Do We Really Want To Criminalize Bad Parenting?

During a recent appearance on Rick Jensen’s show on KHND AM1310 we talked about a bill before the North Dakota legislature that would allow parents whose children are chronically tardy or missing from school to be charged with a crime. The Grand Forks Herald has the story:

BISMARCK — Parents who are chronically negligent in seeing that their children attend school could face misdemeanor criminal charges under a bill heard in the House Wednesday.
Senate Bill 2217 was introduced by Mandan legislators after school officials there convinced them that there is a growing problem with grade school students missing large amounts of school.
“This is a very important step that has to be taken,” said Sen. Dwight Cook, R-Mandan. “Unfortunately, we have a real truancy problem.”
Cook and others who favor the bill, including Mandan Superintendent Wilfred Volesky, said elementary students who miss a lot of school are being set up to fall behind and drop out when they reach 16.
Most high school drop-outs did not develop the habit of skipping school after they got to high school, Volesky said. It results from how their families enforced attendance in grade school.
“Truancy at this level is more often a parent issue,” he said.

For obvious reasons, not sending your kids to school on time or not sending them at all is a bad situation. That being said, when we debate issues like this I think we need to ask ourselves one question: Do we parents want to raise our children, or do we want the government to raise them for us?
By criminalizing what amounts to simple bad parenting we open the door to some places we don’t want to go. What happens if they want to criminalize, say, children being too fat? Or certain types of disciplinary techniques like spanking? Other states, in fact, have looked at criminalizing spanking. That particular policy hasn’t met with a lot of success to date, but clearly the direction we’re headed is a situation where the government dictates appropriate parenting policy and the parents themselves are simply in-the-home surrogates tasked with carrying that policy out under threat of criminal charges.
A couple of decades ago people would have laughed at the idea that smoking in front of their own children in their own vehicles would be illegal. Today, however, that’s fast becoming a reality.
Now, I know there are bad parents in the world. I myself am not a perfect parent (though I assure you that my kid gets to school on time), and I often hear of parenting horror stories that make me cringe and feel empathy toward the children. But I firmly believe that most parents are good parents, and I think it would be folly to undermine and even subjugate parents in a misguided attempt to fix the small minority of parents who aren’t good parents.
It’s hard to oppose laws like this because in doing so the proponents of them accuse you of not caring about the children, or being in favor of things like truancy. Or being in favor of exposing children to second hand smoke. But what we’ve got to realize is that the world is an imperfect place. There are always going to be bad parents who make bad decisions no matter what the government does about it. Remember, the government shouldn’t try to do good. The government should simply refrain from doing evil.
I am not sure there is any freedom more basic than our freedom to start families and raise our children as we see fit. How would we still be able to call this a “free country” if we aren’t even in charge of raising our own children?

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  • http://Array jimmypop

    this may seem like a logical solution, but it does not address the actual problem. this level of punishment is worthless. parents that are actually bad parents could care less about ANOTHER court date. a better punishment would be to take away their parents free housing, government money and food stamps. do that and the kid would be early every day.

  • Buzz

    c. I dont know where you live but I can say for sure it is NOT Chicago. The choice I had when I bought my last house, when my children were going to start school was this. Have them go to a school where they pass through a metal detector on there way in and then past the uniformed armed police that HAVE to be there to keep order. Or I could buy a house where they could go to school in peace. I decided to pay the taxes and not have to wonder if my kids were going to get jumped by a group of “minorities”. And you are lying through your teeth if you tell me you would not do the same.

  • jimmypop

    That’s actually the reason I waited so long to disclose my age, fools like you use it to disregard my views.

    you know you can be wrong at any age. like it or not, youth often dont know as much as the adults around them. although they sure like to tell us they do…… anyway…..

    the greatest gift you can have is knowing your weaknesses. when you learn that, you will be set for life.

  • Rezistik

    So Rezistik is 16 years old.

    That explains a lot.

    And you’re a hateful fool.

    Vastly more money can be made selling guns or drugs than the average person can hope to make. And until the strictest of laws are imposed there is no hope. You can not build enough prisons, so the only reasonable alternative will have to be execution for any one possessing a firearm during a felony coupled with execution for any drug trafficking. And I don’t mean the normal death sentence. I am talking about digging big holes, and then pop..pop..pop..filling them up. There you have it, problem solved, by Buzz.

    We have more than enough prisons, we have the largest prison population in the world.

  • Rezistik

    Get back to me on that when your 30.

    That’s actually the reason I waited so long to disclose my age, fools like you use it to disregard my views.

    I live in a very culturally diverse neighborhood and two of my best friends are black, their grades eclipse mine and make me look quite the fool.

    Not as large a fool as you however.

  • robert108

    I attend AP classes and have already earned college credit at the tender age of 16.

    Congratulations on your individual achievement! You are an exception to the usual outcome of public education, and you did it by your own dedication. Whether you know it or not, you are, at heart, a conservative. You still confuse cause and effect, though.

  • JustMe

    I’ve said it before, but I feel the need to say it again. It is not the state’s responsibility to educate the children. No matter which “common good” you are striving for an entitlement program does not solve the problem, only muddies the issues. I’m not in favor of “truancy” I’m in favor of parental responsibility and in favor of home education.

    So what if a kid is constantly late for the public education system? Have you seen how it works? Every year they basically cover the same information making marginal efforts to progress to a new level of study. They utilize the spiral method of dumbing down our children.

    Want to eliminate “truancy”? Eliminate the public education system. It is the first entitlement program children have exposure. Have parents be responsible for their children’s supervision and education ALL DAY. Parents should be able to teach their children basic literacy and rudimentary math skills. If they are unable to teach these skills, they will employ someone to teach and supervise their children (or at least someone to supervise their child/ren, who inadvertently teaches them). A free market to education ensures competent educators are employed and that the children are raised in an environment that reflects the religious/moral beliefs of the family. *OMGoodness, this eliminates that whole church and state argument that people have about the public education system. MY WORD how could we ever endure something crazy like that?!* If a child doesn’t get these things it isn’t necessarily going to become some state fund sucking leech. There will always be the need to employ janitorial staff and trash collectors. Those who strive to have a level of employment higher than this will strive to learn more.

    Don’t want to eliminate public schools? Determine the true cause behind the truancy rather than assuming it is bad parenting. It could be any number of issues bad schools or bored gifted children that are sick of hearing the same crap for the 10th year in a row, or children that are struggling with school because they never caught on to some of the basic concepts but were passed along anyways and now fail to comprehend the subject matter that is at hand or even children avoiding a full day with someone that abuses them. There may be even other issues to consider outside of bad parenting.

    Outside of abuse, the government has no place in the family and that includes the education of the children

  • robert108

    All I’m doing is pointing out facts. Being a realist is not the same as being a racist.

    All racists use the same rationalization.

  • Rezistik

    Congratulations on your individual achievement! You are an exception to the usual outcome of public education, and you did it by your own dedication. Whether you know it or not, you are, at heart, a conservative. You still confuse cause and effect, though.

    As I have stated numerous times before, I am a classical liberal in most things, I wish to eliminate the welfare society, however I believe the only way to do so is to raise education funding and slowly weed out poverty.

    Poverty will always exist but we should attempt to minimize it.

    All I’m doing is pointing out facts. Being a realist is not the same as being a racist.

    All racists use the same rationalization.

    Buzz, you’ve forced me and 108 to agree on something, you’re a racist and sickening person.

  • Freddie

    Buzz, your overt racism is somewhat embarassing. The poor performance of students is not due to their race. Please rethink your prejudices.

  • Buzz

    I don’t like public education that dumbs down to an agenda.

    Public schools have AP classes for the gifted students. Well funded public schools are as good or better than private. Assuming you dont have a high minority population, then forget it.

    That is why I live in a high tax area, taxes are like a filter. The bigger the filter the less shit gets through it.

  • Buzz

    Here is the top three high schools in Illinois, lets see if we have any similarity.

    School Information: Student Ethnicity:
    New Trier Township H S Winnetka
    385 Winnetka Ave
    Winnetka, IL 60093-4295
    (847) 446-7000

    Grade Range: 9-12
    Enrollment: 3027
    Full-Time Teachers: 244
    Students per Teacher: 12

    W White/Non-Hispanic 88.3%
    B Black/Non-Hispanic 0.7%
    H Hispanic 2.4%
    A Asian/Pacific Islander 8.2%
    N American Indian/Alaska Native 0.4%
    Ethnicity Data Source (2006)

    School Information: Student Ethnicity:
    Lake Forest High School
    1285 N McKinley Rd
    Lake Forest, IL 60045-1371
    (847) 234-3600

    Grade Range: 9-12
    Enrollment: 1738
    Full-Time Teachers: 125
    Students per Teacher: 14

    W White/Non-Hispanic 93.3%
    B Black/Non-Hispanic 0.8%
    H Hispanic 1.4%
    A Asian/Pacific Islander 3.5%
    N American Indian/Alaska Native 0.0%
    Ethnicity Data Source (2006)

    School Information: Student Ethnicity:
    Hinsdale Central High School
    55th And Grant St
    Hinsdale, IL 60521-4578
    (630) 570-8000

    Grade Range: 9-12
    Enrollment: 2560
    Full-Time Teachers: 170
    Students per Teacher: 15

    W White/Non-Hispanic 82.0%
    B Black/Non-Hispanic 2.2%
    H Hispanic 3.2%
    A Asian/Pacific Islander 12.4%
    N American Indian/Alaska Native 0.1%
    Ethnicity Data Source (2006)

    Anyone have to point to the common thread here? Hmmm…..Anyone?

  • Buzz

    Assuming you dont have a high minority population, then forget it.

  • robert108

    Poverty will always exist but we should attempt to minimize it.

    Since FDR, and through LBJ, Carter and Clinton, govt has tried to end or minimize poverty through govt redistribution. Any intelligent person should have learned long ago that such methods simply don’t work. The best way to minimize poverty is to incentivize achievement; let achievers keep most of what they earn, and they will have incentive to keep earning, which makes jobs for more and more people, who can afford to purchase a good education for their children. The present public education system was never intended to be about achievement, but about a minimum standard of education for the masses; in other words, mediocrity. It has achieved that, and continues to do so. You can’t expect a Yugo to perform like a Ferrari.
    The key to poverty and education is to support prosperity. So far, the free market economic system is the best way to do that, especially when the role of govt is limited by a Constitutional system designed to do so.

  • Buzz

    And here is the bottom three.

    School Information: Student Ethnicity:
    King College Prep High School
    4445 S Drexel Bl
    Chicago, IL 60653-3551
    (773) 535-1180

    Grade Range: 9-12
    Enrollment: 885
    Full-Time Teachers: 60
    Students per Teacher: 15

    W White/Non-Hispanic 1.4%
    B Black/Non-Hispanic 90.2%
    H Hispanic 2.7%
    A Asian/Pacific Islander 3.6%
    N American Indian/Alaska Native 0.0%
    Ethnicity Data Source (2006)

    School Information: Student Ethnicity:
    Schurz High School
    3601 N Milwaukee Av
    Chicago, IL 60641-3093
    (773) 534-3420

    Grade Range: 9-12
    Enrollment: 2417
    Full-Time Teachers: 166
    Students per Teacher: 15

    W White/Non-Hispanic 8.9%
    B Black/Non-Hispanic 5.3%
    H Hispanic 81.2%
    A Asian/Pacific Islander 2.0%
    N American Indian/Alaska Native 0.2%
    Ethnicity Data Source (2006)

    School Information: Student Ethnicity:
    Tilden Career Communty Academy Hs
    4747 S Union Ave
    Chicago, IL 60609-4437
    (773) 535-1625

    Grade Range: 9-12
    Enrollment: 1429
    Full-Time Teachers: 117
    Students per Teacher: 12

    W White/Non-Hispanic 3.7%
    B Black/Non-Hispanic 65.9%
    H Hispanic 26.0%
    A Asian/Pacific Islander 2.4%
    N American Indian/Alaska Native 0.1%
    Ethnicity Data Source (2006)

    Any bells going off yet?

  • Buzz

    Buzz, you’ve forced me and 108 to agree on something, you’re a racist and sickening person.

    Get back to me on that when your 30.

  • Buzz

    Buzz, take your racism elsewhere,

    All I’m doing is pointing out facts. Being a realist is not the same as being a racist. There seem to be a trend in our society, how is that my fault.

  • http://northerngleaner.blogspot.com/ Gene

    I’m against public education. The private sector would do so much better.

  • Buzz

    This should be interesting, the Democratic mind in action!

    If it could be fixed it would of been already. With the laws on the books now, it can only get worse. The gangs out number the police, everyone who wants a gun has one, regardless of there felony status. And you can buy literally any drug in any city in the entire US.

    Vastly more money can be made selling guns or drugs than the average person can hope to make. And until the strictest of laws are imposed there is no hope. You can not build enough prisons, so the only reasonable alternative will have to be execution for any one possessing a firearm during a felony coupled with execution for any drug trafficking. And I don’t mean the normal death sentence. I am talking about digging big holes, and then pop..pop..pop..filling them up. There you have it, problem solved, by Buzz.

  • sayanything-4625

    Well funded public schools are as good or better than private.

    Right, that’s why all the politicians in DC send their kids to the local public school. OH, that’s right they don’t.

    We’re often told that public schools are underfunded. In the District, the spending figure cited most commonly is $8,322 per child, but total spending is close to $25,000 per child — on par with tuition at Sidwell Friends, the private school Chelsea Clinton attended in the 1990s…For comparison, total per pupil spending at D.C. area private schools — among the most upscale in the nation — averages about $10,000 less. For most private schools, the difference is even greater…So why force most D.C. children into often dilapidated and underperforming public schools when we could easily offer them a choice of private schools? Some would argue that private schools couldn’t or wouldn’t serve the District’s special education students, at least not affordably.

    DC spends $25,000 per student, as much as the tony private school that Chelsea Clinton attended and they still have dilapidated buildings? They under perform the rest of the nation? By your own words Buzz they should be at the top of nation, producing scholars by the thousands. They aren’t, why? Could it be that spending money has no relationship to education or that the money we spend on education does not actually go towards educating students? What are they doing you ask,

    D.C. Schools Chancellor Michelle Rhee is energetic and motivated, and State Superintendent of Education Deborah Gist offers helpful answers to work e-mails at 10 p.m. on Sundays. These are dedicated leaders, and as long as there are government-operated schools in Washington, we’re lucky to have them at the helm. But we are squandering their talent by asking them to manage a bureaucracy so Byzantine it would give Rube Goldberg an aneurysm.

    Its almost like we have made the education system a patronage system more concerned with unions and jobs for votes than education. Who knew?

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/04/04/AR2008040402921.html

  • Buzz

    That’s what I thought. Any there are your facts Bat, you cranky old bitch.

  • Rezistik

    You are judgmental now, but you do not have the data-set of knowledge to give you the wisdom to recognize what works and what does not.

    Time will tell whether you learn. Some do, others do not.

    I’m the judgmental one? Says the hateful homophobe..

  • carrick

    Buzz:

    Assuming you dont have a high minority population, then forget it.

    Like all those Jews that attend Erasmus Hall High School. What a “loser” place that is!

  • MMA Grappler

    Do We Really Want To Criminalize Bad Parenting?

    Yes.

    Let’s start by making it illegal for unmarried teenage girls to take babies home from the hospital.

    Then let’s make it illegal for anyone to get fertility treatment unless they have the financial ability to raise and care for a child.

  • http://cbullitt.wordpress.com/ cbullitt

    What happens if they want to criminalize, say, children being too fat?
    But they will–they are going to be paying for the healthcare they will then deny us because treating whatever ailment we have just won’t be cost effective.

  • sayanything-4625

    For the sake of argument, we’ll assume your argument is true, what’s your point? Should we strip funds from black and hispanic schools? Force them to go to white schools? Give them the choice to attend private schools? Kick them out of schools? Send them to vocational school? This should be interesting, the Democratic mind in action!

  • http://sayanythingblog.com/readers/entry/homosexuality_is_wrong_-_a_compendium move_zig

    I attend AP classes and have already earned college credit at the tender age of 16.

    So Rezistik is 16 years old.

    That explains a lot.

  • Bat One

    Any [sic] there are your facts Bat, you cranky old bitch.

    Buzz,

    WTF? I’m not even a part of this thread… yet! Greg, Rob, R108, Carrick, and even Freddie are doing quite well enough goading you into making a fool of yourself without any help from me.

    Incidentally, there’s probably a Sylvan Learning Center nearby you. I’m sure they could find you a place in one of their English comprehension classes. And if you paid them a little extra, they might allow you to sit away from all those racially impure other students.

  • Rezistik

    That’s what I thought. Any there are your facts Bat, you cranky old bitch.

    Buzz, take your racism elsewhere, you make it too difficult to debate honestly with people who have different viewpoints and make all liberals look racist.

    You disgust me.

  • Bat One

    Please rethink your prejudices.

    Freddie,

    RE-think??? Please explain what sort of “thought” goes into racial bigotry in the first place.

  • Rezistik

    No. We don’t.

    Keep your government out of my society.

    Kthxbai.

  • http://northerngleaner.blogspot.com/ Gene

    Yes, I agree Rob.

    I wasn’t clear. Vouchers.

    I don’t like public education that dumbs down to an agenda.

  • robert108

    Well funded public schools are as good or better than private.

    Wrong! Most private schools are funded at much lower levels than public schools, and still beat them academically. The reason is that public schools spend much more on administration, while the private schools spend it on education. “Well-funded” is pure bullshit. Most public schools suck up a whole lot more of our money than do private schools.

  • Rezistik
    don’t like public education that dumbs down to an agenda.

    Public schools have AP classes for the gifted students. Well funded public schools are as good or better than private. Assuming you dont have a high minority population, then forget it.

    That is why I live in a high tax area, taxes are like a filter. The bigger the filter the less shit gets through it.

    Exactly, as someone attending public schooling I can say that our schools are not the problem, society is the problem.

    I attend AP classes and have already earned college credit at the tender age of 16. I live in a low-income area and without public schooling I wouldn’t have been allowed the same education in fact I would be lucky to have any education.

  • carrick

    Or if you want one that is mostly composed of blacks, wiki the Paul Lawrence Dunbar High School in Baltimore, MD.

  • http://sayanythingblog.com/readers/entry/homosexuality_is_wrong_-_a_compendium move_zig

    At 16, being a student of war history, I was an admirer of WWI German fighter pilots and of the fighting men of the WWII Wehrmacht, Luftwaffe and Kriegsmarine. Indeed, upon attending college and Army ROTC, many of our own Armor Corps greatly admired the German Panzer troops.

    By my sophomore year I was dating a girl I would date steadily through till graduation.

    She was Jewish.

    While you can admire foreign troops for just being excellent troops, I came to understand a military cannot divorce itself from the leadership that is giving it orders. Most importantly, I understood that the Nazi regime, like all the other Statist regimes, was at its heart, centered upon hatred.

    Soviet socialism, Chinese Maoism, Radical Islam, and National Socialism, and whatever form of Statism that is practiced, are all about hatred, envy, suppression of freedom, and ultimately murder and conquest.

    Things seemed a lot more black and white back then, and now some aspects of life seem clearer (being able to recognize false arguments and such) and still yet other even more ambiguous.

    I too, was in advanced placement, and even so, it took some years to have the wisdom catch up with knowledge.

    You are judgmental now, but you do not have the data-set of knowledge to give you the wisdom to recognize what works and what does not.

    Time will tell whether you learn. Some do, others do not.

  • rbb

    Why do you hate Bristol Palin?

  • http://sayanythingblog.com robport

    I agree Gene but I also think there should be subsidy. Give the parents vouchers and let them spend it on home schooling or a school of their choice.

  • http://sayanythingblog.com robport

    Public education dumb things down because they have a monopoly and no reason not to

  • http://sayanythingblog.com robport

    I think that subsidizing education is appropriate. The question is how we do that.

    I think we need to empower parents by putting their child’s education dollars in their hands nd letting them make the best choices with it.

  • http://sayanythingblog.com robport

    That’s actually the reason I waited so long to disclose my age, fools like you use it to disregard my views.

    I was a screaming liberal when I was your age. Then I grew up. Got a job. Got married. Had some kids. Got a mortgage. And then I realized how the world really works.

    It’s natural to be liberal when you’re young, because liberalism is so superficially right. It’s only when you grow up and learn some universal truths that conservatism becomes attractive.

    Of course, some people never grow up.

  • http://sayanythingblog.com robport

    If only there were some way you could take your tax dollars and send you kids to a better scool…

  • http://sayanythingblog.com robport

    Public schools spend more money and typically under perform private schools. But you just keep paying your taxes and believing everything the political elite tells you like a good plebe. Those subsidies aren’t going to farm themselves.

  • http://sayanythingblog.com robport

    Public schools spend more money and typically under perform private schools. But you just keep paying your taxes and believing everything the political elite tells you like a good plebe. Those subsidies aren’t going to farm themselves.

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