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Friday, January 25, 2008

Economically Illiterate Paul Krugman Upset That Rebates Aren’t Going To People Who Don’t Pay Taxes

See, rather than a tax refund, Krugman would like to “stimulate the economy” by just sending out government checks to poor people.  Sort of like what we’re already doing with welfare, except I don’t think I need to remind you that welfare checks aren’t exactly stimulating the economy.

Aside from business tax breaks — which are an unhappy story for another column — the plan gives each worker making less than $75,000 a $300 check, plus additional amounts to people who make enough to pay substantial sums in income tax. This ensures that the bulk of the money would go to people who are doing O.K. financially — which misses the whole point.

The goal of a stimulus plan should be to support overall spending, so as to avert or limit the depth of a recession. If the money the government lays out doesn’t get spent — if it just gets added to people’s bank accounts or used to pay off debts — the plan will have failed.

And sending checks to people in good financial shape does little or nothing to increase overall spending. People who have good incomes, good credit and secure employment make spending decisions based on their long-term earning power rather than the size of their latest paycheck. Give such people a few hundred extra dollars, and they’ll just put it in the bank.

In fact, that appears to be what mainly happened to the tax rebates affluent Americans received during the last recession in 2001.

This is absurd on so many levels I don’t even know where to begin.

For one, let’s use our common sense: When it comes to blowing a tax rebate check or saving it/paying off debt who is likely to do rich?  Is Krugman really expecting us to believe that a low-income citizen, who likely has debt and is living paycheck-to-paycheck, is the sort of citizen most likely to go out and blow a rebate check on a television?  Does he expect us to believe that a more affluent citizen, who generally has his/her debt and income situation squared away, is less likely to use this one-time check for a one-time big purchase?

I think he has things backward.  I think the low-income citizen is more likely to save this rebate check as a buffer against future financial shortcomings and/or use it to pay of existing debt.  Your higher income people are the ones most likely to use the check for a quick vacation, or for a shopping spree.  this is because the lower income person likely needs the money. To the higher income person it’s disposable.

But let’s also talk about the actual economic impact this tax cut is likely to have.  Even if every single penny of it gets spent in our economy, are we really to believe that’s going to have a lasting impact?  A one-time, short-lived increase in spending?  Please.  If we want real economic stimulus we need to lower the overall burden of taxes, and that means cuts in tax rates.  Not only would that be long-term tax relief (your yearly tax bill would be smaller, so more money in your pocket year after year) it would make the tax relief proportional to how it was paid in.

Those who paid a lot in would save a lot.  Those who paid little in would save little.

And yes, I know.  That’s “tax cuts for the rich.” But I’d ask how exactly we give tax relief that isn’t skewed to “the rich” when we live with a tax code where “the rich” pay the vast majority of taxes?  If we’re going to send “tax rebates” to people who didn’t pay those taxes in the first place (or paid very little of them) shouldn’t we at least be honest and call it what it is?  Nothing more than a check from the government to buy off our demands for real, substantial, genuine tax relief?

Comments

I still haven’t seen where the cut off is for whether or not you’ve made too much money.

After all if you’re a successful person the money you spend is less good for the economy than if you are poor.  I think that’s how it is.


The Debate is over!  Global Whining has been confirmed.


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The Whistler on January 25, 2008 at 02:29 pm

Krugman’s been wrong sooooo many times that he makes weathermen look like they’re battin’ .1000. Maybe he should donate the money he made off of being an advisor to Enron to all those people not getting checks (and shouldn’t that crush any “credibility” some ever thought he had: that’s rhetorical by the way).

When, and if I get my check, I’m blowing it on a Wii, or a new composter...probably both.


""That’s the problem with you lefties, you’re not willing to get your hands dirty. I’d suggest you roll up your sleeves.”

-Jack Bauer

Hoss on January 25, 2008 at 02:32 pm
Avatar for upyernoz

actually, krugman comes across as a lot more economically literate than you in this case. krugman didn’t say that poor people receiving a check are likely to “buy a television” or “go on a shopping spree”, he said a poor person is more likely to spend it.

it could be on food, it could be on rent, it could be any number of necessities. the bottom line is that poor people are a lot less likely to save the money simply because they often can’t afford not to spend it. the higher up the socio-economic ladder you go, the higher the chance that it won’t be spent in the u.s. economy.

and yes, a poor person is likely in debt, but that just supports krugman’s case. even if the check goes towards paying a debt, the money is helping the u.s. economy.

the only time you make any sense at all is when you write:

are we really to believe that’s going to have a lasting impact?  A one-time, short-lived increase in spending?

which is an argument against any stimulus package, not just this one. the bill krugman is criticizing is not supposed to be a tax relief bill, it’s supposed to be a temporary economic stimulus bill. and yes, perhaps temporary economic stimuli don’t work. but that’s no reason to turn a stimulus bill into a tax relief bill.

upyernoz on January 25, 2008 at 02:33 pm

Your kidding?

I don’t think I need to remind you that welfare checks aren’t exactly stimulating the economy.

That money immediately goes into the economy.
Cut off that money and watch businesses shrivel.

If we want real economic stimulus we need to lower the overall burden of taxes, and that means cuts in tax rates.

This is year 8 of that nonsense, and here you are looking for stimulus by slight of hand.

WOOF on January 25, 2008 at 03:04 pm

the higher up the socio-economic ladder you go, the higher the chance that it won’t be spent in the u.s. economy.

This statement illustrates your economic illiteracy; the lifeblood of our economic system is reinvestment, not consumer spending.  Taking money from the more productive and giving it to the less productive isn’t any sort of economic stimulus; it’s pure vote-buying, as is all redistribution.
Taking money out of the private sector, passing it through govt bureaucracy and dispensing what’s left to the less productive in the private sector is the exact opposite of economic stimulus.
The govt can’t actually stimulate the economy; it can only reduce the damage it does.
Neither you or Krugman seems to know this basic truth.


"If the good men are silent only the wicked are heard.” - Edmund Burke

robert108 on January 25, 2008 at 03:05 pm

That money immediately goes into the economy.
Cut off that money and watch businesses shrivel.

You mean as the deadbeats rush to get a job and join the productive sector of the economy?


The Debate is over!  Global Whining has been confirmed.


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The Whistler on January 25, 2008 at 03:06 pm
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actually, krugman comes across as a lot more economically literate than you in this case. krugman didn’t say that poor people receiving a check are likely to “buy a television” or “go on a shopping spree”, he said a poor person is more likely to spend it.

it could be on food, it could be on rent, it could be any number of necessities. the bottom line is that poor people are a lot less likely to save the money simply because they often can’t afford not to spend it.

But, they would have bought food and paid their rent anyway.  So if they spend on something that’s routine, what kindn of stimulus is that?  What Krugman is saying is that they need to spend it on something new.  But, again, the poor aren’t likely to do that.

This is year 8 of that nonsense, and here you are looking for stimulus by slight of hand.

And we’re coming off nearly eight consecutive years of economic and job growth.

What’s your point?


The war against illegal plunder has been fought since the beginning of the world. But how is… legal plunder to be identified? Quite simply. See if the law takes from some persons what belongs to them, and gives it to other persons to whom it does not belong. See if the law benefits one citizen at the expense of another by doing what the citizen himself cannot do without committing a crime. Then abolish this law without delay … If such a law is not abolished immediately it will spread, multiply and develop into a system.

Frédéric Bastiat, The Law

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Rob on January 25, 2008 at 03:43 pm

Is this “stimulus package” akin to bush saying “I’m from the government and I’m here to help”


“If a conservative is still a republican after the last 13 years, he is blind to the fact that his party of choice has failed him utterly.” – Realitybasedbob

realitybasedbob on January 25, 2008 at 04:13 pm

The whole plan makes no sense to me. Last year I payed nearly 12 grand just in federal witholdings, for the sake of the economy they’re willing to give me back an extra $600. Why not do away with the pork, spend what they take like they actually had to earn it and then get serious about reducing taxes?

...wishful thinking…


"we should select our leaders on principle first, electability second.”

A young man whose wisdom far exceeds his years

Spartacus on January 25, 2008 at 04:13 pm

I would guess that a poor person would be more likely to spend such a payment rather than save it or apply it to debt since the payment is basically found money. That has been my experience at any rate...whether the wealthier recipient is more likely to save or spend is harder to say. Given the level of debt in America, I wouldn’t automatically assume that he’d spend it.

r108...does your comment about consumer spending versus reinvestment mean that you don’t believe that the health of the American economy rests on the consumer’s willingness and/or ability to spend? That position would certainly be at odds with conventional wisdom, particularly over the past 20 years or so.


No passion so effectually robs the mind of all its powers of acting and reasoning as fear
*Edmund Burke*

MikeAdamson on January 25, 2008 at 08:18 pm

...conventional wisdom…

Is that anything like “the common good”?

Actually, if you read what I wrote, very carefully, your question will be found to be unnecessary.

Consumer spending is obviously a major feature of a free enterprise economy, but continuance of supplying the demand is produced by reinvestment, which is why I called it “the lifeblood”.  Sorry you didn’t get that.

You see, it takes not just demand, but supply, as well.  Demand is eternal and ceaseless, whereas the ability to supply that demand is what produces prosperity(and economic growth).  The profit motive makes that supply process as efficient as possible.


"If the good men are silent only the wicked are heard.” - Edmund Burke

robert108 on January 25, 2008 at 08:34 pm

Where’s my handout? (:^(

Kevin on January 25, 2008 at 08:41 pm

MikeAdamson - I would guess that a poor person would be more likely to spend such a payment rather than save it or apply it to debt since the payment is basically found money.

Why does that matter?

The rich man is forced to invest his money or else he loses out to inflation.

Investment is better if you really want to use that criteria.

r108...does your comment about consumer spending versus reinvestment mean that you don’t believe that the health of the American economy rests on the consumer’s willingness and/or ability to spend?

The health of the American economy rests on the wealth of the American economy. Spending is just a transfer of a portion of that wealth. In other words, the noun, not the verb.

likwidshoe on January 25, 2008 at 08:43 pm

Actually, the health of the American economy rests both on the wealth of the economy and the spending/transfer of that wealth.

The quickest way to damage the health of the economy is to bring about stagnation by raising the cost of spending/transferring that wealth. This happens with higher taxes.

Higher taxes decrease economic activity and damage the health.

Learning anything yet? Or do you agree with WOOF that low taxes are just a “slight of hand” (how, we don’t know because we never got an argument)?

likwidshoe on January 25, 2008 at 08:54 pm

coming off nearly eight consecutive years of economic and job growth.

What’s your point

Eight years of abysmal growth,
just getting back to Clinton numbers in terms of year 2000
dollars.

If the economy is so strong, why this wild notion to flood the country with cash?

WOOF on January 25, 2008 at 08:56 pm

Household net worth, for normal households, is at an all time high!(:^)

Kevin on January 25, 2008 at 09:01 pm

It looks like WOOF is in his own world. It allows him to say that low taxes are a “slight of hand” without ever explaining how the government taking money is healthy to an economy.

likwidshoe on January 25, 2008 at 09:01 pm

Low taxes caused the deficit, the deficit caused the devaluation of the dollar.

Eight years of low taxes is why we are here.

Fiscal irresponcibility,
voodoo.

WOOF on January 25, 2008 at 09:03 pm

Federal tax receipts are at an all time high, but details, details, eh?

Kevin on January 25, 2008 at 09:06 pm

WOOF - Low taxes caused the deficit...

No, that was the result of government spending.

You don’t use your credit card and then claim that a low salary caused it. Your spending caused it.

Get your head out of your ass WOOF.

likwidshoe on January 25, 2008 at 09:07 pm
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Low taxes caused the deficit, the deficit caused the devaluation of the dollar.

Eight years of low taxes is why we are here.

Hey, genius: Federal tax receipts went up after the Bush tax cuts.  Whether or not that was caused by the Bush tax cuts is a debate for another time.

And tax cuts don’t cause deficits, spending more than we take in revenue causes benefits.  But I don’t understand why you liberals are never willing to talk about government waste when the subject if deficits.


The war against illegal plunder has been fought since the beginning of the world. But how is… legal plunder to be identified? Quite simply. See if the law takes from some persons what belongs to them, and gives it to other persons to whom it does not belong. See if the law benefits one citizen at the expense of another by doing what the citizen himself cannot do without committing a crime. Then abolish this law without delay … If such a law is not abolished immediately it will spread, multiply and develop into a system.

Frédéric Bastiat, The Law

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Rob on January 25, 2008 at 09:11 pm

Low taxes caused the deficit, the deficit caused the devaluation of the dollar.

Same old leftie ignorance; tax rates were lowered, not total tax receipts.  Duh.

Your old, tired static analysis just doesn’t describe reality.


"If the good men are silent only the wicked are heard.” - Edmund Burke

robert108 on January 25, 2008 at 09:51 pm

I don’t understand why you liberals are never willing to talk about government waste when the subject if deficits.

Rob-

I think it boils down to Leftist mindset versus Conservative mindset, specifically, their perspectives.

The Conservative sees himself as working in the private sector, and facing government programs as problems in the way of their private sector solutions.  ("How can I get my venture off the ground?  How will taxes and local, state and federal regulations affect my business decisions?")


The Leftist
sees himself as getting into government, not as a public servant, but as part of the leadership cadre, to lord over the masses who don’t know better. 

Thus, the Leftist will always want a government (that they control) to have more money and more control. 

Until they control government, all government rules are fair game for evasion, breaking and change.  Once in power, it’s they tool they use to control others (guns, food, lifestyles, religion, housing, employment, education..  you name it).


...for great justice

Move_Zig on January 25, 2008 at 09:58 pm

The Leftist sees himself as getting into government, not as a public servant, but as part of the leadership cadre, to lord over the masses who don’t know better.

Absolutely; no one becomes a communist/socialist to be one of the “proletariat”.


"If the good men are silent only the wicked are heard.” - Edmund Burke

robert108 on January 25, 2008 at 10:08 pm

"The pink numbers are Secretary Snow’s, the dark blue, the Times’. Secretary Snow used current dollars, not adjusted for inflation. The Times adjusted for inflation, showing constant FY2000 dollar values.

Comparing revenues and expenditures over several years makes no sense in current, unadjusted dollars, as inflation alone would make it look like revenues had increased even if the buying power of those revenues stayed exactly the same.”

2006357271171600804_rs.jpg
STUBBORN FACTS

WOOF on January 26, 2008 at 06:28 am

THanks for the great graphic WOOF.

It makes it clear that the economic slowdown started in 2000, and that when the tax cuts went in place in 2002, that the economy stared picking up steam. Moreover, contrary to leftist ideology, revenue did not drop after the tax cuts, but clearly began to increase.

2000-2002 = tax rates too high, revenue dropping
2002-2005 = tax rates lowed = revenue increasing.

Carrick on January 26, 2008 at 07:55 am

Too high of taxes and an economic slowdown that preceded GWBs administration were the forces responsible for the the decline in revenue.

The other problem is we’ve been in a war-time situation for much of the rest of it, which obviously doesn’t help the expenditure side. 

But that doesn’t excuse the increases in expenditures on social programs that GWB promoted and sold to Congress and the public.

Carrick on January 26, 2008 at 07:59 am

r108

Consumer spending is obviously a major feature of a free enterprise economy, but continuance of supplying the demand is produced by reinvestment, which is why I called it “the lifeblood”.  Sorry you didn’t get that.

No need to be sorry. I was actually speaking to the American economy as it exists in real time and place rather than the American economy as described and explained by free market theory. Conventional wisdom has it that much “wealth” has been created through easy credit policies and the current era of financial derivative creation and that such “wealth” is not as sustainable as wealth created the old fashioned way.

I understand if you don’t feel comfortable discussing it.

lik

The health of the American economy rests on the wealth of the American economy. Spending is just a transfer of a portion of that wealth. In other words, the noun, not the verb.

That’s true as far as it goes but spending money that must be repaid is qualitatively different than money that doesn’t have to be repaid. Assuming debt for a purchase is not a bad thing in itself but there is such a thing as too much debt...wouldn’t you agree?


No passion so effectually robs the mind of all its powers of acting and reasoning as fear
*Edmund Burke*

MikeAdamson on January 26, 2008 at 10:33 am

I was actually speaking to the American economy as it exists in real time and place…

So was I.  The free market is not a “theory”; to the contrary, it is the natural behavior of human beings when they are free to choose how to transact with each other.

That’s true as far as it goes but spending money that must be repaid is qualitatively different than money that doesn’t have to be repaid.

The real difference is between consumer debt(which isn’t productive) and economic debt(which is productive, else the debt would not be incurred).  It’s all about return on investment, which funds the creation of the next round of goods to supply the demand.
More inconvenient truths for you.


"If the good men are silent only the wicked are heard.” - Edmund Burke

robert108 on January 26, 2008 at 10:45 am

The free market is not a “theory”; to the contrary, it is the natural behavior of human beings when they are free to choose how to transact with each other.

Until you acknowledge the difference between theory and practice then I don’t see how we can discuss the operation of the American economy.

The real difference is between consumer debt(which isn’t productive) and economic debt(which is productive, else the debt would not be incurred).

I’ve read this forwards and backwards and it makes no sense to me. Are you talking at the level of the individual or at the economy as a whole? Either way it doesn’t say anything useful that I can detect.


No passion so effectually robs the mind of all its powers of acting and reasoning as fear
*Edmund Burke*

MikeAdamson on January 26, 2008 at 10:55 am

I’ve read this forwards and backwards and it makes no sense to me. Are you talking at the level of the individual or at the economy as a whole? Either
way it doesn’t say anything useful that I can detect.

Let me ‘splain it to you in simple terms: When I put something on my credit card in order to consume it, I incur debt that must be repaid from some other source, since that purchase generates no income for me.
If I borrow money to make an investment, and that investment returns enough to not only pay the original debt(plus interest), but makes me a profit, then it’s economic debt, and results in economic growth.  In fact, as I said before several times, it’s the lifeblood of our economy.
With our economy, it’s always about the economic behavior of individual, independent citizens.  Our economy operates at the microeconomic level.

Your opinion about what is theory and what is practice in our economy is of no interest to me.  You try to use it as a device to dismiss what I have to say, and you are always spectacularly unsuccessful in attempting to do so.


"If the good men are silent only the wicked are heard.” - Edmund Burke

robert108 on January 26, 2008 at 11:09 am

Rest assured that I understand the difference between incurring debt for consumption purposes and for investment purposes.

Your opinion about what is theory and what is practice in our economy is of no interest to me.  You try to use it as a device to dismiss what I have to say, and you are always spectacularly unsuccessful in attempting to do so.

If I’m dismissing what you say, it’s only because what you are saying makes no sense to me or that I find what you’re saying laughable...this time it is the former. When I have tried to engage you in the past in conversation about the contemporary economy, you have responded with reference to how the free market system should work or how it would work absent external intervention. I was asking you a question about the concrete and material performance of the American economy...if you don’t want to answer that’s fine but quit blubbering about my dismissal of your unresponsive response.

Conventional wisdom has it that the economy has been and is being carried by consumer spending which, in large part, has been sustained by the assumption of debt. Do you agree or disagree?


No passion so effectually robs the mind of all its powers of acting and reasoning as fear
*Edmund Burke*

MikeAdamson on January 26, 2008 at 02:29 pm

I was asking you a question about the concrete and material performance of the American economy…

And I have answered it...twice in this thread.

Conventional wisdom has it that the economy has been and is being carried by consumer spending which, in large part, has been sustained by the assumption of debt. Do you agree or disagree?

“Conventional wisdom”?  I think that is an oxymoron.
I disagree with the “conventional wisdom” of the lefties who want to constantly attack the free enterprise system for short term political gain.


"If the good men are silent only the wicked are heard.” - Edmund Burke

robert108 on January 26, 2008 at 02:48 pm

Scholars like Woof never think “gee, the government’s running a deficit, maybe they shouldn’t spend so much money.” Instead, they piss and moan that people are actually getting to KEEP more of their own money...WAAAA! How dare those selfish bastards keep the money they earn, and not turn it over to their massahs to spend it properly. Of course, when I usually hear that crap I just assume that the speaker makes his/her living off of the taxpayers.

And that crappy economy with record tax receipts, virtually flat-lines unemployment, could have been better if Bush would have found a way to prop up the economy by letting Tyco, Enron, Global Crossing, Imclone, Worldcom, Adelphia, and the rest of the boys keep doing business, right.


""That’s the problem with you lefties, you’re not willing to get your hands dirty. I’d suggest you roll up your sleeves.”

-Jack Bauer

Hoss on January 26, 2008 at 03:33 pm

Government is not going to disappear Hoss.
Cut SS, cut medicaid, medicare, cut education, cut veterans benefits,
see what disappears.

You say you want a revolution
We’d all love to see the plan

WOOF on January 26, 2008 at 08:27 pm

Cut SS, cut medicaid, medicare, cut education, cut veterans benefits,
see what disappears.

Lazy, greedy slackers?

Kevin on January 26, 2008 at 08:34 pm

No republicans elected officials who support the cutting of these popular programs.  The vast majority of Americans support these programs and would cut other programs before these, like corporate tax breaks for shipping jobs overseas. But, by all means, please Kevin, get your boys to support the cutting of these programs.

Puzzlefeet on January 26, 2008 at 08:41 pm

An 80 year old widow + a wounded veteran + a working mom’s child ill with leukemia = Lazy, greedy slackers.

Kevin lives in a very bad dream world.


"Here lies, in honored glory, an American soldier, known but to God.”

THIS ELECTION IS ABOUT TWO THINGS: WINNING THE WAR ON TERRORISM AND SAVING THE SUPREME COURT.

pparets on January 26, 2008 at 08:50 pm

Damn, I hate when someone comes down with a genetic disorder or spina bifida, or mental retardation, how dare they not prepare for the horrendous costs that we will all have to pay.  Off with their heads!

Puzzlefeet on January 26, 2008 at 09:02 pm

Government is not going to disappear Hoss.

WOOF is right. The government has trained far too many people, too well, to rely wholly on government. That includes farmers, and corporations enjoying specially-crafted tax loopholes.

Ken McCracken on January 26, 2008 at 09:04 pm

Damn, I hate when someone comes down with a genetic disorder or spina bifida, or mental retardation, how dare they not prepare for the horrendous costs that we will all have to pay.  Off with their heads!

That’s why insurance exists.
Ask Mrs. Dorgan about that!

Kevin on January 26, 2008 at 09:06 pm

what happens when insurance runs out,it does you know.  May it never happen to you.

Puzzlefeet on January 26, 2008 at 09:23 pm

...corporations enjoying specially-crafted tax loopholes.

Which are a result of govt buying votes by promising jobs.  The corporations “enjoy” doing business where the climate is most friendly.  High taxes and restrictive regulations drive businesses away from some places, and favorable conditions attract them.  Nothing wrong with that.


"If the good men are silent only the wicked are heard.” - Edmund Burke

robert108 on January 26, 2008 at 09:25 pm

what happens when insurance runs out,it does you know.

I’ll just vote to have your money taken away with government force to pay for it, just like you advocate! LOL!

Kevin on January 26, 2008 at 09:34 pm

Waaa-waaa, I see you cryin those big crocodile tears, Kevin.  Life is so tough being you!

Puzzlefeet on January 26, 2008 at 09:45 pm

High taxes and restrictive regulations drive businesses away from some places, and favorable conditions attract them.  Nothing wrong with that.

Gee, how about low tax rates across the board. It is such a silly idea, who knows, it just might work.

Ken McCracken on January 26, 2008 at 09:46 pm

what happens when insurance runs out,it does you know. May it never happen to you.

Why not deal with the real problem, which is having affordable healthcare through a free market.  Insurance “runs out” when you can no longer pay for it, just like everything else.  Why pay for insurance when you can just pay the doctor?  Using insurance for regular medical care is the problem.  Insurance should only be necessary for catastrophic illness, and the premiums for that would be fairly cheap.  It’s the full coverage that’s expensive.


"If the good men are silent only the wicked are heard.” - Edmund Burke

robert108 on January 26, 2008 at 09:47 pm

Our byzantine tax code is a testament to just how little self-control our politicians have. Both sides of the aisle are to blame.

My apologies to you Byzantines out there.

Ken McCracken on January 26, 2008 at 09:50 pm

Gee, how about low tax rates across the board. It is such a silly idea, who knows, it just might work.

Agreed.  The real problem is that the guys(politicians) who set the tax rates also benefit from the proceeds from those taxes.  While some politicians are more dishonest than others, it’s a built-in recipe for manipulation and corruption.


"If the good men are silent only the wicked are heard.” - Edmund Burke

robert108 on January 26, 2008 at 09:57 pm

Our byzantine tax code is a testament to just how little self-control our politicians have

Ken: You might want to reconsider before you insult the Byzantines again!



Those who think the party or the country, will be “taught a lesson” by handing the levers of power over to the liberals will learn a lesson, but it will be at the expense of our country and her liberties. And there are no guarantees that the party or the country will come out stronger, more conservative or better positioned to win elections against the incumbent liberals.

Proof on January 26, 2008 at 10:05 pm

With low, flat taxes and a simple tax form, what oh what would the politicians have to do with all that time on their hands??!?

Ken McCracken on January 26, 2008 at 10:11 pm

With low, flat taxes and a simple tax form, what oh what would the politicians have to do with all that time on their hands??!?

The real “cure” for political corruption is to sharply limit spending to what is actually required to run the govt, cutting out all but the necessary social programs.  The method of collection doesn’t matter when taxes are low, due to reduced spending and an end to vote-buying.  The politicians would then be serving the public, rather than the other way around.


"If the good men are silent only the wicked are heard.” - Edmund Burke

robert108 on January 26, 2008 at 10:35 pm

r108

“Conventional wisdom”?  I think that is an oxymoron.
I disagree with the “conventional wisdom” of the lefties who want to constantly attack the free enterprise system for short term political gain.

I’ll try again and if you don’t want to answer then please just say so. It seems to me that the economy has been and is being carried by consumer spending which, in large part, has been sustained by the assumption of debt. Do you agree or disagree?


No passion so effectually robs the mind of all its powers of acting and reasoning as fear
*Edmund Burke*

MikeAdamson on January 27, 2008 at 09:36 am

Do you agree or disagree?

I’ll try one more time; I have ‘splained it to you several times now, and maybe you just don’t understand enough econ to get it.  The lifeblood of our free enterprise system is reinvestment, which keeps the goods flowing to supply the consumer demand.  It’s not one or the other; it’s both.  Your “conventional wisdom"(there’s that oxymoron again) is simply propaganda generated in order to try to bring down the free enterprise system and to justify a command system, since the population is too stupid to spend their money the way you socialists think it should be spent, thus the bashing of “consumer spending” and the falsehood that it is the foundation of our economy.  It’s really the choice between free, independent individuals making their own economic decisions(a “demand”, or microeconomic system), or an all-powerful govt mandating the economic decisions(a “command”, or macroeconomic system). 
BTW, if wisdom were “conventional”, it wouldn’t be wisdom, it would be popular opinion, nothing more.
It’s just another leftie putdown of individual independence and “free people making free choices”.
I really don’t want to have to keep ‘splaining this to you multiple times.


"If the good men are silent only the wicked are heard.” - Edmund Burke

robert108 on January 27, 2008 at 09:54 am

MikeA: Here’s what I find irritating about the way you maneuver your questions: you put your conclusion in the way you ask the question.  In another thread, you chided someone for asking you the classic, “when are you going to stop beating your wife”, which is what you do as a regular practice, and what you have done here.
You started by expressing your forgone conclusion as “conventional wisdom”, then asking me if I agreed or disagreed with it.  Your “conventional wisdom” is anything but, so I rightly rejected it as any sort of premise, but you didn’t get it, or were unwilling to have an honest dialogue, I don’t know which.
Try asking fair questions, without prejudiced premises, and I’ll be glad to answer.
It gets boring for me to have to go back to basic economic truths with you every time.
Maybe, as a socialist, you just don’t get how a demand system works.  It is fundamentally different from a command system, even one with an overlay of some consumer choice.


"If the good men are silent only the wicked are heard.” - Edmund Burke

robert108 on January 27, 2008 at 10:08 am

I’ll try again and if you don’t want to answer then please just say so. It seems to me that the economy has been and is being carried by consumer spending which, in large part, has been sustained by the assumption of debt. Do you agree or disagree?

You seem to have missed that I ditched the “conventional wisdom” tag in my last comment in favour of putting the responsibility for the opinion on myself alone. Hopefully this will permit you to either address my question or explicitly decline to answer my question without engaging in the economics theory review which, if I wanted, I would surely request.

You’ve always been helpful when I’ve inquired about free market stuff in the past, I don’t question your willingness to be helpful in the future and I won’t hesitate to call on you again when my questions lays in that area. Would you like to answer the present question or not? As I’ve indicated, if you’d rather not then I’ll drop this with no hard feelings.


No passion so effectually robs the mind of all its powers of acting and reasoning as fear
*Edmund Burke*

MikeAdamson on January 27, 2008 at 03:26 pm

Within the limits of your questions parameters, I disagree, as I have already said multiple times.  The premise upon which your question is based is a faulty one, in more ways than are within the scope of a blog comment to answer. Our economy has always been “carried"(your term, not mine) by the reinvestment cycle, as I have also said multiple times.
It would be more productive if you simply asked me what the sources of our prosperity are, rather than trying to bias the question by assuming that the free enterprise system is dependent on one particular aspect of it.
If I had to prioritize, I would say that private ownership and control of capital is the most important element, but there are many others, and they are all pretty important.


"If the good men are silent only the wicked are heard.” - Edmund Burke

robert108 on January 27, 2008 at 03:41 pm

Never mind.


No passion so effectually robs the mind of all its powers of acting and reasoning as fear
*Edmund Burke*

MikeAdamson on January 27, 2008 at 06:00 pm

Cut SS, cut medicaid, medicare, cut education, cut veterans benefits,
see what disappears.

Way to cherry-pick...you trying to tell me this is all the government pays for?


""That’s the problem with you lefties, you’re not willing to get your hands dirty. I’d suggest you roll up your sleeves.”

-Jack Bauer

Hoss on January 28, 2008 at 09:28 am

The only reason SS will be cut is if it’s not changed into a real investment program.  In its present form, it’s no more than a welfare program, with an increasing demand and a dwindling supply(non-retired workers to fund it).  Reforming it into a real investment program will avoid the inevitable cuts that are in the future for it, if it isn’t reformed.


"If the good men are silent only the wicked are heard.” - Edmund Burke

robert108 on January 28, 2008 at 09:42 am

This statement illustrates your economic illiteracy; the lifeblood of our economic system is reinvestment, not consumer spending. 
robert108 on January 25, 2008 at 03:05 pm

This statement illustrates your economic illiteracy; you invest or reinvest all you want. If I don’t spend what good is your investment? Got it? Or you need further explanation.

ellinas on January 28, 2008 at 09:43 am

e: As I have already ‘splained, consumer spending and reinvestment energize each other, but since consumer demand is eternal, the lifeblood of prosperity is the investment and reinvestment that makes it possible to continue to supply the demand.  It’s elementary econ.
Your typical leftie error is to make the erroneous assumption(as did Marx) that individual consumers can’t be trusted to make the “right” financial decisions; govt should be doing that for them.  Our way works better.


"If the good men are silent only the wicked are heard.” - Edmund Burke

robert108 on January 28, 2008 at 10:01 am

e: As I have already ‘splained, consumer spending and reinvestment energize each other, but since consumer demand is eternal, the lifeblood of prosperity is the investment and reinvestment that makes it possible to continue to supply the demand.  It’s elementary econ.
Your typical leftie error is to make the erroneous assumption(as did Marx) that individual consumers can’t be trusted to make the “right” financial decisions; govt should be doing that for them.  Our way works better.

robert108 on January 28, 2008 at 10:01 am

The above is an idiotic statement.

Once again: Invest or reinvest all you want. If I don’t buy what good is your investment?

ellinas on February 1, 2008 at 10:11 am

Once again: Invest or reinvest all you want. If I don’t buy what good is your investment?

On the most elementary level, you are confusing the particular and the general.  If you are talking about one particular investment, the money flows to where it is most profitable, which ensures a steady flow of capital to producing what people want.  In the general case, it is as I said.  What part of that are you unable to understand?


"If the good men are silent only the wicked are heard.” - Edmund Burke

robert108 on February 1, 2008 at 10:58 am

If the ability of consumers to buy is impaired or restrained then economic activity slows down until the consumers are better able to resume spending. I think that is e’s point and it’s quite right. Of course there are other factors which can influence an economy to slow but it is the consumption segment which is of importance now.


No passion so effectually robs the mind of all its powers of acting and reasoning as fear
*Edmund Burke*

MikeAdamson on February 1, 2008 at 02:12 pm

If the ability of consumers to buy is impaired or restrained then economic activity slows down until the consumers are better able to resume spending.

Not necessarily; they can either save or invest that money.  The only thing that can “impair” the ability of people to spend their money is lack of supply.
Your error is to lump all expenditures together as “consumption”, Mike.  It’s a leftie buzzword.


"If the good men are silent only the wicked are heard.” - Edmund Burke

robert108 on February 1, 2008 at 02:18 pm

MikeA: As I pointed out, e’s error was to confuse what happens to a particular product with what happens in the economy as a whole.  If demand for one product slackens, the money simply goes elsewhere.  It takes a real govt blunder to make demand decrease in an overall sense.  Something like returning to the gold standard would certainly accomplish that, for instance, but that goes far beyond any consumption patterns.


"If the good men are silent only the wicked are heard.” - Edmund Burke

robert108 on February 1, 2008 at 02:31 pm

The only thing that can “impair” the ability of people to spend their money is lack of supply.

I hope you’ll rethink that statement since I can think of an more likely reaaon for consumers to spend less money.

Your error is to lump all expenditures together as “consumption”, Mike.  It’s a leftie buzzword.

You’re barking up the wrong tree...I’m talking strictly about consumer spending on goods and services and not about saving and/or investing.

It takes a real govt blunder to make demand decrease in an overall sense.

Really? I’m starting to think you don’t believe in the economic cycle...you’re not really suggesting that aggregate demand never decreases as part of the normal course of events, are you?


No passion so effectually robs the mind of all its powers of acting and reasoning as fear
*Edmund Burke*

MikeAdamson on February 1, 2008 at 03:15 pm

...you’re not really suggesting that aggregate demand never decreases as part of the normal course of events, are you?

I already answered that one:

It takes a real govt blunder to make demand decrease in an overall sense.

Govt blunders are a part of the “normal course of events”.

I’ll repeat: not all spending is consumption of goods and services.  If money is perceived as “tight”, or if the MSM hollers “recession” long enough, people delay major purchases, out of fear of not being able to meet their regular needs.  This produces the desired(by the Dems/MSM) result; a short-term slowdown that they can use to either bash a Republican administration, or as an excuse for increased govt spending(with the accompanying higher tax rates) that characterize the flawed Keynesian thinking of the Dems.  Either way, they “win” by means of propaganda.
Of course, there are normally times of greater and lesser economic growth in a free economy, but it takes govt to produce contraction.  Recession is defined as two or more consecutive quarters of negative growth(contraction).

In either case, what is good for the Dems is bad for the country.


"If the good men are silent only the wicked are heard.” - Edmund Burke

robert108 on February 1, 2008 at 05:28 pm

Your response leaves me flabbergasted...truly the Emperor has no clothes. I can’t in good conscience continue so I’ll thank you for your thoughts.


No passion so effectually robs the mind of all its powers of acting and reasoning as fear
*Edmund Burke*

MikeAdamson on February 1, 2008 at 08:58 pm

Your response leaves me flabbergasted...truly the Emperor has no clothes. I can’t in good conscience continue so I’ll thank you for your thoughts.

I don’t understand your nonsense response, other than to thank you for sharing your feelings with me about my economically accurate answer.  I obviously harpooned one or more of your sacred cows.  I would be more appreciative of some details, but I guess I will have to be content with your feelings.  So sad.

To repeat, your idea of “the economic cycle” is, like your concept of “conventional wisdom” a product of your personal beliefs about markets, not the reality of them.


"If the good men are silent only the wicked are heard.” - Edmund Burke

robert108 on February 1, 2008 at 09:19 pm

Bottom line Robert108 invest or reinvest all you want
and anywhere you want. If I the consumer don’t spend or do not have enough to spend, you can shove your investment up your ass or any ivestors ass for that matter.
I took my time reading your and MikeAdamson’s posts on this thread and have concluded that you are willing to not only make an ass of yourself but to dismiss sound argument’s as false for the sake of not allowing a “leftie” win the debate even if said “leftie” is correct.

ellinas on February 1, 2008 at 10:56 pm

More ignorant nonsense personal attack from you, e.  Par for the course for you.  Any facts or logic to back up your blather?
You can read all you like, but if you don’t have the knowledge to understand what you read, GIGO.


"If the good men are silent only the wicked are heard.” - Edmund Burke

robert108 on February 1, 2008 at 11:03 pm
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