Say Anything Blog

Because the majority of Americans want these programs.

Good point, but only because they haven’t been told the whole story about these “programs”.  As usual, the politicians seek to buy votes, not actually benefit the country.  Otherwise, they would stick to their Constitutional duties and only spend the money they confiscate for legitimate purposes.

If you don’t know by now, don’t mess with it.

Maybe yes, maybe no, but does might make right?  Is the majority always correct?

You’re well-off and elderly, Puzzled.  Tell me why I should pay more in Social Security and Medicare taxes than I’m able to put aside for retirement so that you can collect on entitlements you don’t need.

When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

Because the majority of Americans want these programs.

Puzzle,

Thank you for an exquisite example of the danger of pure democracy… and Democrats.

“Poverty of goods is easily cured; poverty of the mind is irreparable.”

Rob, because the vast majority of Americans want those programs and support those programs. 

And according to R108, we don’t know the whole story.  If we just knew the whole story we would do our constitutional duty according to what R108 claims is our constitutional duty. I guess that’s where reasonable minds can differ.  I’d be more than willing to put Social Security and Medicare to a vote of the people.

I pay more in Social Security taxes and medicare taxes than you do Rob and I think they are terrific programs to keep people out of poverty.  The safety net is there even for you and your family Rob, even if you don’t want it. That’s part of living in a community in a democracy in this great country.  Every 4 years there’s an election and if the people want it changed then it will be changed.  That just isn’t where the vast majority of Americans are. And I hardly think your parents are going to send back their checks or not use Medicare.

Actually B1 it’s also part of our representative democracy.  The voters urge their elected leaders to keep these programs, hence no danger at all.  you don’t like elect other leaders.  Your problem is no one’s buying what you are trying to sell.

Hey and watch who you’re calling elderly.  I haven’t had my AARP card that long.

Puzzled, answer the question.

Why am I being denied the ability to save more money for my own retirement in order to fund active entitlements (not a safety net) for people who can afford their own retirement and prescription drugs.

Don’t distort this.  It isn’t about people who can’t help themselves.  We’re talking about people who can help themselves, but are taking my tax dollars anyway.

Why is that fair?

When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

Rob, because the vast majority of Americans want those programs and support those programs.

So?  Hitler managed to get himself elected.  Again, the majority isn’t always right.  Quit distorting and let’s discuss these programs on their merits.

When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

The thought of you Rob, supporting my retirement is utterly delicious.  But the answer that you won’t like is that we live in communities and a democracy, a representative and the vast majority of people support the program. I don’t support the war yet my tax dollars are being used for something I don’t approve of.  But because I live in a democracy, my tax dollars may be used for some things I don’t like and my alternative is to work to get it changed as you certainly are welcome to do.

Oh, and I’m not distorting anything, the vast majority of americans do support Social Security and Medicare. 

And you quit with the Hitler crap.

Your problem is no one’s buying what you are trying to sell.

Yep… no doubt about it, personal liberty and the personal responsibility that lead to self-sufficiency IS a tough sell.  Too many people buying into too much liberal Democrat collectivist bullshit, I guess.

“Poverty of goods is easily cured; poverty of the mind is irreparable.”

Yeah, B1, tell it to all those conservative republicans who are cashing their SS checks each and every month and they will come running to aid you in stopping their social security and retiree health care.  Yep they will be running right into your arms.

I don’t support the war yet my tax dollars are being used for something I don’t approve of.

But we’re not talking about the war.  We’re not even talking about what the majority in this country does and does not support in terms of policy.

What we’re talking about is whether or not it’s right to take tax dollars from one group of citizens to provide entitlements to another group of citizens who don’t need them?

The thought of you Rob, supporting my retirement is utterly delicious.

Well given that you’re an arrogant liberal, I’m not surprised that you think it’s cool to leech off of someone else.

Oh, and I’m not distorting anything, the vast majority of americans do support Social Security and Medicare.

And you quit with the Hitler crap.

I think the fact that Hitler got elected illustrates my point about the fallibility of political majorities perfectly.

Now are you willing to get around to answering my question about why I should have to pay money I need for entitlements you don’t need?  Or would you like to keep avoiding it for a few more comments?

When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

I’m all for helping people who legitimately cannot help themselves,…

But it should be by charitable philanthropic individuals, not by goverment mandate.

Although I do enjoy the prospect of illegal immigrants paying for my retirement.

Maybe we could strike a deal with Calderone, whereby the illagals return to Mexico, but continue with payments into the system…

“To love is not to stare steadfast at one another...it is to look forward, in the same direction.”
Saint-Exupéry

I thought I did, for the same reason that I am forced to fund the war, because we live in a representative democracy and the majority of Americans want these programs and the majority need these programs. You call them an entitlement and I don’t.

That you don’t like my answer doesn’t mean I will keep giving you an answer until it satisfies you.  No matter what I say Rob, you will still claim that I am taking your money.

Oh and it is the same as my analogy with the war.  Again, that you don’t want to make that connection and cite Hitler is just more of the same from you.  You cri, “your’re stealing my money”,when it’s something you don’t like when I answered that it’s all part of living in or democracy.  If you don’t like elect people who will do what you want.  It really is that simple.

That you don’t like my answer doesn’t mean I will keep giving you an answer until it satisfies you.  No matter what I say Rob, you will still claim that I am taking your money.

I won’t say it, I’ll state it as fact.

You are well off.  You collect entitlements you don’t need.  I, as a working American, fund those entitlements with money that I could better use for my own retirement so I wouldn’t need those entitlements.

You keep talking around this reality, because you have no good answer for it.

As for your war analogy, again we aren’t talking about what the majority wants.  We’re talking about the reality of what these programs are.

You liberals claim you’re for the “working American,” yet here you are in this thread posting smarmy comments about how you’re enjoying the unneeded fruits of working class Americans getting the hell taxed out of them.

When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

I am also a working American.  We are talking about what the majority of Americans want.  Why aren’t you talking about this fact?

Smarmy,you say?  If, as you say, you are lower middle class, then you must be one of those people you are always complaining about who don’t pay any taxes yet want more money back from the government then you paid in,including mine. 

I actually don’t mind paying the taxes that I do each and every year.  It is my responsibility as an American citizen in this great country.  I guess that’s just the liberal in me, Ha! So smarm away Rob!

It is my responsibility as an American citizen in this great country.

When does your “responsibility” obligate anyone else?
Of course, you can pay as much as you like to the govt.

If you don’t know by now, don’t mess with it.

I don’t support the war yet my tax dollars are being used for something I don’t approve of.

War is a legitimate expense of govt(national defense), but entitlement programs appear nowhere in the Constitution.

If you don’t know by now, don’t mess with it.

Yeah, B1, tell it to all those conservative republicans who are cashing their SS checks each and every month and they will come running to aid you
in stopping their social security and retiree health care. Yep they will be running right into your arms.

More leftie lies; the solution conservatives want is to turn those entitlement(welfare) programs into real investment programs; it’s you lefties who keep opposing that.  Shame on you!

If you don’t know by now, don’t mess with it.

I’d be more than willing to put Social Security and Medicare to a vote of the people.

Give them a choice between a welfare program(the present form) that barely pays subsistence, and a real investment program(which would pay much more, plus giving the retirees control over their own money); then vote.  Like I said before, if they only knew the truth…

If you don’t know by now, don’t mess with it.

“ ‘It is not the amount, Colonel, that I complain of; it is the principle. In the first place, the government ought to have in the Treasury no more than enough for its legitimate purposes. But that has nothing with the question. The power of collecting and disbursing money at pleasure is the most dangerous power that can be entrusted to man, particularly under our system of collecting revenue by a tariff, which reaches every man in the country, no matter how poor he may be, and the poorer he is the more he pays in proportion to his means. What is worse, it presses upon him without his knowledge where the weight centers, for there is not a man in the United States who can ever guess how much he pays to the government. So you see, that while you are contributing to relieve one, you are drawing it from thousands who are even worse off than he. If you had the right to give anything, the amount was simply a matter of discretion with you, and you had as much right to give $20,000,000 as $20,000. If you have the right to give to one, you have the right to give to all; and, as the Constitution neither defines charity nor stipulates the amount, you are at liberty to give to any and everything which you may believe, or profess to believe, is a charity, and to any amount you may think proper. You will very easily perceive what a wide door this would open for fraud and corruption and favoritism, on the one hand, and for robbing the people on the other. ’No, Colonel, Congress has no right to give charity. Individual members may give as much of their own money as they please, but they have no right to touch a dollar of the public money for that purpose.

-- Not Yours to Give, Col. Davy Crockett

...for great justice

Rob:
So?  Hitler managed to get himself elected.  Again, the majority isn’t always right.

This isn’t quite accurate.  Hitler was appointed Chancellor of Germany (after failing to win election as President) as part of a coalition government since his party held only 33% of the Parliament.  The highest representation his party achieved in Parliament was 43.9% following the Reichstag Fire.

The enabling act, similar to Chavez’s Venezuela ploy last year, gave the cabinet legislative power in March 1933 (passed by 2/3 of Parliament).

When President Hindenburg died at 87 in August 1934 a law was passed by the cabinet (under the authority granted by the enabling act) combining the office of Chancellor and President, thus giving Hitler control of the Military.  The consolidating of power was complete. 

Because this move changed constitutional offices it could be considered unconstitutional and a plebiscite was held asking the voters (yes or no) if they approved of the already enacted combining of the powers of Chancellor and President into a single office held by Adolf Hitler.  More of a constitutional reorganization.  This was more to ensure international acceptance.

While Hilter was legally and constitutionally chosen he wasn’t actually elected.  Strangely enough though he continued to get Parliament’s reauthorization of the enabling act every four years. 
DKK

Robert108:
(T)he solution conservatives want is to turn those entitlement(welfare) programs into real investment programs;

Rob does actually make it sound like he wants to get rid of Social Security and Medicare for everyone except as a safety net, but I agree with you, Robert108, completely. 

While today none of us conservatives approve of starting the system we have today, they were passed at a time when social programs (Socialism) were a legitimate tool in thwarting alternatives that took hold in Europe, namely Communism and Fascism. 

Fact is these programs are there!  The problem with them is that they haven’t been updated to keep pace with American society.  Mainly because of the politics of class warfare the left pulls out every 4 years.

Eliminating them would be possible, but only by privatizing them first so the funds were owned by each of us.  After all, does anyone want to forfeit all the funds paid in so far?  It would take years if ever after that. That is why the left won’t allow that, they lose control.  Sad thing is that by privatizing you would create immense wealth in future generations that would eliminate the need for the programs.  The really sad thing is that because of demographics some of the greatest benefits of privatizing, with proper restrictions to guarantee retirement income, would be gained by blacks, yet they vote against it by consistently voting Democrat.

I could go on, but this is too long a discussion for here in the comments.

Rob, I am not sure how you would only have a safety net.  Wouldn’t that be even less fair—more actual redistribution of the wealth—then a program where everyone is guaranteed the same payment (assuming you max out on contributions for the full amount of required quarters).  After all rather then getting some of my own money back, assuming I was wealthy enough, I would get nothing and someone would get my money when they didn’t pay in?

Are you certain you know how the programs are set up not just the rhetoric about funding debacles?

Would you eliminate all unemployment and workers comp as well?  These were part of the Social Security Act of 1935 and seem to be part of the safety net you approve of.

And yes, you have prepaid benefits—on paper at least.  It is a pass through system that would be an illegal Ponzi scheme if a private company tried it but it is ours.
DKK

Puzzlefeet - Because the majority of Americans want these programs.

How do you know that?

Your party destroyed any attempt at privatizing these programs. You called it a “loophole”. The “loophole” was freedom.

You sell these entitlement programs with dishonesty and then you engineer the game to prevent any real voice. Americans want what? You don’t even know. You and your party won’t allow a free answer.

R108 writes:

More leftie lies; the solution conservatives want is to turn those entitlement(welfare) programs into real investment programs; it’s you lefties who keep opposing that.  Shame on you!

If that were true, then it would have been changed during the last seven years of the Bush administration. Yet it wasn’t, now was it, R108.  You like to make all sorts of claims about what conservatives want, yet when push comes to shove, they don’t do anything but blow hot air, much like you.  You’ve had seven years of rhetoric on Social Security but you can’t even sell to your own constituency.

Entitlements sucks out 15% of GNP, defense only 4%.

Our tax dollars are poured into researching ways to keep people living until they are 110 yet the unions demand people retire at 65.

There will come the day when an overpopulated eldery culture will face the Progressive’s way of dealing with difficult situations; they’ll deny health care to those whom they determine are not worth saving, or pull the plug on those who take up bed space. See Europe for example.

When Progressives feared overpopulation of youngsters their abortionists justified their approach by saying “poor people breed proverty so don’t let them breed”; when society is overpopulated with eldery the Progressives will say be “old people cost money so don’t let them live”

Puzzlement; that’s some loving community you are supporting. And, you may not have a problem paying taxes since you probably pay out less in taxation than in benefits you are receiving but your children and grandchildren will not be in the position of having such luxury.

All your utopian thoughts of Serfdom will ever produce is misery, and the day will come when even you will suffer greatly for having been so stuck on stupid.

The question here isn’t whether people “want” this, the question is whether the system would remain viable if the population doubled.  If you do the math, the system is due to fail before 2050.

Whether the reality “sells” to the public makes it no less real. We don’t get to vote on what is real and what isn’t, or what is possible and what isn’t.

Social security only works if the tax-paying population grows faster than the older one, it is marginal if they grow at the same rate, and is doomed to failure if the eldarly population grows faster than the tax paying population.

It’s just math.

Rob, I am not sure how you would only have a safety net.  Wouldn’t that be even less fair—more actual redistribution of the wealth—then a program where everyone is guaranteed the same payment (assuming you max out on contributions for the full amount of required quarters).

Perhaps my comments haven’t fully illustrated my position.

I’m fine with government-provided checks and medical care for the disabled.  The mentally handicapped, for instance.  Put simply, I’m for helping those who legitimately cannot help themselves.  I am against helping those who simply won’t help themselves.

Make more sense?  In a nation this affluent, I don’t think we need to let anyone starve on the street.

When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

Carrick - It’s just math.

Puzzlefeet always counters that nobody is buying math that we’re supposedly trying to “sell”. She thinks that this is a partisan game.

Puzzlefeet will be dead when it goes belly up. It is something that people my age will have to deal with. What the hell does she care for? The bitch is selfish.

Lik, I don’t think there is any reason to call Puzzled a bitch.

That being said, she does suffer from the selfishness typical of those of her advanced age.  What do they care about the entitlements boondoggle?  They’re getting their SS payments and free prescription drugs now, so to heck with the younger working class struggling to make ends meet.

When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

Lik, I don’t think there is any reason to call Puzzled a bitch.

We’re forced to pay into a system that is a classic Ponzi Scheme. To top it off, we get to suffer under the smarmy idiocracy of people like Puzzlefeet, drunk off of their own lust for power.

What a bitch, egh?

No apologies. She gets off easy. I simply call out her status. She, on the other hand, takes 10+% of our entire work lives to fund her failing program.

What a bitch.

lik:

Do you have anything to offer besides insults and misinformation?

Nah...I didn’t think so.

Screechy and unhinged

“If a conservative is still a republican after the last 13 years, he is blind to the fact that his party of choice has failed him utterly.” – Realitybasedbob

Jack - if you believe that there was misinformation, then by all means point it out.

As it is right now, you’re just blowing hot air.

If that were true, then it would have been changed during the last seven years of the Bush administration.

False.  You lying lefties blocked it in the Senate, while lying to the Seniors about the reform.  You know this, and yet you try to sell yet another lie.  Shame on you!

If you don’t know by now, don’t mess with it.