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Thursday, July 12, 2007

Earl Pomeroy Applauds Passing Of “Let’s Make College More Expensive” Bill

This is so absurd.

Congressman Earl Pomeroy today voted for legislation that would boost college financial aid by about $18 billion nationally and by $14 million in North Dakota over the next five years. The College Cost Reduction Act of 2007 (H.R. 2669), which passed by a vote of 273 to 149, would make the single largest investment in college financial aid since the 1944 GI Bill, directly benefiting the over 17,000 North Dakota students who take out need-based loans each year at 4-year public schools.

Among other things, this legislation will cut interest rates on subsidized student loans in half over the next five years, limit the percentage of income students spend repaying loans, and expand both the eligibility and size of the Pell Grant program. The legislation pays for itself by reducing excessive federal subsidies paid to lenders in the college loan industry by $19 billion. It also includes nearly $1 billion in federal budget deficit reduction.

Meanwhile, because the government would be picking up more of the tab for college education, universities across the nation will go right on raising tuition rates with little fear that the increased expense will drive students away.  Because why should they be afraid of that?  If it gets too expensive people like Earl Pomeroy will just throw more tax dollars at it.

What’s scary is that this becomes a vicious cycle.  Some people can’t afford college.  The government creates subsidies to help these people go to college.  Colleges raise tuition now that more students can afford to attend creating more people who can’t afford to go, so the government creates more subsidies again.  Rinse.  Repeat.

But this is one of those areas here the left makes an emotional argument rather than a fact-based one.  Any opposition to stuff like this, even opposition based on the fact that subsidies drive tuition up, is met with “Why don’t you want people to go to college?” from the left.

Comments

Avatar for Steve

"Well, the world needs ditch diggers, too.”

Steve on July 12, 2007 at 07:21 pm
Avatar for brad

ya’ll are retards on this site…

strive to obtain a clue....

there are several of us out there that find ya’ll dumber than a sack of hammers.....

when I say several, what I mean is, about a million.

brad on July 12, 2007 at 10:30 pm

Do you have anything substantive to add brad or did you just want to demonstrate your limited vocabulary?

likwidshoe on July 12, 2007 at 10:38 pm
Avatar for brad

face the mirror dipshit.....your days are limited…
the far right has shown what it can do....good job folks....nice try...step down and let the majority fix the “GIANT” mess you have created…

admit it, be real, you had a shot...a real and serious shot with complete control of house, senate and oval office.....you “dicked’ it up...it’s ok...we all know ...we are all Americans...You couldn’t handle it…

we forgive you....now piss off and let the majority fix this mess you have gotten us into....

brad on July 12, 2007 at 10:45 pm

I guess you answered my question.

Did you have any thoughts on the actual topic, by chance? You’re going off on the “the far right” and saying that they “dicked” up something. Who knows what you’re talking about. It certainly isn’t anything having to do with H.R. Bill 2669.

likwidshoe on July 12, 2007 at 10:50 pm
Avatar for brad

so then....

rich people should be the ones that go to college and poor people should make shoes?

If we help the poor go to college, then college will become expensive? (this is your argument)

So let’s not create self-sufficient citizens…

this site is so lame....such a double standard..."Improve our skills” was the rant a couple weeks ago...."ok, I’ll improve myself by going to college”........

I just can not keep up with the double speak, lock-step, idiots on this site…

you are not even conservative....just a group of simple minded idiots spewing out a commmon threan of ignorance....

college professors are overpaid?  in ND?  say it...please tell me that ND teachers are overpaid???

please, please say it...please...?

brad on July 12, 2007 at 11:02 pm
Avatar for brad

I hate to go so far off topic...but

what is wrong with you Rob?? 

why do you want so many to “swim with an anvil”?
you seem bright.  You seem to actually care....I mean you have a blog and you attend to it.....do you give a shit?....or is it just the media and propaganda that have you spouting such contrary positions?

I understand you are conservative, but why do you post crap like this post?  it just makes you look stupid....

???don’t give money to people who want to go to college because then the colleges will just raise the price????

are you really this retarded?

did you just say that?

please tell me I miss-quoted you.....

or will you isolate a fragment and tear it apart?

brad on July 12, 2007 at 11:10 pm

brad - rich people should be the ones that go to college and poor people should make shoes?

Nobody has said that except you.

If we help the poor go to college, then college will become expensive? (this is your argument)

No it’s not. The argument is that if you subsidize the cost, the colleges can raise prices without fearing a consumer backlash.

So let’s not create self-sufficient citizens…

Your straw man.

this site is so lame....such a double standard..."Improve our skills” was the rant a couple weeks ago...."ok, I’ll improve myself by going to college”........

I just can not keep up with the double speak, lock-step, idiots on this site…

The idiot here is you brad. You’ve been misreading and misstating the position.

you are not even conservative....just a group of simple minded idiots spewing out a commmon threan of ignorance....

This is rich. Why don’t you tell us again what you believe Rob’s position is on this issue?

brad only contribution so far has been juvenile insults - “retards”, “dumber than a sack of hammers”, “dipshit”, “piss off”, “double speak, lock-step, idiots”, “simple minded idiots”, “stupid”, “retarded”.

Looks like brad needs to go to college to learn a few more words.

likwidshoe on July 12, 2007 at 11:30 pm

Rob was right!

But this is one of those areas here the left makes an emotional argument rather than a fact-based one.  Any opposition to stuff like this, even opposition based on the fact that subsidies drive tuition up, is met with “Why don’t you want people to go to college?” from the left.

And like clockwork, an emotionally-based argument is given by a foul-mouthed individual named brad.

likwidshoe on July 12, 2007 at 11:32 pm
Avatar for brad

enjoy!!!
ignorance is thine.

whether tuition is afforded by rich or poor it goes up...just in different institutions...those that can afford Yale..increase Yale’s tuition...those that afford Valley City etc....

both of you avoided my questions...as I knew you would...congrats...many read this blog for “exactly what it is”......

prove to all of us that you are not shallow and short-sighted......

Should Johnny be able to attend college on a grant?

brad on July 12, 2007 at 11:37 pm
Avatar for brad

Not a week ago I argued on this site about minimum wage.  The argument was “improve yourself if you want to improve your wage”.....

so Catch 22???

please strive to understand the topic as it will take far tooooo long to type it all out for you....

brad on July 12, 2007 at 11:40 pm

brad - both of you avoided my questions...as I knew you would...congrats...many read this blog for “exactly what it is”......

If you paused your insulting long enough, you just might notice that your questions have been answered.

Should Johnny be able to attend college on a grant?

Sure, as long as it doesn’t come out of my pocket and as long as you realize that making college “free” will make it stupendously expensive.

likwidshoe on July 12, 2007 at 11:44 pm
Avatar for brad

and ....of course Rob was right…

what blog do you think I am on???...congrats on being a “lock-step” right wing retard....

a true sign of intelligence is to acknowledge ignorance...this is how we learn...by being wrong...and we are all wrong from time to time...truth being told..we strengthen our position by accepting this fact...it shows intelligence, it shows maturity, it shows growth...etc…

sometimes I am wrong (lots) and sometimes you are wrong..(like, frickin now)....
gain some readership, some respect and some conservative ideal by...re-packaging this last post...dude..it is in-defensible…

or not....character test #1 ready?  engage…

brad on July 12, 2007 at 11:46 pm
Avatar for brad

would you rather Johnny be on welfare, fuel assistance, food stamps, etc...pay his tuition or pay his way?

question:  I lobby the county to support a program.  I need ten grand of tax payer money...I can turn “one” teenager away from the system...from crime...from detention, from jail…

is that ten grand well spent?

of course it is.

if I pay someone tuition, or a portion...so that the “might” become self-suficient…

is that a good investment in the long run?

tell me I’m wrong?
shoot holes in this ideal.

I keep one out of the system it is worth nearly one million dollars between ages 12 and 21…

house em in college or house em in jail...(granted it is not quite that extreme...but jail is more expensive than Harvard)

brad on July 12, 2007 at 11:52 pm

brad - and ....of course Rob was right…

what blog do you think I am on???...congrats on being a “lock-step” right wing retard....

No, Rob was right because you came onto the scene and proved him right. And you’re continuing to prove him right with your insults.

a true sign of intelligence is to acknowledge ignorance...this is how we learn...by being wrong...and we are all wrong from time to time...truth being told..we strengthen our position by accepting this fact...it shows intelligence, it shows maturity, it shows growth...etc…

sometimes I am wrong (lots) and sometimes you are wrong..(like, frickin now)....
gain some readership, some respect and some conservative ideal by...re-packaging this last post...dude..it is in-defensible…

Then bring an argument as to how it is “wrong” brad. Your insults do not an argument make.

would you rather Johnny be on welfare, fuel assistance, food stamps, etc...pay his tuition or pay his way?

False choice. There is more than one solution here. You’re telling us that we have to pick between government welfare and government welfare. You’re completely leaving out the free market and personal responsibility.

question:  I lobby the county to support a program.  I need ten grand of tax payer money...I can turn “one” teenager away from the system...from crime...from detention, from jail…

is that ten grand well spent?

of course it is.

This is another false choice. Is tax money the only option? No, of course it isn’t. Was it ten grand well spent? That remains to be seen in light of the question - what are the other options? You act as if there are no other options.

if I pay someone tuition, or a portion...so that the “might” become self-suficient…

is that a good investment in the long run?

I don’t know and you don’t either. Maybe, maybe not. It all would depend on the person receiving the money/help.

It’s nice to see that you said, “if I pay...”. This is quite a different situation from making all of the rest of us pay through taxes. If you want to pay brad, then that’s your choice.

likwidshoe on July 12, 2007 at 11:53 pm
Avatar for brad

Stuff this in your pipe and tell me I’m wrong.

Jesus was a Democrat.

great topic, have Rob Blog it....

brad on July 12, 2007 at 11:54 pm
Avatar for brad

use your brain. use your intellect.

brad on July 12, 2007 at 11:56 pm

brad - Stuff this in your pipe and tell me I’m wrong.

Jesus was a Democrat.

Doubt it. Jesus was against theft.

But I really don’t give a rat’s ass. Stuff this in your pipe and smoke it - I’m an agnostic.

Try bringing something relevant to the table brad.

likwidshoe on July 13, 2007 at 12:02 am
Avatar for Ronald Walter

Billionaire dropouts

College is too expensive.  You’re stupid if you go to college.  All that money is wasted along with the time and space.

Get a job.  It’s costs less to go to work than it does to go to college, plus you get paid.

Ronald Walter on July 13, 2007 at 05:30 am
Avatar for Mark Dorroh

Probably few if any of you are old enough to recall the bad old days of higher ed. funding, when your average tenured professor earned slightly less than an assembly line worker with a few years seniority.

Weird but true. Also viciously underpaid were public school teachers, cops, firefighters and other personnel essential to the functioning of a safe, healthy democracy. When I was in high school (in the late ‘60s, when dinosaurs roamed the earth), nearly all our teachers took summer jobs, not just to keep themselves from getting bored or to build up their IRAs, but to have enough income to pay their bills.

That has, blissfully, changed. Those classes of worker charged with some of the most difficult and dangerous jobs are now, in America, mostly pretty well paid.

Inevitably, during the lean years, educators took other benefits in exchange for low wages. Fireproof tenure was one, getting organized and engaging in collective bargaining was another. Both were reasonable attempts at solutions, but both have had unintended consequences which bear on our discussion here.

Fireproof tenure has allowed some pretty loathsome ideologues to continue spewing their rabid, anti-Free Will nonsense all over generations of students, and the institutional intellectual sterility engendered thereby has manifested in speech codes on the very campuses on which open discussion is most to be celebrated.

Unions in public schools have been a net good, but then general public fails to understand how the sums of dollars per student have risen steadily and above the general rate of inflation while test scores and other indicators of scholastic performance have continued mostly in the other direction.

The answer is utterly prosaic: Surveys I’ve seen indicate the biggest predictor of student achievement is the number of parents in the home and the level of educational attainment those parents enjoy.

If and when the underlying societal maladies - homes with no books aside from the Bible and phone book, but a TV in every room, and all turned on all day and half the night, parents to whom any attempt to establish classroom order through discipline constitutes grounds for a civil suit, etc. - then teachers will be able to resume teaching instead of being babysitters, prison guards and nannies to our children. ‘Tis a consummation devoutly to be wished.

But no amount of new funding for any level of public education will affect those things. I’ve been told by a veteran career educator (Dr. James Rooks, former Prince George County VA Superintendent of Schools) that above a floor level of funding for books that aren’t out of date, computers that work and a roof that doesn’t leak, appropriating more money will only lead to a steadily diminishing return on investment.

All that said, if we want good teachers, we must pay them well, K-Post Grad. They will still geek for less money than they might make elsewhere, because like cops and firefighters, they’re not just in it for the money. But thinking you can attract intellectual talent as prices below their market value is wrongheaded and silly. We all have our little missions from God, but we expect a reasonable rate of remuneration when doing hard, tricky work that not all that many people are willing - or qualified - to do.

So quit beefing about the high cost of education. As to whether it is spurred on by massive government intervention of the sort represented by Pell Grants, I’m agnostic. But that’s not the issue here, and I believe focusing on it distracts us from the complex and multi-layered truth about how to “fix” an educational system which actually, on balance, works pretty well, and at far less than Defense Department prices ...

Remember, “First, do no harm.”

Yer buddy,
Rapidly Aging Republican Media Creep W/Attitude
(a.k.a. Mark Dorroh, Richmond)

Mark Dorroh on July 13, 2007 at 06:34 am
Avatar for Mark Dorroh

PS- Dear Brad, please quit consuming cocaine and Budwiser for breakfast. It’s not a diet consistent with reasoned debate among intelligent adults.

And thank you for your support,
Rarmcwa

Mark Dorroh on July 13, 2007 at 06:36 am

Jesus was a Democrat.

Here’s what Jesus the “Democrat” said about the “assault rifle” of his day…

Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. Luke 22:36

Wouldn’t make it as a good Democrat today, would he?


A troll is someone who only wants to stir up trouble, not have an honest debate.  Some signs that a poster is a troll:
* Dodges questions from other posters * Refuses to give sources
* When one of its arguments is shown to be false, either ignores the proof or moves the goalposts.  Heh. (From the LGF faq)

Proof on July 13, 2007 at 06:54 am

Mark Dorroh - So quit beefing about the high cost of education.

Right. It’s only your tax money. Who cares about all of the time you spend working for an inefficient government?

Get real Mark.

likwidshoe on July 13, 2007 at 07:47 am
Avatar for Fred B.

The nice thing about being a college professor is that your children may receive a scholarship from certain colleges due to professional courtesy or some sort of reciprocity.  A great untaxed benefit that other families may not have such ready access to.

No matter how high the cost of college this benefit remains.  Perhaps Representative Pomeroy should look into taxing this benefit so money can be raised for bigger subsidies for college loans.

Fred B. on July 13, 2007 at 08:19 pm
Rob
Rob
17396 comments
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when I say several, what I mean is, about a million.

So, you’re telling me this site has a million readers?

I’m more successful than I thought.


When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

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Rob on July 13, 2007 at 08:32 pm
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