom and democracy”, the “hero of oppressed people everywhere” but considers dictatorships like Cuba and Libya shining beacons of freedom and justice…

        Perhaps this is what makes Mandela such a revered statesman – chameleon-like he can advocate democracy and freedom as the highest ideals one day and hold up Cuba or Libya as shining examples for the world to follow the next day. And his admirers do not even notice the contradiction, or worse, they agree with him…

        Many of his apologists optimistically claim that Mandela may well have had “communist leanings” in his past, but that he has since put all that behind him and become a moderate in his political beliefs. They are perhaps unaware of his fulsome praise of a communist dictatorship as late as 1991 when he and Winnie went to what they called their “second home” – Cuba – to celebrate the communist revolution with Fidel Castro. In his speech Mandela said:

        “Long live the Cuban Revolution. Long live comrade Fidel Castro… Cuban internationalists have done so much for African independence, freedom, and justice. We admire the sacrifices of the Cuban people in maintaining their independence and sovereignty in the face of a vicious imperialist campaign designed to destroy the advances of the Cuban revolution. We too want to control our destiny… There can be no surrender. It is a case of freedom or death. The Cuban revolution has been a source of inspiration to all freedom-loving people.”

        Mandela’s adulation of Castro and Cuba almost outshines that of his own admirers. In May of 1990 Mandela, visiting America, went on record, referring to Cuba:

        There’s one thing where that country stands out head and shoulders above the rest. That is in its love for human rights and liberty.

        A week later in Libya, he lauded Qaddafi’s:

        Committment to the fight for peace and human rights in the world.

        • ellinas1

          Mandela fought to free his people from those that enslaved them.
          I have been to South Africa many times, the first time being 1965.
          Last time I went was 1981.
          It was nothing nice.

          Mandela honored those that helped him in his quest.
          You may disagree with his political choices, you may say he achieved nothing, but the whole world admires the man.
          Long live Mandela.

          • 7point62

            Or do you mean?
            Long live communist ideologies
            under the social justice front…….
            Yeah…
            Barry is your boy.

          • ellinas1

            I do not mean that at all.
            I mean he fought to free the blacks from the whites.
            Political beliefs aside, that is a noble cause.

          • 7point62

            But with the stealth communist third world social justice ideology
            that is controlled by global world elitist olagarchy.
            The Truth,
            the “whole Truth”,
            and nothing but the Truth,
            so help you God?

          • ellinas1

            Well, since no Conservative Capitalist Christian took the initiative to free them, he did it.
            That’s the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth so help me God!

          • 7point62

            (That’s the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the (IDEOLOGICAL) truth so help me God!)
            There E…
            I fixed that for ya… :-)

          • ellinas1

            Well let me correct you.
            The Calvinists of South Africa believed/believe in white supremacy.
            And that is not ideological.
            Can you point to any conservative capitalist Christian that took the initiative to free them?

          • 7point62

            Let me see here now….
            YUP…
            Clavinism (like greek orthodoxy)
            is a form of “religion”…..
            The Personal relationship with the Living Jesus
            is still the Biblical Truth…
            Yup…
            some facts just don’t
            CHANGE AND MOVE IDEOLOGICALY FORWARD
            comrade E…

          • ellinas1

            Can you point to any conservative capitalist Christian that took the initiative to free them?

          • 7point62

            This is your pre determined outcome manufactured narrative and
            strawman E…You want me to play when you rigged the game?
            As always….it is your dog in the hunt..
            you run him where ya think ya need to, not me.

          • ellinas1

            No. It is not my predetermined outcome manufactured narrative and
            straw man 7.62…You do not have any names of any conservative capitalist Christian that took the initiative to free the black populace of South Africa.
            Therefore, you avoid the question like it is black plague.
            Shame on you.

          • 7point62

            I believe freeing slaves from tyrants is a noble cause
            no matter what the skin color ideological blindness is…
            just a truism to nuance your liberal blindness and pre determined
            indoctrinated position with, huh.

          • ellinas1

            What? You cannot you point to any conservative capitalist Christian that took the initiative to free them?
            The shame………….

          • 7point62

            No collective shame here E….
            I have enough of my own guilt and failure
            under the Blood and I don’t need to add your straw man arguments to my account..

          • ellinas1

            You still cannot you point to any conservative capitalist Christian that took the initiative to free them.
            Yet you can, with real ease and without blinking, blame the “communist” Mandela.
            I do get it….

          • 7point62

            Well I base my Mandela comments on some research I did when
            Barry boy had put Van Jones up for one of his communist Czar positions…
            He, Van jones had stated that he longed for the day when he and the other communist black folk in America could “come out” like their bros. and sisters in Africa….
            so I did the research on Al Goricals internet and found a whole bunch about African communists including Mandela…
            A very blood thirsty lot those communist brother and sisters in Africa who had “come out” as communists…
            I also found out they were all about “joining forces” with the Islamic agendas to destroy any American influence on the dark continent as well..
            between the TWO?
            Plenty of “social justice third world payback” goin on with Barry and Van Jones blessing and some involvement as well…
            go figure E…
            Without blinking?
            Several days worth of research after Barry put his 28? communist Czars in place in DC and invited the muslim brotherhood into “da house” as well…

          • ellinas1

            None of which came to fruition.
            Americas influence in the dark continent?
            Sheet! America fought tooth and nail against the freedom of the dark continent.

          • 7point62

            and once again E…

            you are mis directing the “focus” of the conversation away from the communist ideologies Barry and Nelson espouse to your pre determined outcome strawman scape goat argument.

            You switch the straw man from the “collective conservative Christian” to the collective evil American Imperialist argument, while giving no quarter or acknowlegement of the global communist ideologies that are in play in both SA and the USA……

            You sly dog you..
            :-)

          • 7point62

            Marx and Alinsky’s use of lucifers ridicule and accusing of the Brethen.
            Ridicule of your conservative targets “again” E…

            I do get it as well…
            It is what you do all the time.

            Make the strawman a conservative,
            (even if the topic was Barry and Nelsons communist ideologies)
            and ridicule it to death, as you demand we defend it.
            Burn that straw man down ..

            time for the right to join in the fun? :-)

            By: Dennis M. Patrick
            Date: June 28, 2013

            LAUGH ‘EM DOWN
            There is a way to deal with liberal-progressive change agents who
            would force their aberrant views on society as if they were the only
            just and righteous race.
            Laugh at them. Laughter is the best medicine in more ways that one.
            Laughter is neither prohibited nor is it hate speech. It is only
            inappropriate in the eyes of the target.
            Demonization through ridicule of one’s opponent builds morale among
            friendly allies and maintains unity in the ranks. Ridicule portrays
            individuals, movements, philosophies and ideologies as the ridiculous
            pantomimes that they are.
            Ridicule typically uses humor along with satire to destroy an
            opponent. It is one thing to laugh with a person. It is quite another to
            laugh at them. To laugh at a person, movement or ideology is a kiss of
            death.
            Ridicule is most effective when it undermines the political and
            psychological strength of an adversary. It strips that adversary of
            their prestige. It belittles the opposition’s sense of justice and
            obliterates their sense of invincibility.
            Ridicule leverages the emotions while avoiding complicated
            explanations. Ridicule tears down faster that the opposition can build up.
            Let stinging barbs drip with contempt and humiliation. Mocking an
            idea, group or movement can leave them ineffective. Making fun of
            cherished beliefs will certainly weaken them.
            During the Vietnam years the military that is now so revered was
            held up to ridicule with devastating effect. Christianity in America is
            still routinely ridiculed as it retreats to the closet.
            Authortarians cannot tolerate a good laugh at their expense. The
            thickness of their skin is inversely proportional to the size of their
            egos. Ridicule weakens tyrants, nullifies governments and destroys
            politicians. As George Orwell pointed out, “Every joke is a tiny
            revolution.” It corrodes and undermines everything. During World War II
            anti-Nazi and anti-Japanese propaganda included ridicule through parody
            by The Three Stooges.
            Fidel Castro, soon after seizing power in Cuba, is said to have
            forbidden any form of counter-revolutionary jokes and humor much less
            ridicule.
            The former USSR, through its KGB, censored all spoken and written
            humor that ridiculed the government.
            Satirizing Obama’s administration, the EPA, IRS, DOJ, HHS, DHS
            would make them appear ridiculous which, of course by their recent
            conduct, they are. It lowers them further in the eyes of the public.
            Laugh at the left. Let the EPA and their environmental synchophants
            feel the barbs of mockery. Keep the jokes flowing.
            Ridicule the IRS making them the butt of jokes, cartoons and satire.
            Let the Department of Justice, too, be regarded as a laughing stock.
            Make the New Black Panthers and their voter intimidation a laughing
            stock. After all, they are. Make fun of and laugh at the race card
            whenever it is played and it will soon carry no effect.
            The Left has used ridicule for years. The Left destroyed Sarah
            Palin through ridicule. “Saturday Night Live,” Bill Maher and Stephen
            Colbert routinely engage in ridicule of traditional values and beliefs.
            Now it is the Right’s turn. Why shouldn’t “Red Eye” with Greg Gutfeld,
            Fox’s “The Five” James O’Keefe’s ACORN/pimp gig and Rush Limbaugh’s
            parodies join the fray to good effect?
            “Ridicule is man’s most potent weapon” says Saul Alinsky in his
            “Rules for Radicals” Rule Number 5. “…you do what you can with what
            you have and clothe it with moral arguments.”
            Let’s use it.”

          • ellinas1

            All that, and you still cannot you point to any conservative capitalist Christian that took the initiative to free them.
            Yet you can, with real ease and without blinking, blame the “communist” Mandela.

            I am not trying to ridicule you, and I am not laughing at you.
            I am trying to have a serious conversation with you.

          • 7point62

            A earthly/worldly pre determined outcome conversation
            that only you can win with your ideological point of view.
            Man made ideologies/understandings have little to nothing to do with
            Scriptural Spiritual Truth old greek one….

            communist ideologies are along with Islamic political ideologies
            (under the cloak of religion)
            are ruling the air and minds of the global community in these end times…

            Ya want to stay in this fallen realm and argue mute points about its destructrion and blame the conservative Christian and the evil imperialist American empire
            (run by those same communist global olagarchs)
            that is fine with me…
            But I am not playing that game…
            My Home and Heart art in Heaven…

          • ellinas1

            If your home and heart is in heaven why then you involve your self in these earthly issues?

          • 7point62

            To give the “call” of the signs of the times to anyone willing to Hear, E.
            The days are getting short…
            and the DAY soon approaches….
            These earthly matters are but signs of the Approaching Day….

          • ellinas1

            But that is scriptural/spiritual.
            Here you are dealing with petty earthly secular issues.

          • 7point62

            Specs and logs…
            Specs and logs…
            sometimes that “spec” feels just like a log…
            sometimes it don’t….

          • HML

            The news reports I’ve read says the SAs are worse off since Madella’s rise…shrug..

          • 7point62

            That is what happens when a “front man” (Barry/Mandela) gets promoted
            to lead a third world social justice ideological spin move for the ruling class elitist oligarchy in control….

          • 7point62

            The Arab Spring pro democracy movement has been used
            as the “cause” to usurp the political power for the muslim brotherhood in Egypt just as the communists have used “democracy” to usurp the political systems in SA and the USA…

            Quote:

            I am not sure when the people of Egypt became more worldly than the people here in America but it would seem they have it figured out. Betsy Hiel tweeted a picture of a banner that has been hoisted in Tahrir Square that reads “Obama Supports Terrorism” in both English and Arabic. The banner has been placed in preparation for Sunday’s scheduled protests against Mohamed Morsi and The Muslim Brotherhood.

            Read more:

            http://freedomoutpost.com/2013/06/the-egyptian-people-proclaim-barack-obama-supports-terrorists/#ixzz2XfFGlXHc

          • ellinas1

            Nah! The news reports I’ve read say they are free.
            Shrug all you want. Your favorite South African Calvinists racists of Dutch or Huguenot descent who practiced of indenturing the native Khoisan population, are not in power any more.

          • 7point62

            They should have a gay greek heritage?
            would that make it better?

          • ellinas1

            Sorry, their heritage cannot be exchanged for gay greek heritage.
            Not my fault that white South African Calvinists racists of Dutch or Huguenot descent practiced of indenturing the native Khoisan population and until recently enslaved a whole bunch of people.

            PS: What are you upset about? The truth?
            Should we sweep it under the rug and holler Hallelujah Jesus?

          • 7point62

            It is not my fault the greeks were into some kinky stuff either…
            My Norsk ancestors were some ale drinking villiage pillaging,
            woman rapin, fairy tail little g god worshipers as a matter of fact….

            But I don’t feel that I have any of their collective guilt on my hands either.
            And especially not those greedy capitalist Christians who wouldn’t help old commies Nelson and Barry do their dirty deeds either…
            but that is just me old greek one.
            you can assign all the false guilt to what ever group ya want to and it doesn’t bother me any..
            Miss read me “again” E..
            I am not upset about anything. :-)

          • ellinas1

            Never blamed you for anything concerning the Greeks.

            What? You cannot you point to any conservative capitalist Christian that took the initiative to free them?
            The shame………….

          • 7point62

            But E…
            ya double minded man…
            Isn’t it the liberal mindset to keep the Christian right out of politics?
            We have no place for our faith in your
            Communist New World Order….
            We have been banished from the political areana since way back in aprox. 1962, huh.

          • ellinas1

            A Christian is neither right nor left.
            Neither liberal nor conservative.
            Not a democrat nor a republican,
            A Christian is one of Christ’s followers.

          • 7point62

            Then why do you reject the Word of Truth
            when it doesn’t fit your liberal political ideologies? :-(

          • ellinas1

            I don’t reject THE WORD OF TRUTH.
            What I reject, are the so called “truths” espoused by Neiman.
            As I have said a myriad of times, that sort of Christianity is not for me.

          • Neiman

            That is your free will choice to reject Salvation by grace alone (free gift), by faith alone, in Christ Jesus alone and the blessed assurance of our eternal life in Christ being absolutely secure. Your works salvation will avail no one anything.

          • Clairvoyant

            Your rejection of real Christianity is sad and insulting. Stop using the internet to form your odd ministry of hate and reliance on a version of the bible that is a re-write, directed from a pedophile King win the 17th Century.

          • Neiman

            There is no proof at all that King James was a pedophile.

            The KJV as compared to the oldest manuscripts and fragments extant, is over 99.9% faithful to the original texts.

            There is no hate in my life except for sin, first in my own life and then the world and those that lead other precious souls into hell by saying their rebellious lifestyles are not sin, calling evil to be good, which opposition ti sin is consistent with God’s Word.

            As you deny Christ as your Savior and Lord, you really have no credibility in judging other Christians.

          • 7point62

            A double minded worldly point of view you espouse, E.
            As I have said many times…You always defend the secular and never agree with the Scriptural..
            .When ya going to come into agreement with the Word of Truth?

            Romans 12:1-5
            New King James Version
            (NKJV)
            Living Sacrifices to God

            12 I beseech you therefore, brethren,
            by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service.

            2 And do not be conformed to this world,
            but be transformed by the renewing of your mind,
            that you may prove what is that good and acceptable
            and perfect will of God.

            Serve God with Spiritual Gifts

            3 For I say, through the grace given to me,
            to everyone who is among you,
            not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think,
            but to think soberly,
            as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith.

            4 For as we have many members in one body,
            but all the members do not have the same function,

            5 so we, being many,
            are one body in Christ, and individually members of one another.

          • ellinas1

            I can reconcile my secular and spiritual/Scriptural views. They exist within me without conflict.
            It is you who is conflicted, and made the choice to reject that knowledge which God gave us to move forward and understand his gifts to us.

          • 7point62

            If you say so E…
            It must be Gospel…
            Take care old greek one,
            and God Bless. :-)

          • 7point62

            And why as well can’t you see what this administration is doing and who they help and hinder with the decisions they make?
            ideological blindness………..

            Its coming to America?

            He!! it is already here and has been for decades…
            quote:

            Obama To Egyptian Christians:
            Stop Protesting Muslim Brotherhood

            As millions of Egyptians take to the streets in protest against President and co-conspirator in the Benghazi attacks Mohamed Morsi, one American journalist has already been killed and no doubt there is much we are not being told. However, American supporter of terrorism Barack Obama, via U.S Ambassador Anne Patterson, has told Egyptian Christians to not engage in protesting the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt. This comes on the heels of him sending US troops to Egypt to quash protests against the Muslim Brotherhood.

            Read more:

            http://freedomoutpost.com/2013/06/obama-to-egyptian-christians-stop-protesting-muslim-brotherhood/#ixzz2Xkdktve0

          • ellinas1

            The adherents of the Coptic Orthodox Church of Alexandria, are they Christian?
            The Greek Orthodox, are they Christian?
            How about the Catholic Christians? Are the Christian?

          • Neiman

            Only those individuals in those man-made religious organizations that have by grace, through faith, been born again are Christians. Being Greek Orthodox or Catholic are meaningless designations.

          • 7point62

            Why not seek Jesus thru prayer and Scripture to answer your question, E.
            The Church is His to judge and rule over, no?
            Two men working in the field?
            One is taken up in the twinkling of an eye,
            and one left behind to see the wrath and all..

          • ellinas1

            I ask the question because Neiman you and others reject anyone who does not believe the way you do.
            I can certainly post the rhetoric coming from Neiman and you agreeing with him.
            So, if in the past those people were not “Christians” why is it, in the name of political expediency, all of a sudden became Christians?
            You reject the Greek Orthodox as not Christians, but somehow the Coptic Orthodox of Egypt are Christians? How do you reconcile this?

            PS: I prayed and read the scripture. I had a major revelation. I was told to ask you.

          • 7point62

            (PS: I prayed and read the scripture. I had a major revelation.
            I was told to ask you. )
            You sure that isn’t the same voice telling ya to post the donkey pictures? :-)

            Only Jesus will Judge His flock E…
            My Bible says that “only the Holy Spirit”
            will allow a man or woman to say:
            Jesus is my personal Lord and Savior
            as there is no other way unto individual Salvation,
            not religious orthodoxy religion or collectivist salvation…
            If you “know Jesus”
            You know the Spirit…
            Not the collective church shall be saved,
            But Christ Jesus is MY savior…
            simple and easy test of the Spirit as to who Jesus sends into your life and who the false spirits send to deceive and confuse…
            Jesus Christ is my personal Lord and Savior.
            there is no other way unto Salvation but Through Him..

          • 7point62

            And meanwhile?

            Back at the DC central planning plantation….
            Both communist and islamist global agendas roll on
            with the complicit help of the water boys and girls
            the global olagarch owns ..lock…stock…and barrel…

            Sunday, June 30, 2013

            Obama’s Epic Failure in Egypt:
            Millions march in Anti-Morsi, Anti-Obama Protests

            Obama’s legacy. History will not be kind to the Muslim Brothehrood stooge in the White House. Imagine, Obama send Morsi 140,000 canisters of tear gas. They won’t soon forget.

            http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2013/06/obamas-epic-failure-in-egypt-millions-march-in-anti-morsi-anti-obama-protests.html

          • ellinas1

            Obama failed in Egypt?
            No, dear friend. It is Morsi and the USA that failed.
            It is the policy of the USA to prop up dictators.
            The people of Egypt yearn to be free.
            And you are right. They will not forget who props up their dictators.
            Obama is just another president who is doing what all US presidents did since the early 1900′s. Prop up dictators for the benefit of their patrons.

          • 7point62

            But it is Barry’s taqiyya islam that supports the global muslim brotherhood agendas…

      • 7point62

        Even the pro democracy Egyptians muslims can see what
        American liberals are blind to…
        Barry is a communist supporter of statist fascism/terrorism.

        Quote:

        I am not sure when the people of Egypt became more worldly than the people here in America but it would seem they have it figured out. Betsy Hiel tweeted a picture of a banner that has been hoisted in Tahrir Square that reads “Obama Supports Terrorism” in both English and Arabic. The banner has been placed in preparation for Sunday’s scheduled protests against Mohamed Morsi and The Muslim Brotherhood.

        Read more:
        http://freedomoutpost.com/2013/06/the-egyptian-people-proclaim-barack-obama-supports-terrorists/#ixzz2XfFGlXHc

  • henrycat

    People, Obamacare is nothing but another power grab for a totalitarian, oppressive Government…. This is 1/7 of the economy…. Realize the the Earth’s population while at 7 billion now, will reach 8 billion by the mid 21st Century. The food supply can only support but so many people…. The Administration knows this and them wanting to save us through Medical procedures when Sebelius and her cronies are forming “death panels” is total hypocrisy….. But what do you expect from the pResident??? This new Health care “reform” will cost the average person much more money without increases in quality. From personal experience, recently my Long Term Care provider requested a 73% increase in premiums. That, I assume is in anticipation of this “wonderful” new law…. The actions now being taken in trying to sell this POS are deplorable in trying to enlist NFL, Sports in general and teenagers trying to sell this to their parents… Repeal the damned law NOW….

    • GameND

      You lost me as soon as you started talking about the earths ability to feed itself. Even an entry level understanding of agricultural science will tell you we will be fine.

      BTW, Long term care is an example of a system that is outdated and in need of major reform. The ACA did not do enough to reform that system.

      • henrycat

        Your statement about the food supply is vague at best…. The assumption is that everyone on Earth will be able to avail themselves to nutritious food at any time in the future is erroneous, let alone at the present. There are pockets of peoples being starved in the world at this time in History. Take a look around…..Sorry….. no sale….. And regarding the ACA……., this sham being sold by the Chief Snake Oil Salesman is an utter failure before it gets going. Check back in about 12 to 18 months when you get a chance to compare your premiums before and after….

        • GameND

          Does hunger in the world happen, yes. Does that happen becuse we are not able to grow the food for those people, or becuse those people are blocked from getting food for political and economic reason?

          Let me break this down for you. Due to advances in how we grow things and how we fertilize, the amount of calories we can take off of one ache of tillable land has doubled several times over the past 40 years. In addition, advances in fertilizer and irrigation has made land that has never been tillable into productive food land.

          Right now, in the deserts of Saudi Arabia, they are growing wheat. That would not have been possible a few years back. We can grow the food, we just cannot always get it to the people who need it.

          In the future, I am going to blog more about this, however, most Americans are very ignorant about the amazing and life savings advances in food science that happen every day right in front of them.

  • JoeMN

    Game

    There are a few details you conveniently left out regarding California’s silver plan

    Such as a $2,000 deductible

    Plus co pays

    Plus fewer qualifying hospitals and doctors

    http://articles.latimes.com/2013/may/24/business/la-fi-health-rates-deals-20130525

    • GameND

      Do you know how health insurance plans work? Heath insurance plans have been limiting Doctors and hospitals for years. They do this becuse they negotiate a lower rate with hospitals in order to become part of the plan. It is not perfect, or even perhaps right, but it is the way things are currently done.

      As I said above, I don’t think the PPACA was perfect, but it was better than what we had.

      Anybody that has ever bought health insurance is well aware that a $2,000 deductible is not very high. Most people I know who buy them on the private market buy $10,000 deductibles and mix them with health savings accounts or flexible spending accounts.

      • JoeMN

        $2,000 to $10,000 dollar deductible plans ?
        For the working poor ?

        Kinda takes the “affordable” out of “Affordable Healthcare Act”

        • GameND

          First off, the “working poor” are covered by Medicaid expansion.

          Second, you must have a union or a government job, becuse a $2000 deductible is very common in the business world. I buy a slightly better plan for my employee’s, however, many people who I am competing with offer similar plans.

          I will also point out, that becuse of ACA, many services are covered pre-delectable. Here is an entire list…http://www.uspreventiveservicestaskforce.org/uspstf/uspsabrecs.htm

  • Bryce Newby

    BS if I ever seen it

  • http://www.facebook.com/willis.forster Willis Forster

    100 assertions do not equal even one fact. There are no cost cuts, just cost shifting.

  • ellinas1

    Aww, come on 7.62. You do not have any names of any conservative capitalist Christian that
    took the initiative to free the black populace of South Africa.
    Therefore, you avoid the question like it is black plague.

    • 7point62

      What does your bitterness toward capitalist Christians have to do with
      Barry and nelson being communist ideologues, in the first place, E
      other than to serve your pre ordained point of view that all in the world is the fault of those same folks? :-)

      • ellinas1

        You drove the conversation to Mandela.
        I said he freed the black people from South Africa.
        You said he is a communist and by extension atheist.
        I asked a simple question. Give me the names of any conservative capitalist Christians that took the initiative to free the black populace of South Africa.
        You see conservative capitalist Christians are the antithesis of the communist atheists.
        So you tell me that I am bitter.
        No my friend. I am not bitter. I am merely reciting facts.
        I am reciting truth which you cannot sweep under the rug and holler Hallelujah Jesus.

        • 7point62

          Well E..

          Why do you completely ignore the global communist ideological driven
          third world social justice rule by elitist oligarchy side of the conversation and only want me to agree with you that a conservative Christian interfering in the internal political affairs of a sovereign nation is some how
          a bad thing so that only leaves the leftist communist alternative?
          Heck E..
          You leftists don’t even want conservative Christians
          to mess with our own political communist systems…

          • ellinas1

            No. The issue is simple. The man you abhor liberated those people.
            The people you adore did nothing.
            I would have been very happy if Christians took the initiative to free the blacks of South Africa.

          • 7point62

            (The issue is simple. The man you abhor )
            I abhor no man E.
            your a$$umption is duly noted tho…
            Tyranist/statist ideologies men follow?
            I ABHOR……
            Yes E…
            even the lefts lord and savior Barry Soetoro
            I do not abhor….But I do “strongly dislike” him…
            ya taught me well, E…

          • ellinas1

            Please allow me to rephrase that:
            The man you strongly dislike liberated those people.
            The people you adore did nothing.

            PS: Gosh darn and darned damnation. You learn quick. ; -)

          • 7point62

            The Holy Ghost told me I caught on quick…
            Spiritual things are Spiritually Discerned.

            Philippians 1:8-11
            New King James Version
            (NKJV)

            8 For God is my witness, how greatly I long for you all with the affection of Jesus Christ.

            9 And this I pray, that your love may abound still more and more in knowledge and all discernment,
            10 that you may approve the things that are excellent, that you may be sincere and without offense till the day of Christ,
            11 being filled with the fruits of righteousness which are by Jesus Christ, to the glory and praise of God.

  • ellinas1

    To sum it up. You cannot point to any conservative capitalist Christian that took the initiative to free them.
    One man answered the call. His name is Nelson Mandela.
    And contrary to what you say, he did not set up a marxist state in South Africa.

    • 7point62

      Your pre determined “single point straw man” accusations of the evil conservative Christians is once again duly noted single point strawman master….You make the false argument to win your pre conceived ideological point of view , once again a legend in your own mind… :-)

      • ellinas1

        My argument is not false.
        You railed against Mandela being a communist and by extension atheist.
        I pointed out he fought to free the black populace of South Africa.
        In short the communist atheist whom you abhor, did what the conservative capitalist Christians you adore, did not do.
        Such a simple premise.

        PS: Please explain clearly why my argument is false, and why it is a pre determined “single point straw man”

        • 7point62

          You don’t acknowledge the obvious leftist bias to communist ideologies.
          Short and to the point.
          but I did acknowledge that the “whole” of the Federal government,
          including the conservative Christians, have no say in the eternal affairs of a sovereign foreign nation….
          Under the guise of the UN and other globalist groups America is always being put in the seat of peace keeper and armed force police for global cause and intent.
          those so called nutty Tea Party types know this to be true and you are blind to these facts, or “to stubborn to admidt” your chosen leaders as well, are in over their ears to globalism and/or communist ideologies.

          • ellinas1

            I have no bias to communist ideologies.
            And I agree that we have no business in the internal or external affairs of other nations.
            Does this mean we leave Iran alone? How about Israel?

            Since you believe we have no business in the internal affairs of other nations, do we restore relations with Cuba?

            Also Reagan meddled in the internal affairs of other nations day in and day out. Does that make him a communist?

          • 7point62

            I will stick with Scriptures on how the nations should deal with Israel.
            Those who Bless and support her?
            God will Bless and support…
            Those who curse or make war against them?
            God will bring about curse that causes great calamity for them.

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