Say Anything Blog

I laughed about this, too.  What a creative way to solve a problem!  Kudos to Sheriff Laney for some remarkable thinking!

It would be embarrassing if that trick worked more than once on the same person.

1% of Americans pay 40% of the income tax.
5% of Americans pay 60% of the income tax.
10% of Americans pay 70% of the income tax.

Yeah I thought it was very clever to.

What’s really sad is, it’s such a widely know tactic and yet, the fools still fall for it. Ditto’s on the “Well done, Cass County Sheriff’s Department”

Nothing good comes from deception, especially when it’s done by public officials.

If govt control of the economy were the way to go, the Soviet Union would be the richest, most powerful nation in the history of the world.

Thanks to Obama, America remains the only country where it is illegal to drill our own oil!

Where can I get a cushy job like that?

No Free Lunch

I see no problem with rounding up these people. And besides deception is a fairly large part of law enforcement.

And besides deception is a fairly large part of law enforcement.

Yes, and it is also the source of most of law enforcement abuses; they should be required to do actual police work, IMO.  Entrapment is slightly slimy.

If govt control of the economy were the way to go, the Soviet Union would be the richest, most powerful nation in the history of the world.

Thanks to Obama, America remains the only country where it is illegal to drill our own oil!

Damn, I agree with Robert108.

Shouldn’t people in positions of power or authority at least pretend to be honest?

“Keynes had located the fundamental defect of the free market system in its incapacity to distinguish between `speculation’ and `enterprise.’ Hence, it had a tendency to be dominated by speculators, interested not in the long-term yield on assets but only in the short-term appreciation in asset values. Their whims and caprices, causing sharp swings in asset prices, determined the magnitude of productive investment and, therefore, the level of aggregate demand, employment and output in the economy. The real lives of millions of people were determined by the whims of ‘a bunch of speculators’ under the free market system.”—Prabhat Patnaik

LOL, I can see it now, “excuse me .. Mr. Dealer, I am an undercover cop and I would like to purchase some drugs from you. Oh, and to be completely honest with you, I intend on arresting you after you sell them to me”
Yes sirrrreeeee… that should bring ‘em in by the droves

Good point Anna, undercover cops are dishonest too. My mummy always said: “No matter what other people do AV, you are always responsible for your own actions”. 

“Keynes had located the fundamental defect of the free market system in its incapacity to distinguish between `speculation’ and `enterprise.’ Hence, it had a tendency to be dominated by speculators, interested not in the long-term yield on assets but only in the short-term appreciation in asset values. Their whims and caprices, causing sharp swings in asset prices, determined the magnitude of productive investment and, therefore, the level of aggregate demand, employment and output in the economy. The real lives of millions of people were determined by the whims of ‘a bunch of speculators’ under the free market system.”—Prabhat Patnaik

The Ozzy forum was full of people complaining about this as if they were arresting innocent people. Go PDL Productions!

Yes AV, I bet your Mum also mentioned ...you be a good honest person and you won’t have to worry about those undercover cops trying to catch the bad guys

What a tricky way to con people into thinking there going to have a good time, and watch a concert. Is that illegal in anyway?

What a tricky way to con people into thinking there going to have a good time, and watch a concert. Is that illegal in anyway?

Not at all.  On the other hand what they were doing to get the warrents and such issued against them wasn’t legal.

I don’t see where getting fugitives from justice off the street (or at least in the legal system) is a bad thing.

1% of Americans pay 40% of the income tax.
5% of Americans pay 60% of the income tax.
10% of Americans pay 70% of the income tax.

Police officers shouldn’t lie?  In some ways I guess that’s a good policy, but what about undercover officers?  Should an undercover officer, infiltrating an organized crime organization, be truthful about his background?

I think there are boundaries when it comes to cops lying, but reasonable people can draw those boundaries without needing to favor any extremes.  The little subterfuge executed by the deputies described above rounded up people who were already wanted for valid legal reasons and done so in an efficient and effect manner that not only probably saved us some tax dollars, but also kept all involved a little safer.

I think objecting to this is pretty absurd.

The purpose of government shouldn’t be to do good, but simply to refrain from doing evil.

I think it was great because it cleared the docket of outstanding warrents. I think its great to round up some dirt bag criminals that owe their debt to society.

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Goon’s North Dakota Red Neck
Goon’s World

Fascism in action. Homegrown American style.

Fascism?  Getting people with legally-issued warrants to show up so they can be arrested is fascism?

Do you even know the meaning of the word?

The purpose of government shouldn’t be to do good, but simply to refrain from doing evil.

Fascism?  Getting people with legally-issued warrants to show up so they can be arrested is fascism?

Do you even know the meaning of the word?

Yeah apparently its facisim if your enforce the rules you have on the book, ah yeah that right, Joshie must be one of these defeatocrats that doesn’t want the law enforced, that wants illegals to have the right to citizenship and drivers liscenses… How about people that are a threat to society are finally arrested and taken off the street. All the police are doing is serving warrents, they can do that or knock their door down.

Check out:
Goon’s North Dakota Red Neck
Goon’s World

If people want to dispute any of the individual charges these people were being arrested for, I’m all ears.  But a warrant is a warrant.  Police should bring wanted people to justice, and this little ruse seems like a safe and effective way of doing it.

I don’t see what the problem is.

The purpose of government shouldn’t be to do good, but simply to refrain from doing evil.

Yeah how dare the cops serve warrents. I think its funny…

Check out:
Goon’s North Dakota Red Neck
Goon’s World

I’m probably a little late with this comment, but it seems to me that the sting was about strategy, not deception.

This type of ruse has been used by police for years to gather up all those having outstanding warrants. I’ve seen everythiung from cruise giveaways to big-screen television giveaways to rope them in.

“Over the last 15 months, we’ve traveled to every corner of the United States. I’ve now been in 57 states? I think one left to go.”

I don’t see what the problem is.

You can’t see it because there isn’t one!
Claiming cops are dishonest in the way they catch criminals is like saying sports players are dishonest when they steal a base, or fake a play in football. It’s all in the name of the game including law enforcement. After all everyone knows, if ya gonna play ..ya gonna pay!

To me, it goes to the Fourth Amendment, specifically “probable cause”.  If attending a concert is probable cause for being arrested, then it’s OK.  Real police work would be to hunt them down and arrest them.  Nothing complicated there, simple laziness, which justifies deception.

If govt control of the economy were the way to go, the Soviet Union would be the richest, most powerful nation in the history of the world.

Thanks to Obama, America remains the only country where it is illegal to drill our own oil!

Robert, I fail to see where probable cause comes in to play.  A warrant was already outstanding for these people.  The local police officers went through their list of outstanding warrants, invited those with warrants to attend, and then arrested them when they showed up.

If there wasn’t probable cause, there’d be no warrant.

The purpose of government shouldn’t be to do good, but simply to refrain from doing evil.

Rob: Why didn’t they just go arrest them, then?  Why the clown act; publicity?

If govt control of the economy were the way to go, the Soviet Union would be the richest, most powerful nation in the history of the world.

Thanks to Obama, America remains the only country where it is illegal to drill our own oil!

Rob: Why didn’t they just go arrest them, then?  Why the clown act; publicity?

For one thing, a lot of these people won’t open their doors when the police show up, and cops aren’t real keen on kicking down doors for relatively minor warrants.  Also, a lot of them are living with friends or family who claim that the person in question isn’t there.

Plus, home arrests can be dangerous.  If the person freaks out, people get hurt.  This little ruse was effective in rounding a bunch of these people up without all the hassle of hunting them down (which costs us tax dollars, I’d add) and it’s safer for all involved.

Your objection to this seems baseless.

The purpose of government shouldn’t be to do good, but simply to refrain from doing evil.

Robert,
What do you think is more efficient: tricking people with warrants into turning themselves in at one gathering spot - or- using X hundred police man-hours to surveil potential residences for those with warrants (not exactly the most stable bunch), arrest them singly, and process them singly. Pretty easy answer really.

And sure, some of it is for PR - cops want to remind people that they’re out there doing what they’re paid to do.

“Over the last 15 months, we’ve traveled to every corner of the United States. I’ve now been in 57 states? I think one left to go.”

Rob,

Probable cause: The warrant itself is the probable cause. The PC has to detailed on the officer’s affidavit for the warant. The affidavit is then reviewed by a judge and if he finds sufficient PC then he issues the warrant.

Therefore no further PC needs to be established either for approach or arrest.

And, r108 said:

To me, it goes to the Fourth Amendment, specifically “probable cause”.  If attending a concert is probable cause for being arrested, then it’s OK.  Real police work would be to hunt them down and arrest them.  Nothing complicated there, simple laziness, which justifies deception.

Attending a concerts isn’t PC. Having a warrant is. And it isn’t laziness or the need for publicity. Why waste hundreds of man hours tracking down relatively minor offenders when you can get them all to come to you? Simple business decision with a comic touch.

The future ain’t what it used to be…..

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Your objection to this seems baseless.

Hardly.  I think deception and dishonesty in the name of “police work” is always something citizens should be concerned about.  If the justification is to save money, why not just get them in a room and pipe in some poison gas?s We eliminate the criminals from society for just pennies.  Everybody wins.  /sarcasm

If govt control of the economy were the way to go, the Soviet Union would be the richest, most powerful nation in the history of the world.

Thanks to Obama, America remains the only country where it is illegal to drill our own oil!

Hoss: If efficiency is your goal, refer to my previous comment.  When you sanction this type of behavior on the part of the police, because it seems to be justified in this case, where does it stop?

If govt control of the economy were the way to go, the Soviet Union would be the richest, most powerful nation in the history of the world.

Thanks to Obama, America remains the only country where it is illegal to drill our own oil!

You’re right 108. Deception is bad. Honesty and touchy feely communication with criminals works everytime.

Hey! I know! Why didn’t the Fargo Police just ride through town with a megaphone saying, “Okay, all you guys with warrants…come in today and we’ll get this all taken care of.”

I’m sure that they would have been flooded with people just dying to clear their names and turn their lives around.

Take a reality pill, 108.

The future ain’t what it used to be…..

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While certainly not every action the police take needs to be overt, and the police will from time to time need to be clever to “get their man,” they ought to remember that if a perp cannot trust the man in blue, neither can a jury.

I don’t know that this case violates the principle; as long as there was a party involved, it’s not a flat out lie.  However, people ought to be careful about letting police cross a line into flat out lying.

On another note, it’s interesting that apparently a large portion of child support defaulters are metalheads.  Might be a lesson there somewhere, though I’m not quite sure what it is.  I grew up listening to metal, but thankfully the only child support I pay is to my wife, who abundantly makes it worth my while.

You’re right 108. Deception is bad. Honesty and touchy feely communication with criminals works everytime.

Those are my only two choices???  How about real police work?

With all the problems with police corruption and criminality across our fine nation, you would think that this kind of thing wouldn’t get publicized, at least, but never underestimate the arrogance that goes with absolute power.

If govt control of the economy were the way to go, the Soviet Union would be the richest, most powerful nation in the history of the world.

Thanks to Obama, America remains the only country where it is illegal to drill our own oil!

How about real police work?

Hot news flash….putting multiple wanted people in jail IS real police work. Just because Officer Friendly wasn’t going door-to-door looking for them doesn’t change that.

And Bubba….the Supreme Court has long since decided that deception can be part of police work. I’ve solved many cases by telling the suspect that I knew more than I did and playing it up until he puked all over himself (figuratively, not literally). I was, in your words, “flat out lying” to the suspect and I’ve done it many times.

Do you think that’s wrong?

The future ain’t what it used to be…..

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Two scenarios to illustrate:

Cop: You know, Mr. Crook, we think you pulled those other burglaries, too, but we canb’t prove it. Is there anything you want to tell us? No? Oh, well. I guess Mrs. Jones won’t ever get her great-grandmother’s jewelery back. Have a nice day.

Or:

Cop: Okay, Mr. Crook, you’ve told me what you know now let me tell you what I know….I’ve got your prints from two of those other burglaries and guess what? That house on 8th street, the one with the convenience store across the street? You’re on their outside camera. It reaches that far. I gonna get some coffee. think about what you want to tell me while I’m gone. Wnat some?

Yeah…it’s lying, but it works. Personally I would have told me to pound sand, but you’d be surprised how many will give it up when you play that way.

I know…bad, bad cops. Getting people’s stuff back or finding out who robbed them by lying. The nerve.

The future ain’t what it used to be…..

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However, people ought to be careful about letting police cross a line into flat out lying.

Undercover police officers lie.  Are you suggesting that my father, who was a vice cop for a time, should have told the people he was buying cocaine from that he was a cop?

The purpose of government shouldn’t be to do good, but simply to refrain from doing evil.

Another time I heard that they sent the people wit the warrants a letter saying they are receiving a free tv.  And almost all of them showed up to get their tvs, but not to court.  This is an ingeneous way of catching those that have warrants on them.

Have you ever heard about how cops say that your pal has ratted you out and then get someone to confess.  That is also sohjonest, but it get the truth out of suspects.

Unless you don;t have a warrant or are a criminal you have no worries. 

Just like the warrantless wire taps.  Unless yuou are talking to a terrorists in Pakistan, Afghanistan or Iraq you have nothing to worry about.

Just like the warrantless wire taps.

Nope.  Unlike this stunt, the so-called “warrentless wiretaps”(actually microwave monitoring) don’t involve deception at all.  Bad analogy.

If govt control of the economy were the way to go, the Soviet Union would be the richest, most powerful nation in the history of the world.

Thanks to Obama, America remains the only country where it is illegal to drill our own oil!

Are you suggesting that my father, who was
a vice cop for a time, should have told the people he was buying cocaine from that he was a cop?

I’m not suggesting anything about your father, obviously.  If he had placed a deceptive ad in the newspaper for the purpose of luring cocaine dealers to come to a place under false pretenses, that would be analogus.

If govt control of the economy were the way to go, the Soviet Union would be the richest, most powerful nation in the history of the world.

Thanks to Obama, America remains the only country where it is illegal to drill our own oil!

If attending a concert is probable cause for being arrested, then it’s OK.

LOL, perhaps they neglected to read the fine print:
Some provisos may apply to the recipient of this promotional give away

Pil: I guess the end justifies any means.  If we knew who the criminals were beforehand, it would be simple.  However, some doubt is involved, which is why we have a justice system.  Otherwise, we would just round up all the criminals and dispose of them in some way or the other.  Are we sure that 100% of the people caught by this type of operation are guilty?  Why have courts?

If govt control of the economy were the way to go, the Soviet Union would be the richest, most powerful nation in the history of the world.

Thanks to Obama, America remains the only country where it is illegal to drill our own oil!

Rob: The probable cause enters in with the selection of who gets invited to the event.  Issuing the invitation presumes guilt.

If govt control of the economy were the way to go, the Soviet Union would be the richest, most powerful nation in the history of the world.

Thanks to Obama, America remains the only country where it is illegal to drill our own oil!

The probable cause enters in with the selection of who gets invited to the event.  Issuing the invitation presumes guilt.

These people had pre-existing warrants, which in turn instructs law enforcement to take them into custody.

Warrants do not imply guilt.  Warrants imply probable cause for arrest.  Meaning the officers had all the cause they needed to make the arrests.

If you want to quibble about probable cause, tell me which one of the warrants was incorrectly issued.

The purpose of government shouldn’t be to do good, but simply to refrain from doing evil.

These people had pre-existing warrants, which in turn instructs law enforcement to take them into custody.

Absolutely; it did not, however, instruct to invite them to a concert.  It instructed them to go arrest them.

If you want to quibble about probable cause, tell me which one of the warrants was incorrectly issued.

I don’t regard wanting law enforcement to be honest as “quibbling”, and my issue isn’t about the warrants themselves, but the deception involved in rounding up the suspects, as I have clearly stated a number of times.

BTW, Rob, this technique is widely used in the War on Drugs.  Do you approve of it when it’s used to round up pot smokers?

If govt control of the economy were the way to go, the Soviet Union would be the richest, most powerful nation in the history of the world.

Thanks to Obama, America remains the only country where it is illegal to drill our own oil!

Rob: Explain this, please: Martha Stewart and Scooter Libby were convicted of lying to law enforcement; why should the police have a lower standard of honesty than private citizens?

If govt control of the economy were the way to go, the Soviet Union would be the richest, most powerful nation in the history of the world.

Thanks to Obama, America remains the only country where it is illegal to drill our own oil!

Pick me Pick me.

They were convicted on a stupid law that shouldn’t be on the books.

1% of Americans pay 40% of the income tax.
5% of Americans pay 60% of the income tax.
10% of Americans pay 70% of the income tax.

Robert, lying in and of itself isn’t a crime.  If I told you that the sky is pink…I couldn’t be arrested for that because no damage was done.

Now if I lied under oath and sent you to prison because of that lie, that’s a crime.  Or if I lied to people about a product I was selling, that’s a crime.

There is nothing illegal about tricking people with outstanding warrants into showing up some place so they can be legally arrested.

Absolutely; it did not, however, instruct to invite them to a concert.  It instructed them to go arrest them.

I wasn’t aware that warrants were in the habit of instructing the manner of arrest.  You should maybe try actually knowing what you’re talking about.

I don’t regard wanting law enforcement to be honest as “quibbling”, and my issue isn’t about the warrants themselves, but the deception involved in rounding up the suspects, as I have clearly stated a number of times.

You questioned the probable cause.  I pointed out that the probable cause was undoubtedly established in the warrants, and asked you which warrants you felt were incorrectly issued.  Obviously, you have no knowledge about any of the warrants, which makes me wonder why you were talking about probable cause.

Again, you should actually try to know more about how this process works.

BTW, Rob, this technique is widely used in the War on Drugs.  Do you approve of it when it’s used to round up pot smokers?

Given that smoking pot is currently illegal, yes I would wholeheartedly support this tactic as a way to round-up people with outstanding warrants relating to marijuana use.

Though that doesn’t mean that I can’t also feel that marijuana should be legal.

The purpose of government shouldn’t be to do good, but simply to refrain from doing evil.

There is nothing illegal about tricking people with outstanding warrants into showing up some place so they can be legally arrested.

I agree that is the current state of things, but it doesn’t mean that I can’t take the position that it should be illegal.

I repeat: the warrants obviously establish probable cause to arrest them, but not necessarily to invite them to a concert.  Thought I was clear about that.
You seem to confuse their criminal status with an excuse to use deception to arrest them. If they are criminals, why not just go arrest them?  Why wait until you can pull some sort of stunt?  What about the crimes they may commit while this stunt is set up?  Did they all commit their crimes at the same time?  You also assume that all the warrants will prove to be justified, even though there hasn’t been adjudication.  What do you do with those who might bew “rounded up” unjustly?  When they sue for damages and collect, what does that do to the cost factor?

If govt control of the economy were the way to go, the Soviet Union would be the richest, most powerful nation in the history of the world.

Thanks to Obama, America remains the only country where it is illegal to drill our own oil!

I don’t regard wanting law enforcement to be honest as “quibbling”, and my issue isn’t about the warrants themselves, but the deception involved in rounding up the suspects, as I have clearly stated a number of times.
BTW, Rob, this technique is widely used in the War on Drugs.  Do you approve of it when it’s used to round up pot smokers?

Robert these types of tactics are used all the time they are pretty common.

Check out:
Goon’s North Dakota Red Neck
Goon’s World

Robert, lying in and of itself isn’t a crime.

Not true.  Martha Stewart did time for lying to an FBI officer.  Scooter Libby faces prison time for “lying” to federal investigators, which damaged no one, even if he did lie.  In my State, it’s a crime to lie to a DMV employee.  You are wrong on that one.

If govt control of the economy were the way to go, the Soviet Union would be the richest, most powerful nation in the history of the world.

Thanks to Obama, America remains the only country where it is illegal to drill our own oil!

Robert these types of tactics are used all the time they are pretty common.

Exactly.  It’s also common for people to invade our country from the south, and to set up shop here and exploit our prosperity and welfare programs.  Does that make it OK?

If govt control of the economy were the way to go, the Soviet Union would be the richest, most powerful nation in the history of the world.

Thanks to Obama, America remains the only country where it is illegal to drill our own oil!

I repeat: the warrants obviously establish probable cause to arrest them, but not necessarily to invite them to a concert.  Thought I was clear about that.

You were, and I was clear on the fact that A) warrants have never dictated the manner of the arrest and B) you obviously have little idea as to how this stuff actually works.

You should see if your local police department has a ride-along program for citizens or something.  You may find it instructive.

You seem to confuse their criminal status with an excuse to use deception to arrest them. If they are criminals, why not just go arrest them?  Why wait until you can pull some sort of stunt?

First, they’re not all criminals I imagine.  Some have yet to be tried and convicted, I’m sure. so you’re jumping to conclusions and again demonstrating your lack of grasp on this subject.  Second, the deception is necessary because simply going and arresting them hasn’t worked.  It’s not like these officers were like “We could go and arrest these people, but let’s wait for that Ozzy concert so we can lie to them and stuff.”  I’d be willing to bet that they’d tried to arrest every one of these people before, but were unsuccessful.  So this ruse was a different way of going about it that proved to be very successful.

You also assume that all the warrants will prove to be justified, even though there hasn’t been adjudication.  What do you do with those who might bew “rounded up” unjustly?  When they sue for damages and collect, what does that do to the cost factor?

Whether or not the warrants were properly issued is a separate matter entirely.  If they were improperly issued, there would be lawsuits even if the officers had picked these people up in a more traditional manner.

The purpose of government shouldn’t be to do good, but simply to refrain from doing evil.

Not true.  Martha Stewart did time for lying to an FBI officer.  Scooter Libby faces prison time for “lying” to federal investigators, which damaged no one, even if he did lie.  In my State, it’s a crime to lie to a DMV employee.  You are wrong on that one.

I’m not wrong at all, actually.  For lying to be illegal, there usually needs to be an intent to defraud.  Such as lying to a DMV employee about your SSN so you can get a license as an illegal.  Or lying under oath to mislead a jury/prosecutor/judge.

Lying to a group of fugitives to get them to show up somewhere so they can be arrested is not only not illegal, it’s beneficial to all involved.

The purpose of government shouldn’t be to do good, but simply to refrain from doing evil.

This is like lying to your kids about Santa Clause

1% of Americans pay 40% of the income tax.
5% of Americans pay 60% of the income tax.
10% of Americans pay 70% of the income tax.

What are you trying to say Whistler… that there really isn’t a Santa Claus?

If lying and dishonesty by law enforcement personnel was to be made illegal, then every sting operation, every undercover buy from pot and smack to AK-47s and Stinger missiles, every cop posing as a hit man for hire, every sort of law enforcement infiltration of bad guys doing bad stuff, all would be illegal.

And that’s just plain silly.

“Capitalism is optimism monetized.”

For lying to be illegal, there usually
needs to be an intent to defraud. Wrong.  The act of lying itself is the crime.  Of course, as in the case of both Martha and Scooter, it is usually used selectively for political purposes, but it’s still against the law to lie to a law enforcement officer. Such as lying to a DMV employee about your SSN so you can get a license as an illegal. Or lying under oath to mislead a jury/prosecutor/judge.

If govt control of the economy were the way to go, the Soviet Union would be the richest, most powerful nation in the history of the world.

Thanks to Obama, America remains the only country where it is illegal to drill our own oil!

Second, the deception is necessary because simply going and arresting them hasn’t worked.

This justification speaks more to the competency of the police in question.  It’s like a failed govt program demanding more money.  The incompetent police want more power to do their job, because they can’t get it done by the usual means.

If govt control of the economy were the way to go, the Soviet Union would be the richest, most powerful nation in the history of the world.

Thanks to Obama, America remains the only country where it is illegal to drill our own oil!

...every sting operation, every undercover buy from pot and smack to AK-47s and Stinger missiles, every cop posing as a hit man for hire, every sort of law enforcement infiltration of bad guys doing bad
stuff, all would be illegal.

I don’t believe any of the warrants in question were for any of those crimes.

If govt control of the economy were the way to go, the Soviet Union would be the richest, most powerful nation in the history of the world.

Thanks to Obama, America remains the only country where it is illegal to drill our own oil!

Are we sure that 100% of the people caught by this type of operation are guilty?

No. But they sure had warrants ordering their arrest for an offense. It’s up to the courts to determine if they’re guilty. It’s up to the police to arrest them for sufficient cause. A signed warrant is that cause.

108, you’re attacking the legitimate use of a tactic.

The future ain’t what it used to be…..

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I’m confused.  How did the police sort out the ones with outstanding warrants from the rest of the crowd?  If they ID everyone as they came in, then I would question the legality of this operation.

One of the most important talents for success in politics is the ability to make utter nonsense sound not only plausible but inspiring. Barack Obama has that talent. We will be lucky if we escape the catastrophes into which other countries have been led by leaders with that same charismatic talent.
-Thomas Sowell

108, you’re attacking the legitimate use of a tactic.

No, I’m questioning its legitimacy on ethical and Constitutional grounds.  I have questioned its use under Fourth Amendment grounds, and also on the grounds that it represents behavior that would be illegal and punishable if done by a private citizen.

If govt control of the economy were the way to go, the Soviet Union would be the richest, most powerful nation in the history of the world.

Thanks to Obama, America remains the only country where it is illegal to drill our own oil!

How did the police sort out the ones with outstanding warrants from the rest of the crowd?

Exactly.  It goes to the selection process.

If govt control of the economy were the way to go, the Soviet Union would be the richest, most powerful nation in the history of the world.

Thanks to Obama, America remains the only country where it is illegal to drill our own oil!

Rob, Pilgrim, I don’t know exactly where the line is drawn, but I do know that it is.  In my town, a case against an accomplice to murder was thrown out (and rightly so) because the interrogator had promised the man he wouldn’t be prosecuted, and then turned around with the evidence obtained to prosecute the man.

So in reality, we cannot assume that the courts give carte blanche to the police to lie to suspects.  Again, if I cannot trust the police if I’m being questioned, tell me why I should trust their testimony if I’m in the jury box.

Now this doesn’t mean that the police need to show their hand before playing poker, so to speak; it means that deliberate misrepresentations of the truth need to be avoided. 

Using the example of the burglar, we would have to assume that Pilgrim had some evidence that would tie the man to the crimes—why not simply mention that the marks from the burglary tools looked substantially the same and so on?

BB introduces the next stage of this argument, which is what is the ultimate outcome of this type of tactic?  What is the conviction rate? How many of those cases are pleaded out, with no jail time?  How many are not convicted due to bad police work?  In other words, what’s the cost/benefit calculation on this tactic?  Good defense lawyers make a living off this kind of police behavior.  The public is not served if these alleged criminals are not actually kept off the streets, is it?

If govt control of the economy were the way to go, the Soviet Union would be the richest, most powerful nation in the history of the world.

Thanks to Obama, America remains the only country where it is illegal to drill our own oil!

I have no idea why you’re having such an issue with this Robert. Warrants are issued giving the police the power to arrest and detain someone, and guess what, most of these people aren’t our most stable citizens. So, instead of x number of cops sitting outside the 3 residences that Joe Blow is known to bounce between, they send 3 Ozzy concert invitations to these residences in his name and let the person come to them. Don’t feel too sorry for someone that refuses to show up (many times repeatedly) to court as so ordered by the court.

It’s really a matter of efficiency, and I’d much rather have the cops out on the street patrolling than out trying to round-up these dumbasses that don’t show up for court when they’re suppose to.

How did the police sort out the ones with outstanding warrants from the rest of the crowd?

They usually have one meeting point for the guys to show up to “claim” their free tickets…they don’t ID the whole crowd.

“Over the last 15 months, we’ve traveled to every corner of the United States. I’ve now been in 57 states? I think one left to go.”

They usually have one meeting point for the guys to show up to “claim” their free tickets…they don’t ID the whole crowd.

Thanks hoss, that gets away from the random search which I believe is unconstitutional.  But if this is the way the warrants were served, then this is clearly entrapment which almost always involves legal questions on constitutional rights.

One of the most important talents for success in politics is the ability to make utter nonsense sound not only plausible but inspiring. Barack Obama has that talent. We will be lucky if we escape the catastrophes into which other countries have been led by leaders with that same charismatic talent.
-Thomas Sowell

I have no idea why you’re having such an issue with this Robert. Because you haven’t read and understood what I’ve written, I guess. Warrants are issued giving the police the power to arrest and detain someone, and guess what, most of these people aren’t our most stable citizens. Agreed, but that’s not my point at all. So, instead of x number of cops sitting outside the 3 residences that Joe Blow is known to bounce between, they send 3 Ozzy concert invitations to these residences in his name and let the person come to them. Don’t feel too sorry for someone that refuses to show up (many times repeatedly) to court as so ordered by the court. I don’t feel sorry for the criminals(so you are wrong there), nor do I feel sorry for the police for having to do actual work to catch criminals.

It’s really a matter of efficiency, If that’s your standard, then why not just shoot or gas them?  That would be very efficient. and I’d much rather have the cops out on the street patrolling than out trying to round-up these dumbasses that don’t show up for court when they’re suppose to. What about the other end of the process, where a lot of criminals get cut loose, do no time or plead out, due to inadequate police procedure in apprehending them?  That doesn’t get the publicity this sort of stunt gets, but it directly impacts the public safety.

If govt control of the economy were the way to go, the Soviet Union would be the richest, most powerful nation in the history of the world.

Thanks to Obama, America remains the only country where it is illegal to drill our own oil!

But if this is the way the warrants were served, then this is clearly entrapment which almost always involves legal questions on constitutional rights.

Entrapment?

My goodness.  Remind me never to ask you guys for legal advice.

Bubba:

if I cannot trust the police if I’m being questioned, tell me why I should trust their testimony if I’m in the jury box.

Now this doesn’t mean that the police need to show their hand before playing poker, so to speak; it means that deliberate misrepresentations of the truth need to be avoided. 

You can trust an officer’s testimony in court…because they’re under oath.  But really, there are good cops and bad cops.  Some cops do, unfortunately, lie even in court.

When it’s important, cops shouldn’t lie.  But is it really important that cops not trick fugitives into turning themselves in?

Let’s have some common sense here.

The purpose of government shouldn’t be to do good, but simply to refrain from doing evil.

Let’s have some common sense here.

I agree; isn’t it common sense to evaluate how well this tactic works?  It obviously works to pump up arrest statistics, but how about the actual conviction rate compared to real police work?  If society is less safe in the final analysis, this practice should be discontinued, no matter what sort of headlines it garners in the first place.

If govt control of the economy were the way to go, the Soviet Union would be the richest, most powerful nation in the history of the world.

Thanks to Obama, America remains the only country where it is illegal to drill our own oil!

So…y’all are saying that if they caught the rapist of your daughter/wife/gf/significant other via this “ozzy warrant fest” you would stand up in court and say “STOP..let the poor sucker go, you entrapped him”?

Those people weren’t rapists, so, no, I’m not saying that.

If govt control of the economy were the way to go, the Soviet Union would be the richest, most powerful nation in the history of the world.

Thanks to Obama, America remains the only country where it is illegal to drill our own oil!

Not only that, but if your horrible hypothetical were true, I would hope that the police didn’t screw up and end up putting the rapist back on the street due to some clown stunt.  I want them to do the proper police work to ensure that he gets properly convicted and punished.  None of the “going free on a technicality” crap.

If govt control of the economy were the way to go, the Soviet Union would be the richest, most powerful nation in the history of the world.

Thanks to Obama, America remains the only country where it is illegal to drill our own oil!

There isn’t a single thing wrong with this that I can think of.  I don’t see it as a constitutional concern.  Nor do I think the people/person questioning it’s validity have a clue how the process works.  There have been a lot of legal terms tossed around but those against this type of tactic don’t seem to understand their definitions. 

In addition, “abuse of power” has been brought up as an argument.  Well, this isn’t an “abuse of power”.  Instead, it’s a very normal, inconsequential, constitutionally insignificant occurrence. 

If you really want to talk about legislative/police abuse of power and constitutional gerymandering, let’s discuss the erosion of “Knock and Announce”, pressing the limits of DUI “checkpoints” and criminal “profiling”.  THOSE are constitutionally questionable.  Wrangling people with outstanding warrants (ISSUED BY A JUDGE) to save the taxpayers a chunk of change is a yawner.

Rob, my take is simple; if the reason I can “trust” a police officer is that they’re under oath, then I won’t trust them.  If they don’t develop the habit of honesty in their daily lives, then that’s not going to change because they put their hand on a Bible and said a few words.

Don’t we conservatives believe that character counts?

Rob, my take is simple; if the reason I can “trust” a police officer is that they’re under oath, then I won’t trust them.  If they don’t develop the habit of honesty in their daily lives, then that’s not going to change because they put their hand on a Bible and said a few words.

Don’t we conservatives believe that character counts?

Of course character counts, but are you honestly trying to tell me that tricking a fugitive into showing up so he can be arrested is the moral equivalent of lying on the stand so that you get falsely convicted?

Don’t we conservatives believe in common sense?

The purpose of government shouldn’t be to do good, but simply to refrain from doing evil.

Those people weren’t rapists, so, no, I’m not saying that.

Ooooh.. I see, so it’s a matter of what degree of crime committed, as to whether this strategy is ethical?

Well, I noted above that if there was genuinely a party when the suspects got there, there was no flat out lie, so obviously no.

However, if it’s a clearer lie, I would say that I’d have trouble believing the officer who was found to have made that lie, or the department to which that officer belonged.

As I noted above, it isn’t an academic exercise for me, as an accomplice to murder was freed on grounds like these in my town, and the police chief was outraged that the judge would have taken the lie of his officer at face value in throwing out the case.

So I’ve got at least two men in blue in my town whose testimony I’ve got to take with a BIG grain of salt if I ever get called as a juror.

It’s common sense, Rob.  If a man lies in one situation, he’s more likely to do so in another.

Ooooh.. I see, so it’s a matter of what degree of crime committed, as to whether this strategy is ethical?

Wrong.  I’m saying that even your extreme and disgusting hypothetical doesn’t justify unethical police behavior.

If govt control of the economy were the way to go, the Soviet Union would be the richest, most powerful nation in the history of the world.

Thanks to Obama, America remains the only country where it is illegal to drill our own oil!

I think a lot of you are closet hypocrites. LOL!
You know darn well, if the criminal they happened to catch via this strategy had committed his offense against you, you wouldn’t complain at all. Course, if you say you’d still complain…then you’re crazier than I thought you were in the first place and such is life!

Course, if you say you’d still complain…then you’re crazier than I thought you were in the first place and such is life!

There’s no complaining here, btw; only criticism of questionable police methods that involve deception and the possibility of setting criminals free due to that deception.  Anyone who doesn’t pay attention to whether or not the criminals get locked up is the crazy one.

If govt control of the economy were the way to go, the Soviet Union would be the richest, most powerful nation in the history of the world.

Thanks to Obama, America remains the only country where it is illegal to drill our own oil!

Robert, lying in and of itself isn’t a crime. 

If lying was a crime the clintons would have been put in jail a long time ago…

Check out:
Goon’s North Dakota Red Neck
Goon’s World

goon: While it’s a crime for a citizen to lie to law enforcement, it isn’t a crime for law enforcement to lie to a citizen.  Curious double standard, which essentially assumes that every citizen is guilty of something.  I have known a lot of law enforcement personnel who had exactly that attitude toward the public.  They consider themselves elite and above the law.  Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

If govt control of the economy were the way to go, the Soviet Union would be the richest, most powerful nation in the history of the world.

Thanks to Obama, America remains the only country where it is illegal to drill our own oil!

Entrapment?
My goodness.  Remind me never to ask you guys for legal advice.

Rob, you don’t think that some of the defense attorneys won’t make that claim?

One of the most important talents for success in politics is the ability to make utter nonsense sound not only plausible but inspiring. Barack Obama has that talent. We will be lucky if we escape the catastrophes into which other countries have been led by leaders with that same charismatic talent.
-Thomas Sowell

You know darn well, if the criminal they happened to catch via this strategy had committed his offense against you, you wouldn’t complain at all

What happened to implied innocents, you know until you’re proven to be guilty.  Not sure I’d want you on my jury, Anna.

One of the most important talents for success in politics is the ability to make utter nonsense sound not only plausible but inspiring. Barack Obama has that talent. We will be lucky if we escape the catastrophes into which other countries have been led by leaders with that same charismatic talent.
-Thomas Sowell

Rob, you don’t think that some of the defense attorneys won’t make that claim?

Exactly.  There are plenty of defense attorneys that make a good living from this kind of police behavior.

If govt control of the economy were the way to go, the Soviet Union would be the richest, most powerful nation in the history of the world.

Thanks to Obama, America remains the only country where it is illegal to drill our own oil!

The outstanding warrant is a legal court issued document. There wouldn’t be a warrant out for their arrest if there wasn’t enough evidence to issue one. Innocent or guilty isn’t being decided with the warrant or their arrest. That is what a trial is for and is a complete separate issue from a warranted arrest.

The outstanding warrant is a legal court issued document. There wouldn’t be a warrant out for their arrest if there wasn’t enough evidence to issue
one. Innocent or guilty isn’t being decided with the warrant or their arrest. That is what a trial is for and is a complete separate issue from a warranted arrest.

True, but irrelevant to the argument here.  Everyone concedes that the warrants are legal; the question is about the ethics and practicality of the method of arrest.

If govt control of the economy were the way to go, the Soviet Union would be the richest, most powerful nation in the history of the world.

Thanks to Obama, America remains the only country where it is illegal to drill our own oil!

To the people who are objecting to the sting: Do you expect the Highway Patrol to sit on the shoulder of the road, with the cop car visible for a mile in either direction, before they can start using a radar gun to catch speeders?

Morons who ignore court warrants deserve what they get. Although if I were Ozzy Osbourne, I’d be hacked off at the idea of the cops piggybacking their scam on my event.

To the people who are objecting to the sting: Do you expect the Highway Patrol to sit on the shoulder of the road, with the cop car visible for a mile in either direction, before they can start using a radar gun to catch speeders?

Fine example; a visible cop car causes people to slow down, resulting in no speeders; this is a proven fact.  However, it doesn’t generate the revenue that hiding from them does, although a visible car cuts down on dangerous driving, while hiding doesn’t.  What the hell; who cares about the public, anyway?  Cops getting more citations and arrests is the really important thing, isn’t it?  /sarcasm

If govt control of the economy were the way to go, the Soviet Union would be the richest, most powerful nation in the history of the world.

Thanks to Obama, America remains the only country where it is illegal to drill our own oil!

I can see everyone’s point, but sheesh… to me,  it’s awfully hard not to want to catch the bad guys any way ya can.

DW, I think r108 has a point about the cop car.  The goal should be public safety, not issuing as many citations as possible.  So maybe bad example.

But r108’s argument against the round-up that’s the topic at hand is still absurd.  But we’ll have to agree to disagree, robert.  I just think you’re wrong, and pretty naive about the realities of law enforcement.

Again, I’d suggest finding out if your local PD has a ride-along program.  I think you’d find it informative.

The purpose of government shouldn’t be to do good, but simply to refrain from doing evil.

But r108’s argument against the round-up that’s the topic at hand is still absurd.

So, a reasonable disagreement with a certain police tactic is “absurd”?  I’m still waiting for the outcome of the sting in terms of convictions and actual jail time, as opposed to pleas and not guilty verdicts due to technicalities as a result of the method used.  I don’t think that’s absurd at all.  It goes to the real effectiveness of this technique.
Thanks for the patronizing remarks, but I’m pretty familiar with law enforcement, good and bad.

It has been proved many times that a visible patrol car is the best deterrent to dangerous driving.  Unfortunately, most police agencies are more interested in revenue and in padding their arrest records than in keeping the public safe from the bad guys.

If govt control of the economy were the way to go, the Soviet Union would be the richest, most powerful nation in the history of the world.

Thanks to Obama, America remains the only country where it is illegal to drill our own oil!

So, a reasonable disagreement with a certain police tactic is “absurd”?

Robert, I think your disagreement here is far from reasonable.

I’m still waiting for the outcome of the sting in terms of convictions and actual jail time, as opposed to pleas and not guilty verdicts due to technicalities as a result of the method used.

I’m willing to guess that the “conviction” rate will be near 100%, and that there will be no challenges to the tactics used in the arrest because the tactic itself wasn’t against the law.

Unless you would like to demonstrate which law, specifically, was broken by the Cass County Sheriff’s Department.

Also, I’m not sure why the number of convictions matters.  There were warrants.  These people were arrested and will get their day in court.  If they are exonerated, it doesn’t speak to the method in which they arrested as the outcome (exoneration) would have been the same even if they’d been picked up in a more traditional manner.

Thanks for the patronizing remarks, but I’m pretty familiar with law enforcement, good and bad.

You certainly haven’t demonstrated that in this thread.

It has been proved many times that a visible patrol car is the best deterrent to dangerous driving.  Unfortunately, most police agencies are more interested in revenue and in padding their arrest records than in keeping the public safe from the bad guys.

I actually agree with this, but would point out again that the “Highway Patrol on the side of the road” example isn’t really comparable to the issue at hand.

The purpose of government shouldn’t be to do good, but simply to refrain from doing evil.

If they are exonerated, it doesn’t speak to the method in which they arrested as the outcome (exoneration) would have been the same even if they’d been picked up in a more traditional manner.

Actually, it depends totally on what the defense lawyer is able to use to get the not guilty verdict.  If it has to do with any mistakes due to the sting operation, it’s an example of bad police work.

Despite your personal attack, I am quite familiar with police work, both good and bad.

...the “Highway Patrol on the side of the road” example isn’t really comparable to the issue at hand.

My point exactly; the visible police car is an example of proper police work; it’s not flashy and it doesn’t generate revenue, but it makes the highways safer.

If govt control of the economy were the way to go, the Soviet Union would be the richest, most powerful nation in the history of the world.

Thanks to Obama, America remains the only country where it is illegal to drill our own oil!

Rob: A “reasonable” argument isn’t one that you agree with, but one that uses reasons and reasoning, whether you agree with the reasons and reasoning or not.  Disagreeing with your opinions isn’t automatically “absurd”.  As a concerned citizen, my voice counts as much as yours.  Using putdowns instead of reasoning might be absurd, though.

If govt control of the economy were the way to go, the Soviet Union would be the richest, most powerful nation in the history of the world.

Thanks to Obama, America remains the only country where it is illegal to drill our own oil!