Home Mobile Archives Reader Blogs Register Login

Monday, April 16, 2007

Ethanol Subsidies Hurting Cattle, Hog & Chicken Producers, Hitting Citizens With A Double Whammy

An interesting paragraph from a press release sent to me North Dakota Policy Council Executive Director (and Say Anything contributor back when he didn’t have such a fancy-pants title) Brett Narloch:

Because of the increased demand for corn, the livestock industry is suffering from higher feed costs [caused by the increased use of corn for ethanol]. “The North Dakota Agriculture Department states that the livestock industry is the second most important industry in North Dakota, yet the government is actively supporting its competition,” Narloch said.  “Cattle, hog, and chicken producers have and will continue to see their profit margins shrink because of the increased cost of feed, which is a direct result of the government artificially inflating demand for ethanol.”

This is one aspect of the whole ethanol issue that a lot of people miss.  It’s also indicative of the problems we face when we allow the government to interfere with open-market commerce.

Were the ethanol industry not currently propped up by subsidies funded by our tax dollars the fuel wouldn’t be competitive against other fuels on the open market.  Performance wise ethanol doesn’t match up with ordinary gasoline.  It makes fuel mileage to go down sharply and causes a noticeable decline in engine power.  And cost wise ethanol wouldn’t even be in the same ballpark as regular gasoline were it not for the aforementioned subsidies.

Nobody is going to pay more for a fuel that worsens gas mileage and makes your engine less powerful.

Yet despite this, many politicians in our government have decided that we should be using ethanol.  So they subsidize it, which creates an artificially inflated demand for the fuel.  By “artificially inflated” I mean a demand that wouldn’t exist were ethanol’s prices not pushed lower by our tax dollars.

Now while that subsidy may be good for corn growers and investors in ethanol plants, it certainly isn’t good for people who buy corn to feed themselves or their animals.  As Brett notes, ethanol plants buying up all the corn is particularly hard on ranchers who depend on corn as a feed for their livestock.  And when it’s hard on those ranchers, it’s hard on the rest of us who eat the meat produced by those ranchers.

Which means that because of these ethanol subsidies we citizens are getting hit with a double whammy.  Not only do we have to pay tax dollars to subsidize ethanol, we also have to pay the increased food costs associated with higher livestock production costs.  It’s not really fair, is it?  But that’s what happens when the government starts fooling around with the free marketplace.

I would suggest that if America’s politicians are truly interested in seeing this country use ethanol as a way to get away from fossil-based fuels that come from the middle east they’d drop the $0.54/gallon tariff on imported ethanol from places like Brazil.  That would not only flood our markets with cheap ethanol (fuel that’s cheap without costing us any tax dollars) it would also shift our flow of energy dollars away from the middle east and toward a friendly ally and trade partner like Brazil.

Unfortunately, it seems like our politicians (many of them right here in North Dakota) are more interested in enriching ethanol plant investors then allowing ethanol to thrive (or die) on the open market.

You can read the entire press release here.  You can read the full report on ethanol released by the ND Policy Council here.

Comments

Avatar for Dustin Gawrylow

Fancy Pants?

He wore jeans to the the last press conference.

And they weren’t even fancy jeans!

Dustin Gawrylow on April 16, 2007 at 12:55 pm
Avatar for Robert Perry

Even worse, the runoff from fertilized corn fields is said to be producing a “dead zone” at the mouth of the Mississippi, which negatively impacts fisheries, including those for shrimp.

So you get worse performance, worse mileage, AND both parts of your Surf-n-Turf special at the local steakhouse cost more.  Ouch.

Robert Perry on April 16, 2007 at 01:04 pm
Rob
Rob
19492 comments
Send a private message

Robert, not sure if you’re joking or not, but the increased food prices caused by more expensive corn aren’t going to be anything to laugh at if this keeps up.


When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

robport.gif border=0

Rob on April 16, 2007 at 02:02 pm
Avatar for Robert Perry

Rob, I wish I were joking.  Unfortunately, I’m not; fertilizer runoff has devastated fisheries at the mouth of the Mississippi.  It’s a somewhat funny picture, but a deadly serious reality.

Robert Perry on April 16, 2007 at 02:12 pm
Avatar for Hawk

Just goes to show that big farm has better lobbyist than big beef.

Hawk on April 16, 2007 at 02:17 pm
Rob
Rob
19492 comments
Send a private message

Robert, I didn’t mean joking about the runoff.  I meant joking about the serious impact those higher prices are gonna have.

The runoff is a problem too.

Hawk, quite right.  If only we could get our politicians to do what’s in our best interest instead of what’s in the best interest of the lobbyists.

By the way, these are the same people you want to give more power to with your big-government liberalism.  So take a bow.  You’re part of the problem.


When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

robport.gif border=0

Rob on April 16, 2007 at 02:41 pm

Rob
If there is a demand for ethanol and it drives other prices up… so what? I can afford it. Who gives a crap. You guys are also mounting environmental objections? Wow. Whats going on here??


Yun Chu said, “You must strictly not express in words what is very significant. Both dragon and snake are killed in one blow.”

Sparkie Arbuckle on April 16, 2007 at 02:57 pm

BTW its not artificial demand. Gimme a break. When you have to crush porous rock to get oil, its not an artificial demand. We should just let Exxon and whoever else give all our money to the terrorists? That’s better than a couple of pigfarmers getting with the 21st century? C’mon. You just can’t ‘work the land’ anymore. I’ve heard countless rants about outmoded farming being propped up with gov’t money on here. And this? Artificial demand my ass.


Yun Chu said, “You must strictly not express in words what is very significant. Both dragon and snake are killed in one blow.”

Sparkie Arbuckle on April 16, 2007 at 03:00 pm
Rob
Rob
19492 comments
Send a private message

Sparkie, try to follow along.

The artificial demand is being created by the government buying down ethanol prices with our tax subsidies.  Minus the tax subsidies, ethanol wouldn’t be as cheap as it is.  Thus, there would be less demand for it.

If ethanol were competing with oil without subsidies I’d be fine with it.  But it’s not.


When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

robport.gif border=0

Rob on April 16, 2007 at 03:12 pm

Good going, Rob; had this one in the Reader Blogs last week.  Govt subsidies distort the market.  End of story.  Everyone suffers, except the political class who uses their pie-in-the-sky promises to buy votes.
If we developed our own oil, we wouldn’t need terrorist oil for 10-15 years, which would be long enough to break them economically.  Subsidies on ethanol just delay this process, while claiming to “free us” from imported oil.  It’s pure BS.


"Give the lefties a pile of money, and they’ll spend it buying votes.” - Rush Limbaugh on the “bailout”.

robert108 on April 16, 2007 at 03:21 pm

Rob
Get rid of the oil subsudies and you might have a case. Follow that?


Yun Chu said, “You must strictly not express in words what is very significant. Both dragon and snake are killed in one blow.”

Sparkie Arbuckle on April 16, 2007 at 03:23 pm
Avatar for Robert Perry

Sparkie, perhaps you ought to be a little more careful before you say “I can afford it.” My flippant example aside, government sponsored ethanol production is wreaking havoc.  It’s trimming already slender profit margins in meat producing industries, and millions in Mexico do rely on maize for their daily tortillas.  Make those too expensive, and we just might get a lot more people crossing the border.

You, sir, are going to be footing the bill for services related to these new immigrants--hundreds of billions of dollars annually.  Add that to the increase in your grocery bill, and you probably will decide that you don’t want to afford this.

And yes, conservatives DO care about the environment.  We simply disagree with liberals about the best way to protect it.

Robert Perry on April 16, 2007 at 03:24 pm

If the government is helping to fund exploratory operations for oil companies (very expensive and sometimes to no avail) and normalizing relations with places like Kazakhstan so the oil companies can do business while our money is gong to shooting protesters over there… and you guys are bitching about the Mexicans affording their tortillas? Ha. you guys can fake certain things, but this aint one of them. give me an effing break.


Yun Chu said, “You must strictly not express in words what is very significant. Both dragon and snake are killed in one blow.”

Sparkie Arbuckle on April 16, 2007 at 03:28 pm

From Economist.com:

Subsidy

MONEY paid, usually by GOVERNMENT, to keep PRICES below what they would be in a free market, or to keep alive businesses that would otherwise go bust, or to make activities happen that otherwise would not take place. Subsidies can be a form of PROTECTIONISM by making domestic goods and SERVICES artificially competitive against IMPORTS. By distorting markets, they can impose large economic costs.

We don’t have oil subsidies in this country.  It’s not necessary, as there is a very solid demand for petroleum products.  The market is quite lucrative, as a matter of fact.  Not so for ethanol.


"Give the lefties a pile of money, and they’ll spend it buying votes.” - Rush Limbaugh on the “bailout”.

robert108 on April 16, 2007 at 03:45 pm
Avatar for Robert Perry

But that’s not a subsidy, Sparkie, but rather a tax rule on the deductibility of oil exploration costs.  Perhaps you’d like to have capital costs of industry be taxable?  Good luck finding your next job if it consistently were!

Robert Perry on April 16, 2007 at 03:46 pm
Rob
Rob
19492 comments
Send a private message

Sparkie: Tax cuts are not equal to subsidies.

But if you don’t like the way our politicians use the tax code to favor certain industries and punish others, join me in calling for a simplification of it.

By the way, with most oil companies paying more in taxes than they make in profit I hardly see how you can compare them to the sort of “favored status” ethanol producers get from politicians.

Again, try to follow along.  I know it’s confusing, but feel free to ask your mom for help if you need to.


When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

robport.gif border=0

Rob on April 16, 2007 at 03:48 pm

Robert Perry
There is currently a 28 billion dollar subsidy for oil companies over the next five years. OK? That’s excluding the 2.6 billion a year in tax breaks. OK?


Yun Chu said, “You must strictly not express in words what is very significant. Both dragon and snake are killed in one blow.”

Sparkie Arbuckle on April 16, 2007 at 03:52 pm

Rob
We posted simultaneously. See above.


Yun Chu said, “You must strictly not express in words what is very significant. Both dragon and snake are killed in one blow.”

Sparkie Arbuckle on April 16, 2007 at 03:56 pm
Avatar for Robert Perry

Sparkie, perhaps we can help you understand what’s really going on if you provide a source, and no, DU, KOS, and HuffingtonPost don’t count.

Robert Perry on April 16, 2007 at 03:56 pm

PS - About asking my mom for help… I’m not the one playing stupid to advance an argument.


Yun Chu said, “You must strictly not express in words what is very significant. Both dragon and snake are killed in one blow.”

Sparkie Arbuckle on April 16, 2007 at 03:57 pm
Avatar for Robert Perry

No, we realize that you’re not playing stupid.  That’s why we’re here to help, but to help you, you do need to provide a source for your allegations.

Robert Perry on April 16, 2007 at 03:58 pm

There are no subsidies for oil companies, because there is no need for them.  This subsidy talk is just leftie BS, because lefties are economically ignorant.
So called “tax breaks” assume that the govt is entitled to a certain portion of our earnings, and if they take less, they are giving us a “break”.  Nothing could be farther from the truth.  Every dollar in tax injures the economy, but up to about 20%, that injury is compensated by essential govt services, which do not include social engineering.  Above 20% total tax rate, the cost outweighs the benefit.
All forms of public transportation are subsidized to some degree, btw.


"Give the lefties a pile of money, and they’ll spend it buying votes.” - Rush Limbaugh on the “bailout”.

robert108 on April 16, 2007 at 03:59 pm

Robert Perry
Look it up yourself. I know I’m not about to convince you guys of anything. Also - I’m indifferent to ethanol. From what I gather it pollutes the same and is basically a decoy so the oil companies can become entrenched as the supply dwindles. I think we should slap down the Mass senators and throw up as many wind turbines as we can off the Mass coast. I also understand there are tide turbines in development. they spin as the water goes in and out. When I see some real alternative options I will get a bit more excited.


Yun Chu said, “You must strictly not express in words what is very significant. Both dragon and snake are killed in one blow.”

Sparkie Arbuckle on April 16, 2007 at 04:02 pm
Avatar for Robert Perry

I did, silly, and apart from some relatively minor things, there is no subsidy whatsoever, let alone one worth $26 billion. 

Yes, the newspapers DID carelessly refer to taxation and accounting rules as “subsidies” because the rules for oil companies differ from those for some other businesses.  However, that does not make a subsidy.

Robert Perry on April 16, 2007 at 04:15 pm

BTW
if you give preferential treatment to oil companies in the way of tax breaks that other companies do not get… it amounts to subsidies. if i pay 11% tax and everyone else pays 18% tax… the government is giving me 7% (or letting me keep it - whatever, semantics) - so if the ethanol companies are being taxed at the same rate as the oil companies… that’s fair… otherwise we can’t bitch about subsidies creating an artificial demand unless they bring the average tax rate of 18% down below what the oil comanies pay.. roughly 11%. sorry. i was confused. i suspect that the subsidies don’t make up that 7% difference. maybe they do. if they do… artificial demand. if they don’t… level the playing field and we’ll see what’s better. unfair taxation CAN AMOUNT TO SUBSIDIES - its just a matter of semantics and i’m not about to split hairs to stick up for anyone.

rob. i like simple taxation too. not much tax and an equally applied tax. anything else is silly in my mind.


Yun Chu said, “You must strictly not express in words what is very significant. Both dragon and snake are killed in one blow.”

Sparkie Arbuckle on April 16, 2007 at 04:27 pm

Robert Perry
Out of curiosity… what are the, “relatively minor things” you allude to?


Yun Chu said, “You must strictly not express in words what is very significant. Both dragon and snake are killed in one blow.”

Sparkie Arbuckle on April 16, 2007 at 04:28 pm

For the economically ignorant(and you know who you are), here’s a few words about “outsourcing”.  When a business chooses to locate in the US, that is a business decision.  That business will tend to stay in the US unless conditions become so unfavorable(taxation and regulation) that it is no longer feasible to remain here.  Thus, the govt is always the reason for “outsourcing”.  This results in a loss of revenue to the govt, so, in the case of the oil companies, which contribute megabucks to the political coffers, inducements are offered in the form of rolling back some of the more onerous taxes and regulations, which were wrong in the first place. This is not subsidy, in any way at all, but is the govt’s greed for their tax dollars.  Don’t be confused, lefties.


"Give the lefties a pile of money, and they’ll spend it buying votes.” - Rush Limbaugh on the “bailout”.

robert108 on April 16, 2007 at 04:59 pm
Avatar for Hawk

By the way, these are the same people you want to give more power to with your big-government liberalism.  So take a bow.  You’re part of the problem.

On the other hand, those people are the ones you don’t want to regulate and will give them free reign to spend their money lobbying the government, so you are part of the problem too.

Hawk on April 16, 2007 at 05:02 pm

On the other hand, those people are the ones you don’t want to regulate and will give them free reign to spend their money lobbying the government, so you are part of the problem too.

No because in effect lobbying is paying protection money.  If the Congress would stick to their job and not expand on it there wouldn’t be very much problem with lobbying.


What’s going to happen to US industry when the global warming extremists like John McCain double the price of electricity?  I would think all these factories will close and set up in countries where they aren’t scared of technology.


The Whistler's signature
The Whistler on April 16, 2007 at 05:09 pm
Avatar for Hawk

I’m all for lobbying reform, including campaign finance reform.  We need to get money out of politics.  Protecting the donation of money as free speech is ridiculous.  Money is not speech, it is money.

Hawk on April 16, 2007 at 05:15 pm

r108

Thus, the govt is always the reason for “outsourcing”

I thought it was the damn unions fault.
And besides why would someone want a stinkin factory job anyway......


“We have a dollar that’s adjusting and I am for a strong dollar.....
Our dollar doesn’t buy as many barrels of oil as it used to and so therefore it’s more expensive for the American people”..... Bush 3/12/08

Mark D on April 16, 2007 at 05:16 pm

MarkD: I doubt that I am capable of dispelling your monumental ignorance, but the only reason unions exist at all is because the govt exempts them from antitrust legislation.


"Give the lefties a pile of money, and they’ll spend it buying votes.” - Rush Limbaugh on the “bailout”.

robert108 on April 16, 2007 at 05:19 pm

r108
that is nice, but it doesn’t bear on whether the ethanol demand is artificial. we both agree the oil companies get special treatment not to outsource… which manipulates the market and you are against… or so you have said… but if the ethanol and oil companies were being taxed at the same rates perhaps the demand for ethanol could then be called artificial. right? i’m not saying they should or shouldn’t be taxed at the same or higher or lower rates… merely picking on the accusation of artificial demand as a result of subsidies.


Yun Chu said, “You must strictly not express in words what is very significant. Both dragon and snake are killed in one blow.”

Sparkie Arbuckle on April 16, 2007 at 05:20 pm

Hawk: But burning the American Flag is “speech”?  Get real.  The only reason lobbying is necessary is excessive govt intrusion in our lives, and especially in business.  The only reform we really need is govt reform.  If you want to get the money out of politics, quit allowing them to confiscate our earnings to use for vote-buying purposes.


"Give the lefties a pile of money, and they’ll spend it buying votes.” - Rush Limbaugh on the “bailout”.

robert108 on April 16, 2007 at 05:22 pm
Avatar for Hawk

MarkD: I doubt that I am capable of dispelling your monumental ignorance, but the only reason unions exist at all is because the govt exempts them from antitrust legislation.

BS, they exist for collective bargaining.  They are part of the free market, so what is your problem with them.

Hawk on April 16, 2007 at 05:22 pm

If you want to get the money out of politics, quit allowing them to confiscate our earnings to use for vote-buying purposes.

...and I thought that was just called ‘filling a prescription’. What are you suggesting? We just rob the pharmacies?

Yun Chu said, “You must strictly not express in words what is very significant. Both dragon and snake are killed in one blow.”

Sparkie Arbuckle on April 16, 2007 at 05:29 pm

Hawk
Where I live, they exist for the mob to collect dues from them.


Yun Chu said, “You must strictly not express in words what is very significant. Both dragon and snake are killed in one blow.”

Sparkie Arbuckle on April 16, 2007 at 05:30 pm

BS, they exist for collective bargaining.  They are part of the free market, so what is your problem with them.

There’s that leftie economic ignorance again.  Unions are exempt from antitrust legislation, otherwise they would be OOB.  Their function is to fix both the price and supply of labor(through work rules and hiring requirements) at levels other than what they would be in the free market.  Duh.
BTW, businesses can’t do “collective bargaining”.  Is that fair?


"Give the lefties a pile of money, and they’ll spend it buying votes.” - Rush Limbaugh on the “bailout”.

robert108 on April 16, 2007 at 05:33 pm
Avatar for Hawk

Hawk: But burning the American Flag is “speech”?  Get real.  The only reason lobbying is necessary is excessive govt intrusion in our lives, and especially in business.

Burning the American Flag is the proper way to dispose of it. 

So you want to arrest people for why they burn the American Flag and that is why it is speech. 

Giving money is access not speech.  If I give $1 or $1,000,000 it the same message.  So by limiting the amount of money someone can give, does not change the message, only the access.  That is why money can be regulated and is not speech.

Hawk on April 16, 2007 at 05:35 pm
Avatar for Hawk

BTW, businesses can’t do “collective bargaining”.  Is that fair?

I don’t really care if its fair.  I just wanted to point out that you are anti-union because you are pro-corporate, not because you are pro free-market.

I have no problem with the anti-trust laws.  I’m sure they have some problems, but in whole I think they are good public policy.

Hawk on April 16, 2007 at 05:39 pm

One more time, Sparkie.

r108
that is nice, but it doesn’t bear on whether the ethanol demand is artificial. That was Rob’s term; subsidies(real ones) produce a demand higher than it would be in the unrigged market. we both agree the oil companies get special treatment not to outsource… which manipulates the market and you are against… or so you have said… I said nothing of he kind.  In order to satisfy their greed for the massive taxes paid by oil companies(really the consumers), govt scales back it’s confiscatory taxes and obstructive regulations; it’s not for the good of the market, it’s for the greed of the politicians. but if the ethanol and oil companies were being taxed at the same rates perhaps the demand for ethanol could then be called artificial.I doubt that the tax rates for ethanol producers are anything near those of gasoline producers, but the real test would be to see if ethanol can compete on an equal footing with gasoline.  If it can, so much the better, and if it can’t, then subsidies to promote its use are wrong and detrimental. right? i’m not saying they should or shouldn’t be taxed at the same or higher or lower rates… merely picking on the accusation of artificial demand as a result of subsidies.  It’s simple economics that subsidies are done to increase demand beyond what the market would normally yield. If the demand were sufficient without subsidies, there would be no reason to have them.


"Give the lefties a pile of money, and they’ll spend it buying votes.” - Rush Limbaugh on the “bailout”.

robert108 on April 16, 2007 at 05:42 pm

I don’t really care if its fair.  I just wanted to point out that you are anti-union because you are pro-corporate, not because you are pro free-market. Wrong.  As a conservative, I support the free enterprise system. I’m against the unions because they are anti-free enterprise.  As I said, they exist to fix the price and supply of labor at other than market levels.  That’s wrong.

I have no problem with the anti-trust laws.  I’m sure they have some problems, but in whole I think they are good public policy. Then why not apply them to unions?


"Give the lefties a pile of money, and they’ll spend it buying votes.” - Rush Limbaugh on the “bailout”.

robert108 on April 16, 2007 at 05:46 pm
Avatar for Hawk

I have no problem with the anti-trust laws.  I’m sure they have some problems, but in whole I think they are good public policy. Then why not apply them to unions?

Because unions promote a strong middle class, while supporting cartels doesn’t.  That is the public policy I support.

Hawk on April 16, 2007 at 05:51 pm

Because unions promote a strong middle class, while supporting cartels doesn’t.  That is the public policy I support.

More monumental ignorance from you.  Unions were designed to advantage the lower classes(pure Marxism), and there are no cartels in the US.  The govt created corps to break the power of cartels(trusts), except for the labor trust(unions).  Corporations are quasi-govt entities.


"Give the lefties a pile of money, and they’ll spend it buying votes.” - Rush Limbaugh on the “bailout”.

robert108 on April 16, 2007 at 06:50 pm
Avatar for Hawk

Unions were designed to advantage the lower classes(pure Marxism), and there are no cartels in the US.

So?  I have no problem helping the lower class become middle class by evening up their bargaining power.  Just because you hate the lower class, doesn’t mean everybody does.

The govt created corps to break the power of cartels(trusts)

Silly me, I thought they were created to limit liability.

Corporations are quasi-govt entities.

What the hell are you talking about?  A quasi-government entity is an organization that has regulatory ties to the government, usually the executive branch.  Fannie Mae is a good example.  The only ties corporations have to the federal government is through money and influence peddling.  That statement just proves you are a corporate shill.

Hawk on April 17, 2007 at 07:55 am
Rob
Rob
19492 comments
Send a private message

I have no problem helping the lower class become middle class by evening up their bargaining power.

I don’t have a problem with it either.  Unions are perfectly legal, and constitutionally protected (right to assembly, etc.).

What I have a problem with are these government laws that often force workers to join unions, or force businesses to deal with unions.

If workers can decide to unionize, businesses can decide to fire all those workers and hire new ones.  That would be truly “even” bargaining power.  What Hawk undoubtedly wants isn’t equality, but dominance by the unions.

Even if he won’t come right out and admit to it.


When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

robport.gif border=0

Rob on April 17, 2007 at 08:14 am
Avatar for Hawk

If workers can decide to unionize, businesses can decide to fire all those workers and hire new ones.  That would be truly “even” bargaining power.  What Hawk undoubtedly wants isn’t equality, but dominance by the unions.
Even if he won’t come right out and admit to it.

I don’t want dominance by unions, but I don’t want dominance by corporations either.  Repeal the Taft-Hartley Act and we can talk.

Hawk on April 17, 2007 at 01:54 pm

Hawk spews, Just because you hate the lower class, doesn’t mean everybody does.

What? This isn’t an argument.

Come back to the table when you’ve got something substantive to offer. While you’re at it, check out the Rust Belt. Go ahead and explain how “unions promote a strong middle class” while also making their jobs disappear. I can throw your stupidity back at you here - just because you hate the lower class, doesn’t mean everybody does.

likwidshoe on April 17, 2007 at 01:59 pm

hawk, it is pukes like you spewing classwarfare bullshit that are screwing up the entire world. In America you are a “member” of a “class” because you choose to be.


Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

2Hotel9 on April 17, 2007 at 02:13 pm
Rob
Rob
19492 comments
Send a private message

I don’t want dominance by unions, but I don’t want dominance by corporations either.

You want it so that unions can threaten to have their employees quit all at once, but you don’t want it so that a business can decide to fire all of its employees at once.

That’s not equilibrium, Hawk.


When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

robport.gif border=0

Rob on April 17, 2007 at 02:25 pm

What the hell are you talking about?

In order to incorporate, you have to go through the govt, because it decides whether or not you can be a corporation.  Duh.

BTW, you can’t “promote” the “lower class” to the “middle class” by redistributing income.  It’s a matter of accomplishment.  A hint for you, Hawk: stay away from economics, as you apparently know nothing but Marxist ideology.  Your “class struggle” BS is evident.  In our system, capital and labor cooperate to produce wealth.


"Give the lefties a pile of money, and they’ll spend it buying votes.” - Rush Limbaugh on the “bailout”.

robert108 on April 17, 2007 at 11:19 pm
Avatar for Hawk

In order to incorporate, you have to go through the govt, because it decides whether or not you can be a corporation.

That does not make you a quasi-governmental entity. Don’t use terms you don’t understand.

Hawk on April 18, 2007 at 05:31 pm

You really are at a loss in this thread, aren’t you hawk?


Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

2Hotel9 on April 18, 2007 at 05:43 pm

Because unions promote a strong middle class, while supporting cartels doesn’t.

Hawk,

Please tell me that someone old enough to have their very own computer and their very own keyboard is smart enough NOT to believe this kind of simplistic drivel.

Or you could always try to defend what you’ve said by proving that Robert108 was wrong when he said that unions fix the price and supply of labor at other than market levels, while you were correct in stating that union membership promotes the middle class,


“Poverty of goods is easily cured; poverty of the mind is irreparable.”

Bat One on April 18, 2007 at 05:58 pm

Don’t use terms you don’t understand.

Please take your own advice, Hawk, especially when it comes to economics.


"Give the lefties a pile of money, and they’ll spend it buying votes.” - Rush Limbaugh on the “bailout”.

robert108 on April 18, 2007 at 06:32 pm
Page 1 of 1        

Post a Comment


Before commenting, please recite:

Grant me the serenity to ignore the trolls,
the courage to debate with honest opponents,
and the wisdom to know the difference.

Name   
Email   
URL   
Human?
  
 

Upload Image    

Remember my personal information

Notify me of follow-up comments?

Note: Notifications will only be sent to confirmed email addresses.

    

By submitting your comment you agree to our terms of service.