Say Anything Blog

Is this a problem about Thompson not pandering to Dobson or not appealing to the church going voters?

Because if it’s the former then who gives a rip.  People don’t vote because of what Dobson said.  They vote their conscious.

The only thing the evangelical leaders have been good at is getting ahead of the church going public and pretending to be leading.  Politically speaking of course.

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What’s going to happen to US industry when the global warming extremists like John McCain double the price of electricity?  I would think all these factories will close and set up in countries where they aren’t scared of technology.

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I’m a very conservative Christian but sometimes I wish Dobson would just pipe down.  Is he really saying that God has an opinion about McCain-Feingold?

His ministry takes the very valid view that “God cares about every area of our lives” and twists that into “God has an opinion about every single decision I make, and James Dobson knows what it is”.

Dobson is a Douche and should spend his time focusing on the family, not fucking with Fred.

that dear friends was a literary device known as alliteration.  I just love the benefits of Senior English in High school.

“His ministry takes the very valid view that “God cares about every area of our lives” and [he] twists that into “God has an opinion about every single decision I make, and James Dobson knows what it is.”

Most true believers in Christ study the Word daily and based on the amount of Spiritual light they have, they make decisions about what they think God would want them to do in every situation in life. That does not mean they believe they and they alone know God’s complete Will on every matter - which is what you are falsely charging Dobson of doing, but they do want to faithful to God by doing His Will and people like Dobson simply share their views more publicly than others, albeit against your will.

The only thing the evangelical leaders have been good at is getting ahead of the church going public and pretending to be leading.

Most of these evangelical leaders you thus condemn are leaders of large congregations, they are often involved in much larger, often global reach ministries and both Christians and non-Christians seek their views on issues of the day, including about candidates, for a variety of reasons, almost none of them being nefarious.

As a fiscal conservative who has grown a little weary of elections being more about things like gay marriage and Christian issues than the war on terror and fiscal policy, it’d be nice to see a candidate who’s a bit more independent of the Dobsons of the world.

I believe as evangelical Christians are increasingly guilty of caring about abortion, gay marriage and other moral issues, to your consternation and/or irritation I might add, I believe it is better that they stay away from the ballot box entirely and leave you atheists, agnostics and carnal Christians to - well to yourselves. Unfortunately, that will allow the Democrats to control the entire country, but at least then you’ll not be able to complain about those damnable Christian influences in our politic affairs.

The issue is quite clear and quite easy: Evangelicals should shut up and stay out of the political process entirely, it is part of your world system anyway; and then it will be fascinating to see how and if you can ever get another Republican or conservative elected to office anywhere. Otherwise, as disagreeable as you might find it, if Evangelicals are going to support your conservative candidates, I guess you may have to tolerate a little free political speech from them and allow them to push for their much hated moral issues.

Now, what would you like to choose?
[ ] Evangelical Christians stop voting and turn the Republican Party over to the secularists and thereby the country over to the Democrats completely.
[ ] Make the party inviting to Evangelical Christians, including allowing that scum some amount of free political speech and advance a few of those damnable moral issues.
[ ] Try the impossible and tell evangelical Christians to shut the hell up, leave their spiritual beliefs at home and vote for conservatives that do not support their beliefs. I would love to see how you accomplish this option.

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No matter the age or state of health, for a military man it is always glorious to tilt at windmills, rescue a fair Dulcinea and be a gallant knight in armor in a glorious cause.

Most of these evangelical leaders you thus condemn are leaders of large congregations, they are often involved in much larger, often global reach ministries and both Christians and non-Christians seek their views on issues of the day, including about candidates, for a variety of reasons, almost none of them being nefarious.

I said politically speaking Neiman.  I’m giving credit to the churchgoers to vote their conscious as they see fit.  Whether or not Dobson endorses Fred Thompson the average Christian is going to vote for who they think will be the best moral leader.

In no way was I diminishing a person who goes to church and was also voting.  I don’t like some of the self appointed leaders in the Christian Political scene but I trust the Christian voters to do the right thing.

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What’s going to happen to US industry when the global warming extremists like John McCain double the price of electricity?  I would think all these factories will close and set up in countries where they aren’t scared of technology.

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I am a Fred Head! He has great conservative core values. Go Fred!

John M,

Your comment and the subsequent discussion you’re provoked, highlight a distinction between those on/in the Right and those on the left… a distinction that is too often ignored.

Ronald Reagan’s famous Eleventh Commandment, to not speak ill of another Republican, was directed at GOP candidates and officials, not at Republicans in general.  Those of us on/in the Right are quite “liberal” in our criticism of other Republicans, which to me indicates far more independence of thought and adherence to principles than is ever demonstrated by those on the left.

For example, when was the last time you read about a Democrat criticizing Nan Aaron of the so-called Alliance for Justice?  When have Democrats criticized Ralph Neas of PAW for his outright lies?  Or Ramsey Clark of International ANSWER, Medea Benjamin of Code Pink, Amy Goodman of Democracy Now!, or Nadine Strossen or Dorothy Erhlich of the ACLU?  For that matter, which serious candidate for the Dem’s ‘08 presidential nomination has criticized the MoveOn.org ad sliming General Petraeus?

Read about any criticism from the left of Jesse Jackson’s career of extortion, or Julian Bond’s virulent self-pity?  Ever?

For whatever reason, paranoid loyalty, congenital ignorance, or simple fear, those on the left don’t criticize the words and actions of their fellow liberals, whereas those of us on/in the Right criticize our fellow Republicans with rich abandon.  People on the left talk a lot about democracy.  They rarely mention freedom.  Those of us on/in the Right know better.  And we act accordingly.

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“Poverty of goods is easily cured; poverty of the mind is irreparable.”

Whistler: I wasn’t attacking you or claiming you have any negative views towards Christians. I was solely responding to the point you raised about these Evangelical leaders, even self-anointed leaders, by my pointing out they are most often genuine leaders in the Evangelical Christian community for the many reasons I stated.

Second, are you suggesting that because these people have gained the following and respect of large numbers of sincere Christians and either within their ministries or when called upon by the media they should remain silent about their views? Dobson has a massive ministry via radio, public appearances as a Christian Psychologist, his books and other Christian related works, and so thereby he expresses his opinion which the secular media promotes even further and/or the media seeks him out as a leader within the Christian community.

Note: I am not a supporter in any shape, manner or form of Dobson’s ministry or Christian Psychology in general, my responses herein are solely to counter the tendency to condemn Christians via such leaders pronouncements for daring to speak out on issues they feel are important to their lives. They not only have a Constitutional right to do so, they are obligated by their faith in Christ to speak to the critical moral issues in the world. Does that include endorsing political candidates? Probably not a good idea as it diminishes their Christian message. What about moral/social issues? Yes, every Christian has such an obligation and if candidate A is more closely supportive of those issues than candidate B, then if by implication that amounts to an endorsement of candidate A, so be it!

One little housekeeping detail: twice you have said most Christian vote their ‘conscious,’ whilst I believe you meant ‘conscience?’ I do hope they only vote while conscious, but actually vote according to their conscience.

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No matter the age or state of health, for a military man it is always glorious to tilt at windmills, rescue a fair Dulcinea and be a gallant knight in armor in a glorious cause.

the average Christian is going to vote for who they think will be the best moral leader.

toot, I’m not sure what is an average Christian but this Christian considers other candidate characteristics as well.  Honesty is high on my list although I realize that ‘honest politician’ is an oxymoron.  However there are some politicians, mostly liberal, that I wouldn’t believe if they said the sun was shining in the middle of the day.

Like many others I believe that the biggest moral issues are abortion and homosexual marriage.  I know where the Democrats stand on these issues but I’m not sure of the Republicans.  However, if Hillary or Obama are the Democratic candidate, I’ll probably for the Republican regardless who it is.

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You don’t have to be a moron to be a liberal Democrat but it sure helps.

*shrug*

Rob,

As a Christian, I can tell you that I think Dobson is a good moral leader and yet I ignore his political advice.  Conversely, I think Fred Thompson will make a great political leader as POTUS, but I probably wouldn’t ask him for Biblical commentary.

The annoying part is that Dobson hasn’t realized what his former partner, Chuck Colson, realized years ago: Christians shouldn’t provide political leadership as Christians.  In other words, while you should certainly allow your religion to inform your political decisions, you shouldn’t use religious authority in the political arena.  The media only compound the problem with Dobson by making him out to be more influential than he is in reality.  The only difference between Dobson and Jesse Jackson is that they actively aid and abet Jackson while denigrating Dobson.

I fail to understand the significance of God’s Will in choosing between Romney (a Mormon), Guiliani (a Catholic, I believe), McCain (barely religious at all and not sure if he is an Episcopalian or a Baptist), and Fred (who comes off rather indifferent).  I don’t see that any of these four are running on the platform of WWJD.

So what exactly is Dobson talking about?  Thompson voted for the Defense of Marriage Act that allows each state to determine what constitutes a marriage and no other state has to recognize those of another state that do not conform to their law.

Funny, but Dobson wants a Constitutional Amendment that expands the power of the Federal Government to dictate to the states what a marriage is--something that the 10th Amendment makes a power of the States or of the People.  Expanded Federal Powers probably are not something that Conservatives should stand for. 

“Isn’t Thompson the candidate who is opposed to a Constitutional amendment to protect marriage, believes there should be 50 different definitions of marriage in the U.S., favors McCain-Feingold, won’t talk at all about what he believes, and can’t speak his way out of a paper bag on the campaign trail?” Dobson wrote.

Yeah, McCain Feingold was bad, but how bout attacking the guy that wrote the piece of shit legislation.  And why should he talk about his religious views?  Is panhandling at Liberty University, ORU, and Bob Jones U and reading Bible verses a necessity to be a Republican?  He isn’t Evangelical enough or vocal enough about God directing his every move for Dobson.  That is really what this is about.  Thompson is not running around kissing Dobson, Robertson, and so forth’s asses enough and probably won’t create a cabinet level position of Secretary of Jesus for them.  And they don’t like it.

BTW, anyone ever think that Conservative Republicans may also believe in smaller government, be fiscal conservatives, support state’s rights, want strong border enforcement, and be strong on national defense without needing JESUS TO ENDORSE THOSE POSITIONS?

Neiman, you got me on that one.  I should have said conscience.  Thanks for catching that.

What I’m saying is that the average Christian has just as good or perhaps better political instincts as the church leaders.

I think those church going members vote their conscience rather than how their leadership tells them to vote.

For example I generally vote the same as the evangelical Christians although I’m an old-line church guy.

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What’s going to happen to US industry when the global warming extremists like John McCain double the price of electricity?  I would think all these factories will close and set up in countries where they aren’t scared of technology.

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Justin B.:

Conservative Republicans may also believe in smaller government, be fiscal conservatives, support state’s rights, want strong border enforcement, and be strong on national defense without needing JESUS TO ENDORSE THOSE POSITIONS?

The question is, why would any true Christian vote for someone that does not share their Judeo-Christian values/beliefs? To ask it another way, if your Conservative Republican candidates want to ignore Christians and their beliefs, why should they expect or even ask for their votes?

Fred Thompson need not appeal to Dobson or pay attention - homage to any other Christian leaders as you suggested, but if Evangelical Christians decide the candidate does not share their Judeo/Christian values, I believe they will not vote to nominate them and I believe enough will sit out the next election to deny them the White House.

For any true Bible believing Christian, what difference is there between two people running for the White House if they are both disrespectful of Christ and the Church? Why should we vote between two disciples of hell? You secularists (no insult or disrespect intended) can deal with that matter on your own.

I am becoming convinced that considering yours, Rob’s and millions of other Conservatives being to varying degrees disdainful of Evangelical Christians, I would like to see a movement in this country encouraging Christians to stop voting for any political candidate and thereby allow this country to be run completely by secularists (Right & Left) and then they will no longer be responsible for the national consequences of voting non-Christians into office.

Christians don’t vote for any candidate that does not by word and deeds support your Judeo-Christian values.

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No matter the age or state of health, for a military man it is always glorious to tilt at windmills, rescue a fair Dulcinea and be a gallant knight in armor in a glorious cause.

I don’t think the national polls are what really matters right now.  It is the statewide polls in the states that matter as well as which candidate has the the ground program and money.  The candidate winning Iowa and New Hampshire certainly will have a leg up going into the Tsunami Tuesday, February 5. 

And as we know, it is still too early to count anyone out but maybe Paul, Gravel, Kucinich. 

The Rs are certainly in much more of a fluid state right now but both parties know it is very early and what matters right now for both parties is securing the party base since they get the seats at the convention and decide the ultimate candidate.

It is the statewide polls in the states that matter as well as which candidate has the the ground program and money.

You are right and I think Fred Thompson will not make it past Super-Tuesday!

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No matter the age or state of health, for a military man it is always glorious to tilt at windmills, rescue a fair Dulcinea and be a gallant knight in armor in a glorious cause.

I read more on this matter and all of Rob’s ranting and raving, okay maybe not exactly ranting and raving; but his Dobson and evangelical bashing seems to be over a private email to Dobson’s friends, not part of the Focus on the Family ministry. Further, he stated why he would not personally be supporting Rob’s candidate (Thompson) or McCain or Guiliani. Lastly, he did not appear to have encouraged even his friends, let alone his supporters to not support Thompson, he was only expressing his personal decision and his doubts that Thompson would get the nomination.

That is a lot different than the intimation above that Dobson was commanding his evangelical army to defeat Thomson.

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No matter the age or state of health, for a military man it is always glorious to tilt at windmills, rescue a fair Dulcinea and be a gallant knight in armor in a glorious cause.

As we get closer to the Iowa Caucuses and New Hampshire, you will see the base constituency group leaders on both sides trying to move their constituencies and that will include Dobson trying to move his group. It’s all about the big MO coming out of Iowa and New Hampshire.

The egregious reaction to Dobson’s personal opinion simply illustrates how popular Christian bashing has become.

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Leftie political philosophy, from a DU commenter:

It doesn’t matter if it’s true or not. RUMOR IS TRUTH. The modern laws of media hype and political warfare have a useful tenet: Repeat ANYTHING or raise false concern over ANYTHING and it is likely to be planted in the conscious/subconscious of many voters.

Forgive my naive question however since at the time I was busy indulging in my own narcissism at the time to bother paying attention however did the evangelicals get heavy into politics because of the abortion issue around the mid 1970 and wasn’t their candidate socialist Jimmy Carter? 

Then when Reagan spoke to evangelicals he endorsed them as opposed to asking for their endorsement at which point the evangelical movement folded into the Republican Party?

Honestly sometimes I wonder if not for R vs W perhaps the socialist movement would have died before Jimmy Carter’s election.

The candidate winning Iowa and New Hampshire certainly will have a leg up going into the Tsunami Tuesday, February 5.

I don’t think those primaries mean squat except to maybe weed out some of the less popular candidates.  From Wiki regarding New Hamshire

Before 1992 the person elected president had always carried the primary, but Bill Clinton broke the pattern in 1992, as did George W. Bush in 2000. Moreover, the winner in New Hampshire has not always gone to win his party’s nomination, as demonstrated by Republicans John McCain in 2000 and Pat Buchanan in 1996.

The Iowa results are more fragmented. Interestingly, in 1992, Bill Clinton only received 3 percent of the Iowa vote.

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You don’t have to be a moron to be a liberal Democrat but it sure helps.

DD, true, but the other side is that money is easier to raise to continue your campaign when you win or finish in the top two in either of these states, and Fred’s money raising has been lackluster to say the least.  Giulani and Romney are setting pretty good money wise and machine wise and can get through to Tsunami Tuesday with plenty of cash on hand.

But you are right in that it is early and early leaders can see their leads vanish which is why you can’t count Huckabee out.

To ask it another way, if your Conservative Republican candidates want to ignore Christians and their beliefs, why should they expect or even ask for their votes?

Fred Thompson need not appeal to Dobson or pay attention - homage to any other Christian leaders as you suggested, but if Evangelical Christians decide the candidate does not share their Judeo/Christian values, I believe they will not vote to nominate them and I believe enough will sit out the next election to deny them the White House.

So the point being that as long as you talk the talk and go to a few Evangelical churches and kiss Dobson and Robertson’s asses enough, they will deem you sufficiently Christian that they won’t out and out use their clout to try to sabotage your campaign.

I happen to believe that government is the job of good and honest men who stand for the principles of the Constitution.  That you can support and protect the Constitution without regularly praying or tithing to an Evangelical church.  That Catholics and Mormons and Agnostics and Athiests can lead our nation.  That folks that make a show of being good Christians (usually in times of transgressions) tend to make the worst leaders and that men of silent faith and conviction make the best.

Clinton was a good Evangelical.  Get Billy Graham to pray with him after he got busted getting a BJ.  Go to all the Southern Black churches and dance and sing and hoot and hollah.  Neiman wants a candidate that does the dog and pony show and talks about faith and prays with the good Evangelicals.

Who you gonna support Neiman?  Romney?  McCain?  Rudy?  Ron Paul?  If you think any other candidate has a shot at winning the nomination, offer them up.  Time to start picking.  Maybe Thompson isn’t perfect for everyone and the Evangelical power brokers want someone else, so it is up to them to vote for one of the four or just abstain completely including in November 08.  Elect someone that IS PRO-CHOICE and will raise taxes.  Who exactly is your choice?

Mine is Fred followed by the Mormon.  Then the serial womanizer.  Then if a comet destroyed the entire world except for McCain and Hillary, I would vote for the Rino.  But personally, I am holding out for a ticket of Paul-Kucinich that gives us a crossover pairing of folks that will usher in a new dawn of moonbattery.

(Disclosure: Thusfar, I’m leaning toward supporting Thompson.)

Here’s where I stand, as an evangelical Christian, Southern Baptist, and a Sunday School teacher:  we aren’t electing a pastor.  We’re electing a president.  This means that, in my view, a moral non-devout person is better than a immoral, pseudo-devout person.  This is not to conflate the question of eternal destination, as friend Neiman seems to.  I’m not arguing that I think Thompson is going to heaven when he dies, or that Jesus is his personal Savior, etc., because I don’t know that.  I’m saying that, while I don’t agree with everything Fred stands for (McCain-Feingold sticks in my craw a bit), I have enough common ground to support him and think that he can govern well.  For now.

If my choices are two “disciples of hell,” then, I will try to pick one in good conscience who will do the least harm to the cause of Christ and the working of His church in the world.  That is my privilege as an American.  And if I have severe moral compunction against both candidates (outside of the state of their souls), then I may abstain.

The tricky thing for “Bible-believing” Christians here is that there is no Scriptural precedent for representative democracy, so we don’t have an easy proof-text to tag. When the Book was written, there were theocracies and empires.  The Apostle Paul did not give any teaching on how to vote properly.  God, in His wisdom, leaves our stance in this up to us, as we use our God-given wisdom and discernment, and try to follow His leading as best as we can.  So obviously, some will feel differently convicted than others. 

Brother Dobson, who has done good things for God’s people, feels differently than I do. That’s fine.  I would caution him to have a bit more humility in political matters, but I advise that of myself.

God bless Fred!…

Neiman wants a candidate that does the dog and pony show and talks about faith and prays with the good Evangelicals.

As I was being polite and civil, I regret that you decided not to read my words just as written and I wish you had refrained from mis-characterizing my beliefs in this matter. But, since you did I’ll leave you to yourself and your prejudices against Christ and the Church and not try and offer you more words to mis-characterize.

TeacherDave:
Actually, Christ said we were to come out from the world, to be separate from the world while living in it, to there render whatever taxes are required without complaint and to obey their laws, until and unless they demand we disobey the Laws of God. This could easily be interpreted as saying, don’t vote at all, as you are voting for people that are part of this world system, as our only king is the Lord.

On the other hand, I see no requirement that we not vote or not try and influence our laws. It is up to each man/woman to decide what is best according to the dicates of their conscience. While many here will object, I would submit that we would not enjoy the liberty wherein we now stand had it not been for mostly Christian men that with God’s guidance created and drafted our Declaration of Independence, Constitution and Bill of Rights. Yet, sadly since that time there has been a stedy march and sure movement away from dependence upon God in our affairs until now, under a succession of your lessor of two evils candidates, this nation has told the Lord He is personna non grata in the public square, is no longer welcomed in our affairs and they have turned our Founding Documents on their heads declaring an official, national, open hostility to Christ and the Church.

You said you would choose the least evil of two candidates the one that would do the least harm to the cause of Christ might and to our country. Tell me how a Christian can knowingly choose between two clear evils or two clearly evil people, are they not then knowingly voting for evil only to some imagined lessor degree?

Lastly, I don’t believe any man or woman can lead this country justly and refrain from advancing positive evils like abortion, homosexual marriage, euthanasia, laws hostile to the cause of Christ and etcetera unless they fear God and earnestly, sincerely recognize “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

To vote any man or woman into power over this country that does not bow before Natures God’ with all sincereity in their hearts, will lead this nation down the into the moral sewer and to its swift and utter destruction. But, of course you are free to vote for and support such leaders if you choose.

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No matter the age or state of health, for a military man it is always glorious to tilt at windmills, rescue a fair Dulcinea and be a gallant knight in armor in a glorious cause.

Good points all, Neiman, but I have one question: How does not voting advance anything?  It is certainly a dilemma, and not one easily resolved, I think.

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Leftie political philosophy, from a DU commenter:

It doesn’t matter if it’s true or not. RUMOR IS TRUTH. The modern laws of media hype and political warfare have a useful tenet: Repeat ANYTHING or raise false concern over ANYTHING and it is likely to be planted in the conscious/subconscious of many voters.

Robert108: Of course, that is why I pointed out the Christian faith of most of our Founding Father’s as an example in the opposite direction. Not being involved, not trying to advance pro-Christian views and elect Christian candidates is a type of passivity that I believe does advance evil.

My question, not to you, for me, is this: Can I knowingly vote for any candidate that does not appear to my best judgment to believe in God, fear God and sincerely believe in basic Judeo-Christian values and still call my self a true Christian? It is said, we must vote for the lessor of two evils and I say to myself, why should I be in such a low spiritual state wherein I would knowingly vote for any kind of evil at all. (Don’t get me wrong, I am certainly no dreamer and I don’t demand a perfect, spiritually pure candidate; only a God fearing person that I feel would strive to uphold Judeo-Christian values in all their decisions, as best they can)

I struggle with the answer for myself, I surely do not pretend to answer it for anyone else. Right now I will only support candidates I believe have some level of sincere faith in Christ, when it comes to the nomination unless I am strongly convinced the candidate shares my belief in Christ and my Judeo-Christian values, they will not get my vote. If a person absent those qualifications gets the nomination, I could not have a clear conscience and vote for them and with Democrats being out f the running in my mind, I would sit out the 2008 Presidential election.

Right or wrong? Up to you!

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No matter the age or state of health, for a military man it is always glorious to tilt at windmills, rescue a fair Dulcinea and be a gallant knight in armor in a glorious cause.

Right or wrong? Up to you!

For me, it’s not so simple. What I know is that if one doesn’t vote, one is powerless, and tends to throw the election to the one who operates at the lowest level: emotionality.  You know who does that.  It is much more difficult to make something other than a black/white decision.  It is easier to abdicate responsibility than to make a decision between less than perfect alternatives, IMO.

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Leftie political philosophy, from a DU commenter:

It doesn’t matter if it’s true or not. RUMOR IS TRUTH. The modern laws of media hype and political warfare have a useful tenet: Repeat ANYTHING or raise false concern over ANYTHING and it is likely to be planted in the conscious/subconscious of many voters.

I think Dobson is rude and judgemental to proclaim Fred Thompson is not a Christian.

What I know is that if one doesn’t vote, one is powerless, and tends to throw the election to the one who operates at the lowest level: emotionality.

Well said, robert.  The ballot box is still the primary way that citizens can express their desires to politicians.  If one doesn’t vote they are effectively muting their voice.

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You don’t have to be a moron to be a liberal Democrat but it sure helps.

We better be careful and vote the way Dobson and Robertson tell us to… or else…

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,175247,00.html

All eight Dover, Pa., school board members up for re-election were defeated Tuesday after trying to introduce “intelligent design” — the belief that the universe is so complex that it must have been created by a higher power — as an alternative to the theory of evolution.

“I’d like to say to the good citizens of Dover: If there is a disaster in your area, don’t turn to God. You just rejected him from your city,” Robertson said on the Christian Broadcasting Network’s “700 Club.”

I think Dobson is rude and judgemental to proclaim Fred Thompson is not a Christian.

It was a private opinion shared by email with friends, it had nothing to do with his ministry and he did not ask others not to vote for Thompsom. So, tell me why this is rude and judgmental?

Thompson has the responsibility to make his religious faith clear or I believe that he nor you have any complaint when others draw certain conclusions about his faith and as an act of conscience share those feelings with others and withhold their vote.

Robert108 and DocDave: Did you fail to read my comments: “I struggle with the answer for myself, I surely do not pretend to answer it for anyone else.” So you disagree and should not try and change my views on the matter, should you?

I will not knowingly vote for evil in any form, that is my choice and according to the dictates of my conscience.

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No matter the age or state of health, for a military man it is always glorious to tilt at windmills, rescue a fair Dulcinea and be a gallant knight in armor in a glorious cause.

I will not knowingly vote for evil in any form…

Once again, how can you be so sure that someone who doesn’t do your version of Christianity is “evil”?
I’m sure Christ Himself wouldn’t be so judgmental.

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Leftie political philosophy, from a DU commenter:

It doesn’t matter if it’s true or not. RUMOR IS TRUTH. The modern laws of media hype and political warfare have a useful tenet: Repeat ANYTHING or raise false concern over ANYTHING and it is likely to be planted in the conscious/subconscious of many voters.

Neiman...I have a problem with anyone assuming someone elses faith. I believe Dobson should have withheld his judgement, even in private. No one really knows what God has in store for each individual. AND perhaps Fred Thompsons faith will be stronger when he holds office???

Neiman...Sometimes individuals such as Dobson or “Great men of God”. OR leaders of large congregations. OR outreaches etc… Need to remember why they are there. Do you see what I mean? I realize Dobson said this in an email. BUT it got out. Has Dobson done anything to stop the hurt that it might have caused to Fred Thompson personally or politically?

ZZ:

I realize Dobson said this in an email. BUT it got out.

1. Yes, Dobson should have known that in this day and age nothing is private, especially if the person is somehow and the limelight. But, are Christians leaders now to be denied any right to private conversations, even by email? I have to wonder how this email got published.
2. Are you suggesting that a Christian minister, having concerns that a candidate does not share the Christian faith should be silent and knowingly keep his fellow believers in darkness about those concerns? Because most people are very busy and don’t keep up with the news, it is a good thing that some ministers are aware of the political world and can share what they know or even feel about a candidate to help guide others in looking more closely at a candidate, pro or con. The key here is that people hearing such news should investigate the facts for themselves before making a decision.
3. You said: “I have a problem with anyone assuming someone elses faith.” I understand! But, you and most Christians do not understand that Jesus tells us many important things about how we view others, among these we are told to be wise as serpents, knowing that the people of this world are used by the enemy of our souls to bring us harm. Next, while we are commanded not to judge the eternal fate (salvation) of anyone, we are directed by the Lord to judge their fruits (words and actions) to see if they conform to God’s Word and if not, while still not judging whether they are saved or not, to not have fellwoship with them. Thus, Dobson only said he was not aware of anything in Thompson’s life to indicate he was a true or devoted brother in Christ; and as most Christians prefer devoted Christians for our political leaders, he was simply making friends aware of his concerns. He never said don’t vote for Thompson, he never said Thompson was evil, he only shared his concrens with friends that they might be aware that Thompson might not share their Christian faith. I see absolutely nothing wrong with his actions. Had he notified people via the radio or his print ministery of his concerns, I still think it was/is wholly appropriate.

Remember, I am not a supporter of Dobson, so I am defending him objectively. I am sorry but I find no cause to condemn Dobson’s actions or even advise him to be more politically sensitive.

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No matter the age or state of health, for a military man it is always glorious to tilt at windmills, rescue a fair Dulcinea and be a gallant knight in armor in a glorious cause.

Once again, how can you be so sure that someone who doesn’t do your version of Christianity is “evil”? I’m sure Christ Himself wouldn’t be so judgmental.

Once again, without cause you have gone on the attack against me. Sad reallY!

1. I was speaking in general terms, not about any individual, so your charges of judging someone are false, a false witness. 2. I don’t have a version of Christianity, faith in Christ and developing a personal intimate relationship with him is hardly a ‘version’ of Christianity, it is at the heart. 3. All any true Christian can do is examine the words and actions of other people and with the degree of spiritual light they possess, decide if that person appears to share the faith once delivered or not. They can be wrong, but it is not for you to judge whether they are right or wrong, only the Lord can judge and He will bring any correction required. 4. If I determine a candidate does not seem to demonstrate fruits of the Spirit and/or by word or action are hostile to Christ and the Church; even if he/she seems to be a nice person, should I vote for them? I think not! I have given reasons why many of our Founding Father’s actually said the people should prefer and elect Christians to political office. None of them, in my opinion, would have knowingly supported or elected anyone they felt was hostile to Christ and the Church, am I to set a lower standard?

You may support and vote for an atheist or a member of the Satanic Church if you choose to do so, that is your right. You can justify those votes to your own conscience. I simply, as a wholly personal matter of conscience choose not to support or vote for anyone that does not by profession and past history appear to bear the fruits of a Christian.

Last note: I do not support charitable causes that, no matter how much good they seem to do, leave the people they help in spiritual darkness. The same with political candidates, while I don’t expect them to evangelize from office or be hostile to people of other faiths, I cannot vote for them if they seem not to have a fear of God and faith in Christ. Call me unAmerican!

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No matter the age or state of health, for a military man it is always glorious to tilt at windmills, rescue a fair Dulcinea and be a gallant knight in armor in a glorious cause.

Neiman...You are right. Dobson didn’t do anything illegal or malicious. BUT is he certain Fred Thompson is NOT a christian? OR was he judging. Judge not lest thy be judged. I believe that was what the Lord said???

Once again, without cause you have gone on the attack against me. Sad reallY!

So, now asking you some questions is an “attack”? You are being childish.

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Leftie political philosophy, from a DU commenter:

It doesn’t matter if it’s true or not. RUMOR IS TRUTH. The modern laws of media hype and political warfare have a useful tenet: Repeat ANYTHING or raise false concern over ANYTHING and it is likely to be planted in the conscious/subconscious of many voters.

ZZ: I just explained from scripture we are called to judge the spiritual fruits (words & actions) of others to determine if they are consistent with the Spirit of Christ or not. To judge someone in a spiritual way as you imply, means to say they are or are not saved; but accroding to God’s Word to judge in the sense of assessing the fruits of someones life to determine if they are consistent with the Spirit of Christ is entirely a different matter, we are all expected by the Lord to make such fruit inspections in charity and mercy of course.

Dobson made a personal determination that Thompson appeared to fail this test and so he passed on his feelings/impressions to his friends. What a horrible political crime and stain upon Christianity, right? I don’t get it, I thought he was protected under the First Amendment, but apparently he is not!

how can you be so sure that someone who doesn’t do your version of Christianity is “evil”? I’m sure Christ Himself wouldn’t be so judgmental.

That (above) does not appear to me to be a rational discussion of the essential facts of a matter or debating other sides of an issue in a civil manner, but it is to accuse me of judging a specific person’s salvation and harshly judging other people as to whether or not they adhere to my peculiar version of Christianity. So, it certainly appears to be a personal attack on me versus a debate of the issues.

Your ’childish‘ comment against me appears to be simply more of what I perceive to be your constant personal attacks and politics of personal destruction, which appears to be to be your mode operand every time someone views an issue opposite or even slightly different than your own.

It is all so unnecessary, I went out of my way to explain I was not foisting my views on others and I detailed the narrow limits of my views in a civil, decent and rational manner. In reponse to a question from you, I even expressed my own honest struggle with the question at hand and admitted your views were valid. But, as so often appears to be the case, anything less than absolute submission to your will by everyone you contact is unacceptable to you.

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No matter the age or state of health, for a military man it is always glorious to tilt at windmills, rescue a fair Dulcinea and be a gallant knight in armor in a glorious cause.

Neiman: My questions were specifically about a statement you made to the effect that you wouldn’t vote for anyone who was evil, and I asked you directly(and without attack) how you could be so sure if someone was “evil”.  Why do you need to obfuscate so much?
It was a simple question, and yes, you do appear to me to be quite judgmental, in the sum of your comments over time.

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Leftie political philosophy, from a DU commenter:

It doesn’t matter if it’s true or not. RUMOR IS TRUTH. The modern laws of media hype and political warfare have a useful tenet: Repeat ANYTHING or raise false concern over ANYTHING and it is likely to be planted in the conscious/subconscious of many voters.

Robert108:

yes, you do appear to me to be quite judgmental, in the sum of your comments over time.

1. So do you!
2. Your comments over time make it appear to me that more often than not you are a petty bully and an egocentric personality with megalomaniacal tendencies.
3. Concerning your statement “how can you be so sure that someone who doesn’t do your version of Christianity is “evil”? I’m sure Christ Himself wouldn’t be so judgmental.” I cannot believe that any rational person would view these statements as a civil debate of the issue, but rather as a personal attack on my character.
4. That which is not of Christ is evil, that means most of what I say and do, almost everything you say and do and most every human might say or do is evil, the world is evil. If I do not see, according to my personal judgment the fruits of the Spirit in a person, by word and/or action then I must reject it or them for the health of my own soul - not yours, not anyone elses - mine. The Bible says to do that which we believe is evil is to sin. But, you would demand that everyone agree with you on everything and even violate their own consience just to satisfy your ego and that is wrong.

I have tried to be civil, decent, reasonable and fair with you in this and under every other thread, but it is impossible because you demand absolute submission and only absolute submission to your will regarding everything under the sun and I refuse! I have a right to my opinion and although I am willing to debate my views ad naseum, when you resort to name calling and personal attacks, I am not going to remain passive, I will respond.

Go back to my first post responding to your comments to me - it was a very civil, rational, decent and generous reply offered in a most respectful manner and tone; which you instantly rejected because it was not according to your will.

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No matter the age or state of health, for a military man it is always glorious to tilt at windmills, rescue a fair Dulcinea and be a gallant knight in armor in a glorious cause.

Your comments over time make it appear to me that more often than not you are a petty bully and an egocentric personality with megalomaniacal
tendencies.

More personal attack from you.  Can’t you simply discuss things?  I asked you a simple question about your use of the word “evil”, and you react like a spoiled child.  I think you can do better than this; at least I hope so.

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Leftie political philosophy, from a DU commenter:

It doesn’t matter if it’s true or not. RUMOR IS TRUTH. The modern laws of media hype and political warfare have a useful tenet: Repeat ANYTHING or raise false concern over ANYTHING and it is likely to be planted in the conscious/subconscious of many voters.

1. I did answer your question more than once. I always answer your questions, directly, civilly and intelligently, even if you take an opposite view.

That which is not of Christ is evil, that means most of what I say and do, almost everything you say and do and most every human might say or do is evil, the world is evil entirely. [As regards elections/politics,] if I do not see, according to my best personal judgment the fruits of the Spirit in a person, by word and/or action, according to the degree of Spiritual light I possess, then I must reject it or them for the health of my own soul - not yours, not anyone elses - mine. The Bible says to do that which we believe is evil is to sin

; since I believe it is sinful to support or vote for anyone that by their words or actions seem hostile to Christ and the Church, to do otherwise for me is sin. I know you don’t seem to like that, as I believe you want me to vote your way and think your way, but since you are not the Judge of my conscience, I must answer to Him and not you.

2. You seem at times to me to be like the schoolyard bully that victimizes others and when someone stands up and punches them in the nose they go crying to momma that the one that stood up and hit them back is the bully. I just react to your words (punch back), I never initiate such exchanges. You keep making accusations against me that are, in my opinion, only a reflection as if in a mirror of your own personality.

3.

Go back to my first post responding to your comments to me - it was a very civil, rational, decent and generous reply offered in a most respectful manner and tone to your person and question; which you instantly rejected because it was not according to your will and then you started the downward trend, not I.

Leave out the snide remarks and rudeness in your comments to me and just counter what I have said and I will always reply as best I can and no rude, uncivil or unkind comments will need ever take place between us, of that I assure you. I love being challenged and when proven wrong I study the matter and try and find the truth, if I don’t feel I have been proven wrong I continue on my way with increased confidence I have made correct decisions. But, rest assured I have no problem being told I am wrong, it helps me to improve my debating skills and search for knowledge.

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No matter the age or state of health, for a military man it is always glorious to tilt at windmills, rescue a fair Dulcinea and be a gallant knight in armor in a glorious cause.

...if I do not see, according to my best personal judgment the fruits of the Spirit in a person, by word and/or action, according to the degree of Spiritual light I possess, then I must reject it

That’s pretty much what I thought.  Thanks for the answer.

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Leftie political philosophy, from a DU commenter:

It doesn’t matter if it’s true or not. RUMOR IS TRUTH. The modern laws of media hype and political warfare have a useful tenet: Repeat ANYTHING or raise false concern over ANYTHING and it is likely to be planted in the conscious/subconscious of many voters.

Neiman: I’m not responsible for your behavior.

---

Leftie political philosophy, from a DU commenter:

It doesn’t matter if it’s true or not. RUMOR IS TRUTH. The modern laws of media hype and political warfare have a useful tenet: Repeat ANYTHING or raise false concern over ANYTHING and it is likely to be planted in the conscious/subconscious of many voters.

If all men are “born sinners”, then by simple logic you will by definition be voting for the “lessor of two evils” if you plan on having a voice at all.

It’s all kind of a “glass if half empty” way of looking at it.

Lik: I cannot disagree with your logic and it seems quite reasonable, rational and a way to get everyone in the political process; but, now come on you knew a but was coming didn’t you, I have failed in my efforts if you of all people did not understand my reasoning and rationale for voting. If by listening to their speeches, examing their voting records and being aware of their private lives I cannot discern the fruit of the Spirit operating in their lives, causing them to fear God and promote Judeo-Christian values, I cannot and will not vote for that person. Although I am in an increasing minority!

On the other hand, all humans being flawed and sinners, then I look for that candidate that I believe displays the Fruit of the Spirit in their lives and message more than the other candidates and support/vote for them.

I won’t vote for any candidate I perceive that is not a genuine Christian, but among those professing Christ I will vote for the candidate I perceive to be the most committed to Christ.

65% of Americans would vote for an atheist!

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No matter the age or state of health, for a military man it is always glorious to tilt at windmills, rescue a fair Dulcinea and be a gallant knight in armor in a glorious cause.

Stay home?

Yes. That’s what they’ll do.

Maybe that could hurt…

Maybe? These are ‘geniuses’. They would probably vote in a rabbit or a bottle of pepsi if it hated fags enough. Noentheless, if they obstain, it’ll be ‘problematic’ iff (if and only if) you want Thompson. I think Thompson is… acting. Just like the ‘maxim king’ did in the eighties. Maybe he can pick some smart flunkies at the very least.

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Neiman...Christ died for the ungodly. I believe that is in Romans somewhere?

Zsa Zsa: That is a distraction, it has nothing whatsoever to do with the subject, nothing.

So He died for the ungodly, does that mean we should tolerate, support and vote for the ungodly? Does it make the ungodly that have not accepted God’s Salvation any less ungodly? He died for the ungodly, but that does not mean everyone will accept His Salvation and will not be self condemned and while in this life any less evil in their deeds, does it?

I swear that Truth has nothing whatsoever to do with this subject!

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No matter the age or state of health, for a military man it is always glorious to tilt at windmills, rescue a fair Dulcinea and be a gallant knight in armor in a glorious cause.

What was the purpose then, according to you, that He died for the unGodly?

---

Leftie political philosophy, from a DU commenter:

It doesn’t matter if it’s true or not. RUMOR IS TRUTH. The modern laws of media hype and political warfare have a useful tenet: Repeat ANYTHING or raise false concern over ANYTHING and it is likely to be planted in the conscious/subconscious of many voters.

Neiman...It has everything to do with the subject. AND just because Dobson says Fred Thompson is not a christian doesn’t mean he is not. Who says he is not? Did Fred? OR is it just Dobson speculating among friends? OR shall I say judging someone he really has no idea about? I am all for evangelicals. BUT if they are Judging without really knowing is another thing entirely. Dobson can say whatever he wants. Lucky for him he still has that right. It goes back to Judge not lest thy be judged, sayeth the Lord. Dobson doesn’t KNOW if Fred IS or IS NOT...Has he ever asked him?

He died for every human being, all being ungodly; but that death and more importantly His resurrection have no application or value for anyone rejecting Him and His Salvation. All rejecting Christ and His Salvation are dead in their sins and will not inherit eternal life.

A young man killed another man, he was convicted of murder and sentenced to death. Despite many appeals and his parents spending all they had to get his sentence reduced, he was scheduled for execution. At last after the parents appealed to the governor, he went one step further and granted the man a full pardon with immediate effect and release. The warden told the young man about the pardon, which was rescue from death; but the young man filled with guilt and remorse refused the pardon. The warden took the case to a local judge and the judge said, “A pardon is not a pardon unless it is accepted.” The young man was executed! The point is, Christ died for the ungodly, all of whom deserved death (myself more than most), and yet He by His own perfect life and death pardoned all their sins, past, present and future; but, unless they believe in Him and accept His pardon, they like the young man will not have that precious pardon applied to their account and they will instead die in their sins by their own choice.

This still has nothing to do with deciding who to support and vote for, nothing. I have made it clear on several occasions I will try and determine as best I can if the candidates have any sincere faith in Christ and I will vote for the one I believe appears to have the most fruits of the Spirit operating in their lives, which is wholly subjective on my part. If, again making a subjective analysis of their words, actions and lives I determine they do not fear God and have faith in Christ - I will not vote for them.

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No matter the age or state of health, for a military man it is always glorious to tilt at windmills, rescue a fair Dulcinea and be a gallant knight in armor in a glorious cause.

Robert108...My point was to show that Christ died for all of us ungodly creatures. AND Dobson being a supposed man of God should quit judging. Especially if he has never bothered to ask Fred himself. I know way too many so called Christians who pass judgment. AND are willing to send that sinner to hell without KNOWING what the heck they are even talking about. Some individuals consider their faith a very personally gift between God and themselves and don’t need some idiot trashing it???

Zsa Zsa:
1. Again, with all sincere and due respect to you, I don’t think the verse you mentioned has any application.
2. I cannot speak for Dobson, I don’t support his ministry; but as far as I can tell he simply advised friends he had serious doubts about the faith of Thompson, but he did not judge his salvation now or in the future. I still don’t see anything at all wrong with any Christian sharing such concerns about a political candidate or office holder. Dobson cannot command votes and he has very little, if any influence on the way people vote; yet his concerns do have value in directing others to more closely examine Thompsons words, actions and life to determine if any of Dobson’s concerns have any merit.
3. I do not understand at all why people claiming to have faith in Christ and are interested in Free political Speech would have any problem with any Christian, especially a minister sharing his concerns with friends, and maybe even thereby getting feedback that might change his mind.

I honestly believe this is much ado about absolutely nothing!

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No matter the age or state of health, for a military man it is always glorious to tilt at windmills, rescue a fair Dulcinea and be a gallant knight in armor in a glorious cause.

Neiman...Did Dobson speak with Fred Thompson before coming to this conclusion?

3. I do not understand at all why people claiming to have faith in Christ and are interested in Free political Speech would have any problem with any
Christian, especially a minister sharing his concerns with friends, and maybe even thereby getting feedback that might change his mind.

Excellent point.  My take on this is that a private statement, not meant for public consumption, is being made public and is being used to sow division among conservatives.  I think when we lose our ability to speak anonymously or privately, we have lost a great deal of freedom.  The MSM likes to take every utterance from Christian leaders that can be negatively spun in order to attack Christianity.

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Leftie political philosophy, from a DU commenter:

It doesn’t matter if it’s true or not. RUMOR IS TRUTH. The modern laws of media hype and political warfare have a useful tenet: Repeat ANYTHING or raise false concern over ANYTHING and it is likely to be planted in the conscious/subconscious of many voters.